I was told Cister by a cousin who was in the RAF at Aston Down or Kemble, and he was told that was the pronunciation by locals in the vicinity, so not actually Ciren people.
I find that by saying one of these names in the way suggested I can tell what accent the speaker uses for other things because it isn't possible to switch my mouth into the shape of it from "normal" speech without contortions. (I'm just trying this with some American names to get back on thread, but it isn't working. I can't remember enough placenames that British speakers would automatically get wrong - Arkansas, Berkeley, Wichita?)
Everyone who speaks English speaks it differently! It's a wonder we ever understand each other at all...
The one which caught me out when I'd lived for several years in Texas, and thought I'd found all the different words, was pot holder. My Texas friend looked blank when I asked her to pass the oven gloves. I can imagine there's a few other names for these, too.
This is true, at least in my family. We have:
milk and melk
coupon as Q-pon and coo-pon
pillow and pellow
khaki as kaah-key and car-key
The evening meal as supper and dinner
The noon meal as lunch and dinner
mom (mawm) and mum
grade 6 and 6th grade
Or the evening meal as dinner or tea? I say dinner, my partner is from Liverpool and to him, the evening meal is "tea".
A good example of word evolution. In the middle ages "dinner" was the principal meal of the day, taken as early as 11-00 am. (But people often got up at 5-00 am, and only posh people had breakfast - although it became more general in the later middle ages.)
Gradually, the ruling class pushed the hour of dinner later and later. Until by the nineteeth century it was fashionable to eat in in mid-evening.
Luncheon was unknown as a word until relatively recently. (Can't quite remember exactly when, but broadly 18th or 19th century.)
Working class and northerners tend to be conservative about such important things as meal times so "dinner" remains around midday for many people.
"Tea" in the sense of a meal arose originally because of the large gap between upper class meals. Afternoon tea and "high" tea developed to fill this gap. Those who have a "dinner" at midday have a (high) tea in the early evening.
No usage is "wrong". It's just what's fashionable and what isn't.
Tea is merely a drink in all circumstances in Canada as far as I know. Though more correctly in my pedantic view, should be called "teabag". Coffee seems more popular.
It's common that children would have an "after school snack" to tide them over to supper. Usually about 4p.m. This presumes that people actually sit down to meals at all, which I'm not sure how many do.
In the city it was breakfast, lunch and dinner. At the farm it was breakfast, dinner and supper. In both places dinner was the larger meal. City was Washington D.C. farm was Virginia.
Here I think it's traditionally breakfast, dinner, and supper (though lots of people do say breakfast, lunch and dinner these days). A "lunch" is often a before-bed snack, often toast, a cup of tea, or some kind of cookie/sweet biscuit.
My daughter's boyfriend's family apparently calls this snack "bed lunch" which I have never heard before.
I had never heard of a pre-bed snack like that being called "lunch" until I got roped into serving it to the residents of St. Luke's Home in St. John's, and was puzzled to hear one of the other volunteers asking a lady if she'd enjoyed her lunch.
The only time we don't have dinner at the evening meal is on special occasions such as Christmas and possibly Sunday when we have dinner at midday or so. On those occasions the evening meal would be called tea. We certainly don't have a meal called supper - supper is a little snack such as a biscuit about 9pm which accompanies a cup of tea or coffee before bed.
The meals here are generally breakfast, lunch and supper. Traditionally, either lunch or supper might be called dinner—that term could be applied to whichever was bigger (though my daughter insists that only supper should be called dinner) and often implies a larger than usual or special meal. The exception is Sunday dinner, which is always lunch.
Sunday dinner in the middle of the day is very much a thing of the past here. It was a term used by my grandparents' generation (as was the meal), rarely in that following, and I've not heard it used in mine since I was a child.
Or the evening meal as dinner or tea? I say dinner, my partner is from Liverpool and to him, the evening meal is "tea".
A good example of word evolution. In the middle ages "dinner" was the principal meal of the day, taken as early as 11-00 am. (But people often got up at 5-00 am, and only posh people had breakfast - although it became more general in the later middle ages.)
Gradually, the ruling class pushed the hour of dinner later and later. Until by the nineteeth century it was fashionable to eat in in mid-evening.
Luncheon was unknown as a word until relatively recently. (Can't quite remember exactly when, but broadly 18th or 19th century.)
Working class and northerners tend to be conservative about such important things as meal times so "dinner" remains around midday for many people.
"Tea" in the sense of a meal arose originally because of the large gap between upper class meals. Afternoon tea and "high" tea developed to fill this gap. Those who have a "dinner" at midday have a (high) tea in the early evening.
No usage is "wrong". It's just what's fashionable and what isn't.
Yes to this. The idea of how often you eat and when has completely changed as lifestyles have changed.
English is not the only language where this has occurred. Having learned Danish, I started Swedish and it did my head in. 'Frokost' is lunch in Danish, but it's breakfast in Swedish. And then in Swedish the evening meal is 'middag' - literally meaning 'mid-day'.
Entree is indeed a stupid word for a main course that surely isn't the first in a meal that has multiple courses. Someone somewhere seemed to think since it was French it was fancy. :rolleyes:
A fascinating word, tied up with complicated terms for different courses, e.g., the releve, that is, replacement dishes. It's commonly said that entree refers to a starter in UK, (and France), but main course in US. But it could refer to roast meat in France, I think. Of course, posh people had 5 courses, so probably the terms changed, as people ate fewer courses.
I got that wrong, the point is entree wasn't the first course in England for a posh dinner. I think the order went soup, fish, entree, roast, dessert, plus cheese. So the entree could be meat, e.g., roast guinea fowl. I don't know the US derivation. But now entree is the first course, I think, but it's very posh, starter is commoner..
Thing I never got used to in North America - salad as a separate and inevitable (whether you wanted it or not) course.
I mean, I like salad. But either I eat it as a meal in itself - usually lunch - or a side to a main dish. But this You can't get to the food you want until you chomp a heap of lettuce - is just weird.
Thing I never got used to in North America - salad as a separate and inevitable (whether you wanted it or not) course.
I mean, I like salad. But either I eat it as a meal in itself - usually lunch - or a side to a main dish. But this You can't get to the food you want until you chomp a heap of lettuce - is just weird.
In my experience it's a very narrow stripe of the restaurant spectrum that has the mandatory salad any more. Down the fork a tiny bit and you get no salad at all, and up the fork only slightly you have to pay extra for it.
And you can, of course, order "no salad, please." Or get soup instead.
IMHO the reason salad comes out first (pure speculation, but hey) is because you can get it on the table instanter, whereas the entree is going to take time. And hungry people will be happier if they have something to munch on. Not everybody does appetizers.
I think it REMAINS part of the lineup because so many people are dieting and think that eating (a particular kind of) salad (in a particular way) is going to help them avoid woofing down the main course.
I'm not sure about the last bit, eating salad avoids woofing main course. Other stuff is good. I've heard the "time filler" explanation for many years.
Sunday dinner in the middle of the day is very much a thing of the past here. It was a term used by my grandparents' generation (as was the meal), rarely in that following, and I've not heard it used in mine since I was a child.
Don't you know we Americans have big Sunday dinners and eat leftovers for the rest of the week?
I'm not sure about the last bit, eating salad avoids woofing main course. Other stuff is good. I've heard the "time filler" explanation for many years.
This is the (not) Gospel I had preached to me, many a time. Feh.
I've never been to the US. Do people really eat their salad as a separate course there? It's usually seen as a vegetable to accompany the main course here, particularly in summer, though sometimes in separate individual dishes which sit next to the one with the your main course on it.
Some starters/hors d'oeuvres are also served with accompanying salad.
I've never been to the US. Do people really eat their salad as a separate course there? It's usually seen as a vegetable to accompany the main course here, particularly in summer, though sometimes in separate individual dishes which sit next to the one with the your main course on it.
Some starters/hors d'oeuvres are also served with accompanying salad.
I mean, I like salad. But either I eat it as a meal in itself - usually lunch - or a side to a main dish. But this You can't get to the food you want until you chomp a heap of lettuce - is just weird.
The first evening meal I had in the US was in a steakhouse something more than 20 years ago, when I was visiting as a baby graduate student, and we were dragged out en masse to the local steakhouse. I was really quite taken aback to be presented with half an iceberg lettuce, garnished with about a teaspoon of chopped tomato, as a prelude to the purpose of our visit.
The first evening meal I had in the US was in a steakhouse something more than 20 years ago, when I was visiting as a baby graduate student, and we were dragged out en masse to the local steakhouse. I was really quite taken aback to be presented with half an iceberg lettuce, garnished with about a teaspoon of chopped tomato, as a prelude to the purpose of our visit.
No blue cheese dressing? I thought blue cheese dressing was obligatory with a lettuce wedge.
North American steakhouses are a separate category of institution (almost its own culture, really) - everything gets treated differently there. The chunk of iceberg lettuce persists there even now. Steakhouses are not to be taken as a guide to anything.
The whole thing about salad - when in the programme, how - is odd. Perhaps it's the Italian influence in my childhood, but if I'm having it at all, I prefer it after the main as a refreshing course. Before the main, I find salads unnecessarily filling. At home, I prefer a small bit with the main. As a main itself a salad like a Niçoise, Cobb, or cold steak salad can be a fine thing.
I'm not sure about the last bit, eating salad avoids woofing main course.
Family anecdote has it that an elderly male cousin of my grandparents or some such relative was told that he had to go on a diet. So at dinner time he had salad as he was on his diet. And then he had his dinner.
There are salads and salads. Some contain all sorts of stuff and some are just a few things. Here in winter a head of lettuce or a bundle of spinach or mixed leaves can cost between $3 and $5, so a salad might not have leaves of any kind or just a few. Frozen vegetables are more affordable and usual, like peas, broccoli, green beans - do others call yellow ones wax beans?
At home salad would be at the same time as everything. The traditional diet of separate (meat and potatoes) this isn't much usual anymore. Boring. The level of meat consumption is dropping.
I'm not sure about the last bit, eating salad avoids woofing main course.
Family anecdote has it that an elderly male cousin of my grandparents or some such relative was told that he had to go on a diet. So at dinner time he had salad as he was on his diet. And then he had his dinner.
Mr Image and I visiting my southern relatives were fed many fried meals with gravy and sweet tea. We were out alone in the car at lunch time and he said, I am dying for fresh vegetables lets see what we can find." There was a large sign in front of a restaurant saying lunch time salad bar, all you can eat. "Perfect," he said. There we found chopped, ice burg lettuce, and assortment of other vegetables such as tomatoes and corn. We also found, pickles, olives, jello, cornbread and grits and gravy.
I still have strong memories of my first meal when visiting friends in California, which... I think it was my 2nd visit to the US, though the bulk of the 1st visit had been in a work environment.
We went and bought some takeaway (takeout?) Mexican. I'd just arrived and was a little jetlagged, so that might have contributed, but honestly it was so disconcerting. I knew that technically everyone was speaking English, but the questions about options with my meal were so utterly mystifying and for much of it I just copied what my friend had said beforehand, having almost no idea what I was saying.
I remember I was given a choice of a couple of different varieties of beans - black or pinto - but as neither of them was a variety I had ever heard of, the choice was not comprehensible.
Old-fashioned French people eat salad as a separate course. In my inlaws' house, it arrives as the first course of the midday meal or evening meal pretty much every day. Generally it consists of leaves, one other ingredient and vinaigrette.
My most confusing eating-out experience involving salad was in Australia. We travelled as much as we could with our kids when younger, and while they were great travellers for their age, they were not always great at adventurously trying new foods, so we often ate at familiar North American chain restaurants where we saw them, so as not to have to wrestle a 7 year old and a 9 year old into eating something they would find strange. So in Australia we found a couple of such places during our two-week visit, one of which was my daughter's favourite chain restaurant, Subway. Most of the sandwich topics looked like the ones we were used to, and we went through the line ordering in our usual way, then were totally thrown by the question, "What salads would you like?" We didn't know how to answer: we were having sandwiches, not a salad! The Australian friend we were travelling with had to explain that "salads" meant the vegetable toppings - lettuce, tomato, peppers, etc etc. I don't know if this is generally used in Australia or just in that type of chain sandwich place, but my kids (now grown) still remember that sandwich toppings were called "salads" in Australia.
Saying "sure" as we might in Canada may get corrected to "we say yes please" if you're a young Canadian 45 years ago in Australia. Also make sure not to hide things inside tent poles, and know precisely how many segments you have before leaving customs.
Mr Image and I visiting my southern relatives were fed many fried meals with gravy and sweet tea. We were out alone in the car at lunch time and he said, I am dying for fresh vegetables lets see what we can find." There was a large sign in front of a restaurant saying lunch time salad bar, all you can eat. "Perfect," he said. There we found chopped, ice burg lettuce, and assortment of other vegetables such as tomatoes and corn. We also found, pickles, olives, jello, cornbread and grits and gravy.
The reason why iced tea (always sweet) is served in the Deep South is you knew the water had been boiled. Kind of like beer in certain parts in that the water is not contaminated.
Trudy - I have never heard "salads" used in that sense - but then again, I've never bought anything from a Subway. I suspect that the usage is limited to that chain. More normal would be something along the line of "what would you like with your salad?"
My most confusing eating-out experience involving salad was in Australia. We travelled as much as we could with our kids when younger, and while they were great travellers for their age, they were not always great at adventurously trying new foods, so we often ate at familiar North American chain restaurants where we saw them, so as not to have to wrestle a 7 year old and a 9 year old into eating something they would find strange. So in Australia we found a couple of such places during our two-week visit, one of which was my daughter's favourite chain restaurant, Subway. Most of the sandwich topics looked like the ones we were used to, and we went through the line ordering in our usual way, then were totally thrown by the question, "What salads would you like?" We didn't know how to answer: we were having sandwiches, not a salad! The Australian friend we were travelling with had to explain that "salads" meant the vegetable toppings - lettuce, tomato, peppers, etc etc. I don't know if this is generally used in Australia or just in that type of chain sandwich place, but my kids (now grown) still remember that sandwich toppings were called "salads" in Australia.
Not really common, but not completely mystifying either in a context where you're choosing items to go on a sandwich. I'd certainly understand it in the Subway system where you choose a kind of bread, choose a kind of meat, then choose the other toppings.
And I don't think I'd be surprised to hear something similar in another sandwich shop where you were basically doing that, although it's so very rare these days for me to be in that situation that I can't be certain what they used to say when I did it more often.
My most confusing eating-out experience involving salad was in Australia. We travelled as much as we could with our kids when younger, and while they were great travellers for their age, they were not always great at adventurously trying new foods, so we often ate at familiar North American chain restaurants where we saw them, so as not to have to wrestle a 7 year old and a 9 year old into eating something they would find strange. So in Australia we found a couple of such places during our two-week visit, one of which was my daughter's favourite chain restaurant, Subway. Most of the sandwich topics looked like the ones we were used to, and we went through the line ordering in our usual way, then were totally thrown by the question, "What salads would you like?" We didn't know how to answer: we were having sandwiches, not a salad! The Australian friend we were travelling with had to explain that "salads" meant the vegetable toppings - lettuce, tomato, peppers, etc etc. I don't know if this is generally used in Australia or just in that type of chain sandwich place, but my kids (now grown) still remember that sandwich toppings were called "salads" in Australia.
With the order at Subway being bread and meat, what else would you call the lettuce, tomato etc put on next other than salad? Makes perfect sense to me.
Might be having a thick day but salad in the co text of Subway ( been twice in my life; never again) makes no sense to me. Lettuce, tomato etc on top of bread and meat doth not a salad make
The reason why iced tea (always sweet) is served in the Deep South is you knew the water had been boiled. Kind of like beer in certain parts in that the water is not contaminated.
Unless it is sun tea which my mother often made, be we had a deep artesian well that we trusted.
Comments
I find that by saying one of these names in the way suggested I can tell what accent the speaker uses for other things because it isn't possible to switch my mouth into the shape of it from "normal" speech without contortions. (I'm just trying this with some American names to get back on thread, but it isn't working. I can't remember enough placenames that British speakers would automatically get wrong - Arkansas, Berkeley, Wichita?)
This is true, at least in my family. We have:
milk and melk
coupon as Q-pon and coo-pon
pillow and pellow
khaki as kaah-key and car-key
The evening meal as supper and dinner
The noon meal as lunch and dinner
mom (mawm) and mum
grade 6 and 6th grade
It's tea. That's why as kids we were tortured by School Dinners, not School Lunches.
A good example of word evolution. In the middle ages "dinner" was the principal meal of the day, taken as early as 11-00 am. (But people often got up at 5-00 am, and only posh people had breakfast - although it became more general in the later middle ages.)
Gradually, the ruling class pushed the hour of dinner later and later. Until by the nineteeth century it was fashionable to eat in in mid-evening.
Luncheon was unknown as a word until relatively recently. (Can't quite remember exactly when, but broadly 18th or 19th century.)
Working class and northerners tend to be conservative about such important things as meal times so "dinner" remains around midday for many people.
"Tea" in the sense of a meal arose originally because of the large gap between upper class meals. Afternoon tea and "high" tea developed to fill this gap. Those who have a "dinner" at midday have a (high) tea in the early evening.
No usage is "wrong". It's just what's fashionable and what isn't.
It's common that children would have an "after school snack" to tide them over to supper. Usually about 4p.m. This presumes that people actually sit down to meals at all, which I'm not sure how many do.
Breakfast--something quick so they could get out into the fields.
Brunch--around 10:00--a more substantial meal which would include eggs, sausages, potatoes.
Lunch--usually early afternoon--often just a light meal
Dinner--late afternoon, usually during the heat of the day; and
Supper--mid-evening after the sun had gone down and the field-work ended.
Elevenses. 11 am
Lunch. 1 pm
Tea. 4 pm
Dinner. 7.30\8 pm
Supper. 10.30 pm
I tend to skip elevenses and Tea, but Mr F observes them. Supper for him is a milky drink, for me a savoury nibble of some sort.
My daughter's boyfriend's family apparently calls this snack "bed lunch" which I have never heard before.
Yes to this. The idea of how often you eat and when has completely changed as lifestyles have changed.
English is not the only language where this has occurred. Having learned Danish, I started Swedish and it did my head in. 'Frokost' is lunch in Danish, but it's breakfast in Swedish. And then in Swedish the evening meal is 'middag' - literally meaning 'mid-day'.
Though admittedly some of the portion sizes in expensive restaurants make them look like appetisers...
Salad eaten after main course at home. Most seem to have it before.
I mean, I like salad. But either I eat it as a meal in itself - usually lunch - or a side to a main dish. But this You can't get to the food you want until you chomp a heap of lettuce - is just weird.
In my experience it's a very narrow stripe of the restaurant spectrum that has the mandatory salad any more. Down the fork a tiny bit and you get no salad at all, and up the fork only slightly you have to pay extra for it.
IMHO the reason salad comes out first (pure speculation, but hey) is because you can get it on the table instanter, whereas the entree is going to take time. And hungry people will be happier if they have something to munch on. Not everybody does appetizers.
I think it REMAINS part of the lineup because so many people are dieting and think that eating (a particular kind of) salad (in a particular way) is going to help them avoid woofing down the main course.
I may be wrong.
Don't you know we Americans have big Sunday dinners and eat leftovers for the rest of the week?
Not really,
This is the (not) Gospel I had preached to me, many a time. Feh.
Some starters/hors d'oeuvres are also served with accompanying salad.
Only in restaurants.
The first evening meal I had in the US was in a steakhouse something more than 20 years ago, when I was visiting as a baby graduate student, and we were dragged out en masse to the local steakhouse. I was really quite taken aback to be presented with half an iceberg lettuce, garnished with about a teaspoon of chopped tomato, as a prelude to the purpose of our visit.
The whole thing about salad - when in the programme, how - is odd. Perhaps it's the Italian influence in my childhood, but if I'm having it at all, I prefer it after the main as a refreshing course. Before the main, I find salads unnecessarily filling. At home, I prefer a small bit with the main. As a main itself a salad like a Niçoise, Cobb, or cold steak salad can be a fine thing.
At home salad would be at the same time as everything. The traditional diet of separate (meat and potatoes) this isn't much usual anymore. Boring. The level of meat consumption is dropping.
Did he lose weight? Asking for a friend.
We went and bought some takeaway (takeout?) Mexican. I'd just arrived and was a little jetlagged, so that might have contributed, but honestly it was so disconcerting. I knew that technically everyone was speaking English, but the questions about options with my meal were so utterly mystifying and for much of it I just copied what my friend had said beforehand, having almost no idea what I was saying.
I remember I was given a choice of a couple of different varieties of beans - black or pinto - but as neither of them was a variety I had ever heard of, the choice was not comprehensible.
The reason why iced tea (always sweet) is served in the Deep South is you knew the water had been boiled. Kind of like beer in certain parts in that the water is not contaminated.
Not really common, but not completely mystifying either in a context where you're choosing items to go on a sandwich. I'd certainly understand it in the Subway system where you choose a kind of bread, choose a kind of meat, then choose the other toppings.
And I don't think I'd be surprised to hear something similar in another sandwich shop where you were basically doing that, although it's so very rare these days for me to be in that situation that I can't be certain what they used to say when I did it more often.
With the order at Subway being bread and meat, what else would you call the lettuce, tomato etc put on next other than salad? Makes perfect sense to me.