Is a collect prayer needed?
PhilipV
Shipmate
I might have missed the lecture about the relevance of the Collect/ Prayer of the day. Is it useful or essential - and, if so, why? A prayer is always a Good Thing; just not clear on its special value, if you see what I mean. I tend to think of it as a dispensable (albeit nice) specialisation.
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Whether or not it is 'useful' is another question. Its function in the eucharist is to 'collect' or sum up the prayers of the community gathered for worship. We all arrive in church in various states of preparedness; we may have worries or concerns, things we want to give thanks for, or just want space to clear our minds. The presiding minister should recognise this and after the initial greeting allow a time of silence for those thoughts to settle, summing them up in the spoken prayer. I don't see the point in saying 'let us pray' and then launching straight into the collect without giving people chance to pray first.
I love Collects!
So succinct!
Though I wouldn't call those two particularly 'succinct'.
The RCC daily Mass collects (which we use during the week) are often short, and very much to the point, but they sometimes sound to me as if they've been written by people whose first language isn't English, IYSWIM.
This RC member wholeheartedly agrees with your final sentence. Te translation of 2011 is an abomination that explicitly tries to keep to Latin sentence structure and words with Latin rather than Germanic roots. There has been furious online discussion about it.
Matthew 6.8....Your Father knows what things ye have need of before ye ask him.
Yes, I've been told that many RCs heartily dislike the 2011 liturgy.
An interesting thought. I wonder if anyone's tried it? Would you suggest having the Collect immediately after the Gospel, and before the sermon/homily - in fact, leading into the sermon/homily?
Go on! Try it! I dare you!
I had not previously thought of the collect following the readings.... it's interesting.
My experience is that this works very well at Vespers.
Because our mission is currently priestless and our only weekly service is Vespers on Saturday evenings, we have our bishop's blessing to incorporate the Divine Liturgy readings into the office, and I usually give a homily after the Gospel.
With the psalm antiphons, the Ecclesiastical Psalm, the readings, the homily, and the Magnificat antiphon all reinforcing the mystery/theme throughout the office, the Collect in its natural place towards the end is very effective.
I think the Divine Liturgy already has enough that reinforces the mystery being celebrated all throughout the service so that there would be no real benefit to moving the collect. In our rite at least, it would seem like tampering for the sake of tampering. The praelegendum (which is what our rite calls what is known in the Roman rite as the introit), the hymn, the readings, the gradual, the Alleluia or tract, the homily, the variable parts of the anaphora, as well as other occasional variables, all reflect the theme, and I would go so far as to say that the variables in the anaphora are usually more expositional than the collect.
In the offices the Collect comes at the end as part of the prayers. In the Eucharist the placing is very different. In either case there may be no clear relationship between the collect and the readings.
In the Eucharist I take it as a moment when the underlying stream of prayer in the worship comes to the surface (to borrow Michael Perham’s imagery). I try to have looked at the collect sufficiently in advance to have a sense of its theme and purpose. I invite everyone to pray in silence with a brief bidding that fits the theme of the collect, then allow a period for silent prayer before ending it with the collect.
The arch comment I got from an RC friend when the 2011 came out was 'I rather like the idea of a Mass in English. Regrettably the Vatican has not yet managed to authorize one.'
He dislikes both the 1970s translation as clunky, and the 2011 as too Latinate. His current preference is to go to a Latin Mass either ordinary or extraordinary form depending on what is available.
Collects are something I love, and I even have a fair few memorized, though I have to confess that I find the 1662 easier to memorize than the modern liturgy. At the Lord's Supper they serve to direct our thoughts before we heard the word of God read, whilst at the Office they can often provide a leaping off point for the intercessions before the sermon.
IMO, the 'contemporary' version isn't. It's not quite achieving a sense of holiness in the everyday, which seems necessary. There is still arcane terminology which could appeal to a specialist audience but what if you want to reach a third group for whom Rites I and II does not communicate? The average person will not appreciate: "mercifully grant", "zealous", "multiply", "godly", "armour of light", etc. Most would probably get "cleanse" and "rock of faith".
Yeah, we do this, too. I've always thought of the collect for that Sunday (or Feast Day) as even less dispensable than some other rubric bits and bobs (mutter.... creed... mutter), because it summarises the point of the service. It kind of says, 'this is why we're here, God, help us to <whatever it is> Amen'. I notice that the Scottish Episcopal Church has some alternative provision for collects, of variable quality; and re-written others. Some collects - especially as I remember the CofE ones, are a bit wordy and dense to say the least.
And quite right too. It is a purely personal bugbear, and I wouldn't inflict it on anyone else.
The options for the Creed are (a) the Nicene Creed, (b) the Apostles' Creed, or (c) any other 'authorised Affirmation of Faith'.
The latter might be used, say, at an All-Age Service, where the Liturgy of the Word might be shortened, or incorporated into the Baptism part of the service, if that forms part of the Sunday Eucharist (it's a sort of question-and-answer form of the Apostles' Creed).
Don't forget the Athanasian Creed, for when you want to ensure maximum length and minimal return attendance for your service.
I once attended a Lutheran service on Trinity Sunday for which the pastor was very excited to have planned a responsive recitation of the Athanasian Creed (which is provided in the hymnal). As he greeted me after the service, I said I found that "interesting." He leaned toward one of my ears and whispered, "Never again!"
Does it include all the threats of hell for not believing precisely the right thing?
Rather than say the Athanasian, sing Messiah instead. Not much longer, but will ensure a large return crowd. At the same time, perfectly orthodox as well as non-sectarian.
Ps 23 as a creed? That sounds interesting, but I've never come across it. Where does that happen please?
My feelings about that issue are consubstantial with yours.
I think it's rather telling that the CofE hasn't even bothered to come up with a version of the Athanasian Creed in modern language, they just refer you to the BCP.
I've often used Ps 23 at funerals, but not as a creed. In fact, I've never thought of having a creed at a funeral.
E6 itself is quite often used at baptisms. E8 is a metrical creed so that it can be be sung to a hymn tune. I think some of the others are intended to be seasonal.
Irrespective of what the 1662 Prayer Book orders, I've never heard the Athanasian Creed said or sung. It had died out by my childhood which was in the days when all services were 1662.
This is NOT the main service of the day, but precedes the Parish Mass. It is usually attended only by the priest, and Madam Sacristan.
I understand that the customary accompanying hosts of Saints and Angels take a fag break whilst it is being dronedsaid.
I agree that E7 attributes its inspiration to the Athanasian Creed, Its flavour isn't that close. Just as E9-12 get theirs from passages of scripture, some stick much more closely to the originals than others.
The Nicene Creed has been normative at a Communion Service, and the Apostles' for Morning and Evening Prayer.
There's a suggestion higher up the page, that if people are going to ring the changes,
- Affirmation 4 (Apostles' Creed conventional) is particularly suitable for the Incarnation and Lent;
- Affirmation 5 (Apostles' Creed question and answer) for the Resurrection and memorial services;
- Affirmation 6 (Baptism service question and answer) for Advent, Trinity and Heaven; and
- Affirmation 2 (Nicene Creed question and answer) for the Incarnation and Trinity.
The collect also sets up the theme of the Gospel that follows. For instance, the collect for the third Sunday of Epiphany is
The Gospel for the 3rd Sunday of Epiphany (St. Matthew 8.1-13) is about the leper who seeks to be healed and then the centurion who intercedes on behalf of his servant.
In many American Lutheran congregations, the congregants themselves are invited to recite the prayer of the day in unison.
*shudders*
One of our neighbouring churches used to do this Awful Thing, until an enlightened new incumbent put a stop to it.
'The liturgist'??? Don't you mean the presiding minister? (Priest or otherwise).