Bro James White Supremacy thread - Let's discuss

What "Hellish level" and where?

Comments

  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    It might have something to do with you and Lamb Chopped crossing swords. Just a suggestion.
  • That was like, forever ago. Slow motion hosting?
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    We do have lives, you know.
  • Unreasonable that you should.
  • Seriously, though. It has been 3 days since LC posted. And 3 days since the most personal and vitriolic posts on the thread. Those by Rossweisse, in case you are wondering.
    I would like to know which posts are the genesis of the Host Post. This has a direct relevance to the thread, more so than is typical.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    This has a direct relevance to the thread, more so than is typical.

    It may simply be my under-caffeination, but I don't understand this part.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Lilbuddha, I would remind you that things got heated when you put on your "Omniscient" cap and told Lamb Chopped exactly what she ought to think and why about her own heritage, in a very rude and personal manner. I responded; when you got snippy and declined to engage with me, I offered to take it to Hell more than once. You ignored me, presumably because you don't have a good response. I have been reminded by this that there's rarely any point in attempting to reason with you, and that life (my life, at least) is too short to waste my time.

    I'm also trying to obey the Commandments and Purgatorial guidelines. Are you?

  • Ruth wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    This has a direct relevance to the thread, more so than is typical.

    It may simply be my under-caffeination, but I don't understand this part.
    A thread such as the White Supremacy thread is going to generate a bit of heat simply for what is being discussed. If it generated none, there would be no need for the thread at all.
    Importantly, what is considered too much heat can shape the conversation.
    I wish to know which bits were considered pushing the limits.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    You ignored me, presumably because you don't have a good response.
    I ignored your Hell call and chose to listen to C 5 and ignore your abusing 1,2,3 and 4 because indulging you would be counter-productive to actually discussing the subject.
    This post aside, I will likely continue to ignore you. Addressing some subjects is more important than addressing posts of febrile delusion.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    ...This post aside, I will likely continue to ignore you. Addressing some subjects is more important than addressing posts of febrile delusion.
    That's rich, coming from you. But dealing with trolls like you properly belongs in Hell, and I'm done with you on this particular abuse of Purg.



  • You asked what was being posted on the White Supremacy thread that was approaching Hellish level. Well, there are some examples on that thread, but referring to the posts of others as "febrile delusion" would be a further example. Not actually in contravention of the Commandments or actually best suited to Hell, but comments that create heat that doesn't facilitate good discussion.
  • I think at least some of the host call was directed at me. I had my back up from the link Gramps posted about a book written by a Lutheran priest who thought the church was too white. The priest wasn't here so I got testy with LilBuddha.

    It made sense at the time.

    My apologies.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited September 7
    You asked what was being posted on the White Supremacy thread that was approaching Hellish level. Well, there are some examples on that thread, but referring to the posts of others as "febrile delusion" would be a further example. Not actually in contravention of the Commandments or actually best suited to Hell, but comments that create heat that doesn't facilitate good discussion.
    That post was here. In Styx. In response to personal accusations.
    So, MY post is the problem? Specifically, my post in Styx, after the Host post and after the personal accusations is the problem?


  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Again, just a guess, and I'm not a Purg host, but perhaps it exemplifies the bad feeling and defensiveness exhibited in the Purg thread. BroJames gave a general warning and mentioned no names, which seemed (to me) generous and even-handed.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    Host Hat On

    As Styx is the appropriate place to discuss hosting, it is perfectly acceptable to say that you think that a post crossed the line and should have been cited for one or more violations of the Ship's commandments.

    But this sort of thing is not acceptable in the Styx:
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    I have been reminded by this that there's rarely any point in attempting to reason with you, and that life (my life, at least) is too short to waste my time.

    I'm also trying to obey the Commandments and Purgatorial guidelines. Are you?

    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Addressing some subjects is more important than addressing posts of febrile delusion.

    Rossweisse wrote: »
    That's rich, coming from you. But dealing with trolls like you properly belongs in Hell, and I'm done with you on this particular abuse of Purg.


    The first of these three posts is personal, if not an outright personal attack. The next two are both personal attacks.

    Ruth, Styx Host
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I apologize, Ruth. I have been trying to avoid her, but obviously failed on this subject. I will not do it again.
  • The most nasty bits in that thread were days before his post. DAYS.
    Twilight appeared upset, but her posts were not at the level that prior posters had already surpassed.
    SOF just spent time readjusting the boards because of the Transphobia thread. A consistent POV from the management during that was that vulnerable groups are going to have to take hits to make progress in the discussion.
    The people freaking out on the White Supremacy thread are white people. They are not the vulnerable in this situation, not as a group.
    Again, this thread is going to generate a little more heat than is typical. Both because some of us are victims of the subject and some are going to have their identities tested.
    Which is one reason why I didn't complain about Rossweisse's posts pushing the commandments.
    A general warning can, in many cases, avoid causing more issues.
    IMO, in this case it causes more.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Unless folk come out with self-identifying information (and even if they do), ascertaining whether or not a particular shipmate identifies as, or is, white is going to be a tough call.
  • I’m not addressing hypothetical shipmates. I’m talking about the ones on the White Supremacy thread. Especially the ones getting angry.
  • Just to be clear, I am questioning BroJames in order to further the conversation, not criticise it.
  • @Ruth
    Missed your post. Fair enough, though I'd contest that my post referenced in your post didn't transgress the rules.* But it illustrates my point. Rossweisse was posting in the same vein in the White Supremacy thread and it was not addressed.
    Though I'd agree that Twilight also mis-characterised my posting, she did so at a lesser level.
    This is assuming BroJames' reasoning, or course, which is why I'd like to hear from him.

    *
    Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
    Not actually in contravention of the Commandments
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    I read Alan's not-adminly-tagged post and still put my host hat on to write something in specific contradiction to what he said. Posts can't have febrile delusions, but people can, so I'm calling it a personal attack. (If the admins overrule me, you will have my apologies.)

    If I'm following you -- and I'm not sure I am, because this seems to be going more than one direction at once -- what you mainly want to know is why there was no host call several days ago on specific posts that you think were over the line. Is that the case?

    Or do you want to know what posts specifically BroJames was aiming at in the general caution that he did issue? Typically a general caution that does not name names is just that -- a general caution.

    Or both?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited September 7
    Ruth wrote: »
    I read Alan's not-adminly-tagged post and still put my host hat on to write something in specific contradiction to what he said. Posts can't have febrile delusions, but people can, so I'm calling it a personal attack. (If the admins overrule me, you will have my apologies.)
    Posts cannot be stupid without their writer being stupid in the moment of writing them, but SOF allows that distinction. Please note, however, that I said fair enough. I was more making a point that I was playing within the rules and illustrating that someone else wasn't and hadn't been, than contesting the spirit of your post.
    Ruth wrote: »
    If I'm following you -- and I'm not sure I am, because this seems to be going more than one direction at once -- what you mainly want to know is why there was no host call several days ago on specific posts that you think were over the line. Is that the case?
    Not exactly. Doc suggested that the HP was driven by behaviour from several days ago. I am questioning if that is truly the reason.
    Ruth wrote: »
    Or do you want to know what posts specifically BroJames was aiming at in the general caution that he did issue?
    Yes.
    Ruth wrote: »
    Typically a general caution that does not name names is just that -- a general caution.
    I beg to differ. IME and IMO, a general post often knows very well which posts and posters it is aiming at, but is being polite or is avoiding creating more of a brouhaha than necessary.

    Cautions can shape the conversation.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    @Lamb Chopped, who is in large part Cherokee, is the victim here. I just sought to clarify things.

  • Victim. She broached the subject and brought it to the fore when it was not addressed. You began the accusations of bad faith. Just to clarify things.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I'm letting this go. Take it to Hell.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    edited September 8
    OK. So here’s how I see it. I’ve not called anyone for overstepping the mark. I hope if I’d needed to I’d have done do, but I don’t claim infallibility. There’s always a balance between intervening, and allowing a discussion to flow.

    I’ve observed that this is a topic which people are passionate about, and which affects people personally. The thread has got very heated in the past and threatens to do so again. These are circumstances where people easily slip from forcefully addressing arguments (which is fine in Purgatory) to addressing persons instead and/or their motivations for posting (which comes to the same thing) which is not fine.

    My judgment was that a general reminder at this point to keep cool, with a pointer to the 10 Commandments and the Guidelines, would help everyone to go on making sure that they were thinking clearly before posting.

    Anyone who feels that the cap doesn’t fit them doesn’t need to wear it.

    (Apologies for the delay in responding, but this is a busy time IRL.)
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    No worries, @BroJames. Thank you.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    OK. So here’s how I see it. I’ve not called anyone for overstepping the mark. I hope if I’d needed to I’d have done do, but I don’t claim infallibility. There’s always a balance between intervening, and allowing a discussion to flow.

    I’ve observed that this is a topic which people are passionate about, and which affects people personally. The thread has got very heated in the past and threatens to do so again. These are circumstances where people easily slip from forcefully addressing arguments (which is fine in Purgatory) to addressing persons instead and/or their motivations for posting (which comes to the same thing) which is not fine.

    My judgment was that a general reminder at this point to keep cool, with a pointer to the 10 Commandments and the Guidelines, would help everyone to go on making sure that they were thinking clearly before posting.

    Anyone who feels that the cap doesn’t fit them doesn’t need to wear it.

    (Apologies for the delay in responding, but this is a busy time IRL.)
    Fair enough. The timing seemed potentially problematic to me, so I asked. I do appreciate that yours is a volunteer position and not one with typical workspace parameters.
  • Should the thread in question be in epiphanies ?
  • EliabEliab Shipmate, Purgatory Host
    Eutychus has now moved the thread (likewise the Nonbinary identity thread).
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