Barking in the high noon shower...

…(Risen) Lord, how do I make you work? How do you work?

(Is that too whimsical for Purgatory?)

You were incarnate here for 33 years, in full human pre-Enlightenment ignorance except of the fact of your divinity, with glints, that is your divine nature, which you appear to have perceived at the time to be of a divine Person, the Second, i.e. you appear to have believed that you were the full and total and sole embodiment of that divine Person in all eternity. Virtually everyone who believes in you since does. You saw your PSA mission in the OT and faithfully, ignorantly, carried it out as if it was your Father's will. Which in a sense it was. Contingently. Not, as you appear to have believed, judicial, as most of your non-Enlightened followers believe/d.

You were the living embodiment of the clash of faith and reason. Reason that is ever starker, purer and needs faith to match.

So how do you work? Because you were not the sole embodiment of that in the blinding light of infinity from eternity.

(Is that better?)

Comments

  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Better than what?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    More Purgatorial. I guess not. I'll just have to pay some Oxbridge don.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited November 9
    More Purgatorial than what?

    We don’t all read all the threads.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited November 9
    Sigh. The one liner. Got a bunch of emails for academics. I'll let you know.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    The two questions in brackets go together, Boogie. Martin wrote a question, and asked in brackets if it was too whimsical for Purg, and then wrote a longer piece of writing, expanding what he meant, and asked if that was better.
  • ECraigRECraigR Shipmate
    I really like that there’s a handful of people who’ve studied Martinsprach and can interpret for the rest of us.

    As near as I can make out, I do agree that Christ embodies a paradox and that the Christian religion is fundamentally predicated on paradoxes. But I think paradoxes are good things, being a bit of a Hegelian. That being said, I’m not sure I follow with the PSA and whatnot, though I do recall some of your comments from the Boswell days.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited November 10
    O Lord, If you are a fool, let me bask in your foolishness. If you are inappropriate, let me dance in your inappropriateness. If you are frustrated, confused, sorrowful, let me swim in the tears you shed.

    O Lord, keep me in a state of blissful ignorance, enlightenment ignorance, pre-enlightenment confusion or post-Confucian ennui if that state allows me to quiet my mind and be with whatever you are.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited November 10
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Sigh. The one liner. Got a bunch of emails for academics. I'll let you know.

    Thanks, and your sigh makes me sad that I am dismissed as thick and that I have neither the wit, the spirituality nor the brain to answer.

    Never mind.

    I’m out.

  • NOOOO! Boogie. As ever the failure is completely mine. Please. Forgive me. I'm sorry. I try different ways of raising a reaction, hence the 'quirkiness'. It's not you, as fine a shipmate, a representative of SOF's broad and deep intellectuality, feeling, tone as there is.

    It's me. Howling in the existential wilderness.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited November 10
    Martin54 wrote: »
    NOOOO! Boogie. As ever the failure is completely mine. Please. Forgive me. I'm sorry. I try different ways of raising a reaction, hence the 'quirkiness'. It's not you, as fine a shipmate, a representative of SOF's broad and deep intellectuality, feeling, tone as there is.

    It's me. Howling in the existential wilderness.

    Sorry from me too. I was tetchy and a touch petulant this morning.

    Mind you, I still have no answers. I went to Church this morning and was glad to have done so, but I didn’t meet Christ in the bread and wine. I like Church because my friends are there and because I feel close to the memory of my Dad there.

    (Of course, the word ‘barking’ attracted me to the thread :tongue:)



  • My advice? Shower less often :mrgreen:
  • OK Martin I might regret this but I'll jump in.

    "Lord, how do I make you work?"

    You don't. The Lord is who he/she is, and does what he/she does. We can ask, but we can't manipulate.

    "How do you work?"

    The Lord works in mysterious ways which we might catch a glimpse of but which we will never fathom. Any more than we can fathom the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God.

    We can become conscious of the presence of the Lord, whether we bark or howl in the high noon shower, stand in awe at the wonder of nature, or be still. But not if we try to make it happen. Like quantum physics.
  • This.

    Thank you, @Raptor Eye - until I read your post, I didn't really have a clue as to what this thread was about...
  • Raptor EyeRaptor Eye Shipmate
    edited November 10
    This.

    Thank you, @Raptor Eye - until I read your post, I didn't really have a clue as to what this thread was about...

    Martin will let me know if I'm barking up the wrong tree @Bishops Finger :wink:
  • :lol:

    So he will...
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    NOOOO! Boogie. As ever the failure is completely mine. Please. Forgive me. I'm sorry. I try different ways of raising a reaction, hence the 'quirkiness'. It's not you, as fine a shipmate, a representative of SOF's broad and deep intellectuality, feeling, tone as there is.

    It's me. Howling in the existential wilderness.

    Sorry from me too. I was tetchy and a touch petulant this morning.

    Mind you, I still have no answers. I went to Church this morning and was glad to have done so, but I didn’t meet Christ in the bread and wine. I like Church because my friends are there and because I feel close to the memory of my Dad there.

    (Of course, the word ‘barking’ attracted me to the thread :tongue:)

    The apology must be entirely mine Boogie. We missed church today, both knackered for some reason and woke at 10! I'm glad you keep going - here and there!

    Raptor Eye wrote: »
    OK Martin I might regret this but I'll jump in.

    "Lord, how do I make you work?"

    You don't. The Lord is who he/she is, and does what he/she does. We can ask, but we can't manipulate.

    "How do you work?"

    The Lord works in mysterious ways which we might catch a glimpse of but which we will never fathom. Any more than we can fathom the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God.

    We can become conscious of the presence of the Lord, whether we bark or howl in the high noon shower, stand in awe at the wonder of nature, or be still. But not if we try to make it happen. Like quantum physics.

    I regret your perfectly valid response Ar Ee because it shows the inadequacy of my OP! And I'm therefore happy to try and address that. The Lord, Jesus, is not going to jump through any hoops for me or anyone else, I know. His Spirit is here, obviously, nonetheless. In you and all others. Indirect, yearning, Zenning away.

    My first question is about how I make Him work in my head.

    I fully agree with how you responded to my second question.

    The questions yin yang each other for me.

    The blow torch of reason has burned away so much. I've felt Jesus to be the most complex entity imaginable for a decade now. And recently then some. To the point where it's a strain.

    It's all about the implications of the fact of infinity of stuff from eternity. It is the greatest single fact. They don't refute God. He embraces them. But they change Him. They change our pre-Enlightenment story of Him, the relationship of the Trinity to Jesus, to incarnation. To Earth and Satan. All infinity outside the Trinity is infinitesimal, had a beginning in eternity.

    It cannot change. Going back. Forever. There has always been stuff. Always been incarnations. I very much doubt that there have ever been angels, it requires more complexity. It requires that some always go to the bad. Locally, everywhere. A very complex moral ecology.

    We are wrong in making Jesus the sole incarnation and to make incarnation work, infinitely from eternity, is hard enough. Infinitely not just practically in our practically infinite universe, where in our galaxy alone The Second Person must have incarnated 10 to 10,000 to 10,000,000 times, multiplied by a trillion galaxies, but truly infinitely because our universe is one of infinite past with an infinite wave front now. Infinities of infinites.

    So every resurrected incarnation is one of infinitely infinite and has a local immanence going on up in to the transcendent. There is a Heaven for every world. With a risen Christ.

    Meaninglessness is infinitely simpler.

    So I imagine you do regret this!

    Yeah E, I should stay out the shower.
  • Hmm. I'm now :confused: again...
  • Martin54 wrote: »

    I regret your perfectly valid response Ar Ee because it shows the inadequacy of my OP! And I'm therefore happy to try and address that. The Lord, Jesus, is not going to jump through any hoops for me or anyone else, I know. His Spirit is here, obviously, nonetheless. In you and all others. Indirect, yearning, Zenning away.

    My first question is about how I make Him work in my head.

    I fully agree with how you responded to my second question.

    The questions yin yang each other for me.

    The blow torch of reason has burned away so much. I've felt Jesus to be the most complex entity imaginable for a decade now. And recently then some. To the point where it's a strain.

    It's all about the implications of the fact of infinity of stuff from eternity. It is the greatest single fact. They don't refute God. He embraces them. But they change Him. They change our pre-Enlightenment story of Him, the relationship of the Trinity to Jesus, to incarnation. To Earth and Satan. All infinity outside the Trinity is infinitesimal, had a beginning in eternity.

    It cannot change. Going back. Forever. There has always been stuff. Always been incarnations. I very much doubt that there have ever been angels, it requires more complexity. It requires that some always go to the bad. Locally, everywhere. A very complex moral ecology.

    We are wrong in making Jesus the sole incarnation and to make incarnation work, infinitely from eternity, is hard enough. Infinitely not just practically in our practically infinite universe, where in our galaxy alone The Second Person must have incarnated 10 to 10,000 to 10,000,000 times, multiplied by a trillion galaxies, but truly infinitely because our universe is one of infinite past with an infinite wave front now. Infinities of infinites.

    So every resurrected incarnation is one of infinitely infinite and has a local immanence going on up in to the transcendent. There is a Heaven for every world. With a risen Christ.

    Meaninglessness is infinitely simpler.

    So I imagine you do regret this!

    No, I don't regret it Martin, as it has hopefully helped you to express what's going on in your mind, which as ever runs so deep that to some of us it's an underground stream we have trouble looking into.

    I love the blow torch of reason. We can't get our heads around the who or why of Jesus, but we can't help but try to. And somehow, by trying to, we make progress, albeit infinitesimal progress, which leads us to struggle some more. We are trying to look through a cloud of unknowing, to borrow the description from St John of the Cross.
  • Thank you Raptor Eye. Believe it or not I need you personally and all who engage with me from very different streams, to strongly follow those courses. I very much appreciate the mingling of waters at this confluence. I find that on Friday nights with people I have less and less in common with we still have the needs of others in common. Needs we cannot touch in our helpless privilege...

    Yeahhhhh, infinitesimal progress in a cloud of unknowing.

    Together.
  • or huddling together in the wind of the approaching firestorm?
  • You in Sydney Bro'?
  • Outside Melbourne, but I'm watching the fire news while sailing here...
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited November 10
    :smile: helpless privilege. Let's keep huddlin' together regardless Bro'.
  • hatlesshatless Shipmate
    Does he work as the one that calls us into the divine dynamic?

    Who he is must be tied to us, who we need him to be, we being earthlings and we, today, being post-whatever we are folk. That's where his complexity comes from, surely? Who he is for us.

    There's something important about consciousness being everywhere emergent. Something about flow, energy, and information being as real as matter, or more so. Something, as RE said, about not approaching this in a goal orientated way, but letting it come to us. Making room for poetry, that is an amplifier for meaning and therefore information and reality. Something about bringing our honest need, being rudely personal, and therefore real.

    And what we are in the end (not) aiming for is no thing or state, but a turning moment of becoming. Because God is a becoming. And then another,

    or something.
  • I don't come out of a tradition where scholarship or thinking about God systematically was frowned upon. I come out of a tradition where God was secondary to the main business of reinforcing communal ties in the face of remembered persecution, but also a community in flux (urge to write essay on Australian Catholicism in the 1970's suppressed).

    What resonates with me is the poetic swimming in the cloud of unknowing, the contemplative life for the sake of itself. What I like about this thread is that it is deeply poetic, deeply contemplative and also questioning. My instinct is to switch off the questioning mind, but it strikes me as rather a neat trick to be able to question while also floating. Is it possible? Perhaps questioning can be a place to begin contemplation.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Remember, just because something is complicated doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s deep.
  • You ole hippy hatless! Yeah man. You too Ess Tee. And Boogie, nice word of caution? The Mandelbrot Set comes to mind and - eternal, infinite - physical reality. The origins of which are ineffably deep even if meaningless. Or did you mean something else? My mental state is certainly complex but not deep.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I think simple things are often wrapped in complicated, unfathomable language to bamboozle folks into thinking they are deep and meaningful.
  • I feel you're right. But I also feel that we haven't the faintest idea how things work at least half the time. Economics. Politics. Advertising. Any human heart.
  • Well, that at least I can agree with, @Martin54 !

    Though I'd go so far as to say 99% of the time (but that's just Inadequate Me...).
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    O Lord, If you are a fool, let me bask in your foolishness. If you are inappropriate, let me dance in your inappropriateness. If you are frustrated, confused, sorrowful, let me swim in the tears you shed.

    O Lord, keep me in a state of blissful ignorance, enlightenment ignorance, pre-enlightenment confusion or post-Confucian ennui if that state allows me to quiet my mind and be with whatever you are.

    This is simply beautiful.
  • Yes, and I bet it would cause a few raised eyebrows if read out in the intercessions at church next Sunday...!!
    :wink:
  • churchgeek wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    O Lord, If you are a fool, let me bask in your foolishness. If you are inappropriate, let me dance in your inappropriateness. If you are frustrated, confused, sorrowful, let me swim in the tears you shed.

    O Lord, keep me in a state of blissful ignorance, enlightenment ignorance, pre-enlightenment confusion or post-Confucian ennui if that state allows me to quiet my mind and be with whatever you are.

    This is simply beautiful.

    Bugger me! Missed that. Superb Ess Tee. Trouble is I'm cursed to be right rather than happy.
  • Aspiring to be happy rather than right didn't work out for Slartibartfast...
  • I get caught out by happiness, but not for too long.
  • The pain then is part of the pleasure now, or something. Never quite convinced by that CS Lewis line, for once.
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