Indeed. After all, Emperor Joseph II allegedly criticised Mozart for having "Too many notes". And J S Bach's employers at Leipzig didn't like the "weird tones" and harmonies he put into the chorales.
At least Herr Mozart probably put the notes in the right order.
He certainly did for the Mass setting we had at our Cathedral this morning, it was beautiful 😍
His Masses always strike me as being entirely devoid of religious content - entirely secular.
I'm not a musician so please excuse me if I'm being stupid but do you mean the actual music? When I said Mass setting I meant the music for the words of the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei which are by nature religious and which are for me spiritually uplifting.
I found the music this morning joyful and beautiful but I can see that settings by other composers could be experienced as more spiritually uplifting.
Indeed. After all, Emperor Joseph II allegedly criticised Mozart for having "Too many notes".
I must confess I often share the emperor’s feeling. Outside a few exceptions—notably Die Zauberflöte (“The Magic Flute”)—I get bored by Mozart pretty quickly.
I know, I know.
Today, we had:
“O Splendor of God’s Glory Bright”/PUER NOBIS NASCITUR
“Heaven Shall Not Wait”/HEAVEN SHALL NOT WAIT
“Every Time I Feel the Spirit”
“I Depend upon Your Faithfulness” (Tu fidelidad)/TU FIDELIDAD
“As the Wind Song”/WAIRUA TAPU
Indeed. After all, Emperor Joseph II allegedly criticised Mozart for having "Too many notes". And J S Bach's employers at Leipzig didn't like the "weird tones" and harmonies he put into the chorales.
At least Herr Mozart probably put the notes in the right order.
He certainly did for the Mass setting we had at our Cathedral this morning, it was beautiful 😍
His Masses always strike me as being entirely devoid of religious content - entirely secular.
Our secondary school headmaster was obsessed with mozart and has sadly put me off for life.
Herr Bach (J.S.) on the other hand is my G.
We had strength will rise and in christ alone and an aborted attempt as something in 6/8 which the words went wrong fir on the screen today.
I had fun playing the Riff/instrumental bit of in christ alone as if I was gary moore.
A bit Pentecost adjacent in choice perhaps
It looks as if we were the only church to sing "She sits like a bird" (Enemy of Apathy), my all-time favourite hymn about the Spirit, by John Bell. (We sang some more ordinary Pentecost hymns as well)
It looks as if we were the only church to sing "She sits like a bird" (Enemy of Apathy), my all-time favourite hymn about the Spirit, by John Bell. (We sang some more ordinary Pentecost hymns as well)
Thanks, @Bishop's Finger, hadn't heard that one. Both based on the fact that "ruah" (sorry can't write Hebrew) is feminine. I know "spiritus" is masculine and "pneuma" neuter, but all genders seem equally appropriate.
Thanks, @Bishop's Finger, hadn't heard that one. Both based on the fact that "ruah" (sorry can't write Hebrew) is feminine. I know "spiritus" is masculine and "pneuma" neuter, but all genders seem equally appropriate.
Indeed they do!
I'm not sure if Gordon Light's hymn is well-known in this country - he's an Anglican bishop in Canada, born in 1944 and now retired. The hymn was written in 1985, and has been translated into other languages.
I feel I must confess that when I first read this, I thought “I didn’t know Gordon Lightfoot wrote anything Pentecost-related!”
Thanks for the links! Since some may not be familiar with the last hymn I listed above, and since it’s one of my favorite Spirit/Pentecost hymns, I’ll provide a link to it: “As the Wind Song.”
It looks as if we were the only church to sing "She sits like a bird" (Enemy of Apathy), my all-time favourite hymn about the Spirit, by John Bell. (We sang some more ordinary Pentecost hymns as well)
We've sung it a few times, but not this week. I like it.
Since some may not be familiar with the last hymn I listed above, and since it’s one of my favorite Spirit/Pentecost hymns, I’ll provide a link to it: “As the Wind Song.”
I don't know what was sung. I am the only musician at our church and stayed away as I have ans RSV infection and didn't wish to share it. Can only guess there were DVD's!
There is an interesting blog post from Father Trevor Thurston-Smith entitled Hymns: Entering The Minefield
His piece concludes, I'm sure that by now some of my readers will be disagreeing with much of what I've written, and that actually proves my point - that hymns are very emotive and potentially dangerous, and they can lead to very polarised opinions and heated discussions. There is a need, therefore, for clergy, church musicians and congregations alike to realise that hymnody is a more complex area of church life than we might sometimes imagine, and that the lot of the hymn selector and church musician alike is not always an easy one. There is a need too, as in so many areas of the Christian life, to approach the subject sensitively and charitably.
I read it yesterday and thought it was a very helpful post. I liked his comment: "Those of us tasked with choosing [hymns] must set aside our personal preferences and prejudices whilst nevertheless being vigilant against both heresy and theological doggerel (both of which are found to some degree in all hymn books, ancient and modern alike.) " I certainly have chosen pieces which I personally dislike but I know will 'strike a chord' in members of the congregation.
It does help if clergy and musician(s) have a good co-operative relationship and can constructively 'bat ideas around' before arriving at the final choice.
Trinity Sunday (and Father's Day ) at Our Place tomorrow:
O Lord my God (How Great Thou Art)
Something from The Sheet Our Father (traditional Caribbean melody) Holy, holy, holy! Lord God almighty (Nicaea)
Something from The Sheet - probably Onward, Christian families, sing a happy song (St Gertrude)
We're having:
Holy Holy Holy
When I survey
I bind unto myself today (ST PATRICK & GARTAN; I requested this so have recorded in 4 part harmony. Unfortunately CH4 has only the abridged version so just 5½ verses, and skipping a lot of the fun bits)
How shall I sing that majesty
Angel voices ever singing
Our 9 o'clock communion was influenced by a combination of Trinity Sunday (our Patronal Festival) and Fathers' Day. We sang:
Father of Heaven, Whose Love Profound / RIVAULX
All My Hope on God is Founded / MICHAEL
Father, I place into your hands (Jenny Hewer)
Jesus, you are here with me, Jesus you are all I need Jesus said that if I thirst I should come to him Who breaks the power of sin and darkness (This is amazing grace, this is unfailing love) Spirit of the living God (Fill me anew) There's nothing worth more (Holy Spirit, you are welcome here) Thou my everlasting portion - a new one to me
Trinity Sunday at St Pete's (not that you'd have noticed by the hymns):
O Lord my God - How Great Thou Art I am a new creation - Dave Bilborough Jesus shall reign - Truro I'm accepted, I'm forgiven - Rob Hayward Be thou my guardian and my guide - Abridge
I was serving, so I didn't have to sing all of it ...
I did. Once...as for following Julie, the less said, the better...
Our Place had this selection:
O Lord my God (How Great Thou Art)
This hymn by +Geoffrey Rowell, a former Bishop in Europe, and a good friend of Madam Sacristan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF15pDx-knA
Caribbean Lord's Prayer Holy, holy, holy (Nicaea) Onward, Christian families, sing a happy song (St Gertrude)
Madam S says she sang the final hymn (which is Egregious Tosh) through gritted teeth. FatherInCharge is a great devotee of St Hallmark, and we must be the only Place in England that offers a Grand Valentine's Day Jumble Sale every February. I kid you not.
Attendance was very low, because Father's Day, maybe, though we now have almost no *proper* Christian families™ (working Dad, housewife Mum, and two or three lovely Children). None of our Indian students were in church, either - we have about a dozen who attend frequently, if not all of them every week - but the air tragedy in India may well have something to do with their absence. AFAIK, they're mostly from Kerala, rather than Gujarat, but Indian people of all faiths (or none) are showing much solidarity at the moment.
I don't know the Rowell hymn (and singing it to Blaenwern is probably Outrage this side of the Severn), but at least it doesn't repeat the common solecism of "Creator, Redeemer and Spirit". I can understand - but disagree with - the motive behind not wishing to call God "Father"; but I believe that the entire Trinity was involved in the work of creation.
Trinity Sunday at St Pete's (not that you'd have noticed by the hymns):
O Lord my God - How Great Thou Art I am a new creation - Dave Bilborough Jesus shall reign - Truro I'm accepted, I'm forgiven - Rob Hayward Be thou my guardian and my guide - Abridge
I was serving, so I didn't have to sing all of it ...
Just noticed this. A reasonable selection in its own way, but not especially Trinitarian, as you say. Odd, given the number of suitable hymns that exist.
You might have enjoyed the Mass at Uppsala Cathedral today, which included the ordination of a fair number of priests and deacons. They had a nice Swedish Trinitarian hymn to start with, and later on the choir sang O lux, beata Trinitas by Thomas Tallis. During the ordination, a lovely hymn - How does my life become a YES to you? - was sung to Ken Naylor's Coe Fen. It scans better in Swedish.
BTW, did any of you sing (or say) the Athanasian Creed today? FatherinCharge and Madam Sacristan said it at BCP Mattins, but I don't think anyone else was there (not even the angels, to whom it must be equally incomprehensible).
We had a fairly standard set of (mostly rather boring IMO) hymns suitable for Trinity Sunday
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty
Thou whose almighty word
Come down, O Love Divine
We give immortal praise
God of grace and God of glory
Lots of people were away so we didn't have a choir, so I sat in the congregation, quite near the front. Afterwards our organist told me he had heard me singing alto, which surprised me due to the distance away and loudness of the organ. Also because, not being in the choir seats, I didn't have a music copy of the hymns to hand, so I was making up the alto part as I went along ... he seemed to think it agreed with what he was playing anyway!! -)
Our first Sunday outside for the summer, so slightly abridged musically.
Holy, Holy, Holy (Nicaea)
Celtic Alleluia (O'Carroll/Walker)
Holy Father, Great Creator (Regent Square)
Come Join the Dance of Trinity (Flight of the Earls)
BTW, did any of you sing (or say) the Athanasian Creed today? FatherinCharge and Madam Sacristan said it at BCP Mattins, but I don't think anyone else was there (not even the angels, to whom it must be equally incomprehensible).
I remember a minister starting his Trinity Sunday sermon by saying he had thought about reciting the Athanasian Creed to us, but decided it would probably send everyone to sleep even sooner than his sermons usually do!
BTW, did any of you sing (or say) the Athanasian Creed today? FatherinCharge and Madam Sacristan said it at BCP Mattins, but I don't think anyone else was there (not even the angels, to whom it must be equally incomprehensible).
I remember a minister starting his Trinity Sunday sermon by saying he had thought about reciting the Athanasian Creed to us, but decided it would probably send everyone to sleep even sooner than his sermons usually do!
Our Place once had a Visiting Priest who did recite the Athanasian Creed as his sermon on Trinity Sunday
There were a couple of visitors present. We never saw them again.
(To be fair, that priest - a good friend to us - usually gave a short, but succinct, homily, based on the Gospel).
Comments
I'm not a musician so please excuse me if I'm being stupid but do you mean the actual music? When I said Mass setting I meant the music for the words of the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei which are by nature religious and which are for me spiritually uplifting.
I found the music this morning joyful and beautiful but I can see that settings by other composers could be experienced as more spiritually uplifting.
I know, I know.
Today, we had:
“O Splendor of God’s Glory Bright”/PUER NOBIS NASCITUR
“Heaven Shall Not Wait”/HEAVEN SHALL NOT WAIT
“Every Time I Feel the Spirit”
“I Depend upon Your Faithfulness” (Tu fidelidad)/TU FIDELIDAD
“As the Wind Song”/WAIRUA TAPU
This morning was Mozart Spatzenmesse + Grayston Ives Listen Sweet Dove
Evensong was Sumsion in G (love it!), with Sumsion Responses + Rutter 'I will sing with the Spirit'
Usual hymn choices for MOR church IIRC. Come down, Love Divine, etc.
Highlights? Love the Sumsion in G Magnificat, makes me think of Hannah dancing with joy. And I love Spatzenmesse, even though it's a bit silly.
In between I was listening to Batten's 4th service - never sung it, would like to. I like that medieval solo then tutti thingy.
Cheers
Heron
Our secondary school headmaster was obsessed with mozart and has sadly put me off for life.
Herr Bach (J.S.) on the other hand is my G.
We had strength will rise and in christ alone and an aborted attempt as something in 6/8 which the words went wrong fir on the screen today.
I had fun playing the Riff/instrumental bit of in christ alone as if I was gary moore.
A bit Pentecost adjacent in choice perhaps
It's a new one to me - here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPb5gO8ASvM
A lovely hymn, though some might find the theology a bit radical...
On similar lines, here's Gordon Light's She comes sailing on the wind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuuTVEY3Cg
Indeed they do!
I'm not sure if Gordon Light's hymn is well-known in this country - he's an Anglican bishop in Canada, born in 1944 and now retired. The hymn was written in 1985, and has been translated into other languages.
Thanks for the links! Since some may not be familiar with the last hymn I listed above, and since it’s one of my favorite Spirit/Pentecost hymns, I’ll provide a link to it: “As the Wind Song.”
Hail thee, festival day (SALVA FESTA DIES)
Come down, O Love divine (DOWN AMPNEY)
Holy spirit, ever living (ABBOT'S LEIGH)
Sweet, sweet spirit
A good mix, I think.
We've sung it a few times, but not this week. I like it.
These are lovely, and new to me. Thank you.
Hopefully, anything Your Place sang to the accompaniment of DVDs (or CDs?) was appropriately Pentecostal IYSWIM.
His piece concludes,
I'm sure that by now some of my readers will be disagreeing with much of what I've written, and that actually proves my point - that hymns are very emotive and potentially dangerous, and they can lead to very polarised opinions and heated discussions. There is a need, therefore, for clergy, church musicians and congregations alike to realise that hymnody is a more complex area of church life than we might sometimes imagine, and that the lot of the hymn selector and church musician alike is not always an easy one. There is a need too, as in so many areas of the Christian life, to approach the subject sensitively and charitably.
It does help if clergy and musician(s) have a good co-operative relationship and can constructively 'bat ideas around' before arriving at the final choice.
O Lord my God (How Great Thou Art)
Something from The Sheet
Our Father (traditional Caribbean melody)
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God almighty (Nicaea)
Something from The Sheet - probably Onward, Christian families, sing a happy song (St Gertrude)
Hehe...yes - I updated our website this evening, having had the weekly email from FatherinCharge, instead of doing it tomorrow.
“Father, whose mighty word” - Moscow.
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord” - Anon.
“Spirit of God, unseen as the wind” - Skye Boat Song.
“Holy Spirit, Truth divine” - Buckland.
“Come, Holy Spirit, come!” - Diademata.
“Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!” - Nicaea.
Holy Holy Holy
When I survey
I bind unto myself today (ST PATRICK & GARTAN; I requested this so have recorded in 4 part harmony. Unfortunately CH4 has only the abridged version so just 5½ verses, and skipping a lot of the fun bits)
How shall I sing that majesty
Angel voices ever singing
It's still pretty common in RC places and always appears in RC hymn books. "Firmly I believe and truly God is three and God is one... "
Father of Heaven, Whose Love Profound / RIVAULX
All My Hope on God is Founded / MICHAEL
Father, I place into your hands (Jenny Hewer)
It's in Complete Anglican Hymns Old And New (the Orange Book), complete with the verse about holding the Church's teachings as God's own...
We've had it at Our Place from time to time, usually to the tune Shipston, but not today. Today is a Feast of St Hallmark, after all.
Very familiar if you're familiar with The Dream of Gerontius.
Bit of a double whammy, as the visiting preacher also did a "turn to the person next to you" thing, which should be punishable by death.
I'm not although I have heard it.
Jesus, you are here with me, Jesus you are all I need
Jesus said that if I thirst I should come to him
Who breaks the power of sin and darkness (This is amazing grace, this is unfailing love)
Spirit of the living God (Fill me anew)
There's nothing worth more (Holy Spirit, you are welcome here)
Thou my everlasting portion - a new one to me
Excuse my ignorance, but who's Julie?
Trinity Sunday at St Pete's (not that you'd have noticed by the hymns):
O Lord my God - How Great Thou Art
I am a new creation - Dave Bilborough
Jesus shall reign - Truro
I'm accepted, I'm forgiven - Rob Hayward
Be thou my guardian and my guide - Abridge
I was serving, so I didn't have to sing all of it ...
Firmly I believe and truly
God is Three and God is One;
and I next acknowledge duly
manhood taken by the Son.
The more well known (to me) occurrence is in the final verse of O Jesus I have promised where my hope is to follow duly (Julie)...
Or stay in with Geoffrey (an elderly member of the congregation where I grew up was named Joy, and was married to Geoffrey).
I did. Once...as for following Julie, the less said, the better...
Our Place had this selection:
O Lord my God (How Great Thou Art)
This hymn by +Geoffrey Rowell, a former Bishop in Europe, and a good friend of Madam Sacristan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF15pDx-knA
Caribbean Lord's Prayer
Holy, holy, holy (Nicaea)
Onward, Christian families, sing a happy song (St Gertrude)
Madam S says she sang the final hymn (which is Egregious Tosh) through gritted teeth. FatherInCharge is a great devotee of St Hallmark, and we must be the only Place in England that offers a Grand Valentine's Day Jumble Sale every February. I kid you not.
Attendance was very low, because Father's Day, maybe, though we now have almost no *proper* Christian families™ (working Dad, housewife Mum, and two or three lovely Children). None of our Indian students were in church, either - we have about a dozen who attend frequently, if not all of them every week - but the air tragedy in India may well have something to do with their absence. AFAIK, they're mostly from Kerala, rather than Gujarat, but Indian people of all faiths (or none) are showing much solidarity at the moment.
Just noticed this. A reasonable selection in its own way, but not especially Trinitarian, as you say. Odd, given the number of suitable hymns that exist.
You might have enjoyed the Mass at Uppsala Cathedral today, which included the ordination of a fair number of priests and deacons. They had a nice Swedish Trinitarian hymn to start with, and later on the choir sang O lux, beata Trinitas by Thomas Tallis. During the ordination, a lovely hymn - How does my life become a YES to you? - was sung to Ken Naylor's Coe Fen. It scans better in Swedish.
BTW, did any of you sing (or say) the Athanasian Creed today? FatherinCharge and Madam Sacristan said it at BCP Mattins, but I don't think anyone else was there (not even the angels, to whom it must be equally incomprehensible).
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty
Thou whose almighty word
Come down, O Love Divine
We give immortal praise
God of grace and God of glory
Lots of people were away so we didn't have a choir, so I sat in the congregation, quite near the front. Afterwards our organist told me he had heard me singing alto, which surprised me due to the distance away and loudness of the organ. Also because, not being in the choir seats, I didn't have a music copy of the hymns to hand, so I was making up the alto part as I went along ... he seemed to think it agreed with what he was playing anyway!!
Holy, Holy, Holy (Nicaea)
Celtic Alleluia (O'Carroll/Walker)
Holy Father, Great Creator (Regent Square)
Come Join the Dance of Trinity (Flight of the Earls)
All Hail the Power of Jesus’ Name! (Coronation)
Praise, My Soul, The King Of Heaven (Lauda Anima)
He is Lord (He is Lord)
Our Place once had a Visiting Priest who did recite the Athanasian Creed as his sermon on Trinity Sunday
There were a couple of visitors present. We never saw them again.
(To be fair, that priest - a good friend to us - usually gave a short, but succinct, homily, based on the Gospel).