There's quite a bit of research on the efficiency of reading on e-readers vs reading on physical books, and what's generally been found is that the former is far less memorable, far less likely to lead to content being remembered subsequently.
Less research has been done into the reasons why, but one explanation is that human memory is highly contextual. It evolved in an environment where you had to remember things like "the blackberry patch is by those tall pine trees near the bend in the river with the big rock and they'll be ripe when the stars look like so and it's been hot enough to smell leaves baking in the sun". Surveying people who had read material in book form their memories were often associated with the physical attributes of the book itself, or the position of text on the page, or the quality of light on the page of the book and so on.
Bringing this back to generative AI; I think the something analogous is going on. By default these tools will generate text by a kind of averaging/flattening process which picks from a selection of 'most likely' outputs. But it precisely each person's particular and consistent deviation from that average which makes up their individual style.
I suspect I could identify most of my close friends and family from relatively short transcriptions of their verbal speech. Conversely trying to wade through AI generated prose is an exercise in frustration and persistence. It's like trying to get through one of those technical texts which use passive subject only and where all the edges of a language are sheared off.
Surveying people who had read material in book form their memories were often associated with the physical attributes of the book itself, or the position of text on the page, or the quality of light on the page of the book and so on.
I know this is true of me - I always remember things like this. It will be "I remember reading about this, and want to find the reference. It was on the top right corner of a right-hand page." and I'll probably remember something about the typeface.
Surveying people who had read material in book form their memories were often associated with the physical attributes of the book itself, or the position of text on the page, or the quality of light on the page of the book and so on.
I know this is true of me - I always remember things like this. It will be "I remember reading about this, and want to find the reference. It was on the top right corner of a right-hand page." and I'll probably remember something about the typeface.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I read a lot on my Kindle and remember the books in detail. And I do often remember where certain lines were on the page of the screen, and the font, and where I've highlighted it, and the setting I was reading in, etc., but if I want to find a reference, I just do a search. My observation of the research is that it was on people who were new to reading on a Kindle, and I would say there is always an adjustment when one is experiencing a new type medium. Like writers in the past saying one should never use a typewriter/word processer, because real creativity comes only with pen and paper!
Surveying people who had read material in book form their memories were often associated with the physical attributes of the book itself, or the position of text on the page, or the quality of light on the page of the book and so on.
I know this is true of me - I always remember things like this. It will be "I remember reading about this, and want to find the reference. It was on the top right corner of a right-hand page." and I'll probably remember something about the typeface.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I read a lot on my Kindle and remember the books in detail. And I do often remember where certain lines were on the page of the screen, and the font, and where I've highlighted it, and the setting I was reading in
To a point I do as well, but the position of text is often not consistent (sometimes just going forwards and then back can move it).
My observation of the research is that it was on people who were new to reading on a Kindle
AFAICR the biggest evidence was from a meta-study and this was not true of a significant minority of the underlying studies, and at least at this point e-readers are relatively old hat.
[There are similar results for people who read on screen, and that technology is even older]
Surveying people who had read material in book form their memories were often associated with the physical attributes of the book itself, or the position of text on the page, or the quality of light on the page of the book and so on.
I know this is true of me - I always remember things like this. It will be "I remember reading about this, and want to find the reference. It was on the top right corner of a right-hand page." and I'll probably remember something about the typeface.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I read a lot on my Kindle and remember the books in detail. And I do often remember where certain lines were on the page of the screen, and the font, and where I've highlighted it, and the setting I was reading in
To a point I do as well, but the position of text is often not consistent (sometimes just going forwards and then back can move it).
Which drives me to absolute distraction. It’s one of the reasons I really don’t like reading an ebook. It’s usually a no-other-option option for me.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I read a lot on my Kindle and remember the books in detail. And I do often remember where certain lines were on the page of the screen, and the font, and where I've highlighted it, and the setting I was reading in, etc., but if I want to find a reference, I just do a search.
It's a good tangent, though!
Unfortunately, search is pretty sucky. If I can't remember the thing I want to reference, I probably can't remember enough key words well enough to pick it up immediately in a search. It's possible that the brave new AI world will make this better, but for me, search is better than using a physical book's index, but nowhere near as good as my spatial memory.
And search doesn't help as much if part of the question is "there are a dozen books on my desk, and I'm looking for a phrase from one of them".
This is a bit of a tangent, but I read a lot on my Kindle and remember the books in detail. And I do often remember where certain lines were on the page of the screen, and the font, and where I've highlighted it, and the setting I was reading in, etc., but if I want to find a reference, I just do a search.
It's a good tangent, though!
Unfortunately, search is pretty sucky. If I can't remember the thing I want to reference, I probably can't remember enough key words well enough to pick it up immediately in a search. It's possible that the brave new AI world will make this better, but for me, search is better than using a physical book's index, but nowhere near as good as my spatial memory.
And search doesn't help as much if part of the question is "there are a dozen books on my desk, and I'm looking for a phrase from one of them".
Ah, that's a shame. I have the opposite, where I remember exact words, so the search works better for me than flipping through a physical book. Also, sometimes when a character is introduced near the beginning and then referred to quite a bit later, I have forgotten who they are, and that's where I really find the search feature handy. I can find the exact moment they were introduced.
Hmmmm .... how about feeding AI that infamous verse from Psalm 137. Scottish metrical version:
'Oh blessed may that trooper be,
When riding on his naggie,
Takes their wee bairns by t' toes
And dings them on the craggie'.
@RockyRoger I’ve seen that quoted a few times, but never found it in any source. I can see how it echoes the psalm, but I suspect it has never had any official status.
The quote is in in C S Lewis's 'Reflections on the Psalms'. I don't think he says where he got it from. But it's a gem, you will agree.
Hmm. I can’t track it down in my edition of Reflections. Do you know what chapter it is in?
Hmmmm .... how about feeding AI that infamous verse from Psalm 137. Scottish metrical version:
'Oh blessed may that trooper be,
When riding on his naggie,
Takes their wee bairns by t' toes
And dings them on the craggie'.
@RockyRoger I’ve seen that quoted a few times, but never found it in any source. I can see how it echoes the psalm, but I suspect it has never had any official status.
The quote is in in C S Lewis's 'Reflections on the Psalms'. I don't think he says where he got it from. But it's a gem, you will agree.
Hmm. I can’t track it down in my edition of Reflections. Do you know what chapter it is in?
It's not. Using the wonders of technology and ebooks, which people are grumbling about, you can do a search and see for definite that it's not there. The text is available free on Faded Page online. Here, click on the HTML version and search for naggie or toes or any other word from the quote.
Using the wonders of technology and ebooks, which people are grumbling about, . . . .
I think it’s a bit of an overstatement to say that people have been “grumbling about the wonders of technology”—we are all participating in an online forum, after all.
As for ebooks, some have said some reasons they tend to prefer physical books to ebooks. Is that “grumbling” about ebooks? I use ebooks fairly regularly, and I’ll readily admit they have some advantages. (The one I use most often is one I often need to copy text from to paste into another document. Can’t do that with a physical book.)
But generally speaking, I still prefer physical books, especially when it comes to things like novels. But that’s me.
A *very* brief online search suggests that the quote's from Letters to an American Lady as:
Thank you for your most kind and encouraging letter.
Old Scottish version of Psalm 137:8-
O blessed may that trooper be
Who, riding on his naggie,
Wull tak thy wee bairns by the taes
And ding them on the craggie.
Using the wonders of technology and ebooks, which people are grumbling about, . . . .
I think it’s a bit of an overstatement to say that people have been “grumbling about the wonders of technology”—we are all participating in an online forum, after all.
It was a deliberately flippant comment, given the previous influx of comments about ebooks being inferior to paper books, and the search feature being not very helpful, and how it's much easier to flick through the book. I was pointing out the irony, as it took me a few seconds to find what was being asked - which has also been asked in another thread, so I was hoping to put it to rest. I was also hoping to bring to an end this little sub-thread about all the flaws of ebooks, as I am genuinely wanting a supportive thread about positive uses of ChatGPT, and grumbles about ebooks seems like a different topic. No, I can't control the way a thread goes, but yes, I can try to give it a little steer, and even make a flippant comment now and then - heaven forbid!
A *very* brief online search suggests that the quote's from Letters to an American Lady as:
Thank you for your most kind and encouraging letter.
Old Scottish version of Psalm 137:8-
O blessed may that trooper be
Who, riding on his naggie,
Wull tak thy wee bairns by the taes
And ding them on the craggie.
The question is whether it actually is an “old Scottish version of Psalm 137:8,” or whether it’s an invention. I have never been able to find it in an actual psalter, nor has googling come up with anything other than something along the lines of “as ann old Scottish psalter had it . . . .” But no one ever seems to cite an actual source.
At any rate, not invented by Lewis, as another very quick google search shows that it's quoted here, on page 161, a book written by Sabine Baring-Gould several decades before Lewis had started writing letters to his American lady.
A *very* brief online search suggests that the quote's from Letters to an American Lady as:
Thank you for your most kind and encouraging letter.
Old Scottish version of Psalm 137:8-
O blessed may that trooper be
Who, riding on his naggie,
Wull tak thy wee bairns by the taes
And ding them on the craggie.
The question is whether it actually is an “old Scottish version of Psalm 137:8,” or whether it’s an invention. I have never been able to find it in an actual psalter, nor has googling come up with anything other than something along the lines of “as ann old Scottish psalter had it . . . .” But no one ever seems to cite an actual source.
I call invention. It’s not in Sternhold and Hopkins, nor in Tate and Brady, nor in the 1650 Scottish Psalter, nor in its predecessor (the first published Scottish metrical psalter) in 1564, nor in that psalter’s Anglo-Genevan predecessor.
Could have just been one of those jokes that everyone at the time knew was a joke. That sort of thing is quite a common British sense of humour type thing among preachers, I find.
Surveying people who had read material in book form their memories were often associated with the physical attributes of the book itself, or the position of text on the page, or the quality of light on the page of the book and so on.
In a similar way, if I need to think how to spell a word, I often close my eyes and see it in my mind, in Times Roman black on a white page.
I'm a big fan of my e-reader, and am grateful for the background light because I always read before going to sleep and all the house lights are off. It is frustrating to not be able to easily go back to a previously read chapter, then go right back where I left off. Being able to touch a word for a definition is a huge plus. Those times I read a physical book, I do find myself touching a word on the paper, then the dawn breaks.
My daughter uses audio books most of the time. She speeds the audio up quite a bit after training herself to be able to parse what is being read. She reads several books a week this way. I was excited to try an audio book I downloaded. Never finished it because every time I listened, if I wasn't doing anything, I would fall asleep. If I was doing chores or whatever, my attention kept wandering.
I find e-readers really good for reading in bed. I like to lie curled up on my side, and it is awkward both holding a paper book this way, and also my glasses dig into my face and move around, so I can't see properly out of them. With an ereader, I can prop it against a pillow, a couple of inches from my face, so then I don't need to wear my glasses.
@jedijudy , with the Kindle, you can click on the chapters, go back to a previous chapter, and at the bottom of the screen is the option to return to where you were.
I find audiobooks challenging, as I have auditory processing difficulties, so I easily lose track of what is going on, but I really like them for poetry, and poetic writing that is very based on the sounds of words, like Finnegan's Wake. I keep trying with regular novels, and I find them easier to process if I speed up the sound.
I like reading physical books when I'm in coffee shops. I like having several with me and putting them all side by side on the table, looking at their covers. I am now in a coffee shop with two library books on the table with my cup of coffee. I always bring my Kindle too, and also read from that.
I am a university lecturer and part time historian. Because I work for an online university, I teach using online written materials and I am used to reading journal articles and book chapters online. I also did my own degree and doctorate studies online and I am currently doing a history masters online, using online archives. I’ve had a Kindle since they came out, though I tend to use the app on my iPad these days. So I am very relaxed about work, study and leisure reading with electronic materials and I am very experienced with these.
Yet I would still choose a paper book over an e-book. For studying it allows me to skim read quickly through a book and identify potentially relevant materials which I can then mark up; my books have lots of turned over pages and I remember where information is physically in paper books. When writing an essay or paper the books are on my desk and I easily flip through them to find what I want.
A search for key words on an e-book would not enable me to find unexpected relevant material which can only be found be viewing each page. When I am studying I want to find original and surprising ideas and read between the lines, not rely on someone having used specific terminology. This is especially important when studying history as the writers might not write or use terminology like modern people. Articles or book chapters are less of an issue as they are shorter to skim read.
I listen to audio books while doing housework or cooking, usually history books but ones not related to my studies as I can’t mark them. I love hearing stories or plays too.
Generally I prefer physical books. I do have a number of books (mainly free classics) on my iPad for the following reasons:
- access to more reading material if away from home
- easier to read at night just to send myself to sleep (I put it on night setting so it isn’t too bright, and it helpfully switches itself off if I fall asleep while reading, unlike a light)
- a cheap and easy way of reading classics that I don’t necessarily want to buy (e.g. I’ve read all of Thomas Hardy on my iPad, even the not very good ones)
- useful for searching specific words, particularly in the Bible (e.g. quickly checking which gospels mention Mary by name, or finding all references to Samaritans)
I love physical books, but I read extremely fast, and my disabilities mean I can no longer hoik enough reading for a holiday along with me on an airplane. I used to use a 25 lb rice bag to do that, but those days are long gone. So it's an e-reader for me (though I lost my last one this summer, Waaaaah!!!) or a phone.
Similarly I have had an e-reader of some kind since 2010, it's generally used with books I'm likely to read once, and straight through. So largely lighter fiction or less frequently lighter non-fiction (mainly devotional), though I have picked some more substantial books over the years and courtesy of bundle sites and/or publishers who do ebook sales.
I'll read on screen, but a tablet is preferable to a monitor, and that's generally how I read a number of magazines and blogs.
Any book I'm likely to use as part of serious study I prefer in print, for all the reasons heavenlyannie mentions above.
I consume most of my fiction reading via audio books, often listening when driving. So in the same way that people have reported remembering where a particular passage appeared on a page of a physical book, I frequently remember whereabouts I was driving when I heard a particular part of the story.
I tend to remember stuff by location -- it's on a left facing page, about 2/3 of the way down, halfway through the paragraph. Which works about 2/3 of the time. The other 1/3, it turns out to be on a right-facing page near the top.
Out of curiosity, for those who remember parts of the book by location, do you also visualise what is happening in the book? For me, both with paper books and ebook, there are some points where my eyes focus on the words, and then I do see where they are on the page or screen, and the font and spacing and all, but most of the time, if I am absorbed in the story, I am visualising it in my head, like a cinema screen, or even as if I am there, so it's 3D. And then the words themselves are not my focus.
It's like the book or e-reader is a portal. I am conscious of seeing it when I pick it up to start to read, just as I am conscious of my surroundings, and they also become associated with the book, but then, if it's a novel I get absorbed in and is very visual, my mind is no longer on the words at all, unless some strange wording interrupts the inner visuals, or if something happens to distract or surprise me, etc. So the parts of the book that I remember by location are not the whole book, but just parts now and then. Also the switch from looking at the words on the page to the inner visualisation.
If it's a book that really absorbed me, I often don't even remember whether it was an ebook or paper book that I read, unless there was something about the format that really stuck in my memory as part of the reading experience.
I am aphantasic so I don’t visualise what I read. But I hear it in my head. Reading your words now on my iPad I hear them. If I knew what your voice sounded like I would hear them in your voice.
I've never had an e-reader, I think Cheery husband hoped their creation would end the purchasing of more bookcases, but alas for him, no. I am just not interested in them, but do appreciate their use for travel and convenience, say for commuters.
I worked a little bit with e journals in my last job and can see how important and helpful they are for academics, but I there are downsides that are perhaps only seen by the behind the scenes people and not the users.
I think Cheery husband cursed me the most though was when we had to relocate for a few months when son was ill, I insisted we pack up his/my favourite books to take with us. One fabulous volunteer on the ward used to bring in books from the local library before they were circulated to the public, but for BMT kids that was not allowed. I managed some work arounds with our own things and having our own things in a stressful time was really important.
In later years I've enjoyed audiobooks in the car, but as a fast reader I find them a bit frustrating and most of my reading is done sitting down with a cup of tea and book in hand, so I can't imagine sitting and just listening with nothing to hold. Even though I love a podcast I don't enjoy audios as much as tree books. I don't know whether it's the holding an item thing, or whether I can read faster silently, or what, but it will always be a tree book for me.
I consume most of my fiction reading via audio books, often listening when driving. So in the same way that people have reported remembering where a particular passage appeared on a page of a physical book, I frequently remember whereabouts I was driving when I heard a particular part of the story.
I don't listen to audio books but have the same experience when listening to podcasts. When just reading I might also remember other things such as my emotions at the time, time of day, smells and so on as well particulars about the actual words I'm reading (the position on the page etc noted above). If I'm travelling while reading, I might remember peripheral happenings from the trip.
Our bookshelves are full, so books are borrowed from the library, so even if I could remember a place by some physics characteristic the actual book is unlikely to be available.
I use the Kindle app on PC, mobile, and tablet. As I vary the font size, the position on the screen can change. I do use highlighting to aid recall. These are mostly non-fiction, though I have imported some pdf fiction.
Always read physical books. Never ereaders or audio books. I will print articles etc. off the internet and read them in hard copy. I will only read online for very, short articles and other material for work. Anything of length gets printed off. Part of the reason is I tend to like to markup material (psychoeducational reports, academic articles etc) as I read them.
I prefer physical books. I have had two e-readers but I never warmed up to either of them. And now they are both nonfunctional.
As for audio books, I find it depends entirely on the book. I truly enjoy listening to Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe stories in audio format because the stories are all written in the first person from the point of view of Wolfe's assistant, Archie Goodwin. It feels like you are sitting with Archie as he tells the story.
I use Libby sometimes, which is the platform our library uses for ebooks, mainly because carrying books home on the bus weighs me down, but I prefer paper books.
In the past I've had a kindle, but I decided not to buy from Amazon because of the way they treated their workers at that time. (I don't know if this has changed).
Also I found it too easy to mindlessly buy the next book in series and blow my budget.
I have tried using audiobooks, but found some of the voices distracting.
@Huia I too was finding books heavy to carry back from the library. Then I discoverd that the library of my local council has a home delivery service. I reserve from the online catalogue and once a month on a set date a bag (or two!) of those books is delivered peronally by a library staff member.
It is not such a good library as the one I used to use - far too many ebooks and audiobooks, and no good way to search for "text" only. Most annoying when a title I really want to read is available in every format other than text.
In the past I've had a kindle, but I decided not to buy from Amazon because of the way they treated their workers at that time. (I don't know if this has changed).
If you have seen Nomadland, I doubt whether Bezos would have improved things.
I've read mainly e-books (especially for fiction) since I got my first e-reader in 2009. I now read on an iPad mini (about the same size as a paperback book) using the Kobo, Kindle, and Libby apps.
What I love about e-reading is the ability to read at night without turning on the light, and the ability to increase the font size (which is becoming more useful as I get older!). And of course being able to take 10 books on vacation without taking up space in my luggage.
Our bookshelves are still very full; I tend to buy copies of books I have already read that I know are favourites. Or books that I can't get as e-books.
One disadvantage to the e-reader is that I find it doesn't work as well outside in direct sunlight. So in summer, when I'm likely to be reading out in the hammock or sitting on the deck, I save up paper books to read outdoors.
I listen to audiobooks a lot too, but almost exclusively non-fiction. I listen while washing dishes, driving the car, or walking the dog, and I fear that if I tried to listen to novels this way I'd miss key plot points, but I can usually let my mind drift a bit in a non-fiction work and pull it back without losing too much information!
I'm a big believer in everyone reading in the format that works best for them.
I'm a big believer in everyone reading in the format that works best for them.
Me too. I have an older friend who only reads on her ereader these days, because of being able to adjust font and lighting for her eyesight. She sometimes shows an interest in a book I'm reading, and I tell her I'll give it to her when I'm done, but she says she needs to get it for her Kindle to be able to read it. And my dad only reads from his Samsung tablet, because of how big the screen is and how bright it is for reading in bed, which is easier for him.
I prefer not to read on my phone/tablet, as I find the back light uncomfortable (though obviously I use them for social media and such, but that's smaller pieces of text at a time). The ereader screens are more like looking at paper, very easy on the eye, and I really like being able to adjust font type and size, and line spacing - I've never been a fan of Times New Roman! I actually preferred ereaders before they started having lights, though the lights are handy for reading in bed in the dark, which I never used to do, but now I do sometimes, and it's nice - not a bright glare like my phone. Though my favourite ereader is an old Kobo Mini, which cost about £30 and has no light and is the smallest type of ereader. They've stopped doing them, unfortunately. I hoped they might make a new version.
I mostly read on the Kindle app on the iPad. I have just read a physical book - an elderly paperback with brown and brittle pages. It needed the assistance of a dedicated reading lamp though.
Also, sometimes when a character is introduced near the beginning and then referred to quite a bit later, I have forgotten who they are, and that's where I really find the search feature handy.
Mrs C has long wanted a memory prompt feature for TV shows. A man that looks vaguely familiar walks on the screen. She wants to push a button and get a bubble that says "this is Reginald. He is married to Sheila, and is the father of Ned the postman. We last saw Reginald twenty minutes ago, when he was having an argument with Roy Jenkins in the pub." There are a number of programs that she won't watch, because all the characters look too similar.
Out of curiosity, for those who remember parts of the book by location, do you also visualise what is happening in the book? For me, both with paper books and ebook, there are some points where my eyes focus on the words, and then I do see where they are on the page or screen, and the font and spacing and all, but most of the time, if I am absorbed in the story, I am visualising it in my head, like a cinema screen, or even as if I am there, so it's 3D. And then the words themselves are not my focus.
No, I don't think I visualize anything at all when I'm reading a book. In a lot of novels, I have very little idea about what the main characters actually look like. That just doesn't seem all that important. For characters where physical features are an important part of their description, I still don't generate a mental picture of how I imagine the character - I store a memory of the description.
I can certainly be completely engrossed in a novel, but I'm engaging with it in an entirely textual / verbal manner.
Out of curiosity, for those who remember parts of the book by location, do you also visualise what is happening in the book? For me, both with paper books and ebook, there are some points where my eyes focus on the words, and then I do see where they are on the page or screen, and the font and spacing and all, but most of the time, if I am absorbed in the story, I am visualising it in my head, like a cinema screen, or even as if I am there, so it's 3D. And then the words themselves are not my focus.
No, I don't think I visualize anything at all when I'm reading a book. In a lot of novels, I have very little idea about what the main characters actually look like. That just doesn't seem all that important. For characters where physical features are an important part of their description, I still don't generate a mental picture of how I imagine the character - I store a memory of the description.
I can certainly be completely engrossed in a novel, but I'm engaging with it in an entirely textual / verbal manner.
Interesting. Some people don't have visualisations in their mind's eye. I am very visual, but I don't really visualise the characters' features either, unless they are described. It's more that I have a sense of the characters as presences around me. Same as in life, I see their shape, their size, their movement, their posture, their personality. I have a sense of the entire scene and the movement within it, and so I see characters as placed within a scene, moving around. So for instance, I'm currently reading Marilynne Robinson's Jack, and I have been visualising Jack and Della in the graveyard overnight, and it's dark, so they are shadowy presences. I am feeling the damp, the places they are sitting, the fatigue, and feeling and visualising how they are situated with regard to each other - when they are closer, when they are touching, when they are walking, when they are sitting, etc. And I feel the atmosphere - when things are tense, or shy, or intimate, or distant.
A minor point; I think the 6"/7" screen size is actually quite small in terms of actual real-estate when it translates to computer generated fonts, and I feel most people would benefit from something bigger.
In terms of visualisations, it varies, it's usually some kind of abstract associational set of images, that are half what I imagine synaesthesia to be and half the kinds of images I have in my mind when working through certain types of maths.
I do visualize things a lot--I think in images, almost all the time, rather than words, though I may see those too.
But the weird thing is, if I'm reading a book with a series of "sets"--for example, in the Sharing Knife, which I'm reading now, there's a house with one man living in it, a medicine maker--
well, then, I take part of the description from the book, enough to get me going, but then "borrow" the rest of a set familiar to me from real life--in this case, I suspect it's the vacation home of a family I once knew--and superimpose that on the book's description. The camp gate setting in the same book is doubtless borrowed from the Scout camp I've been at with my son. Houses I've lived in when I was younger often provide me with templates for places in books (sometimes wrongly, which forces me to go back and reread when I realize that a plotline depends on a particular room being right next to another one, and I've gone and assigned it a real-life set that doesn't match that properly).
I think I may do that, too, with gardens and even people (in terms of physical looks, I mean). Geography too, if the book doesn't make it hugely clear that it's otherwise--and again, if the plot doesn't positively require a different layout for it to work.
My preference is for physical books but I have been increasingly going to ebooks as a matter of practicality - especially if I don’t think I’m going to be reading them over and over again and I don’t want to have to find space for them on the shelf.
I’ve never really been into audio books. But just now it occurs to me that for some things they might be a useful corrective to my tendency to want to read everything quickly - useful for some kinds of reading but not for everything.
@Marsupial, not exactly what you are describing, but when daughter was at Uni she was really struggling with Pride and Prejudice. I found it for her on an unabridged audiobook and she listened instead of trying to read and it made all the difference for her.
As we were on holidays at the same time, I also bought the dvds of Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth and I think that helped a bit as well. She managed to do well on her assignment where she compared the original work with the Lizzie Bennet diaries, which was very popular at the time.
I was very happy to have found the audiobooks in an Op shop, so I got P & P and S &S and Emma all in a nice tin, which is great for the car and has certainly returned my initial investment many times over.
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Less research has been done into the reasons why, but one explanation is that human memory is highly contextual. It evolved in an environment where you had to remember things like "the blackberry patch is by those tall pine trees near the bend in the river with the big rock and they'll be ripe when the stars look like so and it's been hot enough to smell leaves baking in the sun". Surveying people who had read material in book form their memories were often associated with the physical attributes of the book itself, or the position of text on the page, or the quality of light on the page of the book and so on.
Bringing this back to generative AI; I think the something analogous is going on. By default these tools will generate text by a kind of averaging/flattening process which picks from a selection of 'most likely' outputs. But it precisely each person's particular and consistent deviation from that average which makes up their individual style.
I suspect I could identify most of my close friends and family from relatively short transcriptions of their verbal speech. Conversely trying to wade through AI generated prose is an exercise in frustration and persistence. It's like trying to get through one of those technical texts which use passive subject only and where all the edges of a language are sheared off.
I know this is true of me - I always remember things like this. It will be "I remember reading about this, and want to find the reference. It was on the top right corner of a right-hand page." and I'll probably remember something about the typeface.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I read a lot on my Kindle and remember the books in detail. And I do often remember where certain lines were on the page of the screen, and the font, and where I've highlighted it, and the setting I was reading in, etc., but if I want to find a reference, I just do a search. My observation of the research is that it was on people who were new to reading on a Kindle, and I would say there is always an adjustment when one is experiencing a new type medium. Like writers in the past saying one should never use a typewriter/word processer, because real creativity comes only with pen and paper!
To a point I do as well, but the position of text is often not consistent (sometimes just going forwards and then back can move it).
AFAICR the biggest evidence was from a meta-study and this was not true of a significant minority of the underlying studies, and at least at this point e-readers are relatively old hat.
[There are similar results for people who read on screen, and that technology is even older]
It's a good tangent, though!
Unfortunately, search is pretty sucky. If I can't remember the thing I want to reference, I probably can't remember enough key words well enough to pick it up immediately in a search. It's possible that the brave new AI world will make this better, but for me, search is better than using a physical book's index, but nowhere near as good as my spatial memory.
And search doesn't help as much if part of the question is "there are a dozen books on my desk, and I'm looking for a phrase from one of them".
Ah, that's a shame. I have the opposite, where I remember exact words, so the search works better for me than flipping through a physical book. Also, sometimes when a character is introduced near the beginning and then referred to quite a bit later, I have forgotten who they are, and that's where I really find the search feature handy. I can find the exact moment they were introduced.
It's not. Using the wonders of technology and ebooks, which people are grumbling about, you can do a search and see for definite that it's not there. The text is available free on Faded Page online. Here, click on the HTML version and search for naggie or toes or any other word from the quote.
As for ebooks, some have said some reasons they tend to prefer physical books to ebooks. Is that “grumbling” about ebooks? I use ebooks fairly regularly, and I’ll readily admit they have some advantages. (The one I use most often is one I often need to copy text from to paste into another document. Can’t do that with a physical book.)
But generally speaking, I still prefer physical books, especially when it comes to things like novels. But that’s me.
It was a deliberately flippant comment, given the previous influx of comments about ebooks being inferior to paper books, and the search feature being not very helpful, and how it's much easier to flick through the book. I was pointing out the irony, as it took me a few seconds to find what was being asked - which has also been asked in another thread, so I was hoping to put it to rest. I was also hoping to bring to an end this little sub-thread about all the flaws of ebooks, as I am genuinely wanting a supportive thread about positive uses of ChatGPT, and grumbles about ebooks seems like a different topic. No, I can't control the way a thread goes, but yes, I can try to give it a little steer, and even make a flippant comment now and then - heaven forbid!
The question is whether it actually is an “old Scottish version of Psalm 137:8,” or whether it’s an invention. I have never been able to find it in an actual psalter, nor has googling come up with anything other than something along the lines of “as ann old Scottish psalter had it . . . .” But no one ever seems to cite an actual source.
In a similar way, if I need to think how to spell a word, I often close my eyes and see it in my mind, in Times Roman black on a white page.
My daughter uses audio books most of the time. She speeds the audio up quite a bit after training herself to be able to parse what is being read. She reads several books a week this way. I was excited to try an audio book I downloaded. Never finished it because every time I listened, if I wasn't doing anything, I would fall asleep. If I was doing chores or whatever, my attention kept wandering.
@jedijudy , with the Kindle, you can click on the chapters, go back to a previous chapter, and at the bottom of the screen is the option to return to where you were.
I find audiobooks challenging, as I have auditory processing difficulties, so I easily lose track of what is going on, but I really like them for poetry, and poetic writing that is very based on the sounds of words, like Finnegan's Wake. I keep trying with regular novels, and I find them easier to process if I speed up the sound.
I like reading physical books when I'm in coffee shops. I like having several with me and putting them all side by side on the table, looking at their covers. I am now in a coffee shop with two library books on the table with my cup of coffee. I always bring my Kindle too, and also read from that.
Yet I would still choose a paper book over an e-book. For studying it allows me to skim read quickly through a book and identify potentially relevant materials which I can then mark up; my books have lots of turned over pages and I remember where information is physically in paper books. When writing an essay or paper the books are on my desk and I easily flip through them to find what I want.
A search for key words on an e-book would not enable me to find unexpected relevant material which can only be found be viewing each page. When I am studying I want to find original and surprising ideas and read between the lines, not rely on someone having used specific terminology. This is especially important when studying history as the writers might not write or use terminology like modern people. Articles or book chapters are less of an issue as they are shorter to skim read.
I listen to audio books while doing housework or cooking, usually history books but ones not related to my studies as I can’t mark them. I love hearing stories or plays too.
- access to more reading material if away from home
- easier to read at night just to send myself to sleep (I put it on night setting so it isn’t too bright, and it helpfully switches itself off if I fall asleep while reading, unlike a light)
- a cheap and easy way of reading classics that I don’t necessarily want to buy (e.g. I’ve read all of Thomas Hardy on my iPad, even the not very good ones)
- useful for searching specific words, particularly in the Bible (e.g. quickly checking which gospels mention Mary by name, or finding all references to Samaritans)
I'll read on screen, but a tablet is preferable to a monitor, and that's generally how I read a number of magazines and blogs.
Any book I'm likely to use as part of serious study I prefer in print, for all the reasons heavenlyannie mentions above.
It's like the book or e-reader is a portal. I am conscious of seeing it when I pick it up to start to read, just as I am conscious of my surroundings, and they also become associated with the book, but then, if it's a novel I get absorbed in and is very visual, my mind is no longer on the words at all, unless some strange wording interrupts the inner visuals, or if something happens to distract or surprise me, etc. So the parts of the book that I remember by location are not the whole book, but just parts now and then. Also the switch from looking at the words on the page to the inner visualisation.
If it's a book that really absorbed me, I often don't even remember whether it was an ebook or paper book that I read, unless there was something about the format that really stuck in my memory as part of the reading experience.
I worked a little bit with e journals in my last job and can see how important and helpful they are for academics, but I there are downsides that are perhaps only seen by the behind the scenes people and not the users.
I think Cheery husband cursed me the most though was when we had to relocate for a few months when son was ill, I insisted we pack up his/my favourite books to take with us. One fabulous volunteer on the ward used to bring in books from the local library before they were circulated to the public, but for BMT kids that was not allowed. I managed some work arounds with our own things and having our own things in a stressful time was really important.
In later years I've enjoyed audiobooks in the car, but as a fast reader I find them a bit frustrating and most of my reading is done sitting down with a cup of tea and book in hand, so I can't imagine sitting and just listening with nothing to hold. Even though I love a podcast I don't enjoy audios as much as tree books. I don't know whether it's the holding an item thing, or whether I can read faster silently, or what, but it will always be a tree book for me.
I don't listen to audio books but have the same experience when listening to podcasts. When just reading I might also remember other things such as my emotions at the time, time of day, smells and so on as well particulars about the actual words I'm reading (the position on the page etc noted above). If I'm travelling while reading, I might remember peripheral happenings from the trip.
I use the Kindle app on PC, mobile, and tablet. As I vary the font size, the position on the screen can change. I do use highlighting to aid recall. These are mostly non-fiction, though I have imported some pdf fiction.
As for audio books, I find it depends entirely on the book. I truly enjoy listening to Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe stories in audio format because the stories are all written in the first person from the point of view of Wolfe's assistant, Archie Goodwin. It feels like you are sitting with Archie as he tells the story.
In the past I've had a kindle, but I decided not to buy from Amazon because of the way they treated their workers at that time. (I don't know if this has changed).
Also I found it too easy to mindlessly buy the next book in series and blow my budget.
I have tried using audiobooks, but found some of the voices distracting.
It is not such a good library as the one I used to use - far too many ebooks and audiobooks, and no good way to search for "text" only. Most annoying when a title I really want to read is available in every format other than text.
If you have seen Nomadland, I doubt whether Bezos would have improved things.
What I love about e-reading is the ability to read at night without turning on the light, and the ability to increase the font size (which is becoming more useful as I get older!). And of course being able to take 10 books on vacation without taking up space in my luggage.
Our bookshelves are still very full; I tend to buy copies of books I have already read that I know are favourites. Or books that I can't get as e-books.
One disadvantage to the e-reader is that I find it doesn't work as well outside in direct sunlight. So in summer, when I'm likely to be reading out in the hammock or sitting on the deck, I save up paper books to read outdoors.
I listen to audiobooks a lot too, but almost exclusively non-fiction. I listen while washing dishes, driving the car, or walking the dog, and I fear that if I tried to listen to novels this way I'd miss key plot points, but I can usually let my mind drift a bit in a non-fiction work and pull it back without losing too much information!
I'm a big believer in everyone reading in the format that works best for them.
Me too. I have an older friend who only reads on her ereader these days, because of being able to adjust font and lighting for her eyesight. She sometimes shows an interest in a book I'm reading, and I tell her I'll give it to her when I'm done, but she says she needs to get it for her Kindle to be able to read it. And my dad only reads from his Samsung tablet, because of how big the screen is and how bright it is for reading in bed, which is easier for him.
I prefer not to read on my phone/tablet, as I find the back light uncomfortable (though obviously I use them for social media and such, but that's smaller pieces of text at a time). The ereader screens are more like looking at paper, very easy on the eye, and I really like being able to adjust font type and size, and line spacing - I've never been a fan of Times New Roman! I actually preferred ereaders before they started having lights, though the lights are handy for reading in bed in the dark, which I never used to do, but now I do sometimes, and it's nice - not a bright glare like my phone. Though my favourite ereader is an old Kobo Mini, which cost about £30 and has no light and is the smallest type of ereader. They've stopped doing them, unfortunately. I hoped they might make a new version.
Mrs C has long wanted a memory prompt feature for TV shows. A man that looks vaguely familiar walks on the screen. She wants to push a button and get a bubble that says "this is Reginald. He is married to Sheila, and is the father of Ned the postman. We last saw Reginald twenty minutes ago, when he was having an argument with Roy Jenkins in the pub." There are a number of programs that she won't watch, because all the characters look too similar.
No, I don't think I visualize anything at all when I'm reading a book. In a lot of novels, I have very little idea about what the main characters actually look like. That just doesn't seem all that important. For characters where physical features are an important part of their description, I still don't generate a mental picture of how I imagine the character - I store a memory of the description.
I can certainly be completely engrossed in a novel, but I'm engaging with it in an entirely textual / verbal manner.
Interesting. Some people don't have visualisations in their mind's eye. I am very visual, but I don't really visualise the characters' features either, unless they are described. It's more that I have a sense of the characters as presences around me. Same as in life, I see their shape, their size, their movement, their posture, their personality. I have a sense of the entire scene and the movement within it, and so I see characters as placed within a scene, moving around. So for instance, I'm currently reading Marilynne Robinson's Jack, and I have been visualising Jack and Della in the graveyard overnight, and it's dark, so they are shadowy presences. I am feeling the damp, the places they are sitting, the fatigue, and feeling and visualising how they are situated with regard to each other - when they are closer, when they are touching, when they are walking, when they are sitting, etc. And I feel the atmosphere - when things are tense, or shy, or intimate, or distant.
In terms of visualisations, it varies, it's usually some kind of abstract associational set of images, that are half what I imagine synaesthesia to be and half the kinds of images I have in my mind when working through certain types of maths.
But the weird thing is, if I'm reading a book with a series of "sets"--for example, in the Sharing Knife, which I'm reading now, there's a house with one man living in it, a medicine maker--
well, then, I take part of the description from the book, enough to get me going, but then "borrow" the rest of a set familiar to me from real life--in this case, I suspect it's the vacation home of a family I once knew--and superimpose that on the book's description. The camp gate setting in the same book is doubtless borrowed from the Scout camp I've been at with my son. Houses I've lived in when I was younger often provide me with templates for places in books (sometimes wrongly, which forces me to go back and reread when I realize that a plotline depends on a particular room being right next to another one, and I've gone and assigned it a real-life set that doesn't match that properly).
I think I may do that, too, with gardens and even people (in terms of physical looks, I mean). Geography too, if the book doesn't make it hugely clear that it's otherwise--and again, if the plot doesn't positively require a different layout for it to work.
I’ve never really been into audio books. But just now it occurs to me that for some things they might be a useful corrective to my tendency to want to read everything quickly - useful for some kinds of reading but not for everything.
As we were on holidays at the same time, I also bought the dvds of Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth and I think that helped a bit as well. She managed to do well on her assignment where she compared the original work with the Lizzie Bennet diaries, which was very popular at the time.
I was very happy to have found the audiobooks in an Op shop, so I got P & P and S &S and Emma all in a nice tin, which is great for the car and has certainly returned my initial investment many times over.