That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

As it seems there is not a miscellaneous questions thread I will start one by posting the answer to my perennial question about whether it is permissible for the Ash Wednesday liturgy, including imposition of ashes, to be conducted by a lay person. It seems that, at least as far as my own tradition goes, it is. The notes to the experimental liturgies authorised for use in the Scottish Episcopal Church specifically state that where a priest is not available the blessing and imposition of ashes may be conducted by a lay-presider. Now to ponder how long it is likely to have been since the imposition of ashes was last available here...
«134567

Comments

  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    In the RC church lay people would not bless the ashes for the Ash Wednesday liturgy,because only clerics would carry out liturgical blessings. On the other hand where it is needed lay people will impose ashes just as they,when needed, will distribute Communion to the faithful.
    In our parish school there will be about 400 children at one of the Masses on Ash Wednesday and two of the teachers help the priest to impose the ashes.
    For the last few years I have been in Abu Dhabi on Ash Wednesday when there will be about 16 000 people at Mass,about 2 000 at each Mass. The ashes are imposed at the end of the liturgy with about 20 laypeople signing the faithful with ashes as they come out of the church
  • In the C of E, the Ash Wednesday Liturgy doesn't appear to have the ashes actually blessed, as the following prayer is used:

    God our Father, you create us from the dust of the earth:
    grant that these ashes may be for us a sign of our penitence and a symbol of our mortality; for it is by your grace alone that we receive eternal life.


    AIUI, this can be said by a cleric or an authorised Lay Minister.

    IJ


  • BasilicaBasilica Shipmate
    In the C of E, the Ash Wednesday Liturgy doesn't appear to have the ashes actually blessed, as the following prayer is used:

    God our Father, you create us from the dust of the earth:
    grant that these ashes may be for us a sign of our penitence and a symbol of our mortality; for it is by your grace alone that we receive eternal life.


    AIUI, this can be said by a cleric or an authorised Lay Minister.
    There's a widespread (near universal?) understanding among Anglo-Catholics of my experience that "blessings" like these are to be corrected to "bless these ashes and grant..."

  • In the greater scheme of things does it really matter?

    If it comes down to a choice between no service/ blessing of ashes or a layperson taking the service, which makes the most sense? To be blunt, if you are meeting together to mark the beginning of Lent, will God mind if the person leading the remembrance hasn't been priested? I'd suggest not.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    Of course, in the greater scheme of things it does not matter.< Repent and believe the Gospel. Turn to Jesus Christ. > that is what matters,not ultimately whether ashes have been blessed or imposed on the crown of the head or on the forehead.
    Still and all,the liturgy is the liturgy and the liturgical rites,should help us to appreciate these things more.
  • Which is why the C of E liturgy is so carefully crafted, to enable the important times to be marked appropriately, even if no priest is available. TheOrganist is right.

    Alas, as Basilica points out, even then clergy will still alter the official liturgy (which they have sworn a solemn oath to use) to suit their own prejudices.
    :grimace:

    IJ
  • RdrEmCofERdrEmCofE Shipmate
    [Basilica]There's a widespread (near universal?) understanding among Anglo-Catholics of my experience that "blessings" like these are to be corrected to "bless these ashes and grant..."

    "Corrected"? Why do ashes need to be 'blessed'? Surely those in need of 'blessing' are people. Ashes are not considered sacramental, only symbolic. As a Reader and Layman I was never called upon to impose ashes but I see no reason that a Reader or Lay Minister could not perform that function adequately.
    ____________________________________
    In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 2 Cor. 5:19. Love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet. 4:8.
  • In the greater scheme of things does it really matter?

    If it comes down to a choice between no service/ blessing of ashes or a layperson taking the service, which makes the most sense? To be blunt, if you are meeting together to mark the beginning of Lent, will God mind if the person leading the remembrance hasn't been priested? I'd suggest not.

    Certainly. But one of the ways I express my devotion to God is to, so far as it depends on me, follow carefully the liturgies drawn up by the part of his church to which I belong. In the past we have met to mark Ash Wednesday but traced the cross on our own foreheads without ash, as that seemed to be closest we could manage under the existing liturgy.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    Basilica wrote: »
    In the C of E, the Ash Wednesday Liturgy doesn't appear to have the ashes actually blessed, as the following prayer is used:

    God our Father, you create us from the dust of the earth:
    grant that these ashes may be for us a sign of our penitence and a symbol of our mortality; for it is by your grace alone that we receive eternal life.


    AIUI, this can be said by a cleric or an authorised Lay Minister.
    There's a widespread (near universal?) understanding among Anglo-Catholics of my experience that "blessings" like these are to be corrected to "bless these ashes and grant..."

    But if it's a real correction - as in a canonical amendment - it would apply to all the CofE not just the Anglo-Catholic end, wouldn't it? If it's only something that one end of the CofE spectrum is aware of it can hardly be universal! Anyway, not something to go to the stake for, either way!
  • AIUI the ashes should NOT be blessed because what formed them (the old palm crosses) had already been blessed.

    I'm with Bishop's Finger on the general principle of not altering liturgy - but then all too frequently the wallahs who produce this sort of thing today come up with something so clunky that one has to amend just to ensure it actually comes across as English.
  • https://www.scotland.anglican.org/wp-content/uploads/A-Rite-for-the-Beginning-of-Lent-B.pdf
    This is the rite in question. The rite itself does not use the term "blessing", and actually neither does the commentary:
    https://www.scotland.anglican.org/wp-content/uploads/Lent-Holy-Week-Easter-Commentary.pdf
    That was my poor phrasing, my apologies.
  • A bit of a long shot but does anyone here know Anglican churches in the area of Milton Keynes? I am looking for a church which has an 8 am service. South or East side would be better but any would do. I am going to be in the area the weekend after Easter but otherwise committed at the time of main Sunday services.
  • kingsfoldkingsfold Shipmate
    St Martin, Fenny Stratford has a said mass at 08:00. From memory that's south & east of MK. It did get MW'ed but that was some considerable time back. Though it appears the Parish Priest is still the same chap.
  • Recently I had to revise the Maundy Thursday service for one of my CoE churches. To my surprise, both "Lent, Holy Week, Easter" and "Times and Seasons" included the Gloria as part of the liturgy. Therefore I followed suit, but it feels a bit odd. Isn't the Gloria omitted during Lent, and doesn't reappear until Easter Sunday?
  • Partly true, but it seems to be a long-standing tradition that Gloria is indeed an integral part of the Maundy Thursday Mass, accompanied by the ringing of bells etc. for the last time until Easter.

    YMMV, but the festal character of the Maundy Thursday Mass is emphasised by inclusion of Gloria, before seguing into the Procession to the Altar of Repose, the Watch of Prayer etc., if that's what you do.

    It's many aeons since I last went to a 1662 BCP Mass on Maundy Thursday, so I can't recall if it included Gloria (which, in that case, would come at the end of the service.)

    IJ
  • BasilicaBasilica Shipmate
    Recently I had to revise the Maundy Thursday service for one of my CoE churches. To my surprise, both "Lent, Holy Week, Easter" and "Times and Seasons" included the Gloria as part of the liturgy. Therefore I followed suit, but it feels a bit odd. Isn't the Gloria omitted during Lent, and doesn't reappear until Easter Sunday?

    The Maundy Thursday liturgy is a complex one. It involves the joy of the new commandment and the institution of the Eucharist, then moves into the sadness of Gethsemane and the Passion.

    So the Gloria is there in recognition of the joy of the evening, before it descends into darkness.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    The Gloria is a festal chant so it is appropriate on any festal day. Although minor saints days are not encouraged during Lent, celebrations such as St Joseph, The Annunciation (though not this year) and others regularly occur and call for the singing of the Gloria. Maundy Thursday is equally festal although as Basilica points out the mood changes in the course of the liturgy. (So the Gloria in the 1662 position would be less appropriate).
  • Yes, though The Church Of My Yoof, being conservative evangelical, would not in any case have had a Watch of Prayer after the Maundy Thursday service. At least we did have a complete 'Lord's Supper', restricted in those halcyon days to 8am on Sundays, with shortened versions at 12 noon on the first Sunday of the month, and 730pm on the third Sunday....

    As I said, I'm afraid memory is too dim to recall whether Gloria was omitted - I suspect not, and, in any case, it was never sung at all, as that would have been Rank Popery!

    IJ
  • VulpiorVulpior Shipmate
    I’m fairly sure I’ve been to Maundy Thursday services with the Gloria, but I note we didn’t use it last year. One thing I’ve often seen creep in is the hymn, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, with its use of “Alleluia”.

    On another matter, for those who veil crosses and images, when do you do so? Our tradition in recent years appears to have been noting on Lent 5 that we probably should have done it for then, and getting round to it during the week in time for Palm Sunday.
  • Of course there is the Gloria on Maundy Thursday, complete with bells etc (known as the strepitus) just after the intonation of the first phrase.

    Nothing with organ accompaniment after the communion and appropriate chants or anthems while the altar is stripped and the reserved sacrament carried to the altar of repose.

    We usually have something like Sumsion in F for the setting, with Byrd's Ave verum at communion or the Durufle Ubi caritas et amor. No closing hymn of course, no voluntary - in fact no organ music at all until the beginning of the Gloria at the Vigil service.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Technically, every Sunday in Lent is not a part of Lent, but is to be celebrated as a little Easter. Thus, the Gloria or other suitable chant may be used.

    Regards, the use of bells after Maundy Thursday: I know I may be a heretic on this one, but on Good Friday, as the chancel is darkened I will have the bell toll thirty two times and then slam the book at the end of the tolling.
  • BroJamesBroJames Shipmate
    Even in the BCP position one could argue for the Gloria on the basis of the Johannine (?) “after they had sung a hymn they went out”.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Technically, every Sunday in Lent is not a part of Lent, but is to be celebrated as a little Easter. Thus, the Gloria or other suitable chant may be used.
    Technically, this is not accurate. Whether the Gloria can be sung on Sundays in Lent depends on one's tradition and the rules that govern that tradition's liturgies. Per the General Instructions of the Roman Missal, the Gloria is not sung at Masses on Sundays during Lent (or Advent). Ditto for the rubrics of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer (TEC).

    So at least in the liturgies of the Roman Rite and of the Episcopal Church, the fact that Sundays in Lent but not of Lent and are little Easters does not mean the Gloria can be sung.

  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited March 24
    Vulpior wrote: »
    On another matter, for those who veil crosses and images, when do you do so? Our tradition in recent years appears to have been noting on Lent 5 that we probably should have done it for then, and getting round to it during the week in time for Palm Sunday.

    Ours are veiled in purple throughout Lent. They'll be veiled in red on Palm Sunday. I'm pretty sure we veil in black for Good Friday, but I haven't made it to church then for a few years, because I've always had the small children.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    I'm trying to remember exactly when, it's been a number of years since I attended, in the Orthodox church the icons are veiled, or at least have some black veil cloth put on top of them.

    I want to say Holy Friday to Holy Saturday, but I can't remember if they come off during or after the morning service, or the Paschal Resurrection service that night.

    Any who can help my failing memory please do so.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    edited March 24
    Climacus wrote: »
    I'm trying to remember exactly when, it's been a number of years since I attended, in the Orthodox church the icons are veiled, or at least have some black veil cloth put on top of them.

    I want to say Holy Friday to Holy Saturday, but I can't remember if they come off during or after the morning service, or the Paschal Resurrection service that night.

    Any who can help my failing memory please do so.

    In the Byzantine Rite, the icons are not usually veiled but the hangings on the icon stands and around the church are changed from light to dark (usually purple) during Forgiveness Vespers prior to the commencement of Lent. The prayer that is usually read, Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin, is sung very slowly on this day to any of a number of chants composed for the purpose, and the veiling takes place at this time.

    The purple hangings give way to the black ones of the Holy Friday services. Then, during the Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil, which is served on Holy Saturday afternoon, the black hangings are removed and replaced with white or silver hangings, (often the festal hangings have already been placed beneath the black ones prior to the service for convenience). The clergy also change their vestments at this point, from black to white.

    This is in fact the original paschal Vigil, which is why it bears so many hallmarks of the western Paschal Vigil (replacement of dark hangings with light, baptisms, reintroduction of joyful chants, a number of the same readings, and so forth) - they share the same roots.

    I once attended a talk by Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia, who said that, when the new Vigil was introduced in about the 8th century, the old one was so loved that it was simply moved to the afternoon, which is when it takes place today.

    There is no morning Liturgy appointed for Holy and Great Saturday: only the Vesperal Liturgy and the night Liturgy of the Paschal Vigil. The Vesperal Liturgy is appointed to begin at about 4pm (or "the tenth hour of the day", as it is worded in the rubrics), although most places serve it somewhat earlier for pastoral reasons, (the clergy and choir have a big job in the coming night and will need some rest!). At my old parish, the start time varied from one year to the next, the latest being 3pm and the earliest being 12 noon. I have never seen it done in the morning, but I have heard of parishes where it happens. It always seems to me to be taking pastoral need a bit too far. After all, it is Vespers. :/

    In any case, the change happens during the elongated responsorial chant Arise, O God; judge the earth, which replaces the Alleluia prior to the Gospel.
  • We veil the crosses, statues, four large oil paintings, and the reredos in the Requiem Chapel (which has a large crucifix in the centre) on the Saturday before Lent 5.

    It's quite a job, requiring much huffing, puffing, and stepladders, and has to be undone on Holy Saturday morning.
    :cry:

    IJ
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Thank you Cyprian; knowledgeable as always.

    We never did the purple veiling. And had the Holy Saturday Liturgy at 8 or 9am. Oh well, it was sunset somewhere in the world I used to think. Or, as someone told me, Lent turns everything upside down.
  • TwoRavensTwoRavens Shipmate
    Re: the Gloria in excelsis. The custom in the parishes I've worked/worshipped in on Maundy Thursday has been to use a 'festive' setting, with much organ accompaniment and bells when available. The organ is then turned off, and the rest of the liturgy sung w/o accompaniment. (The organ returning with great gusto at the First Mass of Easter, with bells when available.)
    Re: veiling of crosses and images. This varied somewhat, most places putting on the veils before the evening office on Saturday before Lent V, but one place insisting on doing the deed on Shrove Tuesday afternoon.
    Unveiling likewise varied. Most changing the altar cross to black for Good Friday, and some, though not all, unveiling a cross during the liturgy.
    Most left other images covered until sometime during the Gloria at the Vigil. (All pretty much according to Fortescue, and these were all TEC parishes!)
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    And St. Percy had hessian/Lenten Array veils for the whole of Lent.

    And modern RC practice is not to veil anything until Maundy Thursday and thern to veil anything that cannot be moved for Good Friday.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Technically, every Sunday in Lent is not a part of Lent, but is to be celebrated as a little Easter. Thus, the Gloria or other suitable chant may be used.
    While many of the restrictions of Lent is lifted on Sundays, they are still part of Lent. That fact is easily confirmed by the fact that we call them First Sunday of Lent, Second Sunday of Lent, Third Sunday of Lent, etc., and from the fact that we do not use the Gloria or the Alleluia.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited March 26
    {quote}While many of the restrictions of Lent is lifted on Sundays, they are still part of Lent. That fact is easily confirmed by the fact that we call them First Sunday of Lent, Second Sunday of Lent, Third Sunday of Lent, etc., and from the fact that we do not use the Gloria or the Alleluia.[/quote]

    In my tradition, every Sunday during Lent is referenced "X Sunday in Lent." Otherwise, there would be 46 days of Lent. The Sundays in Lent are not counted.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    edited March 26
    In Lent still means "in Lent." Lent IS 43 days (the Triduum is not part of Lent).
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 27
    kmann wrote: »
    In Lent still means "in Lent." Lent IS 43 days (the Triduum is not part of Lent).
    We had a discussion about all of this last year in this thread. Bottom line: different Western traditions and churches count the number of days/distribution of 40 days in Lent differently and treat the Sundays in Lent (or, as some like Gramps49 say, “in Lent but not of Lent”) differently. There really isn’t one ecumenical norm on this.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 27
    Sorry. Inadvertinent second post.

  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    How does one pronounce "Triduum"?
  • BasilicaBasilica Shipmate
    Climacus wrote: »
    How does one pronounce "Triduum"?

    Either "trid-joo-um" or "trid-oo-um". The latter is the more authentic Latin pronunciation; the former is the more common (IME) English pronunciation.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Basilica wrote: »
    Climacus wrote: »
    How does one pronounce "Triduum"?

    Either "trid-joo-um" or "trid-oo-um".
    With the accent on the first syllable. I also hear “TRI-dyoo-um.”

  • BroJamesBroJames Shipmate
    I'm familiar with trid-yoo-um
  • Same here.

    IJ
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Our local diocesan website has some pictures on it of a few deacons and priests renewing their vows today. What is the point of renewing a vow? Isn't a vow, a vow?
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    Our local diocesan website has some pictures on it of a few deacons and priests renewing their vows today. What is the point of renewing a vow? Isn't a vow, a vow?

    Sure, but certainly there's power in periodically saying, "Yes, I took that vow, and I would do it again, and I'm fully committed to it." Necessary? No. Helpful in continuing to keep the vow? Yes. Works the same way for renewal of wedding vows, especially after a healing of something that threatened the keeping of the vows.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Thanks for the pronunciation, all.
  • SpikeSpike Admin
    With regards to the pronunciation of Triduum, I’m still confused. Our Vicar pronounces the first syllable as “try” and the curate pronounces it as “tree”. Which is correct?
  • BroJamesBroJames Shipmate
    The older English pronunciation would be ‘try’. Italianate Latin and best guess at original pronunciation would be somewhere around ‘tree’ or ‘trid’ (to rhyme with ‘lid’)
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    “Trid,” rhyming with “lid,” is what I usually hear in the States.
  • LolaLola Shipmate
    edited March 30
    I have never ever made it to the sunrise service on Easter Day. (I confess I have not been very good at going on Easter Sunday in general falling down a well of family pressure to do other things). Is it worth it? I always look at it in the notice sheet and think it would be good. I went to the main service on Easter Sunday last year and it was very joyful. Is it the done thing to go to both?
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Lola wrote: »
    I have never ever made it to the sunrise service on Easter Day. (I confess I have not been very good at going on Easter Sunday in general falling down a well of family pressure to do other things). Is it worth it? I always look at it in the notice sheet and think it would be good. I went to the main service on Easter Sunday last year and it was very joyful. Is it the done thing to go to both?

    It depends on what you mean by "sunrise service".

    Is this simply the Paschal Vigil that your church does in the early hours of the morning? Or is it something different?

    I once went to a sunrise service in my Anglican days and was sorely disappointed, (and not just because of the bye-laws that I'm sure we broke by lighting a fire in a park). It was a Team Ministry affair. Essentially, someone lit a fire, said a prayer or two, and we all stood there waiting for sunrise while singing Taizé chants, which lasted considerably longer than expected, despite the information from someone who had supposedly checked the time of sunrise that day. Then we all lit tealights from the fire, put them in jars, and took them to our respective churches. An utter and complete let-down.

    The following year I went to a church that did a proper vigil and made it my home parish after the refreshing water that the experience turned out to be.

    If you don't know what form it will take or what to expect, the best thing to do is to go and see. Then you can make an informed decision about your attendance in the future.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    @Cyprian, I’m not sure where Lola is, but in my part of the world, sunrise service means this, not the Paschal Vigil. I will admit to generally not being a fan, with one exception. As the article notes, the services have roots in the Moravian tradition. As I mentioned on another thread recently, the sunrise service held in in Old Salem (a Moravian community now part of Winston-Salem), North Carolina, is absolutely incredible.

    In these parts, many churches will have a sunrise service followed by a church breakfast. The latter is, IME, the best part.
  • Yes, indeed - O those early-morning bacon rolls! With brown sauce!

    I once went to our local Cathedral Easter Vigil, which starts at the illegal hour of 530am on Easter Sunday morning. To my surprise, there were about 150-200 people present, and we had the works - New Fire (outside), Exsultet (with bees), OT readings, Baptisms, Confirmations (by the then Suffragan Bishop), full Sung Eucharist (with choir), incense, holy water, and all....

    IIRC, there was a champagne breakfast in the Crypt afterwards, but I needed to go back to bed by then. By the time the service was over, the people were beginning to arrive for the usual 8am BCP Eucharist!

    A neighbouring church does something similar, but on a much smaller scale, also at 530am or thereabouts, whereas another has a service on Holy Saturday evening. I'm afraid I would not be at all attracted by the sort of low-key service described by Cyprian.

    In south-eastern Ukland this weekend, there may be a (frosty) sunrise on Easter Sunday morning, but at the moment it is Grey, Grim, Grisful, and Raining.
    :grimace:

    IJ
Sign In or Register to comment.