"The grand-daddy of all conspiracy theories"
I've just read this Iwan Russel-Jones article (Ship of Fools Feature 30th October), attracted by the current wave of interest in USA politics. It points to reasonable evidence of 'conspiracy theories' being an influencing factor in pushing evangelicals to place their x's in the Trump box, but it makes the doubtful assumption that a very significant number of US evangelicals are just plain dumb, which I believe is not the truth.
It's my belief that, as is often the case, the truth is stranger than fiction, and in the case of the USA far more dangerous. With regard Trump support, conspiracy theory was confined to a tiny proportion of his extreme right wing support, numbered only in thousands and nowhere near the 30 million or so white evangelicals exercising their right to vote. What swayed the millions of evangelicals and indeed all white Christians in 2016 and 2020 were their concepts of "personal freedom", so perfectly illustrated in the Trump campaign, and so dramatically threatened by Joe Biden. Whether it was the economy, the workforce, immigration, healthcare, law and order, or COVID-19, personal freedoms were at risk and Donald Trump played to it all, both through Republican ideals and through his own personal promises. At the end of the day white Christians voted in their own best interests, for a strong economy, safe jobs, private healthcare, blocking the paths of undesirables and criminals, backed up by the force of law, all summed up by the indignity of social distancing and the wearing of masks.
Why do I say this is potentially more dangerous than any conspiracy theory?
The reasons should be obvious, but my personal fear is that God will begin loosing patience with Christian prayer, and listen more closely to the prayer of other human religions.
It's my belief that, as is often the case, the truth is stranger than fiction, and in the case of the USA far more dangerous. With regard Trump support, conspiracy theory was confined to a tiny proportion of his extreme right wing support, numbered only in thousands and nowhere near the 30 million or so white evangelicals exercising their right to vote. What swayed the millions of evangelicals and indeed all white Christians in 2016 and 2020 were their concepts of "personal freedom", so perfectly illustrated in the Trump campaign, and so dramatically threatened by Joe Biden. Whether it was the economy, the workforce, immigration, healthcare, law and order, or COVID-19, personal freedoms were at risk and Donald Trump played to it all, both through Republican ideals and through his own personal promises. At the end of the day white Christians voted in their own best interests, for a strong economy, safe jobs, private healthcare, blocking the paths of undesirables and criminals, backed up by the force of law, all summed up by the indignity of social distancing and the wearing of masks.
Why do I say this is potentially more dangerous than any conspiracy theory?
The reasons should be obvious, but my personal fear is that God will begin loosing patience with Christian prayer, and listen more closely to the prayer of other human religions.
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Even if most Christian prayer is BS, God, being omniscient, would still maintain the power to discern which prayers ARE worth listening to.
If so, it will be the side of love, no matter what religious trappings it wears. God will no more listen to the vengeful, hate-filled prayer of a Christian than of any other faith. Or he will listen, but he doesn't have to do what is asked. And will not, cannot without betraying himself.
If you are right about the reasons while evangelicals voted for Trump (and not all of them did) it is more scary because it shows that such people have only self at the heart of their ideology, and that is not Christianity, but is being promulgated as such. Which is bad for everyone. But not because of whose prayers will be answered.
You'll have to point out where in the article it says this, because I don't see it.
Bullshit. The evangelical block supported GWB who enacted one of the largest attacks on personal freedom: The "Patriot" Act. The evangelical block supports personal freedom in the same way the Puritans did: Everyone has to person freedom to believe as they (the Puritans/evangelicals) do or face punishment. Everyone has the freedom to be their kind of Christian* or GTFO.
*White, protestant, evangelical and preferably fundamentalist.
Trump, BTW, doesn't give a shit about personal freedom save his own. He is smart enough to play into the evangelical narrative, just the same as he played into the extremist narrative. And since the evangelical black doesn't seem to care that he did...
BTW, welcome to the SHip, but please note that we do not as yet have kool-aid dispensers.
Do you mean the evangelical block?
Is that a matter of kool-aid for kids and newbies? Or "drank the kool-aid", as in Jonestown?
Thx.
(My bold)
The US private healthcare system costs around 20% of GDP and not everyone is covered. 'Socialised' medicine as practised in Europe generally costs around half that, and achieves universal coverage and (in many countries) higher life expectancy. How is it in anyone's best interests to vote for the former?
And how is it in anyone's best interests for coronavirus to run unchecked through their community? Unless their belief is that the threat of coronavirus has been exaggerated, but in that case they are sitting firmly in conspiracy-theory territory.
I'm relieved Aotearoa/NZ opted for indignity.
You make it sound like anyone other than white Christians are undesirables or criminals,
But this is nothing new, and draws heavily on the cultural Christianity of my parents' generation in Australia, where Christian phrases became barely more than badges of belonging.
This will pass, probably, but not in my lifetime I expect.
[edit - now I'm thinking about what my totems might be. I hope totems is not offensive. Or tribe]
I'm sorry I have no answer to your questions as I am not an American evangelical. What I posted was based on several years experience of working in the USA, and the impressions of American life I gained from it.
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves".
And then there is: "They're taking our jerbs!" Despite Republicans not actually supporting domestic jobs, but again, no logic to see here, please move along.
*Protestant, the more conservative the better and preferably white
I totally agree, and I fear it signals the decline of an occidental civilization along with the Christian principles on which it was founded.
Which Christian principles are you thinking of?
The bit about loving one's neighbour I suppose, but throw in any more you fancy.
Welcome to the Ship!
That is not stupidity. I heard so many variants of it, I am sure it was manipulation.
In the US, I noted that Florida voted for a raft of essentially socialist ideas, while also voting for Trump. There is a fear - a remnant of McCarthyism? - that is manipulated to encourage people to vote for the political right.
That's what I'd like "occidental civilisation" to be based on but history doesn't generally support that idea. Sure, it's manifested occasionally but it's hardly foundational.
As far as Florida, it functions like two or three different states and interests between them elide and collide. Sometimes within the same people.
For example:Miami. Being a melting pot metropolis, there is a lot of liberalism. However, the Cuban community is significantly anti-immigrant. They see themselves as proud political refugees and not the same as the filthy, dangerous immigrants Trump paints a picture of.
This almost sounds like you are saying " Not all racists are Christians, but all Christians are racist". If you don't mean that, what meaning does that sentence have?
I parsed it as "there are racists who are not Christians, but Christian racists are a significant element". That does not logically imply that all Christians are racists.
Not all pets kept indoors all the time are cats, but one cannot separate cats from indoor pets. Especially in the US.
I think the target though is @Gramps49 's True Scotsman.
I actually think we'll get there. The bulge of the the post-WW2 baby boom population has to give up control, and allow the younger generations to manage the future. A generational shift needs to occur.
Yeah the US was founded on slavery and the rights of the white 2% (but I repeat myself).
Someone mentioned "Western civilization" to Gandhi, and he reportedly quipped "Yes, I think it would be a very good idea".
As in, the West needs to become civilized.
I read lilbuddha's comment the same way as Jonah. Christianity, as Jesus is recorded to have taught it, isn't racist. Much racism has been implemented by Christians; but many Christians fought against it, like slavery abolitionists.
And racism was around long before Jesus was born.
No, Christianity is not inherently racist. However, since we are here, there is a history of Christian complicity* in the fight against civil rights in America. And whist some churches have, and still do, fight against racism, I think it is fair to say that the harm at least meets if not exceeds this.
If America had been founded by slave-holding Buddhists, then this conversation would be around Buddhism. Christianity itself is excused from this conversation. However a hell of a lot of Christians are not.
*Especially, but not exclusively, white southern evangelicals.
Absolutely. Though people who self-identify as Christian but live lives which suit their own 'principles' rather than those taught by Jesus (in a big way like being racist and nasty) are despicable shits and likely CINO.
To redirect, one of the key concerns of the white Tribe in America is the loss of white jobs, like factory work, mining etc. allegedly to Globalisation, but also AIUI to places like Arkansas, where wages are lower, conditions less regulated and union power well and truly smashed. People hark back to a golden age in the 60's and 70's when everyone they knew had work, employer provided health insurance and a good pension plan. I suggest we burst that cultural bubble by referring them to the life and music of Johnny Cash.
Ah sorry, I read you the wrong way round.
That said, I think the underlying point stands; that is, I don't get the impression that conservative US opposition to 'socialised medicine' is based on pragmatic self-interest, but on a principled objection to Too Much Government (unless it's because they believe all the stuff about NHS death panels, but that puts them into conspiracy theory territory, or at least extremely misinformed territory). And likewise opposition to masks.
What about anti-Semitism? (Specifically anti-Jewish persons, distinguishing from other Semitic groups.)
Tribalism is endemic to our species. We have a history of warring, shunning, etc. others of our species based on that.
Otherwise, where the fuck do you think racism came from?
"And dasheth their little ones against the stones" etc. Racism is basically just those sorts of sentiments gussied up in 19th Century pseudoscience.
I think this is defining 'racism' a bit more narrowly than how the word is commonly used; I doubt many Tommy Robinson supporters (for example) possess a fully worked out, Haeckelian theory of race.
It’s all fear and/or hatred of The Other. Does it really matter exactly which aspect of behaviour or appearance is being used to identify said Other?
No, deep down, these people are not Christian.
The problem with that is you end up looking over church history and concluding that at most times and in most places the church wasn't Christian. You run into problems like Bernard of Clairvaulx preaching the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Luther's advocation of murderous anti-Semitism and Calvin's unfortunate Genevan theocracy which rather came to a head with Servetus.