Fucking Guns

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  • thanks, and oh dear...
  • Here is an article from the Wichita Eagle about the race for Governor, mostly about the Democrats. Two things I found interesting and which people might like to discuss.

    Kris Kobach, a Republican candidate for Governor, is driving around local towns in a open-air vehicle with a replica 'bloody big machine gun' (not the technical term for the vehicle or the gun - is that a jeep or a kit car?). I have seen Kobach on Planet America I think, and while a pro-NRA Republican is always going to sound like he is putting really strange positions to Australian ears, he struck me as someone who was a great speaker and interviewee and perhaps destined for great things.

    Second, there's this:
    Republicans — especially primary voters — typically agree more on the issue of guns than Democrats, according to Miller. It could be politically dangerous for a Republican candidate for governor to use language that appears conciliatory on guns, he said, because of the large role the National Rifle Association plays in primaries.

    And although some Republicans do support gun restrictions, such as a ban on assault weapons, they’re aren’t typical Republican primary voters, who tend to be more conservative than the party as a whole, Miller said.

    Is the italicised portion true? Is it particularly Kansas, or is it true for other parts of the country as well?
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    A new mass shooting, in a Maryland newspaper newsroom. Dead, injured, the shooter in custody, no word yet on motive.

    I am so sick and tired of this.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Link.

    Time to re-set the "Now Is Not the Time" clock.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    I don't know whether this one belongs here or on the Aging Parents thread.

    There is something very sad and very pathetic about a 92 year old woman carrying two loaded pistols around in the pockets of her robe. Even more sad and more pathetic that she then uses one of them to shoot and kill her son in order to keep him from putting her in an assisted living facility.

    The irony of it is that she'll be in assisted living now, but not at the comfort level that she (or her son) might have hoped.
  • Can one open carry in an aged care facility in the United States? I suppose the answer depends on the state. If you can't, then you'd have no choice but to keep the gun in your pocketses. I mean, surely you can HAVE a loaded gun as a resident of an aged care facility....
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    edited July 2018
    I believe the woman was living with her son and his girlfriend. She hadn't gone into assisted living yet.

    I don't know, but I can't imagine an aged care facility where residents were permitted to carry guns. "What do you mean, you can't give me a bath now? Take that, you young whippersnapper!" Bang bang!
  • exactly. It'd be the O.K. Corral every day!! :smiley:

    But you know, second amendment rights and all that... :disappointed:
  • OK I did a quick internet search and found:

    This article, which seems to be talking about ways to sell weapons to elderly people, including for those with limited manual dexterity.

    This blog on nursing homes in California, a known hippy state, where they feel it necessary to explain in detail why they won't let guns into their facility.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    ... The irony is that she'll be in assisted living now, but not at the comfort level that she (or her son) might have hoped.
    I was thinking that.

    I wonder if she has any other children - at least they won't have to worry about her "assisted living" eating up their inheritance! :naughty:
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    And now we have an off-duty cop shooting someone in the face, planting evidence on the wounded man, and then removing the evidence when he realized a camera was trained on them. Apparently the two were acquainted and were arguing over a woman.

    According to the story linked to, the cop has been stripped of his badge and gun. Rightly so.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    ..... reduced access to firearms ....
    But then how do I put food on the table?

    OMG! That made my day! :grin:
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Meanwhile, on this side of the pond, the Edinburgh armed response unit has had its collective wrist slapped: https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-45098172
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Jane R wrote: »
    Meanwhile, on this side of the pond, the Edinburgh armed response unit has had its collective wrist slapped: https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-45098172

    Welcome to America on the Firth of Forth.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    At least they didn't kill anybody ...
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    And the officers in question have been ordered to apologise, Police Scotland are reviewing their procedures, heads may roll... if they ever find out who was responsible for the misleading phone calls, they will probably charge him with wasting police time. At the very least.

    Does anything like that ever happen in the USA? Not the overreaction... the apologising afterwards?
  • Jane R wrote: »
    And the officers in question have been ordered to apologise, Police Scotland are reviewing their procedures, heads may roll... if they ever find out who was responsible for the misleading phone calls, they will probably charge him with wasting police time. At the very least.

    Does anything like that ever happen in the USA? Not the overreaction... the apologising afterwards?
    Rarely, from what I’ve seen. And the admission of wrong is harder fought to gain.

  • And again:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-27/mass-shooting-at-florida-video-game-tournament/10167626

    If I'm tired of, and heart-broken at, waking up to these stories on the other side of the ocean, I can't imagine how you all feel. I'm so sorry.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host, 8th Day Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Can one open carry in an aged care facility in the United States? I suppose the answer depends on the state.

    As part of her job, Daughter-Unit sometimes assists the Elder Care Professional at her work place. They've been dealing with an elderly woman who is no longer competent to handle any of her affairs. Last week, they were doing inventory of the woman's possessions, including her room in the care facility where she had been living.

    D-U and the ECP, found two handguns in the room, and I believe one was loaded. To make it even scarier, they found several hand written notes threatening violence to the person she thought was watching her and going through her books. <eek!!>

    I doubt the care facility had any idea at all that the elderly woman had guns in her room!!! The guns were handed over to the sheriff's department.
  • Oh my God, Judy!

    My Dad was in a high care dementia unit for the last year of his life. He and another bloke came to blows on at least one occasion... Plus, you don't have to have dementia to be confused!

    [further expressions of horror]
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    edited September 2018
    Just when I thought there was nothing really new to add to this thread: officer-goes-home-to-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside

    Oh dear God. The poor man seems like such a beautiful person, too. Go ahead and say it Mousetheif, "Sitting in his own home while black."

    Wouldn't you think that before she noticed a strange man sitting on the sofa she would have noticed -- that was not her sofa, not her shoes inside the front door, not her carpet, not her wall color, not her umbrella. How do you not know this is not your home?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    I hate to be practical at a time like this, but (1) The door was unlocked? (2) She didn't recognize that the furnishings/decor/layout/etc. weren't hers?
  • The door being unlocked is not relevant any more than getting raped supposedly because of what you're wearing is. Deadly, stupid, go to jail, don't get out.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    I'm not saying it is relevant. But no one, especially in a big city such as Dallas, leaves the door unlocked when at home.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    Huh? I often don't have the door locked when I'm at home. More than half the year I have the front door standing open with just the screen door closed when I'm home. And since the lock on the screen door is complete crap - if you jiggle the knob enough you can get the locked door open - I don't really bother with it.
  • I share Amanda B's bewilderment over the unlocked door. I currently live in a house and our door is sometimes unlocked during the day, but when I lived in apartments in the city I don't even think it was possible to leave the door unlocked -- hence the need to take keys along to the laundry room down the hall. The doors were big and heavy, would swing shut, and automatically locked when shut.

    I can't quit thinking about it! She had just got off work so she couldn't have been drunk. Did she take the elevator to the wrong floor? Was it dark inside the apartment except for TV light? What it comes down to is too many people have guns and too many gun owners are ridiculously trigger happy!
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    I once lived in an apartment where someone tried to get in using their key. I was in bed asleep, and the sound of the key jiggling in the lock woke me up. So it happens. (They failed.)

    If I understand the (rather scanty) news coverage of the Dallas incident, the building is one of those new-fangled places where door locks are opened not by keys, but by an electronic fob. I suppose it is possible that the fob to more than one apartment is coded with the same code. My car uses one of those fobs too. I was once able (accidentally) to get into someone else's car of the same make, model, year and color using my fob.

    But by the same token, many years ago before fobs were even a twinkle in some inventor's eye, I locked myself out of my car and was able to get in by borrowing the key of a friend who had a car of the identical make, model and year (but different color this time).

    There's more to this story than we know. But I'm still puzzled as to why the cop didn't recognize that the decor and furnishings weren't hers. Unless they both lived in furnished apartments that were identically furnished.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    Just when I thought there was nothing really new to add to this thread: officer-goes-home-to-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside

    Oh dear God. The poor man seems like such a beautiful person, too. Go ahead and say it Mousetheif, "Sitting in his own home while black."

    Wouldn't you think that before she noticed a strange man sitting on the sofa she would have noticed -- that was not her sofa, not her shoes inside the front door, not her carpet, not her wall color, not her umbrella. How do you not know this is not your home?

    Murder with an oh-so-convenient excuse?

  • "Boogie wrote: »
    Murder with an oh-so-convenient excuse?
    It's possible.

    What happened to her police training? Let's say it was her apartment and she had walked in on a burglary; she still shouldn't have shot without asking him to halt and put up his hands. It seems like she was a "shoot first, ask questions later," sort of cop who would have done something like this sooner or later.
  • We don't have a lock on our back sliding door and only lock the front door when tradesmen and pet minders are visiting when we are out. The laundry door to the outside has a working lock I think... People seem to be uncomfortable about just walking into our house. We have two quite small dogs and one of them is quite aggressive, the other very loud (PBGV)
  • There is no suggestion in what I have read that it was "shoot first, ask questions later" because there is no detail available at all. Was there a conversation or an arguement? I don't know. If the events do become public knowledge then people can judge. Of course, the only living witness is the officer.
  • The Rogue wrote: »
    Was there a conversation or an arguement? I don't know. If the events do become public knowledge then people can judge. Of course, the only living witness is the officer.
    What conversation do you have in mind that would justify entering a man's home, uninvited, and shooting him?

  • I can't think of anything that justifies shooting someone in their own home like this. Nor can I see anything that suggests the police office shot first and asked questions later.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    But if she had asked questions first, surely she would have been satisfied enough by the answers not to draw her gun.
  • I think it's very much suggested by the fact that the man is dead and she admits to shooting him.

    If she had asked questions first, such as, "What are you doing here?" He most likely would have answered something like, " What do you mean? This is my house!" After which she would have looked around, realized he was right, then probably apologized and left. If as you suggest, she did ask questions first and still decided to shoot him, knowing it was his apartment and she was trespassing, then I would think that made her actions even worse.

  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    What I want to know is why she was in uniform when she wasn't on duty. Cops leave their uniforms in lockers at work; they don't wear them home.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Do not read the following as an excuse, but rather an observation.

    This officer's reaction sounds like one of fear. Fear is the mind-killer, that lets stupid things happen. As a female police officer, she might have been subjected to a lot of intimidation beyond the typical police officer usually faces. The litany of terrifyingly specific threats she has endured may have taken root, and is what she's worrying about every time she goes home - and not what her furnishings look like.

    Frightened police officers being one of the roots of our current scourge of police violence is something to consider addressing.
  • Nice post Rook. I think you might be on to something. Is it a training issue, managing your fear?

    On another issue, it looks like I have got away clean with posting a video of a cute puppy on a hell thread.
  • I recall an interesting conversation I had with a car service driver, with some police experience in his native Uganda, who felt that people who were extremely afraid to die should not be police officers. The fear gets in the way of good decisions.
    ___________________
    * A cyclist on the information bikepath
    * AKA Fafnir the Thurifer
  • I definitely agree with Rook that fear is probably at the back of this sort of shooting, I certainly don't think she had any premeditated intention to kill an innocent man. I just think that nervous, fearful people probably shouldn't be carrying guns. But then I think most people probably shouldn't be carrying guns.
  • The WP spent a year collecting stats on children exposed to gun violence at schools.

    This is the result.

    And a median shooter age of 16. This may sound like I'm excusing them, but I'm not (or trying not to), but what are we doing, or not doing, to our children that turning to gun violence is their only recourse.
  • Given the sheer numbers of ordinary citizens who (depending on the state) are walking around both armed and pissed off (or under the influence of drugs or alcohol), I think cops -- male, female, experienced, inexperienced -- have reason to be afraid.

    I live in a state which has a low rate of gun violence. That said, it's also a state where almost anybody who's of age can drop by their local Wal-Mart or gun store or gun sale and purchase just about any type of firearm in stock. You need the money, of course, and proof of age, but that's about it. Once purchased, you're free to carry your weapon in plain sight or carry it concealed on your person. Years back, you had to see your local police chief and get his/her blessing in the form of a permit, but no more. You don't need a license or permit. Training in the firearm's use is recommended, not required. If you shop for your weapons at gun sales like the one I saw advertised for tomorrow on the sign outside our local Big Even venue, you won't even need a background check.

    I have students who sign up to be trained as cops. It's a 2-year program. If you want to remain in-state, you will likely go to work for a small town government which offers crap pay and sketchy benefits and provides you with ancient equipment and cruiser and no backup except for the staties. Your "beat" will cover endless miles of rural roads inhabited by a fair number of oddballs, a smattering of high, joy-riding teenagers, and the occasional seriously deranged nutcase, and most of them will have access to weapons or be carrying them. I sometimes wonder how many of these student will survive their 20 years to pension.

  • Climacus wrote: »
    The WP spent a year collecting stats on children exposed to gun violence at schools.

    This is the result.

    And a median shooter age of 16. This may sound like I'm excusing them, but I'm not (or trying not to), but what are we doing, or not doing, to our children that turning to gun violence is their only recourse.
    Not their only recourse. Maybe not even their first recourse. The one that gets noticed. Not a recourse they would turn to at all, if they couldn't get their hands on a gun.
  • Good points. Thank you.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Not their only recourse. Maybe not even their first recourse. The one that gets noticed. Not a recourse they would turn to at all, if they couldn't get their hands on a gun.
    I think that's the point that stands out most in this long thread. Tangents aside, most of the links we attach here have an underlying question of "Were did that gun come from?" The toddler got the gun from his mother's purse, the school shooter took the guns from his mother's cabinet, the depressed teen took his father's gun, the nervous police person, whether it be our recent police woman or the fearful police men who shot the man talking on the phone in his grandmother's back yard, were all using that handy gun on their hips.

    Ohher is right that the police in our country must carry guns because everyone else seems to carry them, but if we got the civilian number way down then the police wouldn't be so jittery and eventually even they might be able to leave their guns back at the station most of the time.

    Today's news says our police shooter of the moment did not use her key (or fob) to enter the man's apartment. He heard her fumbling and opened the door to her.

  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    Big mistake. Peep through the peephole or ask "Who is it, please?" Never open the door to someone unknown.
  • Big mistake. Peep through the peephole or ask "Who is it, please?" Never open the door to someone unknown.

    or your neighbour
  • Big mistake. Peep through the peephole or ask "Who is it, please?" Never open the door to someone unknown.
    He might well have looked through, seen a cop and opened it because it was a cop. Not being an American, he mightn't have realised that is not a safe thing to do for a black man.
  • RooK wrote: »
    Do not read the following as an excuse, but rather an observation.

    This officer's reaction sounds like one of fear. Fear is the mind-killer, that lets stupid things happen. As a female police officer, she might have been subjected to a lot of intimidation beyond the typical police officer usually faces. The litany of terrifyingly specific threats she has endured may have taken root, and is what she's worrying about every time she goes home - and not what her furnishings look like.

    Frightened police officers being one of the roots of our current scourge of police violence is something to consider addressing.
    And police have a habit of fearing black men more than other groups. There is little actual information on the events other than the mistaken apt and the shooting. It is well possible that no malice was involved. Perhaps whoever opened that door would have been shot, even were it a white woman. However, given the narrative about race in America, it is difficult to believe that it has no part in this.
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