Slides during worship?

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Comments

  • Quite so.

    On occasions when I've felt that the Sunday Mass at Our Place has been a rock-bottom worship 'experience' (low attendance, grotty sermon - probably praught by me - poor singing etc. etc.), someone has said to me, 'that service really cheered me up/encouraged me etc. etc.'

    Good Queen Bess (for all her faults) was a Woman Of Sense.

    IJ
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    We don't have projected song words (yet). The main reason being that we don't have anything approaching a worship set. We encourage people to choose songs that fit with wherever the Spirit is taking us. PowerPoint can easily kill participation.

    That sounds very Brethren-y to me ...
    Of course it is. That's my background. I still think it's better than a worship set for all sorts of reasons.
  • We have a Loop and provide large print service words for those who require or wish them (but only with the words, not the pictures). I don't know what we'd do if someone came along who required Braille - I would be extremely surprised to find we could meet that need.

    Probably very few could. There are very few VIP's who can actually read Brail anyway and few who have complete loss of all sight, but the charity called Torch at Market Harborough can supply Brail copies of almost anything a Brail reader could need, if required.

    Boogie: Love the guide dog puppy pic. :heart: My wife, (a retired CofE priest), had a guide dog I loved and walked, called Honey, (also retired but alas, now glorified in doggy heaven). Amazing doggy personality. I currently sponsor a guide dog puppy called Joy.

    Vid screens, like anything else, can be very useful in worship, but like anything else in worship, they need to be operated with sensitivity and skill. To enhance and not detract from the experience should be the aim, always.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    We have a full set of Braille hymn books - ie all the hymns from one book in lots of Braille books, at Church, they are about 20 years old ‘tho so any modern hymns wouldn’t be in them.

    Thank you @RdrEmCofE - Keir is our sixth GD puppy and much loved at Church.

  • What's an induction loop and a VIP? I'm thinking something earphone to connect with microphones? Perhaps different terminology than here.

    It is possible to make a simple wood frame and use a white sheet for a screen. Put little wheels on one end and prop sticks on sides and middle behind. Wheel it out and away when needed. There's always a group (typically older men, but doesn't have to be) who can make such thing in about half an hour. But they'll take all afternoon.

    An old building here is 70 years old. About half the population attended any church at all when young. Most were less than 100 people and often with basic basic liturgical structure. About 20% indigenous and rapidly rising. So church often looks like prayer at start. Sing. Read something bible. Sing. Read. Sermon. Prayer. 8 person choir if there's a choir. Piano not organ. The rural depopulation leads these people away from such boringness and to freestanding churches with inspiring gospel music and emotional preaching. These entertainment and personal support churches are the ones with people in them. The incomprehensible-to-many liturgical churches are dying except for RC which benefits from immigration, otherwise would be in same situation.

    There is a "what do I get out of it?" attitude in younger people I think. Who will go for out for brunch or to exercise class instead of church. They are right sometimes. I don't think it's about chasing anyone, it's about the current anxieties and baby boom generation domination of the tone and practice which alienates. They want engagement where they actually are in the world.

    Evening services of multicultural music and really well read and said things fill the place. Less organ, less trad liturgy, more indigenous drumming and other singing, no requirement to profess faith. More of a community gathering place. No Jesus in your face.

    It seems to me, JC's words about what we call communion came after supper. I always wondered if there weren't a few additional people or at least an empty chair, and someone would have gotten drunk and fallen asleep and never heard about it.
  • What's an induction loop and a VIP?
    I'm assuming that in this context, VIP = Visually Impaired Person.

  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    An induction loop is a the sort of sound loop in a building that hearing aid wearers use - by switching their aids to the T setting.

    VI is usually visually impaired, as HI is hearing impaired, in learning support shorthand.
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    I’ve twice seen slides used to great effect during Anglo-Catholic worship.

    Once during a solemn mass to illustrate/prompt intercessions.

    Once during Benediction for similar effect – the exposed host was seen in the midst of wordly affairs – very incarnational.
  • An induction loop is a the sort of sound loop in a building that hearing aid wearers use - by switching their aids to the T setting.

    VI is usually visually impaired, as HI is hearing impaired, in learning support shorthand.
    Thanks. We have a similar system usually called "Sennheiser system" after the company. The other abbreviations aren't used here. Low vision is what my father has. Reduced hearing is what I have.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    The one thing I do not like about printing the lyrics to hymns is they do not allow for harmonizing. People who have a basic music ability sometimes like to harmonize. It was once said Lutherans tend to break out in four part harmony; however, this ability is lost if one cannot read the music.

    That said, I can see how using a short video as a sermon starter can be useful.

    Not to long ago, I made reference to the underlying message of a certain evangelist. I would have liked to have shown a clip of that message. All I could do was recite it. I think it would have been more effective if my listeners could have heard this evangelist say the words himself. He presented a theology of glory. We emphasize the theology of the cross.

    I would argue for a judicious use of the medium. To me, church is not a spectator sport.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Eutychus wrote: »
    We don't have projected song words (yet). The main reason being that we don't have anything approaching a worship set. We encourage people to choose songs that fit with wherever the Spirit is taking us. PowerPoint can easily kill participation.

    That sounds very Brethren-y to me ...
    Of course it is. That's my background. I still think it's better than a worship set for all sorts of reasons.

    I get that, Eutychus. Mind you, the Brethren I encountered back in the day tended to have a 'worship set' - although it wouldn't have been called that in those days. Things varied between the morning communion service and the evening Gospel service - which is the one I attended more often - and yes, there were variations across different assemblies.

    I'm not saying you're 'wrong' by the way. I suppose I've become much less extemporary and more liturgical in my 'preferences' and practices, even in my own personal devotions.

    Even my own extemporary prayers sound very odd to me these days ...

    Not that I'd rule such things out of course.

    That said, it does puzzle me to some extent as to why God the Holy Spirit would want or prefer this, that or the other hymn to be sung or prayer to be said when we've got it all written down in black and white or black and red in the first place ...

    Heh heh heh heh heh ...

  • Because She's allowed to change Her mind....

    I'll get me cassock...

    IJ
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The one thing I do not like about printing the lyrics to hymns is they do not allow for harmonizing. People who have a basic music ability sometimes like to harmonize. It was once said Lutherans tend to break out in four part harmony; however, this ability is lost if one cannot read the music.

    I have never been to a church where the congregation are given anything other than the lyrics. Music versions of the hymnbook are for choir and organist only everywhere I've been. Since hardly anyone can read music, this is not surprising.

    I understand this may be a UK thing. Generally only people who play musical instruments (not the majority by a long way) can read music. In the G&S society I used to be a member of only about 50% of the chorus could read the dots, and you used to get a lot of accusations of elitism if you started referring to "the entry on the B in bar 134..." or "where the key signature changes to A"

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The one thing I do not like about printing the lyrics to hymns is they do not allow for harmonizing. People who have a basic music ability sometimes like to harmonize. It was once said Lutherans tend to break out in four part harmony; however, this ability is lost if one cannot read the music.

    I have never been to a church where the congregation are given anything other than the lyrics. Music versions of the hymnbook are for choir and organist only everywhere I've been. Since hardly anyone can read music, this is not surprising.

    I understand this may be a UK thing. Generally only people who play musical instruments (not the majority by a long way) can read music. In the G&S society I used to be a member of only about 50% of the chorus could read the dots, and you used to get a lot of accusations of elitism if you started referring to "the entry on the B in bar 134..." or "where the key signature changes to A"
    I think we've had this discussion before. Hymnals with music and harmony are the norm in the States. Lyrics-only hymnals are, in my experience, limited here to large-print hymnals, and the general view seems to be that inclusion of the music has been "sacrificed" in order to make the book manageable. As a general rule, congregations (at least "traditional" congregations) expect to have the music as well as the lyrics.

    Over the years, I've heard numerous folks in the pews comment that they can't really read music, but that they can see when the line goes up and down, and that helps them. I've also known of numerous choir directors who see it as part of their job to look for opportunities to teach non-choir members how to read music.

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    At the risk of diverting from the topic ... surely there is a problem in printing the tunes to hymns as sometimes they may not be the "right" ones. For instance, I want to have "Hail the day that sees him rise" on Sunday, yet Our Book doesn't set "Llanfair" but something else which I've never sung!
  • The "standard" congregational edition of the Church of Scotland Hymnary (4th Edition) is the melody version, though a few of the local congregation have purchased words-only versions as they're substantially lighter. I think the melody edition is a good compromise (usually even school music lessons will give you enough to tell a short note from a long note and an up from a down) unless you have a tradition of harmony singing.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    We have a full set of Braille hymn books - ie all the hymns from one book in lots of Braille books, at Church, they are about 20 years old ‘tho so any modern hymns wouldn’t be in them.

    And a table? Braille hymnbooks are no use unless the person has a table in front of them to lay them on. That is obvious once you have a Braille user but not until.
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The one thing I do not like about printing the lyrics to hymns is they do not allow for harmonizing. People who have a basic music ability sometimes like to harmonize. It was once said Lutherans tend to break out in four-part harmony; however, this ability is lost if one cannot read the music.

    This is simply not correct. Anyone who ever has been to Music Session led by John Bell knows it is quite possible to have congregations singing in 2,3 or 4 part harmony without everyone having to read music. Actually, it is any Iona Community style worship. My description of how this worked at last years Easter on Iona
    The third part [ of preparation for Easter ] ... was the Big Sing and the Not So Wee Sing. These are times when guests are taught the music for upcoming services. This is not a choir rehearsal but a chance to familiarise us with the music and teach parts. If you have ever been to Iona Abbey services and participated in the congregation singing happily in three parts, then this is how they do it. Basically, a significant proportion of the congregation has already been primed. I was spoilt as the number of musicians among the guests was large and therefore we did four-part rather than the usual three-part harmonies.
    The harmonies are largely taught without recourse to formal music although IIRC there were copies of the music at the Sings but not at the services.

    Secondly, and more significantly, for three years I went to a church where the evening congregation sang in harmony pretty often. There was no music handed out, people had just over the years learned the harmony that fitted with their voice. Most weeks there was an organist, but there was not a choir. I am not sure of the number of parts but it worked.

    Given this experience, I conclude that once a significant portion knows the harmonies, then not only can the congregation break out into parts when required, but more importantly people coming into the congregation tend to learn a part rather than just the melody.
  • To teach harmonies by ear you do need to have an accomplished singer leading, and few congregations have someone with that level of skill. I was fortunate enough to experience such a person (who is now a priest in Norfolk) whilst at university and it makes a huge difference.

    There are a handful of hymns where I can harmonise reasonably well, usually things with a counter-melody like And can it be rather than true harmony, but only because I was taught them many years ago. Without that level of confidence I struggle to hold the line on my own.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    The point is that you need a core number of singers who know the harmonies. It is quite a small number but I suspect about eight (two for each voice but really their level of confidence comes into play here) if they are used to singing together. When you have this core, others, who are not confident on their own, will choose a voice to sing with. It is those people and not the books that make harmonies possible.

    Jengie
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    At the risk of diverting from the topic ... surely there is a problem in printing the tunes to hymns as sometimes they may not be the "right" ones. For instance, I want to have "Hail the day that sees him rise" on Sunday, yet Our Book doesn't set "Llanfair" but something else which I've never sung!
    BT, I commiserate. That really does deserve the mobile throwing up emoji that alas is not available on the new Ship.
  • Screens in worship cause me to leave. I find them utterly disruptive and disturbing.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    What do stained glass windows do?

    A (good) image helps me to concentrate. Those who don’t find it helpful close their eyes or look down.

    But I don’t need to argue about this - it works at our gaff and I put in a lot of hours making sure it works well. And that will do.

    :smile:

    I think your image is rather nice. In the context of your communion, I don't think I would find it distracting. Though I wouldn't say I need or want any images - or even liturgy - to help me concentrate, as a worshipper. Nevertheless, I think I'd find your image conducive to my appreciation of the communion. I'd assume it's 'what you do', and would see it as part of the devotional art environment which many churches have, in many different ways. Eg, coloured frontals, crucifixes, banners with jaunty slogans (which I admit I do find a bit distracting sometimes), carved rood screens, vestments, all kinds of pictures and posters, and knick-knacks etc.

    It is easier to overdo the use of the screen slides, than it is to use them sparingly and wisely, I think. A church I know of recently acquired screens on the spurious grounds that they were 'needed' for children's ministry, because the kids couldn't be expected to get through a service without images and TV, basically. Distractingly, the statement of welcome is left on during the service as a kind of default screen. And not everyone who operates it can time the hymn verses properly, so you still have to keep your hymn book handy - though that is improving! But if there's too much going on up there, all the time, after a while it just gets ignored and may as well not be there at all. They are working on it, however, and it is getting better!
  • That said, it does puzzle me to some extent as to why God the Holy Spirit would want or prefer this, that or the other hymn to be sung or prayer to be said when we've got it all written down in black and white or black and red in the first place ...

    Heh heh heh heh heh ...
    Powerpoint usually suggests imposing the choice of someone at the front in worship over a choice made by anybody in the congregation.

    To my mind this, as a regular practice, infantilises the congregation and turns them into consumers instead of active worshippers being taught to participate.

    Of course there is still the temptation for an unwritten liturgy and of course this approach can go off the rails, but to my mind it is absolutely worth it to see people I would consider as thick as a brick and as alive to Christ as one ,and people who have spent most of their lives being excluded from paticipating in anything unless it was through some tokenism, get exactly the right song for exactly the right moment, because in that I see the Holy Spirit at work.

    In other words, my decision not to have Powerpoint is a thought-out one with what I see as a thoroughly biblical teaching aim.

    If you wish to continue politely mocking this approach to worship, instead of actually explaining the preferred advantages of your system without accompanying snark, perhaps we can carry on on the existing thread devoted to your patronising approach to other people's musical choices, in Hell.
  • Screens in worship cause me to leave. I find them utterly disruptive and disturbing.
    Are you sure it's the mere use (or potential for misuse) of the screens themselves which disturb you? Or is it because they are so often linked with contemporary worship music, evangelical theology, and informality?

  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Boogie wrote: »
    We have a full set of Braille hymn books - ie all the hymns from one book in lots of Braille books, at Church, they are about 20 years old ‘tho so any modern hymns wouldn’t be in them.
    And a table? Braille hymnbooks are no use unless the person has a table in front of them to lay them on. That is obvious once you have a Braille user but not until

    The girl we bought them for was in a wheelchair and had a tray which she read them from. A Church Steward always sat with her to pass the right book from the large pile.

    She didn’t leave our Church - she loved it - she, sadly, died.

    If they were needed again we have a whole host of different small tables to choose from.

  • Full marks to your church, Boogie, for catering for this young lady in such a loving manner.

    May she RIPARIG.

    IJ
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Boogie wrote: »
    What do stained glass windows do?
    I've never been in a church where the stained glass is rotated in and out of the window frames on cue to what's going on at the altar.
  • I was, however, present at the dedication of a new church where, at the consecration, the sun shone through the stained glass and projected the face of Jesus onto the wine in the chalice.
  • I think my comments came over snarkier than I intended, Eutychus. I was thinking aloud rather than passing judgment.

    The 'heh heh heh heh' was there to indicate that I was being tongue in cheek. I wouldn't disparage the way you guys worship and I'm sure it's right for your particular context.

    I don't mean the following to sound patronising or flippant, but I see something similar at some of the music / poetry open-mics I run when someone who has been excluded for whatever reason all their lives reads or performs something that goes down well and attracts admiration and applause - even though it might not be the best thing we've ever heard in our lives. They've taken part and hit a spot.

    I'd be opposed to PowerPoint to similar reasons to you although I am struggling to rationalise why I might object to that and not to words in a book or liturgical texts in black and red.

    So if I sound as if I'm pointing a finger, I'm always aware that there are three pointing back at me.

  • I think that even for more traditional and/or catholic Christians, some kind of technological change in how we tell congregants what words and notes to pray, sing, read, and reflect on during a service is needed, whether it is through projection, screens, tablets, or apps on congregants' own devices. Printing a new magazine-size worship bulletin every week seems like a tremendous waste, and there are often embarrassing moments when a change has to be made after all the photocopying and stapling is done. Hymnals, whether in book, tablet, or app form, will still be needed for those who read music, since it is hard to read notes on a projector.
  • I don't mean the following to sound patronising or flippant, but
    Sigh.
  • Yeah, alright Eutychus. Point taken. I dug a deeper hole. I should have stuck to a script and not extemporised myself into a corner.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    There is a down side to being slide preparer - you get to preview the service in advance. Not a good thing if the service looks like it’s going to be awful. I’ve chosen not to go to Church tomorrow as the preacher has made up the service from one you tube clip after another with awful hymns in between.

    If I were a regular punter I’d have just turned up and put up. But now I’m going to miss seeing my friends.

    Ho hum, never mind. :rolleyes: The dogs will get an extra walk.
  • I'd have thought that was a plus side, rather than a down-side. You can identify the crap in advance and take evasive action.

    I edit our parish magazine partly for the same reason - although I'm looking to hand it over to someone else.

    I can see the lists of services and who's down to preach and make a mental note to avoid those particular Sundays.

    Can you see your friends at other times and in other contexts?

    It can be tricky but since we moved here 10 years ago now I made a conscious effort to make friends and contacts outside of church. I'm glad I did.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    There is a down side to being slide preparer - you get to preview the service in advance.
    Not true, of course, if the worship leader/preacher prepares their own slides!

  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited April 2018
    Please don't tell me PowerPoint slides are mandatory for preaching too, now.

    Has there ever been a proprietary medium that has so decisively imposed itself as the required mode of communication without any thought given to what it does to the way information is communicated?
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    I'd have thought that was a plus side, rather than a down-side. You can identify the crap in advance and take evasive action.

    I’m a very easy going person, but if I see a crap service ahead I do avoid it. If I find myself in the middle of one I don’t worry, I just put-up-and-shut-up quite happily. Unlike my friend, who walks out.

    I should have said I won’t get to see my Church friends this week. I have plenty of others :)

  • Sure. I tend to put up and shut-up too, although I have been known to walk out on occasion, but not in a flounce-out kind of way.

  • Eutychus wrote: »
    Please don't tell me PowerPoint slides are mandatory for preaching too, now.

    Has there ever been a proprietary medium that has so decisively imposed itself as the required mode of communication without any thought given to what it does to the way information is communicated?

    The printing press? ;)

    Radio?

    The internet?

    One could say similar about other means of communication but I agree with you that there is something more insidious about PowerPoint.

    I've used it in talks/presentations when it adds very little to the matter in hand.

    The 9am service at our Anglican parish used to be a PowerPoint and video-free zone, unlike the 11am service which depends upon all that kit and kaboodle.

    Now the 9am service too has been invaded by inane videos and by bloody Shutterstock and clip-art images projected alongside the sermons.

    Is nothing sacred?

    It appears not.
  • Tell it not in Gath, but I've seen PowerPoint used at Catholic and Orthodox conferences, but not in worship, mercifully.

    It's ok if they are pointing out aspects of particular icons or showing paintings, maps or whatever else to illustrate particular points.

    I can (kind of) just about understand Boogie's reasoning for its use at her place but ... cue creepy music ... it's a slippery-slope. Before you know it you get crap services like the one Boogie is avoiding this coming Sunday.

    Some bozo weaving You Tube videos into his sermon because he thinks it's clever ...
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    Hmmm ... the BBC News used to be presented by smartly-suited announcers calmly reading their scripts. Of course the bulletins would include filmed inserts (not as many as today as the film had to be physically carted across the globe to the studio and then developed), still photos and spoken reports. Now everything has to be visual: there are constant projections behind the newscaster (yes, even on "Newsnight" and "Match of the Day"), still photographs have to grow in size, move across the screen and have moving backgrounds, even spoken interviews have a trace intended to reproduce sound waves, and so on. May I remind you of the clip I posted upthread which critiqued this trend 50 years ago: https://tinyurl.com/y9x7khb3. Frost got it dead right!

    Of course we shouldn't accept new technology uncritically: https://tinyurl.com/ya585abz. But we need to ask if, by rejecting it, we are genuinely being counter-cultural and giving space for folk to "reflect", or simply giving the impression of being fuddy-duddies stuck in a time-warp (and not catering for those who don't easily think in logical verbal ways).

    Equally we must ask if, by accepting it, we are catering better for people brought up today's visual age or selling our birthright for the sake of jumping on the latest bandwagon (there'll be another one along next year).
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    We need to cater for different learning styles. Or we're not catholic.
  • My wife would certainly agree with that.
  • I think there's a case for being consistent.

    No name's or pack-drill but a US missionary recently told me about a Californian pastor he knows who delivers his sermons from a couch, TV chat-show host style, who uses the latest lighting techniques and gizmos ... yet when he goes over to Guatemala, say, he sets up orphanages in a way that Charles Dickens would have considered 'behind the times' ...

    You can use all the latest technology and still be out of step.

    My concern about PowerPoint is that it becomes an 'expected' part of the furniture/presentation even though, very often, it has absolutely nothing to add or contribute to whatever is going on.

    All sound and fury signifying nothing.

    I've seen some very spikey online spats between the Orthodoxen over the presentation style of a particular radio station they run over in the US. It's accused of adopting a populist, more 'Protestant' style of presentation.

    I'm not sure what they are supposed to do.

    Intone 'Here ... is the news ...'
    'Let us attend.'
    'Good evening.'
    'And with thy spirit ...'

    But that's a radio station not a worship service.

    I really don't know what the answer is. It's the ubiquity of PowerPoint and online imagery that bugs me. I wouldn't mind so much if it actually added to our understanding in some way.

    But other people have said that already. Have a map of Judea up for your Bible study from Kings and Chronicles. Fine. Have a Shutterstock image of some flowers and waterfalls up while you're singing a song ... why? why?
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Have a Shutterstock image of some flowers and waterfalls up while you're singing a song ... why? why?

    No idea.

    I never put visuals up with hymn words. It makes the words much harder to read and distracts.

  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited April 2018
    Leo wrote: »
    We need to cater for different learning styles. Or we're not catholic.
    The question isn't what we're learning so much as what we're teaching. PowerPoint has severe, potentially fatal limitations as an instruction medium.

    It works as a way of delivering song lyrics (provided always no distracting backgrounds) but takes the power for choosing which songs to sing out of the hands of the congregation, which may be seen either as a bug or a feature. What gets me is not so much the choice made but when it's applied unthinkingly or solely as a concession to fashion.

  • Is that a particular feature of PowerPoint though, as against any other medium - be it a hymn book, order of service or whatever else?

    If I decide to sing a particular song at a service/meeting, does that somehow impinge on someone else's freedom if they happen to want to sing another song?

    Some Christian traditions are very prescriptive in terms of what is sung at what season and in what context. I'd have a pretty good idea what the 'troporia' or hymns are going to be if I went to the Orthodox this coming Sunday, for instance. Is that somehow depriving me or anyone else of our freedom?

    At our Anglican 9am service tomorrow there'll be an order of service with some hymns determined in advance - between the vicar and organist - that fit the particular theme ... generally not the lectionary one at our local evangelical parish.

    Is that someone discriminating against someone who might want to sing hymn 460 instead of 465?

    If anyone of us sings or chooses a song we are filling space that could be filled by someone else choosing a different one.

    I'm wary of PowerPoint too, but can't see how it's any more insidious or prescriptive in this respect than having a set order of service of whatever kind.



  • Eutychus wrote: »
    It works as a way of delivering song lyrics (provided always no distracting backgrounds) but takes the power for choosing which songs to sing out of the hands of the congregation, which may be seen either as a bug or a feature. What gets me is not so much the choice made but when it's applied unthinkingly or solely as a concession to fashion.

    So does hymnbooks and old-fashioned hymnboards

  • What if the congregation were to somehow decide collectively in advance what songs they wanted to sing at any particular meeting or service - and those were then placed on PowerPoint?

    Would that obviate the problem?

    I can understand reservations about PowerPoint. I share them myself, although perhaps for different reasons.

    What I can't understand is why you appear to see it as a particularly nefarious medium in this respect.

    My problem with it isn't so much that it's prescriptive - any order of service is prescriptive - but that it encourages lazy thinking and generally the presentations are pretty shit.
  • The way y'all feel about powerpoint is pretty much precisely the way I feel about podcasts.
    Because-- and this is key-- despite your pious claims, this has nothing at all to do with theology or ecclesiology or liturgy. It's about learning styles, plain and simple, as the visual learners here have quietly said many times (perhaps if we inserted an image of us shouting we'd get thru???) There are degrees of learning styles, some are strongly one way or another, some more in the middle. Those of us firmly in the visual camp have a hard time with an entirely auditory worship service-- or lecture, or presentation, or anything for that matter. I'm sorry that's inconvenient for you, but it does not make you more pious that you enjoy a visually barren field.

    Eutychus wrote: »
    Powerpoint usually suggests imposing the choice of someone at the front in worship over a choice made by anybody in the congregation.

    To my mind this, as a regular practice, infantilises the congregation and turns them into consumers instead of active worshippers being taught to participate.

    ...In other words, my decision not to have Powerpoint is a thought-out one with what I see as a thoroughly biblical teaching aim.

    What in the world does this mean? How exactly is projecting an image or a text any more "imposing" or controlling than, say, a liturgy-- or anything else we do in a worship service? Someone-- a preacher, a choir director, a liturgist-- is always "imposing" something on the congregation. How is it more controlling or limiting the freedom of the worshippers if what's being imposed is visual rather than only auditory??? Why do visual images "infanticize" the worshippers while auditory choices made in precisely the same fashion by precisely the same worship leaders are empowering???

    And what exactly is this lofty biblical teaching aim that you are upholding so virtuously by your courageous stance to eschew powerpoint???

    Eutychus wrote: »
    If you wish to continue politely mocking this approach to worship, instead of actually explaining the preferred advantages of your system without accompanying snark, perhaps we can carry on on the existing thread devoted to your patronising approach to other people's musical choices, in Hell.

    pot, meet kettle.

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