The consistent argument I will present it that armchair critics are pointless - have virtually no value. That on political matters it is irrelevant whether you bang on your computer saying how much you dislike, disagree with or oppose any politicians or policy enacted by them. What matters is election results and inbetween opinion polls. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is also by and large irrelevant. It is, what it is.
Except that's not what you've said. You've been thoroughly inconsistent.
Your argument is also fatuous because it implies that real-world outcomes of bad but popular policies don't matter. However, until you get to a consistent argument, there's no point in discussing that.
And finally, while I have no illusions about the size of my potential audience, one of the fundamental principles of democracy is that people can change their minds - that on important issues, if you believe something, you should try to persuade other people of that position. It's called democratic debate. But what you've just posited it that there's no point because Johnson is popular right now, he must be right. I mean, it's nearly as idiotic as might equals right. Now I happen to know a little about viral epidemiology thus I can see how government policy is wrong. Blatantly wrong.
Not because it is popular or unpopular but because it will result in more deaths. Is that not objective enough for you?
As I said, please come back with an argument that's at least internally consistent, because until you do, you're just making yourself look silly.
AFZ
No, i've not been inconsistent at all. Arguments from authority are meaningless particularly from those who simply state they "know something about this". It really really doesnt matter what you think. Saying something is "blatantly wrong" is just another armchair bore thinking they are more intelligent than others. What matters is how people vote. This is fact.
So you want to argue that only election results matter - as I and others have said there are serious problems with this proposition. But seeing as that's clearly not what you actually believe anyway, what's the point?
As I said, your posts are boring and pointless.
Moreover, whilst I'll forgive you for accusing me of arguing from authority on this occasion, you clearly haven't read any of my posts on the Coronovirus thread, where I provided all sorts of links to the evidence of how atrocious a job our government is doing. Hence I think there's a very good argument to be made here that some things other than election results might be important when considering how good a Prime Minister someone is... like excess mortality for example!
But once again, seeing as you haven't even managed an internally consistent argument yet, it's not surprising that you haven't managed to grasp that there might be other things to consider other than electoral success. And we haven't even discussed the distorting effects of various electoral systems. For example, who won the 1951 election? Was it Mr Atlee with 13,948,385 votes or Mr Churchill with 13,717,851 votes?
But you carry banging on about how great Boris is because of the December 2019 result, as if that makes him immune to criticism when thousands more people died than needed to. It remains boring and pointless (and deeply offensive) but you seem to enjoy it.
Apologies, my argument is not about silencing political discussion. It's more about the utter stupidity and pointlessness of being ultra critical. I wouldnt want to prevent it at all, its one of our (conservatives) best tactics in helping to pursuade the "middle" and the floating voters. Long may the antis spout. Absolute vote winner that one.
So you simultaneously say you want us to be critical of government, but also want to discourage us from being so critical of government? Uh huh. That's a pretty transparent tactic. And it's not difficult to see through.
And honestly? I'm absolutely certain that if there was a Labour PM at the moment, you'd be screaming like a stuck pig.
It's such a long time since we had a Labour govt (praise the lord) but I tend to support the govt that has been democratically elected, voted for Brown in 2010, alas it was left to others to clear up his mess. Armchair critics.....meh/pointless. So you're almost certainly wrong in your assessment....but do crack on.
Perhaps you could put yourself up for election at the next opportunity and see how you fair?
As many here will know, two members of the branch put themselves forward and the other was selected as our candidate. If not for that exercise of democracy within the party I'd have been standing in December, I'll almost certainly be standing for election at the next council elections in a couple of years.
Nice try.
Which party? And what was the result?
Does it matter, you suggested I needed to put myself forward for elected office. Which I have confirmed I've already done. How did you do standing for election?
The consistent argument I will present it that armchair critics are pointless - have virtually no value. That on political matters it is irrelevant whether you bang on your computer saying how much you dislike, disagree with or oppose any politicians or policy enacted by them. What matters is election results and inbetween opinion polls. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is also by and large irrelevant. It is, what it is.
No. What matters is election results AND a mature democracy which includes voting and holding to account those who are voted for. However, it has been some time since anything that grown up has gone on in British government, so it's little wonder so many seem content to settle for the thinly veiled populist dictatorship that's been shaping up so nicely since the shitfest that is Brexit hit the islands.
The consistent argument I will present it that armchair critics are pointless - have virtually no value. That on political matters it is irrelevant whether you bang on your computer saying how much you dislike, disagree with or oppose any politicians or policy enacted by them. What matters is election results and inbetween opinion polls. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is also by and large irrelevant. It is, what it is.
No. What matters is election results AND a mature democracy which includes voting and holding to account those who are voted for. However, it has been some time since anything that grown up has gone on in British government, so it's little wonder so many seem content to settle for the thinly veiled populist dictatorship that's been shaping up so nicely since the shitfest that is Brexit hit the islands.
Perhaps you could put yourself up for election at the next opportunity and see how you fair?
As many here will know, two members of the branch put themselves forward and the other was selected as our candidate. If not for that exercise of democracy within the party I'd have been standing in December, I'll almost certainly be standing for election at the next council elections in a couple of years.
Nice try.
Which party? And what was the result?
Does it matter, you suggested I needed to put myself forward for elected office. Which I have confirmed I've already done. How did you do standing for election?
For Labour. Came 7th out of 7.
5 out of 6 ... probably would have been the same position if I'd been the candidate rather than agent. Does that mean I'm better 'cos I (or the candidate I was agent for) did better?
The consistent argument I will present it that armchair critics are pointless - have virtually no value. That on political matters it is irrelevant whether you bang on your computer saying how much you dislike, disagree with or oppose any politicians or policy enacted by them. What matters is election results and inbetween opinion polls. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is also by and large irrelevant. It is, what it is.
Except that's not what you've said. You've been thoroughly inconsistent.
Your argument is also fatuous because it implies that real-world outcomes of bad but popular policies don't matter. However, until you get to a consistent argument, there's no point in discussing that.
And finally, while I have no illusions about the size of my potential audience, one of the fundamental principles of democracy is that people can change their minds - that on important issues, if you believe something, you should try to persuade other people of that position. It's called democratic debate. But what you've just posited it that there's no point because Johnson is popular right now, he must be right. I mean, it's nearly as idiotic as might equals right. Now I happen to know a little about viral epidemiology thus I can see how government policy is wrong. Blatantly wrong.
Not because it is popular or unpopular but because it will result in more deaths. Is that not objective enough for you?
As I said, please come back with an argument that's at least internally consistent, because until you do, you're just making yourself look silly.
AFZ
No, i've not been inconsistent at all. Arguments from authority are meaningless particularly from those who simply state they "know something about this". It really really doesnt matter what you think. Saying something is "blatantly wrong" is just another armchair bore thinking they are more intelligent than others. What matters is how people vote. This is fact.
So you want to argue that only election results matter - as I and others have said there are serious problems with this proposition. But seeing as that's clearly not what you actually believe anyway, what's the point?
As I said, your posts are boring and pointless.
Moreover, whilst I'll forgive you for accusing me of arguing from authority on this occasion, you clearly haven't read any of my posts on the Coronovirus thread, where I provided all sorts of links to the evidence of how atrocious a job our government is doing. Hence I think there's a very good argument to be made here that some things other than election results might be important when considering how good a Prime Minister someone is... like excess mortality for example!
But once again, seeing as you haven't even managed an internally consistent argument yet, it's not surprising that you haven't managed to grasp that there might be other things to consider other than electoral success. And we haven't even discussed the distorting effects of various electoral systems. For example, who won the 1951 election? Was it Mr Atlee with 13,948,385 votes or Mr Churchill with 13,717,851 votes?
But you carry banging on about how great Boris is because of the December 2019 result, as if that makes him immune to criticism when thousands more people died than needed to. It remains boring and pointless (and deeply offensive) but you seem to enjoy it.
AFZ
You need to spend more time saving the world as someone who is an expert....you're wasting your time here.
I think I'm going to go with my initial judgement.
And to think my shipmates have been berating me for not being convinced by the assertion that tories are decent, rational people. Thank you, MrMandid, for being an excellent exemplar of your species.
I think I'm going to go with my initial judgement.
And to think my shipmates have been berating me for not being convinced by the assertion that tories are decent, rational people. Thank you, MrMandid, for being an excellent exemplar of your species.
Whatever flouts your self righteous boat, you do that old bean.
Meanwhile - assuming this video is genuine - his contradictory advice has already been disastrous: https://tinyurl.com/ychzpjjz
The video is genuine, but possibly misleading due to the lens used. You can see the whole 125m-long train in a single picture, and that will inevitably make people appear closer together than they are.
The consistent argument I will present it that armchair critics are pointless - have virtually no value. That on political matters it is irrelevant whether you bang on your computer saying how much you dislike, disagree with or oppose any politicians or policy enacted by them. What matters is election results and inbetween opinion polls. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is also by and large irrelevant. It is, what it is.
Except that's not what you've said. You've been thoroughly inconsistent.
Your argument is also fatuous because it implies that real-world outcomes of bad but popular policies don't matter. However, until you get to a consistent argument, there's no point in discussing that.
And finally, while I have no illusions about the size of my potential audience, one of the fundamental principles of democracy is that people can change their minds - that on important issues, if you believe something, you should try to persuade other people of that position. It's called democratic debate. But what you've just posited it that there's no point because Johnson is popular right now, he must be right. I mean, it's nearly as idiotic as might equals right. Now I happen to know a little about viral epidemiology thus I can see how government policy is wrong. Blatantly wrong.
Not because it is popular or unpopular but because it will result in more deaths. Is that not objective enough for you?
As I said, please come back with an argument that's at least internally consistent, because until you do, you're just making yourself look silly.
AFZ
No, i've not been inconsistent at all. Arguments from authority are meaningless particularly from those who simply state they "know something about this". It really really doesnt matter what you think. Saying something is "blatantly wrong" is just another armchair bore thinking they are more intelligent than others. What matters is how people vote. This is fact.
So you want to argue that only election results matter - as I and others have said there are serious problems with this proposition. But seeing as that's clearly not what you actually believe anyway, what's the point?
As I said, your posts are boring and pointless.
Moreover, whilst I'll forgive you for accusing me of arguing from authority on this occasion, you clearly haven't read any of my posts on the Coronovirus thread, where I provided all sorts of links to the evidence of how atrocious a job our government is doing. Hence I think there's a very good argument to be made here that some things other than election results might be important when considering how good a Prime Minister someone is... like excess mortality for example!
But once again, seeing as you haven't even managed an internally consistent argument yet, it's not surprising that you haven't managed to grasp that there might be other things to consider other than electoral success. And we haven't even discussed the distorting effects of various electoral systems. For example, who won the 1951 election? Was it Mr Atlee with 13,948,385 votes or Mr Churchill with 13,717,851 votes?
But you carry banging on about how great Boris is because of the December 2019 result, as if that makes him immune to criticism when thousands more people died than needed to. It remains boring and pointless (and deeply offensive) but you seem to enjoy it.
AFZ
You need to spend more time saving the world as someone who is an expert....you're wasting your time here.
Wow even when you're trying to be sarcastic and funny, you still manage to be completely wrong.
For the record, I mostly post on the ship because I enjoy it and it's good for my mental health. But there is another side to this.
One of the things I was taught at medical school is that all doctors have a responsibility for public health. That we have a duty to speak out and help to inform about key things that impact on people's health. A good example of this is that button batteries are really dangerous for small children if swallowed. If they pass into the stomach they're essentially safe, if they get stuck in the oesophagus they are often fatal.* As a paediatric surgeon, one of things I do is fish button batteries out of children's gullets. So in all sorts of forums I and many of my colleagues will share warnings about the dangers of button batteries to small children. Never leave button batteries (the ones that are flat and about 2cm in diameter) where a small child might get hold of them.
So, even though some people clearly don't want to listen, it is never a waste of time to share what I know. So in whichever forum I find myself (including chatting to a friend who is an off-camera reporter for CNN) I share what I know. Simple things like how the government's statements on testing and PPE are completely and totally at odds with what is actually happening on the front line... Explaining the underlying science around viral epidemiology and vaccines in ways that I hope help people to understand... Jesus famously said that The Truth will set you free. I am sure he was talking specifically about the Truth about him. However, I also think it's generally true. Truth is really powerful. If people like you could see the truth of the how the country and NHS is coping with the pandemic compared to the lies spewing from Mr Johnson, presumably even you're smart enough to stop supporting him...
Interestingly though, I see how you have grappled with the issues I raised by ignoring them completely. This is why your posts are boring and pointless.
AFZ
*They burn through the oesophagus because the secretions are sufficiently ionic to complete the circuit, causing electrical burns. The batteries cause perforations to the oesophagus which in itself can be fatal but I have also seen them damage the vocal cords causing loss of the airway and I have seen one cause an oesophageal-aortic fistula (connection with the aorta) which causes a catastrophic bleed. Amazingly that child survived although she had to have both her oesophagus and aorta repaired.
Never leave button batteries (the ones that are flat and about 2cm in diameter) where a small child might get hold of them.
The same, by the way, goes for small magnets. You can swallow one small magnet without issue. Swallow two, and the odds are that at some point they will find themselves in different parts of your intenstine trying to reconnect. That makes holes in places you really don't want holes to be.
Small neodymium magnets are particularly bad, because of their strength.
Never leave button batteries (the ones that are flat and about 2cm in diameter) where a small child might get hold of them.
The same, by the way, goes for small magnets. You can swallow one small magnet without issue. Swallow two, and the odds are that at some point they will find themselves in different parts of your intenstine trying to reconnect. That makes holes in places you really don't want holes to be.
Small neodymium magnets are particularly bad, because of their strength.
Good point. We have a patient at the moment who swallowed multiple magnets. I have previously seen 8 bowel perforations caused by ingesting multiple magnets...
I have been impressed (depressed) by these first-person frontline accounts of what is actually happening in hospitals, GP practices and care homes. It puts flesh on the statistics and casts a sorry light on our national state of preparedness, and the platitudinous utterances of ministers and their departments.
The consistent argument I will present it that armchair critics are pointless - have virtually no value. That on political matters it is irrelevant whether you bang on your computer saying how much you dislike, disagree with or oppose any politicians or policy enacted by them. What matters is election results and inbetween opinion polls. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is also by and large irrelevant. It is, what it is.
No. What matters is election results AND a mature democracy which includes voting and holding to account those who are voted for. However, it has been some time since anything that grown up has gone on in British government, so it's little wonder so many seem content to settle for the thinly veiled populist dictatorship that's been shaping up so nicely since the shitfest that is Brexit hit the islands.
But you are "grown up"......sighs
Personally? Haven't a clue. But whether I am or not I do have my own opinions on how I'd like politicians to serve the electorate. Eg, I think it's important for those elected, to be held to account for their decisions. I think that that is a sign of a grown-up democracy, when accountability of politicians is taken seriously. I'm sure others must think so, too. And I don't think individual 'grown-upness' need have anything to do with it. I think mature, smart, intelligent people can find themselves accepting puerile political life as being the norm. I just don't understand why or how.
I grew up in a country where politics was either a sick joke or a dangerous topic to be avoided. Westminster, by contrast, looked grown up, robust, morally and politically rigorous, free by comparison. It's just a mystery to me to see how it has deteriorated and degenerated into a really sad caricature of a once statesmanlike institution that the world to a greater degree could admire and look to for an international lead in important global affairs.
Is that the fault of the electorate or those who are elected? Or both? Or a combination of a load of other factors? I'd say 'yes' to all those questions.
Never leave button batteries (the ones that are flat and about 2cm in diameter) where a small child might get hold of them.
The same, by the way, goes for small magnets. You can swallow one small magnet without issue. Swallow two, and the odds are that at some point they will find themselves in different parts of your intenstine trying to reconnect. That makes holes in places you really don't want holes to be.
Small neodymium magnets are particularly bad, because of their strength.
Good point. We have a patient at the moment who swallowed multiple magnets. I have previously seen 8 bowel perforations caused by ingesting multiple magnets...
[/more public health announcements]
Any relation to that guy who put all those magnets up his nose?
We don't see much of him on Canadian TV. But he has an odd way of speaking, as if he's got excessive muscle tone, jerky movement, jumpy-seeming in body. Over-confident in mind which guided him to decisiveness in the wrong direction. As if his sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems are fighting each other. Like a humidifier and dehumidifier in the same room fighting it out. Or a furnace and air conditioner.
Antisocial personality and ADHD often go together; of course I can't diagnose anyone, it's just that that's what it looks like.
We're not meant to be able to distinguish between playacting and fact, however, here's what I think: he plays dumb, but is highly intelligent, but only uses that intelligence towards ends that aren't conventionally valued: manipulation, in a word.
So the mixed messaging - with the meaningless slogan and the sign accent colour changing from red to green - was meant to confuse, but also, nobody in government knows what the fuck they're doing. I mean I'm sure the galaxy brains among them may think they know, but the reality still is that they wouldn't be able to do this stuff right if they tried.
They may be governing well on behalf of whoever they report to (their funders, one of whom said straight out on the Sky interview that he wants the lockdown lifted, which is why the phrase "following the science" is not heard any more) but if they wanted to function as a government of the electorate they wouldn't be able to. So in a sense you could say they're good at the one thing they use as a benchmark - winning elections - but there's probably some governing involved, it's just not the kind of governing that has anything to do with the public interest.
Interestingly though, I see how you have grappled with the issues I raised by ignoring them completely. This is why your posts are boring and pointless.
The consistent argument I will present it that armchair critics are pointless - have virtually no value. That on political matters it is irrelevant whether you bang on your computer saying how much you dislike, disagree with or oppose any politicians or policy enacted by them. What matters is election results and inbetween opinion polls. Whether this is "right" or "wrong" is also by and large irrelevant. It is, what it is.
No. What matters is election results AND a mature democracy which includes voting and holding to account those who are voted for. However, it has been some time since anything that grown up has gone on in British government, so it's little wonder so many seem content to settle for the thinly veiled populist dictatorship that's been shaping up so nicely since the shitfest that is Brexit hit the islands.
But you are "grown up"......sighs
Personally? Haven't a clue. But whether I am or not I do have my own opinions on how I'd like politicians to serve the electorate. Eg, I think it's important for those elected, to be held to account for their decisions. I think that that is a sign of a grown-up democracy, when accountability of politicians is taken seriously. I'm sure others must think so, too. And I don't think individual 'grown-upness' need have anything to do with it. I think mature, smart, intelligent people can find themselves accepting puerile political life as being the norm. I just don't understand why or how.
I grew up in a country where politics was either a sick joke or a dangerous topic to be avoided. Westminster, by contrast, looked grown up, robust, morally and politically rigorous, free by comparison. It's just a mystery to me to see how it has deteriorated and degenerated into a really sad caricature of a once statesmanlike institution that the world to a greater degree could admire and look to for an international lead in important global affairs.
Is that the fault of the electorate or those who are elected? Or both? Or a combination of a load of other factors? I'd say 'yes' to all those questions.
How do you work out though that it is YOU who understands and "gets it" but the rest of the electorate that are at fault?
Apologies, haven't figured out yet how to part quote.
Well at least your miserable failure made a pretty pattern on the screen.
Maybe your first post should have been here, not in Hell. It's not too late to avail yourself of that thread now, either. It would certainly reduce your target area and demonstrate a bit of respect for the environment you've landed in.
Apologies, haven't figured out yet how to part quote.
So many things you're incapable of doing, and that's the one you apologise for?
As insults go that's in the poor category.
Better than your thinking skills, nonetheless.
Meh. Still an in the "poor insult" category I'm afraid. Do crack on though, i'll just look at the last election result and the opinion polls. Happy days.
Apologies, haven't figured out yet how to part quote.
Well at least your miserable failure made a pretty pattern on the screen.
Maybe your first post should have been here, not in Hell. It's not too late to avail yourself of that thread now, either. It would certainly reduce your target area and demonstrate a bit of respect for the environment you've landed in.
I think the miserable failure is wrongly directed. I think the Labour Party is the correct target.
Apologies, haven't figured out yet how to part quote.
So many things you're incapable of doing, and that's the one you apologise for?
Well, at least he can apologise when he makes a complete cock-up of quoting on a bulletin board. Now, if only his hero Mr Johnson can learn how to apologise for the cock-ups which have killed 10s of thousands of people.
Is it me or have we got a lower quality of Troll these days?
It is of course natural for regulars on forums to complain and call people trolls who dare say something that they disagree with. It's quite an arrogant position to assume, but if it makes you feel good, crack on. Have a look at the last election result and subsequent opinion polls and personal ratings of Boris if you are in any doubt regarding the validity of comments I make. x
Is it me or have we got a lower quality of Troll these days?
It is of course natural for regulars on forums to complain and call people trolls who dare say something that they disagree with. It's quite an arrogant position to assume, but if it makes you feel good, crack on. Have a look at the last election result and subsequent opinion polls and personal ratings of Boris if you are in any doubt regarding the validity of comments I make. x
Or you could acknowledge what I wrote above about how your argument with which I find great fault isn't even internally consistent... or call me arrogant for expecting you to be able to support an argument - that's how debate works. You seem to think that people are unaware of the election result, which is a really odd position to hold.
Is it me or have we got a lower quality of Troll these days?
It is of course natural for regulars on forums to complain and call people trolls who dare say something that they disagree with. It's quite an arrogant position to assume, but if it makes you feel good, crack on. Have a look at the last election result and subsequent opinion polls and personal ratings of Boris if you are in any doubt regarding the validity of comments I make. x
Or you could acknowledge what I wrote above about how your argument with which I find great fault isn't even internally consistent... or call me arrogant for expecting you to be able to support an argument - that's how debate works. You seem to think that people are unaware of the election result, which is a really odd position to hold.
Not at all. People will have a wide number of arguments/views about what "action NOW" should be. Some will favour X and some favour Y. And of course there will be a good number whose main contribution will be why X is wrong. But what really counts is how people vote. You can argue to your hearts content why X is wrong but unless you are in a position to change X to Y all you're doing is either meeting your own psychological need to cling to some sort of control or being a tosser.
The purpose of government is to govern, for the good of the people.
The purpose of government is NOT to be re-elected (though, of course, the party of government will want that).
If the government is unable to do the job they're supposed to be doing, in this case by not killing 10s of thousands of British citizens, then they need to be opposed. I don't care about an election in a few years, I'll worry about that closer to the time, I don't care about an election 6 months ago. I care about incompetence and stupidity that is killing people TODAY.
The purpose of government is to govern, for the good of the people.
The purpose of government is NOT to be re-elected (though, of course, the party of government will want that).
If the government is unable to do the job they're supposed to be doing, in this case by not killing 10s of thousands of British citizens, then they need to be opposed. I don't care about an election in a few years, I'll worry about that closer to the time, I don't care about an election 6 months ago. I care about incompetence and stupidity that is killing people TODAY.
Well said Alan. Mr M you seem to only have one way of arguing. Election results. Well the winning party is one that gets the most sears nor the most votes. The Iron Lacy herself lead the Conservatives to victory despite more people voting against them. It is how the vote is split that counts.
You have no idea how a Labour government would react in today’s circumstances yet you keep putting them down. No wonder you are not taken seriously.
No I don’t dislike Boris because I don’t like his policies. I dislike Boris because I lived with him as mayor which he did a bad job of, was so incompetent at the Foreign Office that got an innocent British citizens sentence extended, and as PM is so obviously out of his depth he is drowning despite of his inflated ego.
Differing opinions are welcome here. You do have to be able to argue properly and not just keep coming up with same stuff all the time.
Well said Alan. Mr M you seem to only have one way of arguing. Election results. Well the winning party is one that gets the most sears nor the most votes. The Iron Lacy herself lead the Conservatives to victory despite more people voting against them. It is how the vote is split that counts.
You have no idea how a Labour government would react in today’s circumstances yet you keep putting them down. No wonder you are not taken seriously.
No I don’t dislike Boris because I don’t like his policies. I dislike Boris because I lived with him as mayor which he did a bad job of, was so incompetent at the Foreign Office that got an innocent British citizens sentence extended, and as PM is so obviously out of his depth he is drowning despite of his inflated ego.
Differing opinions are welcome here. You do have to be able to argue properly and not just keep coming up with same stuff all the time.
I couldn't give a flying fuck if I am taken seriously or not as if the comments by strangers on the internet swayed me one bit. (They don't). The truth is that for all the whinging and complaining and fault pointing that occurs, it's all utterly pointless. Offer your alternatives, get them elected and we will see how well they stand up to judgement. How about doing that?
I couldn't give a flying fuck if I am taken seriously or not as if the comments by strangers on the internet swayed me one bit. (They don't). The truth is that for all the whinging and complaining and fault pointing that occurs, it's all utterly pointless. Offer your alternatives, get them elected and we will see how well they stand up to judgement. How about doing that?
Then why are you here? You seem to have nothing to offer but scorn and and silly insults, and you have exactly one argument, with which you thrash others in a manner reminiscent of a toddler beating a sibling with a teddy bear: (the inept) Boris Johnson and his party won the last election. So what? That was then. What are they doing about the pandemic? How did they prepare for it, and how have they reacted to it? What are they doing to save the lives of their constituents and others?
Be as prolix as you like in their collective defense, but please park the election nonsense. We know that. Tell us what they have done to be worthy of anyone's respect in the face of the worst crisis in living memory. Surely you're up to the task.
The purpose of government is to govern, for the good of the people.
The purpose of government is NOT to be re-elected (though, of course, the party of government will want that).
If the government is unable to do the job they're supposed to be doing, in this case by not killing 10s of thousands of British citizens, then they need to be opposed. I don't care about an election in a few years, I'll worry about that closer to the time, I don't care about an election 6 months ago. I care about incompetence and stupidity that is killing people TODAY.
So what are you personally doing?
First, of course, I'm working from home (I'm fortunate that I can do that) and staying in as much as possible. Because the one thing we can all do is Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives.
I've been on the phone a lot talking with some of the local elderly folk through church contacts. There's an open invitation for any of them to call me if they need anything practical that I can do while socially distancing - but at present they've all been doing OK with the help of immediate neighbours. The more vulnerable folk who are my immediate neighbours all have a network of family living nearby who are doing their bit.
At present the local food bank has all the volunteers they need for making deliveries to those unable to get out to their regular collection points. I've been donating money rather than drop off food stuffs into the collection points at the supermarket (the shelves are still low on stock, though most stuff is there, and it means I'm not in the store for quite as long). As I've been actively involved in the local Challenge Poverty group for a few years, including administering the Facebook page, I've been keeping on top of what other local charities are doing and will step in to do what I can if there's a particular need. I'm not furloughed, if I was I'd be doing a lot more.
I've also been taking opportunities presented by the government and Parliaments to have my say on how things are progressing. There's a public consultation (which may have just closed) from the Scottish government on the easing of restrictions, which I participated in. The relevant Commons select committee also had an invitation for people to submit questions or comments that they could put to the government, and they also got my comments (that was at least a month back). Plus the usual petitions etc, and providing my opinions to my MP etc. And, participating in discussions here (which did include a moment of needing to vent frustration and get everyone to tell me I was being stupid ... sometimes that can be very cathartic).
And, finally. I've been staying in as much as possible. Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives.
Comments
Oh dear.
Try this:
1. Mr M declaring Churchill the greatest
2. Then this (same day): Mr M stating that (essentially) election results are the only measure of a Prime Minister (repeated today)
3. This admission about election record of 'The Greatest PM in 100 years': 1945 Election result for Churchill - a landslide IIRC
So you want to argue that only election results matter - as I and others have said there are serious problems with this proposition. But seeing as that's clearly not what you actually believe anyway, what's the point?
As I said, your posts are boring and pointless.
Moreover, whilst I'll forgive you for accusing me of arguing from authority on this occasion, you clearly haven't read any of my posts on the Coronovirus thread, where I provided all sorts of links to the evidence of how atrocious a job our government is doing. Hence I think there's a very good argument to be made here that some things other than election results might be important when considering how good a Prime Minister someone is... like excess mortality for example!
But once again, seeing as you haven't even managed an internally consistent argument yet, it's not surprising that you haven't managed to grasp that there might be other things to consider other than electoral success. And we haven't even discussed the distorting effects of various electoral systems. For example, who won the 1951 election? Was it Mr Atlee with 13,948,385 votes or Mr Churchill with 13,717,851 votes?
But you carry banging on about how great Boris is because of the December 2019 result, as if that makes him immune to criticism when thousands more people died than needed to. It remains boring and pointless (and deeply offensive) but you seem to enjoy it.
AFZ
It's such a long time since we had a Labour govt (praise the lord) but I tend to support the govt that has been democratically elected, voted for Brown in 2010, alas it was left to others to clear up his mess. Armchair critics.....meh/pointless. So you're almost certainly wrong in your assessment....but do crack on.
For Labour. Came 7th out of 7.
No. What matters is election results AND a mature democracy which includes voting and holding to account those who are voted for. However, it has been some time since anything that grown up has gone on in British government, so it's little wonder so many seem content to settle for the thinly veiled populist dictatorship that's been shaping up so nicely since the shitfest that is Brexit hit the islands.
But you are "grown up"......sighs
You need to spend more time saving the world as someone who is an expert....you're wasting your time here.
And to think my shipmates have been berating me for not being convinced by the assertion that tories are decent, rational people. Thank you, MrMandid, for being an excellent exemplar of your species.
Whatever flouts your self righteous boat, you do that old bean.
Wow even when you're trying to be sarcastic and funny, you still manage to be completely wrong.
For the record, I mostly post on the ship because I enjoy it and it's good for my mental health. But there is another side to this.
One of the things I was taught at medical school is that all doctors have a responsibility for public health. That we have a duty to speak out and help to inform about key things that impact on people's health. A good example of this is that button batteries are really dangerous for small children if swallowed. If they pass into the stomach they're essentially safe, if they get stuck in the oesophagus they are often fatal.* As a paediatric surgeon, one of things I do is fish button batteries out of children's gullets. So in all sorts of forums I and many of my colleagues will share warnings about the dangers of button batteries to small children. Never leave button batteries (the ones that are flat and about 2cm in diameter) where a small child might get hold of them.
So, even though some people clearly don't want to listen, it is never a waste of time to share what I know. So in whichever forum I find myself (including chatting to a friend who is an off-camera reporter for CNN) I share what I know. Simple things like how the government's statements on testing and PPE are completely and totally at odds with what is actually happening on the front line... Explaining the underlying science around viral epidemiology and vaccines in ways that I hope help people to understand... Jesus famously said that The Truth will set you free. I am sure he was talking specifically about the Truth about him. However, I also think it's generally true. Truth is really powerful. If people like you could see the truth of the how the country and NHS is coping with the pandemic compared to the lies spewing from Mr Johnson, presumably even you're smart enough to stop supporting him...
Interestingly though, I see how you have grappled with the issues I raised by ignoring them completely. This is why your posts are boring and pointless.
AFZ
*They burn through the oesophagus because the secretions are sufficiently ionic to complete the circuit, causing electrical burns. The batteries cause perforations to the oesophagus which in itself can be fatal but I have also seen them damage the vocal cords causing loss of the airway and I have seen one cause an oesophageal-aortic fistula (connection with the aorta) which causes a catastrophic bleed. Amazingly that child survived although she had to have both her oesophagus and aorta repaired.
The same, by the way, goes for small magnets. You can swallow one small magnet without issue. Swallow two, and the odds are that at some point they will find themselves in different parts of your intenstine trying to reconnect. That makes holes in places you really don't want holes to be.
Small neodymium magnets are particularly bad, because of their strength.
Good point. We have a patient at the moment who swallowed multiple magnets. I have previously seen 8 bowel perforations caused by ingesting multiple magnets...
[/more public health announcements]
A related question: Can't the man afford a hairbrush?
Personally? Haven't a clue. But whether I am or not I do have my own opinions on how I'd like politicians to serve the electorate. Eg, I think it's important for those elected, to be held to account for their decisions. I think that that is a sign of a grown-up democracy, when accountability of politicians is taken seriously. I'm sure others must think so, too. And I don't think individual 'grown-upness' need have anything to do with it. I think mature, smart, intelligent people can find themselves accepting puerile political life as being the norm. I just don't understand why or how.
I grew up in a country where politics was either a sick joke or a dangerous topic to be avoided. Westminster, by contrast, looked grown up, robust, morally and politically rigorous, free by comparison. It's just a mystery to me to see how it has deteriorated and degenerated into a really sad caricature of a once statesmanlike institution that the world to a greater degree could admire and look to for an international lead in important global affairs.
Is that the fault of the electorate or those who are elected? Or both? Or a combination of a load of other factors? I'd say 'yes' to all those questions.
Any relation to that guy who put all those magnets up his nose?
Antisocial personality and ADHD often go together; of course I can't diagnose anyone, it's just that that's what it looks like.
We're not meant to be able to distinguish between playacting and fact, however, here's what I think: he plays dumb, but is highly intelligent, but only uses that intelligence towards ends that aren't conventionally valued: manipulation, in a word.
So the mixed messaging - with the meaningless slogan and the sign accent colour changing from red to green - was meant to confuse, but also, nobody in government knows what the fuck they're doing. I mean I'm sure the galaxy brains among them may think they know, but the reality still is that they wouldn't be able to do this stuff right if they tried.
They may be governing well on behalf of whoever they report to (their funders, one of whom said straight out on the Sky interview that he wants the lockdown lifted, which is why the phrase "following the science" is not heard any more) but if they wanted to function as a government of the electorate they wouldn't be able to. So in a sense you could say they're good at the one thing they use as a benchmark - winning elections - but there's probably some governing involved, it's just not the kind of governing that has anything to do with the public interest.
So many things you're incapable of doing, and that's the one you apologise for?
How do you work out though that it is YOU who understands and "gets it" but the rest of the electorate that are at fault?
That was NOT a typo for clarity, BTW...
As insults go that's in the poor category.
Better than your thinking skills, nonetheless.
Maybe your first post should have been here, not in Hell. It's not too late to avail yourself of that thread now, either. It would certainly reduce your target area and demonstrate a bit of respect for the environment you've landed in.
Meh. Still an in the "poor insult" category I'm afraid. Do crack on though, i'll just look at the last election result and the opinion polls. Happy days.
I think the miserable failure is wrongly directed. I think the Labour Party is the correct target.
Is it me or have we got a lower quality of Troll these days?
And yet you continue to reply.
True. Not one.
Not sure; the "I'm so clever and everyone else is so stupid tee hee hee" type has been around for some years.
It is of course natural for regulars on forums to complain and call people trolls who dare say something that they disagree with. It's quite an arrogant position to assume, but if it makes you feel good, crack on. Have a look at the last election result and subsequent opinion polls and personal ratings of Boris if you are in any doubt regarding the validity of comments I make. x
Or you could acknowledge what I wrote above about how your argument with which I find great fault isn't even internally consistent... or call me arrogant for expecting you to be able to support an argument - that's how debate works. You seem to think that people are unaware of the election result, which is a really odd position to hold.
Hey-ho.
AFZ
And that is judged at the ballot box.
My argument is justified at the ballot box.
(signed)
C M O T Dibbler
Not at all. People will have a wide number of arguments/views about what "action NOW" should be. Some will favour X and some favour Y. And of course there will be a good number whose main contribution will be why X is wrong. But what really counts is how people vote. You can argue to your hearts content why X is wrong but unless you are in a position to change X to Y all you're doing is either meeting your own psychological need to cling to some sort of control or being a tosser.
The purpose of government is NOT to be re-elected (though, of course, the party of government will want that).
If the government is unable to do the job they're supposed to be doing, in this case by not killing 10s of thousands of British citizens, then they need to be opposed. I don't care about an election in a few years, I'll worry about that closer to the time, I don't care about an election 6 months ago. I care about incompetence and stupidity that is killing people TODAY.
So what are you personally doing?
You have no idea how a Labour government would react in today’s circumstances yet you keep putting them down. No wonder you are not taken seriously.
No I don’t dislike Boris because I don’t like his policies. I dislike Boris because I lived with him as mayor which he did a bad job of, was so incompetent at the Foreign Office that got an innocent British citizens sentence extended, and as PM is so obviously out of his depth he is drowning despite of his inflated ego.
Differing opinions are welcome here. You do have to be able to argue properly and not just keep coming up with same stuff all the time.
I couldn't give a flying fuck if I am taken seriously or not as if the comments by strangers on the internet swayed me one bit. (They don't). The truth is that for all the whinging and complaining and fault pointing that occurs, it's all utterly pointless. Offer your alternatives, get them elected and we will see how well they stand up to judgement. How about doing that?
Then why are you here? You seem to have nothing to offer but scorn and and silly insults, and you have exactly one argument, with which you thrash others in a manner reminiscent of a toddler beating a sibling with a teddy bear: (the inept) Boris Johnson and his party won the last election. So what? That was then. What are they doing about the pandemic? How did they prepare for it, and how have they reacted to it? What are they doing to save the lives of their constituents and others?
Be as prolix as you like in their collective defense, but please park the election nonsense. We know that. Tell us what they have done to be worthy of anyone's respect in the face of the worst crisis in living memory. Surely you're up to the task.
I've been on the phone a lot talking with some of the local elderly folk through church contacts. There's an open invitation for any of them to call me if they need anything practical that I can do while socially distancing - but at present they've all been doing OK with the help of immediate neighbours. The more vulnerable folk who are my immediate neighbours all have a network of family living nearby who are doing their bit.
At present the local food bank has all the volunteers they need for making deliveries to those unable to get out to their regular collection points. I've been donating money rather than drop off food stuffs into the collection points at the supermarket (the shelves are still low on stock, though most stuff is there, and it means I'm not in the store for quite as long). As I've been actively involved in the local Challenge Poverty group for a few years, including administering the Facebook page, I've been keeping on top of what other local charities are doing and will step in to do what I can if there's a particular need. I'm not furloughed, if I was I'd be doing a lot more.
I've also been taking opportunities presented by the government and Parliaments to have my say on how things are progressing. There's a public consultation (which may have just closed) from the Scottish government on the easing of restrictions, which I participated in. The relevant Commons select committee also had an invitation for people to submit questions or comments that they could put to the government, and they also got my comments (that was at least a month back). Plus the usual petitions etc, and providing my opinions to my MP etc. And, participating in discussions here (which did include a moment of needing to vent frustration and get everyone to tell me I was being stupid ... sometimes that can be very cathartic).
And, finally. I've been staying in as much as possible. Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives.
What about you?