I don't know what I should do about church

A year and a half ago I left the church I had been going to for many years, and since then have been regularly attending another local church. It describes itself as ‘open evangelical’ which is the style of worship I have always been used to and feel most comfortable with.

My reasons for leaving were basically that the ‘old’ church had changed too much and I no longer felt comfortable with the way they did things; I felt (maybe wrongly) that older people were no longer welcome; most of the people I knew, including the few I counted as friends, had moved on (some because they also didn’t like the direction the church was taking; others because this is London, and it’s what people do) and the things I had been involved in which made me feel I belonged and was making a useful contribution were coming to a natural end. I hadn’t been happy for a long time and for a year before I finally left I had been visiting other churches on and off. But then one of the clergy – who I could talk to and who had always been supportive also moved on and I decided I couldn’t stay any longer.

It was a very difficult decision; I don’t like change. But I felt I had no choice.

I’ve tried really hard to fit in at my new church. It’s a lovely church and the people there are all very nice. Basically I like everything they do. It’s well organised, services are well prepared and thoughtful, I feel comfortable with the sort of songs we sing, the preaching is good. But I need more. After 18 months I still don’t feel I belong. I need to feel some sort of connection – with the other people and with God. And that is totally missing. I didn’t expect to make lots of friends – I’ve never been able to do that – but I did hope that by now I would feel more part of things.

I’ve tried, honestly! I’ve helped at a few church events (which I found difficult but forced myself to make the effort) took part in a weekend away, and I turn up regularly every Sunday. But that’s all it is – just turning up. I no longer have any sense that God actually exists, and where I once looked forward to Sundays as the best day of the week, I now go to church feeling depressed and come home – usually not having had a conversation with anyone – feeling even more depressed and lonely.

What am I doing wrong? Am I expecting too much?

I keep going
• Because I’m frightened to stop
• Because I haven’t got anything else to do on Sunday mornings
• Because If I didn’t go I would be even more lonely
• Because I keep hoping that that ‘something’ will happen and it will all start making sense again.

I feel I need to talk to someone but there isn’t anyone. I feel I need some sort of support. Which at my age is just ridiculous.

I had another birthday this month. It feels as if they come round every few weeks these days. I feel I’m running out of time. I’m lonely. I’m worried about what will happen when I retire. And I’m frightened of dying. And most of all, I want to feel about church and God the way I used to.

Does any of this make sense, and can anyone say anything that might help?

«13

Comments

  • Oh, dear Nuthatch..... I am humbled by your honesty, and deeply sad for your pain. I have no wisdom now, but will hold you in prayer that some opening come for you, and for all of us who carry that journey and pain.

    Yes, I've been there, got advice that was helpful, and much that was stupid or just plain bad. The helpful was from my bishop, who advised me, as a priest, to not go to church anywhere for nine months and see what God birthed in me. So I went for long walks on Sunday morning, breakfasts from non-church going friends, laughed some, wept more. More than nine months later some light dawned feebly.

    Be at peace for today.
  • Bless you Nuthatch, how you feel is how so many people feel, and you have verbalised it so well. God closes doors as well as opening them, and it is never comfortable. It is most irritating that God seems absent when we recognise that we need him the most, but actually the latter wouldn't happen without the former. You are hungry for God, which is not easy but it is good.

    I have the sense that God has a calling for you, and that the timing is his, it's part of the process. Trust in God. Know he is there, even though he seems not to be.

    Perhaps have a word with one of the ministers of the church, and ask whether there is anyone who might give you spiritual direction.

    Also tell them how you are feeling, and ask whether they can help you to feel a part of the church. It does take time, but stay with it as this church is being affirmed to you.

    My prayers are with you. Do pray for yourself, and spend time with God in silent prayer.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Nuthatch, I’m so sorry you’re struggling. I don’t know if this helps, but I don’t think I’ve ever fit in at any church I’ve gone to. I guess I just sort of see that as normal for me, and I just bumble along.

    I wonder if you might find it helpful to go on a guided retreat - to have a spiritual guide to talk to. Like an Ignatian guided retreat. I find this sort of thing such a breath of fresh air - it gives a bigger perspective, helps me see it’s okay to be me, that this is how God made me, that I don’t have to fit in.

    I will keep you in my prayers. 🕯
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Speaking purely from a secular perspective, it strikes me as an old friends/new friends thing.

    You socialise with new people, you get on well - but somehow, you just don’t have the history. We pass through times in our life which are significant and the people who were there are written into our sense of ourselves.

    You are where you are now, with a different set of expectations - which may be the basis for the connections you are missing. You mention retirement and aging and the isolation of aging - is there nobody in the congregation entering on the same phases?
  • Nuthatch, what a difficult time. I can relate a wee bit. I had to change churches because of age and driving issues. I have just never felt at home, with nice people but not able to feel I fit in, or that I have anything to offer that is needed.
    There are other issues with service, but not that important here.
    I took some time off when I felt drawn to become an associate in a religious order. This has given me a sense of community with like souls praying together daily for the needs of the world. I have also made an effort to connect with new friends, and volunteer in non church ways each week. At the moment my prayer is that God will show me where my gifts are needed. I wait to see where I end up. In the meantime when God closes a door, dance in the hallway.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    edited July 2018
    I'm probably not the right person to give advice: my relationship with church is tied up with my husband's work (he's a cathedral organist and I've always sung in his choir), so my connection is necessarily a slightly different one.

    Having said that, because of the way the services are arranged here, it's difficult to get to know people: there's no coffee after the choral service because of shortage of car-parking space, so I'm still sorting out names and faces after being here for two years! Also, when you're new, there's only one of you and lots of everyone else, so it's easier for them to remember you than the othr way around.

    I'd echo what Firenze said about looking out for contemporaries - you might find any number of soul-mates.

    Still holding you in my prayers, and hoping things will get better for you.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Thoughts and prayers, Nuthatch,
    I am out in the hot, searing, empty desert myself. It is hard and sad too. And there's no end in sight. I take comfort in my international network of friends, but of course I don't MEET them so there is that lack there.
    I do wish you well.
    I think BabyWombat says very wise things (as always).
    TIME is indeed something that gives a space in which new things can happen
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    I can but offer you my best wishes, Nuthatch.

    I am in the empty desert Galilit mentioned; almost 5 years of non-regular attendance. Perhaps more. I've lost count. I tried to make tentative steps to the Catholic church nearby 2 years ago, but let my anxiety get to me once anyone made contact -- the priest especially.

    I can identify with the speaking to the ministers or the retreat mentioned above. Both have done me good.

    I don't know if this will help, if not dismiss it without another thought, but when I moved away from friends and family I sought friends to dispel any loneliness in activities outside church -- my personal interests -- looking for groups or classes. Could that fill part of the loneliness void? Or do you ache for Christian fellowship?

    As Galilit wrote, I wish you well.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Nuthatch, I went through a few years of not belonging to a local church for a very specific reason ( not relevant here) though I attended various ones on an occasional basis. I know the feeling of not belonging, of missing friendships on a weekly basis, of not feeling spiritually nourished.
    Fortunately the three churches I have joined subsequently ( consecutively, because of moves, not all at once) made me very welcome and I felt I belonged each time.

    I think I can put it down to individuals in each case who went a few steps further than a general welcome and got to know me a bit. It helped that we had things in common ( same profession, both singers in choirs).

    So is there someone in your new church with whom you may have some common ground? Could you open up a bit to let others know a bit about you?

    Another thing is not to hope for all your needs to be met through church.
    After retirement I have done some volunteering. Made many good acquaintances, have regular contact with others, learnt new skills etc.
    Hope this helps.
  • A difficult place in which to be, Nuthatch, but keep going to church anyway - and perhaps have a quiet word with the minister (not necessarily just after the service), as others have suggested.

    Do keep us posted as to how you get on, if you feel that you can.

    Blessings,

    IJ
  • ChoristerChorister Shipmate
    Have you burnt your bridges with the old place? Someone I know decided to go back occasionally to the old place as well as start somewhere new. Then the overlap helped them as they started to make new contacts in the new church.

    Don't forget other ways of community - if you are getting older then a group like U3A (or similar) would be very useful. They have speakers and lots of interest groups - and are full of Christians, atheists, people of other faith, agnostics - you may find your life is richer from knowing all these other people too.
  • A good thought - a local U3A used to meet in our church hall until they had to find somewhere else.....(it's a long story, but their leader ended up in prison,and we had to make a quick decision to rent the hall full-time to a new pre-school Nursery - it wasn't us falling out in any way with U3A).

    I was sorry to see them go - a fine group (apart from the criminal leader, that is!). I'd welcome them back, if we had the facilities.

    IJ
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I may be barking up the wrong tree, but once you're retired, I bet the Altar Guild and similar groups within the church would give their collective eye-teeth for a new member. It may seem like a bit of a chore, but it would introduce a new circle of friends.
  • Piglet wrote: »
    I may be barking up the wrong tree, but once you're retired, I bet the Altar Guild and similar groups within the church would give their collective eye-teeth for a new member. It may seem like a bit of a chore, but it would introduce a new circle of friends.

    It depends on the church. I've attended some churches where joining the Altar Guild is by invitation only, and they are very selective.

  • Nuthatch

    I may be projecting my experience onto you so feel free to ignore. After spending twenty years is a church but feeling as if I did not belong, I really have some unlearning to do at my current place of worship which has welcomed me. Do not get me wrong the church I went to looked on paper like a perfect fit. I was so involved in the structures that I held albeit briefly one of the senior roles. Yet there was something missing as with most members I felt they were always making a special effort to get on with me. In the end, I had a clear choice and I could not do what was required to stay.

    I half feel like saying trust your instinct. If you do not feel that you fit despite the church ticking all the boxes then I would suggest that you may indeed not fit. I also wonder if you are ready for a new congregation yet. I spent three years without a worshipping congregation after I left. Now that was a long break and there were reasons, though I tried a couple of times different places for brief stays and failed at both.

    We tend to judge congregations on quite a superficial level. Where I am at present does not tick the boxes the way my old place did but I have also found that my old place was not healthy for me. There was a mismatch at a far deeper and more profound level than I realised. I will struggle to verbalise what that was but there is something at the new place which despite it very openly not ticking the boxes speaks to my heart.
  • In my experience, churches are not always good at welcoming singletons, particularly if they have an image of themselves as family friendly.
  • In my experience, they think they do their best to be welcoming. But being a single middle-aged gay man of passionate intellectual and musical tendencies, points of connection are often vanishingly few.

    I think I've just accepted this as a fact, but it hurts, especially when my network of friends/ connections is not exactly in great shape otherwise. Serves me right, apparently, for having enthusiasms typically shared by the elderly rural population.
  • NuthatchNuthatch Shipmate
    Thank you for all the comments. They're really helpful. I'd like to respond to some of them - and will do when I can get my thoughts in order. Thanks again.
  • NuthatchNuthatch Shipmate
    Can I just say for now that this is one reply that seems to fit with my own thinking at the moment:
    A difficult place in which to be, Nuthatch, but keep going to church anyway - and perhaps have a quiet word with the minister (not necessarily just after the service), as others have suggested.

    IJ

    Yes I will keep going. I feel it's essential for me that I do keep going to church because if I stop I'll never get started again, and in spite of all the problems, leaving church altogether is the last thing I want to do.

    I would also very much like to talk to the vicar but I don't really know how to go about it or what to say or even if it's a reasonable thing to do. I did have a chat with him when i first started at the church so he knows where I've come from and a bit about why. I did try to talk to him again a few months ago but he sort of brushed me aside and suggested I speak to the curate - who is really nice but not someone I feel I can talk to, partly because she speaks very quietly and i can't actually hear her very well .

    Thanks again to EVERYONE who has replied. I'm still re-reading all the comments and trying to process them.
  • I'm saddened to hear that you felt as if you were brushed aside, Nuthatch. I wonder whether ministers are always conscious that it isn't easy for people to approach them or to know what to say, and yet listening to people and helping them on their spiritual journey is one of the most vital elements of their ministry. Perhaps ask the the vicar if you can make an appointment to talk to him.
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    One thing I have learned over the years as a member of several churches--if you want to talk to the pastor, timing is everything. He/she may be in the middle of thinking about something else and not really hear what you're saying.

    When I want to talk to my rector, I send an e-mail with the title, 'I want to talk to you'. Then I ask what time would be convenient for him.
  • ChoristerChorister Shipmate
    What Raptor Eye and Moo said.
  • Climacus wrote: »
    ... when I moved away from friends and family I sought friends to dispel any loneliness in activities outside church -- my personal interests -- looking for groups or classes. Could that fill part of the loneliness void? Or do you ache for Christian fellowship?

    I tried all that when I was much younger. I can't do it. I've accepted that now. What I want is to be part of a church. I've never been able to make friends. Talking to people and any sort of social contact are very difficult for me. I'm better than I was when I was younger but I'll never be 'normal'. [Yes, I know, who is?] Church is the only place where I've ever come near to feeling normal, feeling accepted. I want that again. I want to belong and contribute. Like I did at my other church before they changed everything and I felt pushed out [although I know I wasn't really}
    Chorister wrote: »
    Have you burnt your bridges with the old place? Someone I know decided to go back occasionally to the old place as well as start somewhere new. Then the overlap helped them as they started to make new contacts in the new church.

    Yes, I could go back, There will be some people there that I still know - and the vicar said I would be welcome there at any time - but all the people I had support from have gone, and so much has changed and it just makes me angry and upset seeing what they've done to it. It just wouldn't work.

    Oh, and I just wanted to say I maybe misled people by talking about retirement. I won't be retiring for at least two years, and hopefully longer ... but I worry about it because if I feel like this now it will only be worse when I haven't got a job to go to.

    I went to church this morning, and while there are lots of people there who know me by name now and who are all very nice, there is no-one I can be honest with or tell how I really feel.

    Sorry, none of this is very coherent. I'll shut up now...

  • Please don't. It is coherent. Just a lot going on. Thanks for sharing.

    My thoughts are with you. I'm not a natural communicator and it takes effort. It can be hard.
  • @Nuthatch can you ask your GP for a referral to a mental health professional? Reading your thread next to the one discussing dealing with a mental health diagnosis, I wonder if there is something that has not been diagnosed that could be treated or supported?
  • I've done all that in the past. I've been referred to various people over the years and none of it proved particularly helpful.
  • It's OK Nuthatch. You are who you are. I found the Enneagram eye opening, as it helped me not only to understand the way I look at and relate with other people, but also how others do.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 2018
    Keep at it, Nuthatch, and (as was said earlier) do see if you can get to have a quiet word with your minister, just to explain how things are with you.

    Ministers, Pastoral Assistants etc., do often need to be told, especially if someone is not in obvious immediate distress or need, so that practical support and/or prayer can then be offered intelligently, IYSWIM.

    IJ
  • It might well help to talk to some clergyperson or leader.

    But I wonder if chatting to, say, a Samaritan over the phone might be useful? They're trained to be impartial, supportive, non-judgemental and to give lots of listening space, so being articulate and coherent, or under pressure to make oneself understood, isn't a requirement.

    Someone like that, with that kind of non-directive listening skill might enable you to a wider perspective on what you're experiencing, beyond simply church issues. Might reassure you, too. It couldn't do any harm.

    Take care.
  • Thank you Anselmina, it's something to think about but I'm not sure I would find that helpful. It's my church situation that's the main issue for me at the moment and talking to someone who possibly/probably? has no understanding of church or why I would want to be part of one would just be frustrating. I know. I've done it.

    What might be a small step forward is that last Sunday I had a short chat with one of the Readers (or whatever the new name for them is these days - I can never remember) at church. I didn't say most of the things I feel I need to say but at least someone is now aware that I'm not happy and just being able to share some of that helped a little bit. He said he would "be in touch to see how you're getting on". I'm not sure if that means anything or nothing.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    I hope it means something.
    But whatever ... it was a nice thing to say if he looked you in the eye and sounded sincere. Most people are nice really when faced with a troubled fellow-human. They just don't know what to say or do next . (Which is not a criticism of them - how often does it happen to us all?)
    But they (we) do care in the moment and that is not nothing. I have found that even a moment of listening or a word of sympathy makes me feel a bit better. Especially when I think about that person saying that later on. "How kind", I think to myself quietly
  • Schroedingers CatSchroedingers Cat Shipmate, Waving not Drowning Host
    I sympathise - having had difficult relationships with churches over the years. One thing that I found really useful was to develop spiritual connections and relationships outside the church (in a sense, you are by being here, but less virtual is also good). It meant that I wasn't so totally dependent on the church for my relationship with God. SO I could engage as I needed.

    Oddly, I thikn it made my connection with the church stronger a lot of the time. Possibly not as comfortable (either side), but I was able to get involved without needing to, without my spiritual development being dependent on it.

    I think it meant that i could bring something extra. Not that this was always welcomed, of course. It meant I was less stressed about a need to change. Or about losing connection totally. When I did leave - for a couple of years - I grew in my faith. WHich is why I knew it was the right thing to do.
  • You say that there is nobody in the church yet that you are able to talk to about how you feel. But there may well be someone designated by the church to be responsible for Pastoral Care. If you ask your minister, he would be able to direct you to that person. As well as visiting those who are unwell, the whole point of Pastoral Care ministry is to give time to people like yourself who are having difficulties. You just need to find out who these people are and then make an appointment to see them and talk about the situation.
  • Speaking only for myself...

    I know those people exist but to me I feel approaching them is very formal and would lead to some sustained engagement, whether I want it to or not. I realise I may be very odd or have it the wrong way around, but I would not feel comfortable approaching such a person. I'd feel more comfortable approaching the priest for a chat first.

    Just my weird thoughts. I am a problem I think sometimes. Screwy thinking and all that.
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    Climacus wrote: »
    Just my weird thoughts. I am a problem I think sometimes. Screwy thinking and all that.

    We're all like that. The problem is that many people think everyone can be pigeonholed.

  • Nuthatch wrote: »
    What I want is to be part of a church. I've never been able to make friends. Talking to people and any sort of social contact are very difficult for me. I'm better than I was when I was younger but I'll never be 'normal'.

    I'm not at all good at people. If I wasn't married, I'm not sure I'd have any actual friends - mostly what I have/have had are people I work with or do whatever with whom I am friendly. But then they move away and we don't keep in touch.

    I went through a grey patch where I wasn't really feeling anything at church, had no sense of God being present and so on. The thing that got me through was just going through the motions. Turning up every week, singing, praying - without any sense that there was anything there, but doing it anyway. It took probably a year of nothing before I recovered some sense of God's presence. If I had given up on church, I don't think I'd have got that back. Not sure if this helps or not.

    While I'm here, let me add myself to Climacus's list of people who don't want to be the target of pastoral ministry. I don't want you to spend time with me because it's your job.
  • Hmm. With all due respect to duly trained and licensed Pastoral Assistants etc., I think I see what Climacus and Leorning Cniht are getting at. IME a great deal of pastoral work at Our Place is done informally, and in a very low-key manner, and I've no doubt other churches work in the same way.

    However, that might certainly not work for everyone, or be true in everyone's case.

    @Nuthatch, do keep quietly in touch with the sympathetic Reader you mentioned earlier. At least he listened to you, and took on board what you were saying, and where you were coming from.

    Blessings

    IJ
  • Nuthatch wrote: »
    Thank you Anselmina, it's something to think about but I'm not sure I would find that helpful. It's my church situation that's the main issue for me at the moment and talking to someone who possibly/probably? has no understanding of church or why I would want to be part of one would just be frustrating. I know. I've done it.

    That's fair enough! I just got the impression from your opening post that the questions and challenges you were struggling with weren't just restricted in a narrow way to 'church', but about life in general, loneliness, and interaction with fellow human beings, etc.

    Personally I find that an objective perspective by an outside trained listener helps me to articulate to myself what my problem is; even when they have no experience or technical knowledge of that problem. And in fact I doubt very much if I had a serious problem with a particular congregation, as a worshipper, I would initially at any rate seek for a solution within that congregation. I'm a great fan of the use of a good spiritual director. But that's just me!



    Good luck!
  • [quote= I don't want you to spend time with me because it's your job.
    While I understand this, at least if you are talking to clergy, it is all part of our job. You are our job, but that doesn't mean that we don't love you. I spend time with many people, because it is my job. But that doesn't make the friendship unreal. I love that part of my job!

    Somehow, I am reminded of the church member who phoned and suggested I came to see her (as her minister, for pastoral conversation, not for dinner) on Saturday "Because you are so busy and I know that is your day off."

  • O dear - you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't!

    Blessings be upon that church member. but perhaps she simply hadn't grasped what the role of her Minister actually is....

    The same does apply to licensed Lay Ministers (I speak for the C of E), but hopefully we are all approachable at any time, and under any circumstance. I know that, if I were asked to visit person X at any time of day or night (with, or without, the Blessed Sacrament), I would do my best to do so.

    IJ
  • It would truly be a luxury to be in a church where the pastoral care was carried out by a paid employee! Usually it is a very dedicated volunteer who has been selected for the role because they are naturally good at it. I, for one, find it helpful to know that there is a dedicated person in that role, to whom I can refer someone - with their permission, of course - just as I am glad that there is now a dedicated safeguarding officer, to whom I can refer families and vulnerable adults.
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    While I understand this, at least if you are talking to clergy, it is all part of our job. You are our job, but that doesn't mean that we don't love you.

    And this is partly why, lovely though my current priest is, he's not really a friend. I like him a lot, we've had him and his wife over for dinner a couple of times, and we get on well. But I'm still his job, so we're not friends, just like I wasn't friends with any of my teachers at school.

    I do have a couple of friends who are parish priests, but I've never lived in their parishes. If I did, I'd happily attend their church, but would need to make different arrangements for pastoral care.
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    While I understand this, at least if you are talking to clergy, it is all part of our job. You are our job, but that doesn't mean that we don't love you.

    And this is partly why, lovely though my current priest is, he's not really a friend. I like him a lot, we've had him and his wife over for dinner a couple of times, and we get on well. But I'm still his job, so we're not friends, just like I wasn't friends with any of my teachers at school.

    I do have a couple of friends who are parish priests, but I've never lived in their parishes. If I did, I'd happily attend their church, but would need to make different arrangements for pastoral care.
    Yes, I get that, completely.
  • Hmm... I wasn't going to talk about why I've been absent from the Ship for so long, but the topic of this thread is part of the reason (plus some other stuff). Our church was known for good preaching and the best music for miles around, though our numbers were modest. This morning, we were howled at by the praise band for over half an hour and then shouted at by the minister for almost as long. Then we went home. I didn't feel as if I'd been to church. We probably now have the best attendance and lowest average age of any congregation in the presbytery, so it's not them; it's me. I need a more contemplative kind of worship, and I think it's time to find it somewhere else.
  • We sound similar, Stercus Tauri.

    I am sorry. Not sure what else to say. Good luck with your searching.
  • Sounds like the extroverts are not giving the introverts space. Because they don't understand the need. I would have thought that a church which changes so dramatically should put the noisier services on as an alternative to the existing one, rather than to replace one with the other.
  • Agreed, Chorister.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Yes - all the evidence I know of says that if you want to offer a service in a different style, you have an additional one. Otherwise, you lose your old congregation and may not build up a new one. There are a lot of books around on the subject, many geared to England
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I'd go along with that too. We have three services on a Sunday morning: a said BCP communion at 8, choral communion at 10, which alternates between BCP and BAS (modern words) and a more informal communion at 11:45 with the band (who are not uncomfortably loud), and that seems to cater for most tastes.

    The only problem is that the three congregations don't often get a chance to meet, and because of the tight turn-round after the 10 o'clock service, there's no chance for the choir to socialise with the congregation at all (there's coffee after both the other services), which is unfortunate. After being here for over two years, I'm still being introduced to people, which seems odd, but it can't really be helped.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2018
    Well, there's not much one can do about that, if the services are that close together.

    IIRC, the late +Michael Perham reckoned that, if resources permitted, a 930am Parish Eucharist might be followed at 1115am or thereabouts by a less formal service, allowing both congregations to socialise between them (yes, I realise that choral cathedral services might take a little over the hour!).

    My impression is that, these days, in the UK at least, the less formal service is better held on a Sunday afternoon or early evening....

    That is certainly the case in our neck of the woods, where Sunday 230pm or 3pm services are being held in at least three churches - NOT in competition with the usual morning services, but IN ADDITION to them. A different demographic...

    None of which helps Stercus Tauri, I know, but, as others have said, I sympathise.

    IJ
Sign In or Register to comment.