Dead Horses — Ship of Fools

Dead Horses — Ship of Fools http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/ Mon, 08 Jun 2026 03:00:05 +0000 en Dead Horses — Ship of Fools Moved: Is it a good idea for Western countries to push hard on other countries to adopt LGBT rights? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1775/moved-is-it-a-good-idea-for-western-countries-to-push-hard-on-other-countries-to-adopt-lgbt-rights Mon, 05 Aug 2019 03:12:40 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1775@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> Moved: Homosexuality - Legacy thread http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1774/moved-homosexuality-legacy-thread Sun, 04 Aug 2019 00:05:30 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1774@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> Moved: Abortion - Legacy thread http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1773/moved-abortion-legacy-thread Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:25:43 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1773@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> (Almost) Forced to Have an Abortion http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1684/almost-forced-to-have-an-abortion Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:00:57 +0000 Dead Horses stonespring 1684@/index.php?p=/discussions The Guardian.

The ruling has been overturned on appeal, although the appeals court judges have not given their reasons yet.

A lot of the details of the case are unclear, and because of privacy concerns (which are very legitimate), I don't know how much will be made public.

I'm aware that the original decision was not made at a whim by a judge. The NHS Trust caring for the woman, who is in her 20s and has a "moderately severe" learning disorder and a mood disorder, is moving to have the pregnancy terminated after an obstetrician and two psychiatrists have ruled it is the best option.

Nothing has been said to indicate that the fetus has any abnormalities or that continuing the pregnancy is a threat to the woman's health other than that, in the initial judge's estimation, it is a threat to the woman's mental health (although the mother wishes to have the child).

And there appears to be an investigation into the circumstances of the conception of the fetus. If the woman could be deemed to be legally incapable of consenting on her own to be a parent, it is likely that she could be deemed legally incapable of consenting to having sex, which means that the conception is likely to be considered to be the result of what legally is sexual assault.

I am also not sure why the judge thought that the woman's mother, who says she is willing to care for the child, might leave the country. I also do not know how much consideration the opinion of the social worker that works with the woman who believes the pregnancy should continue should be given compared with the opinion of the doctors - and I don't know how much time the doctors have spent with the woman compared with the social worker. Have the woman and her mother sought the opinion of any other doctors?

How do the judge and doctors know that the pain, for this woman, of dealing with the reality of childbirth, childcare, and the possibility of having the child be put up for adoption or put into foster care would be greater than the pain of being forced to have an abortion against her will? We can put ourselves into her shoes and think the forced abortion is less painful, but can any expert really know?

These quotes from the initial judge (from the link above) are particularly upsetting to me:

The judge said she was not sure the woman understood what having a baby meant. “I think she would like to have a baby in the same way she would like to have a nice doll,” Lieven said.

The woman may suffer more if the baby was born and then fostered or adopted than if the abortion was carried out, the judge said in the earlier ruling. She “would suffer greater trauma from having a baby removed. It would at that stage be a real baby,” she added.

]]> How Gay Rights are Different http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1662/how-gay-rights-are-different Thu, 13 Jun 2019 10:16:58 +0000 Dead Horses stonespring 1662@/index.php?p=/discussions
Being gay can compound the oppression that people of color, women, trans, non-binary, poor, etc, people face. Intersectionality matters.

And even otherwise privileged gays do still experience some legal and de facto discrimination in the liberal West along with some threat of violence anywhere at any time. Of course in much of the rest of the world gays of all kinds are still treated
horrifically.

All this said, though, I feel that quite a few well to do white liberal minded people in the West gravitate towards gay rights issues because, even if they are straight, they can imagine having a gay child or other family member, if they do not have one already, and so supporting gay rights does not require
the more difficult and uncomfortable work of dealing with the structures of white supremacy, patriarchy, and both local and global economic injustice that help maintain their comfortable lives.

Of course gay rights are hugely important. But even if some governments and corporations give lip service or perhaps more than lip service to liberating other oppressed groups, it seems to pale in comparison to how enthusiastically they wave pride flags all over the place. Is there any equivalent flag or symbol for another oppressed group that, in liberal cities and countries, is so uncontroversially plastered all over the place? (Despite the Trump administration’s recent efforts to reduce its display at US Embassies?

How is it that gay marriage, which seemed unimaginable just a decade or two ago in so many countries, became such a safe and cuddly thing for us well to do liberals (and quite a few conservatives) so fast while movements like Black Lives Matter and #metoo still make a lot of bleeding heart affluent white liberals much more uncomfortable (even if they won’t admit it)?

Are people like me who live on the backs of the oppressed and don’t do much about it (also like me) hiding behind our pride flags?
]]> Moved: Church Music - Legacy thread http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1768/moved-church-music-legacy-thread Mon, 17 Jun 2019 12:46:26 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1768@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> Special General Conference of the United Methodist Church to address LGBTQ+ ordination and marriage http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1307/special-general-conference-of-the-united-methodist-church-to-address-lgbtq-ordination-and-marriage Mon, 25 Feb 2019 01:18:57 +0000 Dead Horses Nick Tamen 1307@/index.php?p=/discussions
NPR’s report: United Methodist Church To Debate LGBTQ Clergy And Same-Sex Weddings]]> The Lord be with you, but not with her -or- Pastoral care for neanderthals http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1368/the-lord-be-with-you-but-not-with-her-or-pastoral-care-for-neanderthals Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:24:47 +0000 Dead Horses NOprophet_NØprofit 1368@/index.php?p=/discussions Let's accommodate a traditionalist guy. Should anyone care what people like him think?

Here's a media article. Craziness abounds.

Cathedral 'should help conservative worshippers avoid women priest-led services'

.

Gong!]]> Moved: Practical praying http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1621/moved-practical-praying Wed, 29 May 2019 16:24:55 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1621@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> Voting Pro-life http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/258/voting-pro-life Thu, 01 Mar 2018 17:55:28 +0000 Dead Horses mousethief 258@/index.php?p=/discussions
What does it mean to vote pro-life, particularly in the United States? Is merely voting for someone who mouths pro-life slogans enough? Voting for the Republicans, who want to turn your unthinking pro-life stance into gains for the rich and powerful?

Moreover, is it more important to you that abortion be rare, if legal, or illegal, however prevalent? Because making it illegal is not going to make it go away, and current Republican domestic policies are making it more and more desirable to women "in trouble."

You want to make abortion rare? You know how. It's not to make it illegal. It's to make contraceptives cheap and widely available, and discussion of them included in sex education. It's to provide pre- and post-natal care for pregnant women/new mothers. It's to allow women to take off time from work to tend to a new baby, and prevent them from being fired for doing so. It's to provide maternal health care, including paying for childbirth expenses. Each of these things will reduce the number of abortions. Each of these things has been fought tooth and nail by the right. It's almost as if they are TRYING to create more abortions. Odd that.

Abortion rates dip under Democratic presidents and go back up again under Republicans. This is historically demonstrable.

What is the best way to vote pro-life? Ulterior-motive lip service or actual reduction in the number of abortions?

It's not enough to say "I am pro-life therefore I vote Republican," unless one has totally turned off one's brain and is immune to all evidence and reasoning.

My wife once had an honest conversation with a so-called pro-lifer. He admitted flat out that he doesn't care how many abortions there are, as long as it's illegal. Thankfully he is (one hopes!) in the minority among pro-lifers. ]]> Many a Dead Horse http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1467/many-a-dead-horse Sat, 13 Apr 2019 02:29:30 +0000 Dead Horses Brother Jude 1467@/index.php?p=/discussions
The Apostles' Creed (Ecumenical version)
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of the Father, and will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Each morning I pray, through song, the prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi. This prayer describes perfectly what I strive to live every day of my life.

I believe that, when God sits in judgment of all mankind, He will judge all sins as equal; save one, that being the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which entails the denial of His power, the willful ignorance of His work in the lives of men (and women), or the intentional attribution of His power to something other than Him. I hold to this belief because I have personally witnessed, and had others witness to the power of our Lord to provide the sinner, no matter the sin, with unlimited forgiveness, peace with no end, and reconciliation with those who have been made victim of that sin. I also hold to this because I have seen what the separation of sins bears into the lives of those who subscribe to such. The prejudice, pre-judgments, judgments, derision, division, self-flagellation, and general air of better than thous that this belief brings with it would seem, in my humble opinion, to be contrary to all that Christ taught and stood for.

I believe in demonic possession and in widespread demonic activity in the world today. I would suggest that almost all, if not all, major diseases, disabilities, and addictions can be attributed to one of the above. Another cause in my opinion comes from the human mind itself. A person can disable, deform, sicken, or otherwise wreak havoc on their physical body simply by dwelling too intensely on things like personal tragedy, grief, hatred, etc. Then there are curses from God Himself. This one is widely spoken of biblically, especially in the OT, and I've encountered no reason why we should believe them no longer applicable. It takes discernment in the HS to determine which thing is the cause, which can only be gained through prayer and biblical study. Why do I believe these things? Aside from seeing prime examples in the bible itself I have personally encountered people who are plagued by each and have seen what God can and will do when the cause is dealt with correctly and in a spirit of humility and confidence in the redeeming power of our Lord. I do know that personal testimony and assertion is not seen as a reliable form of evidence scientifically but this is all I can offer and I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I believe that Christian action is the truest way in which we can emulate Christ. In my opinion 1,000 words on Christ are worth less than a single action done in for others in His love, grace, humility, and passion. When I look at the story of Jesus' life I see that almost every time He sought to spread the Good News He did so by first acting, and allowing the ripples of that action to spread and move whom they would. I have been blessed by God to find myself in a position to be able to devote my life to the sole purpose of helping those that He puts in my path to help.

I believe in one universal church. Dogma and religious ideals only serve to divorce us from our bridegroom. It is my belief that when we are called to account we will be judged not on who performed baptism or communion correctly but on how closely each of us walked with our Lord and obeyed His commands.

I believe that abortion is a sin, no matter the circumstances. To note I did not always advocate this. In fact I encouraged abortion with my first and third child, admittedly with much trepidation. A brief example, if you will, concerning my third son. Before he was born we, my ex wife and I, were informed that he had an 80% chance of death, and if he were to survive the birthing there was a 50/50 chance that he would suffer from the effects of a genetic disease called Myotubular Myopathy (for full details please feel free to look it up) and 100% chance he would be a carrier. If he suffered it would be from an inability to breathe alone, an inability to eat alone........suffice to say it deforms the muscle cells and causes extreme dysfunction in them. I agrred with my ex at first to abort but something made me change my mind, likely the desire to not suffer the death of yet a third son. He was born fully effected. They gave him a month to live, then a year, then 5, then 15. He is still here 5 years later. In my humble opinion, though my original motives were undeniably selfish, to abort a child is to deny God's plan for that child's life. No one except God can tell where that child will be in 15 years, who's lives he or she will effect, how they may bring glory to Him. Don't worry I'm prepared to be ripped apart for this but there it is.

I believe that homosexuality is a choice and a sin. Each homosexual person I've known can trace their desires back to prior instances and factors in their lives. The choice may be so buried that it has become subconscious but as far as I have seen it is there. Besides that if homosexuality weren't a sin why is God's Word so against it? Because it was written by bigoted man? Because God is a bigot? Some other reason?

I believe that the bible is literal, metaphorical, allegorical, living, and true all at one time. No reasoning here. I just feel it in my soul.

Last but not least I believe that as a Christian it is my duty and my blessing to walk in step with Christ. Where there is hate, I will combat it with love, where there is fear, with hope. All are my brothers and sisters. Will I weep for those lost in sin? Yes, at times uncontrollably. Will I judge them unworthy? No for how can I, when Christ could love one such as I? Will He punish those who choose the wide path? No, for they punish themselves, He only grants what is asked for.

I could go on but it has taken enough time to write this and I am tired.

Thanks for reading
Brother Jude]]> How Close to Death is Close Enough? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1445/how-close-to-death-is-close-enough Thu, 04 Apr 2019 17:20:47 +0000 Dead Horses Crœsos 1445@/index.php?p=/discussions

‘Not Dead Enough’

When she arrived at the public hospital in Texas, the woman was so sick she couldn’t walk. About four months pregnant, she needed an abortion to save her life. A previous pregnancy had led to heart failure. This time she faced a higher risk of death from cardiac arrest that increased as the pregnancy advanced.

But the hospital’s leadership denied her the abortion she needed.

“It was decided that she was not going to be dying at that moment,” Dr. Ghazaleh Moayedi, who cared for the patient, told Rewire.News. “It really was almost a cruel joke: that she wasn’t really dead enough to warrant intervention.”

Many of the poorest and sickest patients end up at public hospitals when their pregnancies go wrong. But little-known laws in 11 states — Arizona, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and Texas — prohibit abortion care in various kinds of public facilities, according to an analysis conducted by the Guttmacher Institute for Rewire.News. Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, Oklahoma, and Pennsylvania allow exceptions to the laws for victims of rape or incest, but the latter three states require the crime be reported to authorities. Only Mississippi and Texas make allowances in cases where the fetus can’t survive. Although exceptions exist in all 11 states if a patient’s life is in danger, hospital officials are free to interpret what that means and thereby deny abortion care to the sick and dying.

I recommend the rest of the article. It's lengthy but well written.

This seems like a common approach among those wishing to re-criminalize abortion. They'll usually include exceptions to whatever restrictions they put in place for cases where a woman's life is in immediate danger from continuing a pregnancy, but "immediate danger" is a medically imprecise term of little use to either medical professionals or hospital administrators. So how close to death is close enough, and how much risk (beyond the baseline risk of a pregnancy with no obvious complications) is risky enough for the "life of the woman" exception to kick in? And why is this a matter that's best decided by legislators and lobbyists rather than patients and doctors?]]> Is fundamentalism a cult? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1409/is-fundamentalism-a-cult Sun, 24 Mar 2019 17:24:25 +0000 Dead Horses Schroedingers Cat 1409@/index.php?p=/discussions
Recently, I have read Rebecca Stott "In the days or rain" - a really interesting biographical insight into her family who were hvery eavily involved in the Exclusive Brethren, through the 1960s when they had a period where they became dangerous far more cultish than usual. The view from this is that the more extreme forms of the Brethren ideas are cultish (and abusive and vile).

I also read Vicky Beechings Undivided which explores the terrible abusive cultish tendencies of the fundamentalist church in the US, and how they shunned her when she came out as gay.

And it is also my own experiences in the evangelical church, the more conservative end of which I have seen display abusive tendencies, and narrowly manged to avoid. Mostly. Because i have been involved in cultish groups.

So why is this important? Because I think the Fundamentalist (or at least conservatives) have been behind Trump and Brexit, at least they reflect the religious backing these have. And it feels different that they are supported by a particular group of Christians and they are supported by a religious cult. The latter reflects better the danger of these groups.

Thoughts? I don't think this has been done before. And I am not trying to get at anyone, because one important aspect of a cult is that most people involved are to an extent duped. It is the leadership who have culpability.]]> What is True in the Bible ? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1405/what-is-true-in-the-bible Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:27:21 +0000 Dead Horses Rublev 1405@/index.php?p=/discussions
I am wondering particularly about the Creation story in Genesis 1 (which appears to be a myth) and the books of Ruth, Jonah, Esther and Daniel (which appear to be moral fables or literary constructs).

Does it matter if a text is only a literary construct or can it still be regarded as being inspired scripture (2 Tim 3: 16-17; 2 Peter 1: 21; John 10: 35) ?

How can we determine the truth of what is written in the Bible ? ]]> Why is the belief in Biblical inerrancy important to people? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1220/why-is-the-belief-in-biblical-inerrancy-important-to-people Mon, 28 Jan 2019 04:28:33 +0000 Dead Horses LatchKeyKid 1220@/index.php?p=/discussions
I don't want any discussion on the Dead Horse topic of Biblical inerrancy, but I would like to know why some people find it an important subject to convince others of the truth or falseness of the belief, or understand why others think it is.

For myself, the long step from interpreting the Bible to deciding how I should act in my particular circumstances, which is the enactment of my belief, renders Biblical inerrancy to be a less important matter, or even negating its value altogether. And this would still be the case even should the faith tradition regard itself as having the authoritative interpretation. And, as an extreme example, I would not submit to e.g. voting the way a church leader told me to vote.

So, what is your thinking on this? Please do not stray into Dead Horse territory.]]> Supreme Court & the case of the SSM cake http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/199/supreme-court-amp-the-case-of-the-ssm-cake Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:57:22 +0000 Dead Horses Barnabas62 199@/index.php?p=/discussions Here is a link to this recently active thread if you want to continue discussions.]]> Moved: Biblical Inerrancy - Legacy thread http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1770/moved-biblical-inerrancy-legacy-thread Sun, 24 Feb 2019 09:13:24 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1770@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> created by God http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1254/created-by-god Fri, 08 Feb 2019 13:43:28 +0000 Dead Horses SusanDoris 1254@/index.php?p=/discussions

we are all here because God has created us and put us here.

I understand of course that that is what many of you here believe, but it does raise the question of when it is believed that God did the creating of us, so I hope there can be some discussion on this. Maybe it has been done before, in which case, perhaps someone will be kind enough to point me in that direction. Thank you. ]]> The Evolution of Morality http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1221/the-evolution-of-morality Mon, 28 Jan 2019 08:07:24 +0000 Dead Horses System 1221@/index.php?p=/discussions Biblical Inerrancy - Legacy thread.]]> Moved: Creation and Evolution - Legacy thread http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1769/moved-creation-and-evolution-legacy-thread Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:22:18 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1769@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> Christian Concern makes the news again... http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1080/christian-concern-makes-the-news-again Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:40:51 +0000 Dead Horses Boogie 1080@/index.php?p=/discussions Christian parent threatens legal action over school's 'gay pride parade’.

I need another word other than ‘Christian’ to describe my faith

The word ‘Christian’ now has a meaning I never want to associate with.

]]> OT Difficulties - a Dead Horse diversion http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/997/ot-difficulties-a-dead-horse-diversion Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:44:46 +0000 Dead Horses System 997@/index.php?p=/discussions I have a problem with the OT.]]> Moved: The Role of Women in Church and Households - Legacy thread http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/1772/moved-the-role-of-women-in-church-and-households-legacy-thread Mon, 20 Aug 2018 22:13:14 +0000 Dead Horses Eutychus 1772@/index.php?p=/discussions moved.]]> American Renegade Nuns? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/844/american-renegade-nuns Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:59:57 +0000 Dead Horses Pangolin Guerre 844@/index.php?p=/discussions
Any information would be appreciated.]]> Shall we continue counting? http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/784/shall-we-continue-counting Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:33:17 +0000 Dead Horses LeRoc 784@/index.php?p=/discussions Cuba's new constitution paves way for same-sex marriage]]> Same-sex marriage in Australia http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/200/same-sex-marriage-in-australia Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:00:24 +0000 Dead Horses Barnabas62 200@/index.php?p=/discussions Here is a link to this recently active thread if you wish to continue discussions.]]> Roman Catholic Church and Creationism http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/463/roman-catholic-church-and-creationism Wed, 04 Apr 2018 14:04:57 +0000 Dead Horses Thatcheright 463@/index.php?p=/discussions
Can anyone explain what the Roman Catholic Church’s official position is on young Earth Creationism? I suspect they reject it and that the RCC’s official stance is that the Big Bang is probably correct, that the universe is circa 14 billion years old and the Earth is about 5 billion years old, and that the best explanation for life being as we see it today is genetics and evolution.

In other words, their official position is that God is not involved in creation in the way that is literally described in the Bible.

I use the word “official” deliberately to distinguish between the Church and individual Roman Catholics, who will presumably have views ranging from Big-Bang, old universe types, through to Biblically-inerrant YECists.

I don’t know if IngoB is still around but he may know, but if not I hope someone can help.

I’m Anglo-Catholic but would like to know what the official position is for the Church that arguably represents the majority of the worlds Christians – I could look it up, but I don’t know where to start, nor how long that would take, and I promised someone that I would try to find the answer out as quickly as possible. I think the Ship is the quickest way possible providing that my laziness is overlooked!

Thank you.]]> All scripture is given by inspiration of God http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/201/all-scripture-is-given-by-inspiration-of-god Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:03:46 +0000 Dead Horses Barnabas62 201@/index.php?p=/discussions Here is a link to this recently active thread if you wish to continue discussions. ]]> Welcome! http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/202/welcome Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:16:01 +0000 Dead Horses Barnabas62 202@/index.php?p=/discussions
To give us a start - and to make sure a lot of excellent previous discussions don't get lost - we've provided links to the old site for the long running threads on Dead Horses topics, and you're free to add to them.

We've also provided links to the three threads on the old site which have received posts in February.

Please feel free to start new threads, or transfer links to other threads if you would like to restart them.

A new feature of the forum is that we've provided a thread containing the Dead Horse guidelines, to make them easily accessible. The Hosts for the Board are also listed in that thread.

Feel free to carry on the endless discussions without resolution!
]]> The Dead Horses Book Repository http://forums.shipoffools.com/index.php?p=/discussion/197/the-dead-horses-book-repository Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:25:44 +0000 Dead Horses Barnabas62 197@/index.php?p=/discussions Here is a link to the thread on the old website.

Feel free to add details of new books to this thread. ]]>