... The drift to IRL engagement with the Westralian shippies was fascinating ... I caught up with several of them over there about three or years back (gracias, FD & C). The drift probably followed Jug's westward drift.
Sadly Mr Curly I'm rarely in your neck of the woods so we've never IRLed (though I am - was - often in other parts of your State). I was at a shipmeet in Byron Bay, but missed the one in Orange/Bathurst. That, centred on Jug's holifying gig, was a few, maybe several weeks earlier, just as I joined the Ship. I have enjoyed meets in Melbourne, Auckland, Wellington, Hamilton and Chicago though, as well as countless Ship inspired gatherings around the place, especially Brisbane (and Wankydilla, eh, @Climacus?).
Oh and @Mili - as long as you don't murder axes or mind dogs, we do have some spare room if you need it in the Deep South (ie. souther than 45).
Thanks for the offer Zappa. The planned holiday is not a guided tour, but I have purchased a travel pass for the Trans Alpine out of Christchurch and bus tickets down the west coast to visit Franz Josef and do a day tour of Milford Sound, then finish up in Queenstown. If I have to postpone I will probably do the same, but I'm not making any plans yet.
I'm pretty much putting the future out of mind and getting by day by day as things are a bit grim in Melbourne right now. On the plus side Covid is not totally out of control, but on the depressing side we got where we are now through mistakes, carelessness and about 25 percent of people with the virus continuing to go out when they should have been at home. I really though that figure would be more like 1 to 5 percent and it is depressing to know so many either don't care about others or don't believe the virus is serious. At least in my area we have low numbers and cases are decreasing by 2 or 3 a day. My suburb only has 3 cases so at least I feel pretty safe going to the local supermarket at a quiet time once a fortnight. I think that is why I assumed most people were doing the right thing, because I live in a low crime area where a lot of people can work from home and are well educated and socially responsible.
@Mr Curly
In 2009/10 I was visiting Sydney for a week every month while my sister-in-law was dying from liver cancer, and usually met Lothlorien for a coffee somewhere in the inner west. She introduced me to a friend who was chaplain to the St John's Ambulance, and who was part of the encouragement for me to take chaplaincy studies.
My council will be meeting at the end of the month to decide whether we will start church in a building mid September.
"It falleth as the gentle rain from heaven" . Yes, actual rain here for the past 2 days, with about 60mm so far, all beautifully gentle and soaking in. No we're not in New Zealand (where this would be unremarkable) but ~150 km inland from the east coast of NSW, in a place where rain is something to be celebrated.
"It falleth as the gentle rain from heaven" . Yes, actual rain here for the past 2 days, with about 60mm so far, all beautifully gentle and soaking in. No we're not in New Zealand (where this would be unremarkable) but ~150 km inland from the east coast of NSW, in a place where rain is something to be celebrated.
That is very good to hear. It is raining on the coast at Newcastle, had 5 mls over night with heavy rain over the last hour or so
"It falleth as the gentle rain from heaven" . Yes, actual rain here for the past 2 days, with about 60mm so far, all beautifully gentle and soaking in. No we're not in New Zealand (where this would be unremarkable) but ~150 km inland from the east coast of NSW, in a place where rain is something to be celebrated.
It wasn't so gentle at my daughter's place on the coast at Port Kembla. 106mm overnight Friday and woke to the swimming pool overflowing and water lapping the back door on Saturday morning.
And even the gentle rain ☔️ (much needed by farmers and gardens) has created minor flooding in Queanbeyan and Bungendore and a kayaker has died on the Murrumbidgee not far from Tharwa.
So apparently our cathedral roof caught fire this morning (3:30 a.m.). So glad not to be a dean any more (wish the green fella didn't look quite so spiteful ... more an ironical smile needed here)
I was just reading about that...sad news. And now I can never look at the green smiley without thinking of spite.
And, yes, Wankydilla was indeed fun. As was the minibus trip out to see Jugular where I was picked up on the M4 service station. What days... And what wonderful people.
In locked-down Melbourne, does pastoral care count as care-giving? Are clergy allowed to visit the elderly, forexample, even outside their 5km radius? If so, do they need a permit, and if so, who signs it as their employer? Would it be their bishop? And if their bishop lives interstate, or even overseas, who then?
I went to bed early and was woken at midnight by my phone making the siren noises of a disaster. The text locked up so I came online to discover more. Assorted profanities followed. I was really glad the Director General of Health reminded us a couple of days ago that the possibility of new cases was when not if, so although the news isn't great, it wasn't totally unexpected, but it is disappointing,
Auckland is in level 3 lockdown until midnight Friday, and the rest of us at Alert level 2. I can't remember quite what that means, but wish I had stayed in the Supermarket longer this afternoon and bought milk.
I am so glad I didn't go to Wellington for my brother's birthday as I imagine care homes are battening down.
Zappa, not good, but sounds like Fire Brigade did a good job.
They did (need "not worthy" emoji here) ... from what I've gleaned from the boss it was about thirty seconds from flash point in the nave below, and while fully involved in the roof not yet at structural level. OTOH the scaffolding that has been up for months was only removed last Thursday
Fortunately I don't go there often now - even pulling back from the weekly Te Hakiri Tapu liturgy now the new dean is up and running
Timing is all Zappa, glad Kuruman wasn't caught in Auckland. I know travellers are allowed home, but the reality probably involves more waiting around,
In locked-down Melbourne, does pastoral care count as care-giving? Are clergy allowed to visit the elderly, for example, even outside their 5km radius? If so, do they need a permit, and if so, who signs it as their employer? Would it be their bishop? And if their bishop lives interstate, or even overseas, who then?
In the UCA I understand that ministers are employed by their presbytery, which covers a region of the state. Salaries are paid by their congregation. I think Melbourne is two presbyteries. In NSW the councils of UCA congregations have the responsibility for enduring all activities comply with Covid safety plan requirements.
In locked-down Melbourne, does pastoral care count as care-giving? Are clergy allowed to visit the elderly, forexample, even outside their 5km radius? If so, do they need a permit, and if so, who signs it as their employer? Would it be their bishop? And if their bishop lives interstate, or even overseas, who then?
Hello, I normally just read, but I had to log in because I can answer this question, at least for the Anglicans. Pastoral visits not allowed in the flesh. The Bishop has issued a permit which is uploaded by clergy so they can go to the church building to broadcast services, clergy then issue a separate one for the organist, camera person etc. So teenage son has a permit to man the mobile phone on Sunday. My husband has been faithfully ringing every member of our parish once a fortnight since March. Those who are elderly or in other ways vulnerable, weekly. ( Praise God for unlimited calls). He has also added to his list others we know who are struggling or have started watching or at request of others ( ie someone’s brother in law etc). He is only allowed to visit hospital if people are actually dying and even then it is unclear, His oaths and declarations for becoming area dean will be done by zoom.Plans for celebrations of the centenary of the small church building in December are on hold. As are holidays.
[quote=In the UCA I understand that ministers are employed by their presbytery, which covers a region of the state. Salaries are paid by their congregation. I think Melbourne is two presbyteries. In NSW the councils of UCA congregations have the responsibility for enduring all activities comply with Covid safety plan requirements.[/quote]
Here in NZ Presbyterian ministers are paid by their congregation but it is a stipend not a salary — perhaps someone can explain the difference?
We have no United church as such but plenty of 'union' or 'uniting' congregations, typically but not necessarily Presy/Metho. They owe allegiance to both central bodies ie they have to be represented at Presy General Assembly and Metho Annual Conference; ministers are supposed to be appointed alternately by Presy and Metho, but may come from anywhere — I don't know where Sue at our neighbouring parish came from but the previous minister was originally Baptist and the one before him Sally Army (two elders were licensed by Presbytery to preside at Communion) . Both great ministers and both still members of the congregation.
Thankyou very much, @Elizabeth Bennett It saddens me greatly that so much thought and money is being poured into support for mental health, while people's spiritual health is totally discounted. If only clergy were allowed to be more proactive the burden on those "manning" the support phone lines might be lessened. Phone calls and streamed services have their value and may be useful to some, but there are many of us who want to be even two or three gathered together for worship and not left thirsting in a land of dry wells.
Best wishes for all negotiating streaming or conducting services.
Like Huia I was startled by the emergency warning as my phone's camera light flashed and the phone made important noises. Hopefully the (valid and allowed) travel they made does not cause outbreaks elsewhere.
cgichard if Australia is anything like NZ then the extra support for mental health is probably saving lives. I realise that being in a spiritual desert may be challenging - what would you like clergy, or others to be doing differently?
Even most mental health appointments are online during Stage 4 lock downs. You can meet with one person within your 5 km radius for one hour exercise a day, so theoretically a church leader/pastor/priest could meet up with a local parishioner outside and masked. Or you could go on a prayer walk with a local friend or fellow congregant. Otherwise anything in person is not considered essential, so not allowed. The worst is for people in hospitals, where the medical staff are doing most of the in person emotional support, even for the dying, and helping with technology to communicate with families. I'm not sure if hospital chaplains are still working or not.
I feel like I'm really living the Covid 19 experience after a run in with an anti-masker yesterday. I was walking home from work and noticed a 30ish, healthy looking man with no mask standing at a bus stop. His friend or partner seemed to be sleeping or otherwise semi-conscious on the bus stop bench, so possibly they were drug affected. I decided to give them a wide berth and the man started yelling and ranting at me, asking if and why I was afraid to die and what did I think I would die from? At least he kept his distance and didn't spit or try to pull my mask off, but not something I would have expected in my local area, especially as I never pass more than 15 people during my walk because of the lock down rules. I was a bit shaken and hope he didn't harass too many others or get in a fight with a bus driver who wouldn't have allowed him on the bus. But it's unlikely I will see him again as I have never seen him before.
Tomorrow is my Nanna's 94th birthday. We can't visit her at her retirement village and as our extended family is over 50 people and she only has a tablet for zoom we can't even do a whole family zoom celebration. My uncle is putting together video messages from everyone and my dad, his brothers and wives will zoom her. At least I can still ring her on the day or the weekend. Talking to somebody that age puts things into perspective as she lived through the depression and WW2 and spent many years in Ethiopia as a missionary. She even attended the opening of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, though mainly remembers leaving early because her sister through a tantrum over something small - toddlers haven't changed!
Christchurch Cathedral used to hold Te Hakiri Tapu services on Thursdays. I remember the first one. The celebrant, who came from Tikanga Maori* was a lovely man. At the end of the service he apologised for any mistakes he may have made as he had forgotten his glasses, He was very kind to have overlooked what must have been obvious to him - that only one of us, John Bluck, the Dean at the time, had ever taken part in the service before. I came to lve the way the words flowed when chanted.
* For any one who isn't familiar The Anglican Church in NZ is divided into 3 Tikanga (houses or ways of doing things Maori, Pakeha and Pasifika. That's all I remember about the structure from my time of worshipping there - Zappa can correct me or elaborate.
I took a mask when I went out. At the New World supermarket very few people were wearing them so I didn't bother. They are much my preferred supermarket but Coundown (owned by Australian Woolworth's) is nearer). NW have more staff on the ground, so there's always someone nearby to direct you or reach for something from a high shelf if I can't hook it down with my cane, or sometimes ask a tall fellow-customer if none rushes to offer. Countdown when under lockdown have a queue line outside with. marks at 2m intervals and someone supervising, who also lets tottering oldies in without queueing. NW has their aisles marked with large taped arrows at each end, and someone on the door to direct 'traffic' — but once inside I spotted at least one woman going 'up' a 'down' aisle; there was a 'warden' at the door also giving seniors precedence but. no actual queue, and someone overseeing the hand and handle sanitising.
New World can spell 'trolleys' and label their express checkout for those 'with ten or fewer items', not ten or less — this makes an old English teacher's day. (I always wonder whether the ones who call their trolleys 'trundlers' do so because they're wary of getting the plural of trolley wrong).
Excuse my ignorance, but does everyone in NZ learn Maori language at school?
No, though there is a movement to introduce it at some level. Many Maori children and some pakeha go to Maori language immersion primary schools or preschools, and the language can be studied at all levels up to university degrees. There are also immersion classes available for anyone interested; a friend of mine (70+) has been involved for some time. It is not unusual in our church for worship leaders to introduce a prayer with a Maori invocation; there are a few popular hymns in Maori.
Many of us with no formal study would still recognise many Maori words and concepts.
[quote=In the UCA I understand that ministers are employed by their presbytery, which covers a region of the state. Salaries are paid by their congregation. I think Melbourne is two presbyteries. In NSW the councils of UCA congregations have the responsibility for enduring all activities comply with Covid safety plan requirements.
Here in NZ Presbyterian ministers are paid by their congregation but it is a stipend not a salary — perhaps someone can explain the difference?
[/quote]
The presbyterian theory is that ministers are not paid - they are called, as were the original disciples, to do the Lord's work. However, in order to avoid the necessity of them taking paid work to allow them to feed and house their families, the congregation that calls them agrees to give them a stipend. In Canada, the Canada Revenue Agency considers that to be a salary, and so does everyone else.
[quote=In the UCA I understand that ministers are employed by their presbytery, which covers a region of the state. Salaries are paid by their congregation. I think Melbourne is two presbyteries. In NSW the councils of UCA congregations have the responsibility for enduring all activities comply with Covid safety plan requirements.
Here in NZ Presbyterian ministers are paid by their congregation but it is a stipend not a salary — perhaps someone can explain the difference?
The presbyterian theory is that ministers are not paid - they are called, as were the original disciples, to do the Lord's work. However, in order to avoid the necessity of them taking paid work to allow them to feed and house their families, the congregation that calls them agrees to give them a stipend. In Canada, the Canada Revenue Agency considers that to be a salary, and so does everyone else.
[/quote]
I don't know if there is a technical term like "stipend" for the payment of UCA ministers. I used "salary" in a generic sense.
I took a spur of the moment decision to drive down to Wellington and take a night tour of the Zealandia ecosanctuary last night. It was rather wonderful and a great evening.
Heard many kiwis, and saw one -- well the bum of one at least. Heard the call of many ruru (moreporks), unfortunately 2 close by could not be spotted. An amazing dusk chorus. And the two takahē. And I learnt a great deal.
Damn virus - I was looking forward to voting on the anniversary of women's suffrage in NZ - mainly for symbolic reasons. It's been postponed until October 17th. I hope the outbreak in Auckland is over well before then and no other places have community spread.
Well October 17th is St Luke's Eve, and Luke was arguably the gospel writer most given to the advocacy of women's empowerment. .. so with a bit of mental gymnastics ...
Sorry the dreaded and insidious virus is back in NZ. The most frustrating thing about it is nobody seems to learn the lessons from other places - when cases are low to non-existent, everyone relaxes and forgets people coming back from overseas could still spread the virus. So guards are lax, testing is not done as much as it should, people that should be quarantining look for loop holes, don't stay home or actually escape from quarantine hotels.
There has been lots of anger here about the use of badly trained, inept guards at Melbourne quarantine hotels, though it seems most of the cases may be linked to one returning family, so it could just be a small number of guards who spread it into the community. People are angry at Daniel Andrews, the Victorian State Premier for not employing the Army as guards originally as apparently all other states were. But now it comes out that a quarantine hotel guard in Sydney caught the virus and then worked at a market and a number of other places - he was a private guard contracted by a security company. So NSW has been doing exactly the same as Victoria even after our awful outbreak and all the criticism about subcontracted guards working across multiple sites. It hurts my head.
Comments
Sadly Mr Curly I'm rarely in your neck of the woods so we've never IRLed (though I am - was - often in other parts of your State). I was at a shipmeet in Byron Bay, but missed the one in Orange/Bathurst. That, centred on Jug's holifying gig, was a few, maybe several weeks earlier, just as I joined the Ship. I have enjoyed meets in Melbourne, Auckland, Wellington, Hamilton and Chicago though, as well as countless Ship inspired gatherings around the place, especially Brisbane (and Wankydilla, eh, @Climacus?).
Oh and @Mili - as long as you don't murder axes or mind dogs, we do have some spare room if you need it in the Deep South (ie. souther than 45).
I'm pretty much putting the future out of mind and getting by day by day as things are a bit grim in Melbourne right now. On the plus side Covid is not totally out of control, but on the depressing side we got where we are now through mistakes, carelessness and about 25 percent of people with the virus continuing to go out when they should have been at home. I really though that figure would be more like 1 to 5 percent and it is depressing to know so many either don't care about others or don't believe the virus is serious. At least in my area we have low numbers and cases are decreasing by 2 or 3 a day. My suburb only has 3 cases so at least I feel pretty safe going to the local supermarket at a quiet time once a fortnight. I think that is why I assumed most people were doing the right thing, because I live in a low crime area where a lot of people can work from home and are well educated and socially responsible.
@Mr Curly
In 2009/10 I was visiting Sydney for a week every month while my sister-in-law was dying from liver cancer, and usually met Lothlorien for a coffee somewhere in the inner west. She introduced me to a friend who was chaplain to the St John's Ambulance, and who was part of the encouragement for me to take chaplaincy studies.
My council will be meeting at the end of the month to decide whether we will start church in a building mid September.
That is very good to hear. It is raining on the coast at Newcastle, had 5 mls over night with heavy rain over the last hour or so
It wasn't so gentle at my daughter's place on the coast at Port Kembla. 106mm overnight Friday and woke to the swimming pool overflowing and water lapping the back door on Saturday morning.
And, yes, Wankydilla was indeed fun. As was the minibus trip out to see Jugular where I was picked up on the M4 service station. What days... And what wonderful people.
How could you think such a thing?
Kiwi's ... you can flatten this curve too!
Auckland is in level 3 lockdown until midnight Friday, and the rest of us at Alert level 2. I can't remember quite what that means, but wish I had stayed in the Supermarket longer this afternoon and bought milk.
I am so glad I didn't go to Wellington for my brother's birthday as I imagine care homes are battening down.
They did (need "not worthy" emoji here) ... from what I've gleaned from the boss it was about thirty seconds from flash point in the nave below, and while fully involved in the roof not yet at structural level. OTOH the scaffolding that has been up for months was only removed last Thursday
Fortunately I don't go there often now - even pulling back from the weekly Te Hakiri Tapu liturgy now the new dean is up and running
I’ve been using the “does it get better with antihistamines?” test* since the wattle started to bloom.
*Not medical advice. Consult your doctor.
In the UCA I understand that ministers are employed by their presbytery, which covers a region of the state. Salaries are paid by their congregation. I think Melbourne is two presbyteries. In NSW the councils of UCA congregations have the responsibility for enduring all activities comply with Covid safety plan requirements.
Here in NZ Presbyterian ministers are paid by their congregation but it is a stipend not a salary — perhaps someone can explain the difference?
We have no United church as such but plenty of 'union' or 'uniting' congregations, typically but not necessarily Presy/Metho. They owe allegiance to both central bodies ie they have to be represented at Presy General Assembly and Metho Annual Conference; ministers are supposed to be appointed alternately by Presy and Metho, but may come from anywhere — I don't know where Sue at our neighbouring parish came from but the previous minister was originally Baptist and the one before him Sally Army (two elders were licensed by Presbytery to preside at Communion) . Both great ministers and both still members of the congregation.
Best wishes for all negotiating streaming or conducting services.
Like Huia I was startled by the emergency warning as my phone's camera light flashed and the phone made important noises. Hopefully the (valid and allowed) travel they made does not cause outbreaks elsewhere.
I feel like I'm really living the Covid 19 experience after a run in with an anti-masker yesterday. I was walking home from work and noticed a 30ish, healthy looking man with no mask standing at a bus stop. His friend or partner seemed to be sleeping or otherwise semi-conscious on the bus stop bench, so possibly they were drug affected. I decided to give them a wide berth and the man started yelling and ranting at me, asking if and why I was afraid to die and what did I think I would die from? At least he kept his distance and didn't spit or try to pull my mask off, but not something I would have expected in my local area, especially as I never pass more than 15 people during my walk because of the lock down rules. I was a bit shaken and hope he didn't harass too many others or get in a fight with a bus driver who wouldn't have allowed him on the bus. But it's unlikely I will see him again as I have never seen him before.
Tomorrow is my Nanna's 94th birthday. We can't visit her at her retirement village and as our extended family is over 50 people and she only has a tablet for zoom we can't even do a whole family zoom celebration. My uncle is putting together video messages from everyone and my dad, his brothers and wives will zoom her. At least I can still ring her on the day or the weekend. Talking to somebody that age puts things into perspective as she lived through the depression and WW2 and spent many years in Ethiopia as a missionary. She even attended the opening of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, though mainly remembers leaving early because her sister through a tantrum over something small - toddlers haven't changed!
So sorry for the abuse you suffered... Some people really have no idea -- and to think shouting and abusing someone is appropriate defies belief.
Nationwide announcement on Alert levels at 5.30pm. Fingers and toes crossed.
Yup - aroha mai (sorry!)
* For any one who isn't familiar The Anglican Church in NZ is divided into 3 Tikanga (houses or ways of doing things Maori, Pakeha and Pasifika. That's all I remember about the structure from my time of worshipping there - Zappa can correct me or elaborate.
New World can spell 'trolleys' and label their express checkout for those 'with ten or fewer items', not ten or less — this makes an old English teacher's day. (I always wonder whether the ones who call their trolleys 'trundlers' do so because they're wary of getting the plural of trolley wrong).
No, though there is a movement to introduce it at some level. Many Maori children and some pakeha go to Maori language immersion primary schools or preschools, and the language can be studied at all levels up to university degrees. There are also immersion classes available for anyone interested; a friend of mine (70+) has been involved for some time. It is not unusual in our church for worship leaders to introduce a prayer with a Maori invocation; there are a few popular hymns in Maori.
Many of us with no formal study would still recognise many Maori words and concepts.
Here in NZ Presbyterian ministers are paid by their congregation but it is a stipend not a salary — perhaps someone can explain the difference?
[/quote]
The presbyterian theory is that ministers are not paid - they are called, as were the original disciples, to do the Lord's work. However, in order to avoid the necessity of them taking paid work to allow them to feed and house their families, the congregation that calls them agrees to give them a stipend. In Canada, the Canada Revenue Agency considers that to be a salary, and so does everyone else.
The presbyterian theory is that ministers are not paid - they are called, as were the original disciples, to do the Lord's work. However, in order to avoid the necessity of them taking paid work to allow them to feed and house their families, the congregation that calls them agrees to give them a stipend. In Canada, the Canada Revenue Agency considers that to be a salary, and so does everyone else.
[/quote]
I don't know if there is a technical term like "stipend" for the payment of UCA ministers. I used "salary" in a generic sense.
Heard many kiwis, and saw one -- well the bum of one at least. Heard the call of many ruru (moreporks), unfortunately 2 close by could not be spotted. An amazing dusk chorus. And the two takahē. And I learnt a great deal.
I have masks now, I am considering a career as a bank robber.
Coming back from the shops I managed social distancing on the bus without a problem - I was the sole passenger and my chauffer was masked.
There was a tree by the river smothered in blossoms - spring is coming.
There has been lots of anger here about the use of badly trained, inept guards at Melbourne quarantine hotels, though it seems most of the cases may be linked to one returning family, so it could just be a small number of guards who spread it into the community. People are angry at Daniel Andrews, the Victorian State Premier for not employing the Army as guards originally as apparently all other states were. But now it comes out that a quarantine hotel guard in Sydney caught the virus and then worked at a market and a number of other places - he was a private guard contracted by a security company. So NSW has been doing exactly the same as Victoria even after our awful outbreak and all the criticism about subcontracted guards working across multiple sites. It hurts my head.