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Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • I noted he did not take any questions from the press.
  • Did he pardon the white meat and the dark meat?

    ROFL
  • Two years ago he pardoned a turkey named Carrot. At the time he joked that Carrot was so disappointed with the election that the bird demanded a recount.

    Okay, not a joke.

    But with Trump, that is as close as you can get.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Two years ago he pardoned a turkey named Carrot. At the time he joked that Carrot was so disappointed with the election that the bird demanded a recount.

    A relevant item:
    Emily Larsen

    BREAKING: Names of the two White House turkeys this year are 'Corn' and 'Cob'

    Urban Dictionary:
    Corncob: Someone who has been brutally owned, yet insists that they are victorious in the online discourse despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. . . .

    In possibly related news:
    Dan Froomkin/PressWatchers.org

    From the WH: "On Monday, November 30 starting at 7:00AM EST the Office of the First Lady will host a preview of the 2020 holiday décor at the White House.... The First Lady will not be in attendance. "

    I'm guessing Melania is already planning her exit strategy/escape plan.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    I hope Melania does escape him--and have custody of her son.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    Audio has already been leaked of Melania saying she hates being responsible for the Christmas decorations. I'm guessing she's not bothering with the pretence this year.
  • Has there ever been a more visibly reluctant First Lady? Hilary (frankly, to my surprise) even issued a cookie recipe, though visualising her producing a batch is beyond my powers. First Lady was, I'm willing to bet, never part of Melania's life plan.
  • Melancholia suffers, poor lassie, from being such a contrast to the ebullient Michele Obama.
  • Melancholia suffers, poor lassie, from being such a contrast to the ebullient Michele Obama.
    She suffers contrasted to almost every recent first lady in that she appears to be allowed no agency.
  • Has there ever been a more visibly reluctant First Lady? Hilary (frankly, to my surprise) even issued a cookie recipe, though visualising her producing a batch is beyond my powers.

    Yeah, there are layers and layers to that story. It came out of a comment Hillary Clinton made in 1992 [video] during Bill Clinton's presidential campaign. She was getting a lot of flack from conservatives and various journalists for not being a stay-at-home mother so she said:
    I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession, which I entered before my husband was in public life.

    After she said that it got even worse and she was hounded relentlessly. She wasn't even the first prospective First Lady who'd had a professional career, but I guess most Americans regard movie actress as more of a lifestyle than a job. Seeking to put the nontroversy to rest she produced her recipe for oatmeal chocolate chip cookies and even shared a batch of them with the press pool. After that the press was nothing but kind to Hillary Clinton. [ I really miss the eyeroll emoji ] So basically it's a story about sexism, gender stereotypes, and the American political press' long-term vendetta against Hillary Clinton.

    Because when you look at it objectively it puts the American press in a bad light, it was decided that to pretend this wasn't an example of journalistic bias but a hallowed tradition, so every four years since then Family Circle magazine has featured a "First Lady Cookie Contest". Thankfully the plug was pulled on this monument to sexism in 2020. (In 2016 no one asked Bill Clinton for a recipe, but the oatmeal chocolate chip cookies were reprised and called the "Clinton family recipe".)
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Melancholia suffers, poor lassie, from being such a contrast to the ebullient Michele Obama.
    She suffers contrasted to almost every recent first lady in that she appears to be allowed no agency.

    Yes, you may have a point there...

  • Has there ever been a more visibly reluctant First Lady?

    Jane Pierce comes to mind.
  • First Lady was, I'm willing to bet, never part of Melania's life plan.

    Whilst I find First Lady to be a frankly bizarre job (why should being married to the President be a particularly relevant thing), I'll agree with you that it's rather cramped Melania's style.
  • Poor lady - losing a young son just prior to her husband's inauguration was an understandable reason for taking a back seat for a time, as it were.

    I note that the Wikipedia entry includes the word *melancholia*, BTW.

    Speaking of which, was it not remarked, at the time when her husband was seen to have won the election in 2016, that Mrs T looked as though she was about to vomit?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Whilst I find First Lady to be a frankly bizarre job (why should being married to the President be a particularly relevant thing), I'll agree with you that it's rather cramped Melania's style.

    The official function is White House hostess, someone to organize the domestic details of all the state dinners, receptions, and other social functions and ceremonial events hosted by the White House. By tradition this function has been performed by the president's wife, though this is not always the case. For example, Thomas Jefferson was widowed by the time he assumed the presidency so the duties of White House Hostess were often performed by his oldest daughter, Patsy.
  • First Lady was, I'm willing to bet, never part of Melania's life plan.

    Whilst I find First Lady to be a frankly bizarre job (why should being married to the President be a particularly relevant thing), I'll agree with you that it's rather cramped Melania's style.

    I suppose it's partly apeing the idea of the Queen consort.
  • I suppose it's partly apeing the idea of the Queen consort.

    There is a bit of that. The First Lady also usually concentrates on promoting one particular issue, usually something social and not terribly controversial. This is something else Queen consorts are supposed to do. Some past examples:
    • Betty Ford - treatment for alcohol addiction
    • Rosalynn Carter - mental health
    • Nancy Reagan - fighting drug addiction
    • Barbara Bush - childhood literacy
    • Hillary Clinton - reforming the U.S. healthcare system
    • Laura Bush - childhood education
    • Michelle Obama - children's nutrition
    • Melania Trump - bullying prevention
  • First Lady was, I'm willing to bet, never part of Melania's life plan.

    Whilst I find First Lady to be a frankly bizarre job (why should being married to the President be a particularly relevant thing), I'll agree with you that it's rather cramped Melania's style.

    I suppose it's partly apeing the idea of the Queen consort.

    I'm not so sure. I see this sort of thing hanging on in the church (well, our denom) where all unofficially BUT with 150 years history behind it, the local congregation is led by a pastor (official) and pastor's wife (if any, VERY unofficial but expected). The pastor's wife job (which many rebel against) involves the same stuff that the first lady position does--anything to do with children, education, healthcare, and community events (read: with food). And of course if you're not the right person for that sort of job, or resent it, it's vastly problematic. But when you ARE the right person and don't resent it, it can work amazingly well. As with most of the missionary couples I know, myself included.

    The idea seems to be that the job is too big for a single person to handle, and there is still something in the American psyche that wants family rather than staff-only involvement--even if that family touch is ceremonial only.
  • First Lady was, I'm willing to bet, never part of Melania's life plan.

    Whilst I find First Lady to be a frankly bizarre job (why should being married to the President be a particularly relevant thing), I'll agree with you that it's rather cramped Melania's style.

    I suppose it's partly apeing the idea of the Queen consort.

    I'm not so sure. I see this sort of thing hanging on in the church (well, our denom) where all unofficially BUT with 150 years history behind it, the local congregation is led by a pastor (official) and pastor's wife (if any, VERY unofficial but expected). The pastor's wife job (which many rebel against) involves the same stuff that the first lady position does--anything to do with children, education, healthcare, and community events (read: with food). And of course if you're not the right person for that sort of job, or resent it, it's vastly problematic. But when you ARE the right person and don't resent it, it can work amazingly well. As with most of the missionary couples I know, myself included.

    The idea seems to be that the job is too big for a single person to handle, and there is still something in the American psyche that wants family rather than staff-only involvement--even if that family touch is ceremonial only.

    Oh, believe me, pastor's/vicar's/minister's wives have been kept busy a lot longer than the last 150 years. :p
  • No doubt. The ref was to my particular denomination.
  • I can still hear the way the wife of the Vicar of the Church Of My Yoof used to intone the dread words 'Oooooh.....ALBERT!!!!', following the commission of some error of speech or action by the said Reverend Albert...
    :flushed:
  • If congregations expect to get two "employees" for a price of one poorly-paid person, they need to do some rethinking.

    (I say that as the former spouse of a clergy person.)
  • In Orthodoxy commonly the priest's wife -- who has her own job title: Matushka (slavic), Presvytera (Greek), Khouria (arabic) -- is commonly expected to be the choir director.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    If congregations expect to get two "employees" for a price of one poorly-paid person, they need to do some rethinking.

    (I say that as the former spouse of a clergy person.)

    Yeah, well, that's where some of the rub comes in.

    Though I will say that in the churches I've been in that have this habit, there is no staff and everything is volunteer-run. So it's more a case of other people's opinions on what you ought to volunteer to do (which also sucks, because what if I'm not gifted at that?).
  • (Not much Fre
    mousethief wrote: »
    In Orthodoxy commonly the priest's wife -- who has her own job title: Matushka (slavic), Presvytera (Greek), Khouria (arabic) -- is commonly expected to be the choir director.

    (I heard some amazing Orthodox choral music in Poland. I wonder if the tradition holds there. They were into some very heavy close harmony).
  • The Slavic O's have some amazing music, probably best suited to the "western" ear of all the O churches.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    In Orthodoxy commonly the priest's wife -- who has her own job title: Matushka (slavic), Presvytera (Greek), Khouria (arabic) -- is commonly expected to be the choir director.

    Wow! I'm glad that was never expected of me. I absolutely love music -- from the congregation or an audience. I'm somewhat tone deaf, however, when it comes to singing (and I have taken ear training and sight singing, to no avail). I can't imagine what a choir would sound like if I were the director!
  • mousethief wrote: »
    In Orthodoxy commonly the priest's wife -- who has her own job title: Matushka (slavic), Presvytera (Greek), Khouria (arabic) -- is commonly expected to be the choir director.
    It’s common in many (not all) African American churches for the pastor’s wife to be referred to and addressed as “First Lady.”

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    In Orthodoxy commonly the priest's wife -- who has her own job title: Matushka (slavic), Presvytera (Greek), Khouria (arabic) -- is commonly expected to be the choir director.
    It’s common in many (not all) African American churches for the pastor’s wife to be referred to and addressed as “First Lady.”

    I did not know that.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    In Orthodoxy commonly the priest's wife -- who has her own job title: Matushka (slavic), Presvytera (Greek), Khouria (arabic) -- is commonly expected to be the choir director.
    It’s common in many (not all) African American churches for the pastor’s wife to be referred to and addressed as “First Lady.”

    I did not know that.

    I only knew it because I binge-watched Greenleaf a couple of months ago (I do recommend it, hammy and melodramatic though it is).
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    In Orthodoxy commonly the priest's wife -- who has her own job title: Matushka (slavic), Presvytera (Greek), Khouria (arabic) -- is commonly expected to be the choir director.
    It’s common in many (not all) African American churches for the pastor’s wife to be referred to and addressed as “First Lady.”

    I did not know that.

    I only knew it because I binge-watched Greenleaf a couple of months ago (I do recommend it, hammy and melodramatic though it is).

    It is portraying a scene that is relentlessly hammy and melodramatic.
  • News Flash: Vladimir Putin has warned that the USA will now be controlled by Americans!
  • Michael Flynn, Trump's former National Security Advisor convicted of lying to the FBI, has received a full pardon. I'm guessing we're going to see a lot of these in the coming weeks. We could even make a game of it. Which of Trump's former associates are going to get the presidential Get Out of Jail Free card? Who's going to be left to rot?

    My guess is that Paul Manafort 35207-016 will probably get a pardon, though Trump will probably save that one until the last minute.

    Michael Cohen 86067-054 and Rick Gates 35208-016 are probably out of luck because they cooperated with investigators and Trump hates squealers.

    Thoughts?
  • The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.
  • But only Democratic-controlled states will pursue him and that can be spun as partisan justice.
  • @Gramps49, but can he pardon himself before he is convicted of a crime?
  • Receiving a presidential pardon doesn't keep you from being subpoenaed, and it does prevent you from pleading the 5th (incriminate you? you're immune to prosecution for these crimes). It also does not apply to crimes at the state level. This could be a very interesting Winter and Spring.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    @Gramps49, but can he pardon himself before he is convicted of a crime?

    Heard a guest on NPR, last week, who said T might be able to temporarily turn the presidency over to Pence; then Pence could pardon T, and turn the presidency back over to his boss. (The guest was not saying this would be a good thing!)

    Of course, would Pence give back the presidency?

    And yes, any such pardon wouldn't apply to crimes at a state or local level.
  • @Gramps49, but can he pardon himself before he is convicted of a crime?

    Who decides whether it's allowed - his Supremes? If they agreed (seems unlikely) it would discredit them for the future.

    And pardoning yourself (or getting Pence to do it) is surely an admission of guilt - which screws any future claims that he did nothing wrong, never commited any crime or ever in his life made a mistake. How could he spin it for his faithful followers?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    He could tell them he's protecting himself from those evil Democrats, 'cause they trump up ;) charges. And that faithless*/fake Republicans might join them in that.

    So it's him and his faithful followers against an evil plot in an evil world.

    *In the sense of "faithless electors", not in a religious sense.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    I think you have to have grounds (basically, president incapable of presidenting for med reasons) to make such a temporary transfer. You can't play football with the Oval Office. And a permanent transfer (resignation) would raise the question of whether Pence would in fact do as asked--at the cost of his own political future. I doubt it.
  • john holdingjohn holding Host Emeritus
    As I understand it, if T resigns then Pence becomes President. If Pence then resigns I'm not sure who follows -- the Secretary of State (and down the cabinet line) or the House Speaker? The one person who could not take over would be T, who would not be in either of whichever of those lines is the right one. Even Pence is not likely to appoint T as SofS so he could resume the White House
  • It would be the Speaker of the House. And that's not a position in the president's gift. The ambitions I referred to Pence (not) sacrificing have to do with the election of 2024--and even he must know that cooperating in such a blatant abuse of the pardon power would mean his ass is grass, even with Republicans. They want to nominate someone who might win, not be ridden out of town on a rail.
  • The one word that may prevent Trump from pardoning himself is in the clause
    and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
    US Constitution Article II, Section 2, Clause one.

    "to grant" something implies one person is giving something to another person.

    To the idea that Trump may resign and allow Pence to make the pardon that might be possible, though Pence cannot then cede the office back to Trump. After all, he resigned.


    There is one issue Trump may address is birth-right citizenship. He may try to issue an executive order saying any child born in the US whose parents are not citizens at the time of birth cannot be a citizen of the United States. Kamala Harris was born in the United States to parents who were citizens of India. Therefore, she could not be a vice president under that executive order.

    Remember Trump saying Obama was not a natural-born American citizen because his father was from Kenya? If he is trying to nullify Obama's citizenship, then my granddaughter's citizenship would be nullified as well because her father was a Filipino citizen at the time, even though she was born in Washington State.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.
    The Supreme Court doesn’t have the ability to “step in.” It only has the ability to review cases that come up to it from lower courts, so the issue of whether the president can pardon himself would have to be presented in federal district court, which only seems likely if a local United States Attorney tries to charge Trump with federal crimes. And that’s not likely unless Biden and his attorney general support it.

  • Abrogating birthright citizenship by executive order: the constitution can be revoked by executive order? News to me.

    I wouldn’t put it past the lame duck to try it, but does anyone see this holding up in court?
  • No. That's a legislative power, and in fact it might even require a constitutional amendment, IIRC.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.
    The Supreme Court doesn’t have the ability to “step in.” It only has the ability to review cases that come up to it from lower courts, so the issue of whether the president can pardon himself would have to be presented in federal district court, which only seems likely if a local United States Attorney tries to charge Trump with federal crimes. And that’s not likely unless Biden and his attorney general support it.

    Though I rather think Biden would have to, because to let such an egregious abuse of power go unchecked would be to become complicit init--and to set a horrible precedent,
  • Abrogating birthright citizenship by executive order: the constitution can be revoked by executive order? News to me.

    I wouldn’t put it past the lame duck to try it, but does anyone see this holding up in court?

    Would Melania have to move back to Slovenia? Would Barron go with her?
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    How can you give the presidency to someone? I don't understand how, constitutionally, that would work. Perhaps Pence could appoint 45 as his veep, then resign, making 45 47.
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