Well, they were double-ended (but I know what you mean, really!)
BTW having travelled in Bulleid coaches on the Bluebell Railway, I'd agree that they were comfy. Unlike the Hutachi Super Express stock with which we are inflicted blessed on today's GWR: ironing-board seats, skittering ride.
I'm with you on that - the first time I flopped down in one, having boarded in a hurry, I thought I'd broken my coccyx!
Mind you, the fabled non-stop "Cornish Riviera Limited" on Another Railway was also rather diminished by the time it got to Plymouth, having slipped portions at Westbury (for Weymouth), at Taunton (for Minehead) and at Exeter (for Torbay and Kingsbridge). Even with a "King" at the front, that would have helped on the South Devon banks.
Didn't the engines change at Exeter though? IIRC the London engine worked through to Torbay on those coaches and something new took the Plymouth section. Hence Kings cropping up at Kingswear a lot more commonly than you might have thought.
Depends on the period and season, I think. I've got (in a book) a GWR 1920s timetable which shows the Riviera running non-stop to Plymouth. I don't think it even took a banker at Newton Abbot - probably didn't need to!
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Typical Southern sleight of hand - that two coach train coming into Padstow behind a BoB is (still) the Atlantic Coast Express...
Curses! Rumbled...
Mind you, I think the photo I've seen, which IIRC was taken in the same part of the Withered Arm, was actually a local stopping service, rather than the ACE. Even the ACE probably wasn't hauled tender-first, although it did indeed dwindle to just a couple of nice comfy Bulleid coaches by the time it got that far west...
It's been a while since I looked into this but from memory (to quote the late lamented Jethro) what happened was...
Facilities for servicing at Padstow were non-existent for loco servicing, so the arrived Atlantic Coast Express loco would have to beetle off somewhere else, somewhere with a turntable.
In the meantime they did a couple of booked local turns in Padstow and environs to get use out of the loco (and avoiding miles of light engine running), before turning it, and it working one last service back to Padstow tender first, which it then ran round, and when it set off again that was the Up Atlantic Coast Express - having been a local service on the way in.
That would certainly tie in with the photo I mentioned, from (IIRC) an issue of Trains Illustrated sometime around 1960. I suppose it just goes to show how versatile the Light Pacifics were...
...as, indeed, were the Q1s. I've seen them on 70+ wagon freight trains passing Our House, and there's a photo of one hauling a two-coach push-pull set on the Allhallows branch. It would have had to run round at the terminus, but was perhaps on a positioning turn prior to working a train from the nearby Grain refinery, or the Berry Wiggins plant.
Compared to North America, Britain is abundantly spoiled in preserved steam locomotives.
Railways are a bit of an escape for me - I'm a member of 7 (I think) preserved railways, 2 new build loco projects, one railway historical study society (for the Great Central), volunteer on one line, one model railway club, and subscribe to both the Railway Magazine and the Railway Modeller. I've only got the two model railways (OO and OO9) and a Mamod. Did I mention my interest in traction engines? Essentially I see the late Rev Teddy Boston as a life to aim for.
Flipping heck. That's a lot to keep on top of If I had more time I'd like to volunteer on the East Lancs, but the Anson Engine Museum keeps me busy...
Here is an interesting story which starts with some railway info (including a VERY long lived colliery engine) before telling us about the first church to be lit by electricity in England. Well, this seemed like the place to post it!
Mind you, the fabled non-stop "Cornish Riviera Limited" on Another Railway was also rather diminished by the time it got to Plymouth, having slipped portions at Westbury (for Weymouth), at Taunton (for Minehead) and at Exeter (for Torbay and Kingsbridge). Even with a "King" at the front, that would have helped on the South Devon banks.
Slip coaches were notoriously difficult to work, and once the vacuum was lost (there were very large reservoirs to prevent this happening) the coach was stranded and had to be rescued. Felix Pole in his Book describes such an occurrence and felt obliged to write to all his fellow passengers to apologise. I bet the slip guard thought, 'It bloody would happen with the General Manager on board.'
The Ds and the very similar Es, designed by Robert Surtees and Harry Wainwright (and rebuilt by Richard Maunsell) were some of the most elegant locomotives ever to grace the rails of England!
Be very envious. I saw unrebuilt Ds in ordinary regular service. This was en route for our family holiday in 1956. They were still in use on the ex-SER service from Reading to Redhill via Guildford. They weren't of course in the stylish green and brass livery in the picture. They were in BR lined black.
It was on the same holiday that I saw my only Atlantic tender engine in regular service, an ex-LBSC H2, Trevose Head at Chichester on a train from Brighton to Southampton.
I never, of course, saw a River as built. Two strange things about that sad story are first that the LBSC already had three classes of express tank locomotives, some 4-6-2Ts that lasted in that form until the early 1950s and their Remembrance 4-6-4Ts which weren't rebuilt as tender engines until the LBSC main line was electrified and the work they were designed for no longer existed. Second, after nationalisation when the time came to scrap various worn out LBSC classes that were working steam routes south of the Thames, BR replaced them with 2-6-4Ts of LMS and BR standard designs which worked very successfully there.
Kings certainly worked regularly as far as Plymouth and down to Kingwear. Plymouth had a substantial allocation of them. They worked no further west as they weren't allowed across the Saltash Bridge.
Likewise, on the Southern, Merchant Navies and Arthurs weren't allowed west of Exeter. Nor were rebuilt West Countries, which meant that as some got rebuilt, some unrebuilt Battle of Britains were sent west. I think being banned west of Exeter may also have applied to S15s.
Thank you @Wesley J for the links to that German curiosity. I'd not heard of that before. That curious drive arrangement makes the whole thing even odder than Gresley's Hush-Hush or Fury, both of which I saw, but rebuilt as conventional engines.
You're very welcome, Enoch. I'm learning a lot on here myself!
Speaking of learning: I've found this site with hundreds of pics of steam and other engines, sorted into regions and eras. Might keep us busy for a bit...
He bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever. So there ).
Are those the ones that leaked so much oil under the cladding that they caught fire, and slipped under the slightest provocation?
Mind you, once they got going they were magnificent.
In his book, Master Builders of Steam, HAV Bulleid (who probably had more inside information than most people) noted that on one occasion a local fire brigade had to be called to extinguish a blazing Merchant Navy. It may be in that book where I read that grudging approval to build the MNs in wartime was given on account of their light weight and efficient use of materials, but I wonder if the exhaustion resulting from an argument with Bulleid may also have had something to do with it.
I never, of course, saw a River as built. Two strange things about that sad story are first that the LBSC already had three classes of express tank locomotives, some 4-6-2Ts that lasted in that form until the early 1950s and their Remembrance 4-6-4Ts which weren't rebuilt as tender engines until the LBSC main line was electrified and the work they were designed for no longer existed. Second, after nationalisation when the time came to scrap various worn out LBSC classes that were working steam routes south of the Thames, BR replaced them with 2-6-4Ts of LMS and BR standard designs which worked very successfully there.
There is an interesting coincidence in that, when the Metropolitan Railway bought some "kits" of Wollwich Moguls - mechanically identical to the Rivers although I think with a longer wheelbase - after the First World War, they not only assembled them as tank locomotives but also designated them as their K class.
There is an interesting coincidence in that, when the Metropolitan Railway bought some "kits" of Woolwich Moguls - mechanically identical to the Rivers although I think with a longer wheelbase - after the First World War, they not only assembled them as tank locomotives but also designated them as their K class.
I think, though, that the kits they bought were for the equivalent of Ns with smaller, mixed traffic, wheels, and that the Metropolitan used them almost entirely on freight on the line to Aylesbury. They never had condensing pipes.
The Great Southern bought some kits as well for use in Ireland on 5' 3" gauge. They were tender engines and unlike the Southern ones, they never acquired smoke deflectors.
Ah, I didn't think about the wheel diameters! I knew about the Irish ones.
The NCC in Northern Ireland also had Moguls, but these were LMS derived although both they, and the "Jeep" 2-6-4 tanks, were not identical to classes found in the parent company.
By the way, I feel that Maunsell's 2-6-0s are unfairly neglected in railway history, as they were the first (or almost the first, as I expect someone will correct me!) to bring together all the salient points of "modern" British locomotives such as tapered Belpaire boiler with superheat, two outside cylinders with Walschaert's valve gear etc. Yes, Churchward was the ground-breaker but he (and the GW) remained committed to inside valve gear.
Yes and no - I'm fortunate to be able to afford the £20-30 per year that each costs me to be a member of (and thankfully I've staggered it through the year so they're not all due at the same time. But within the 7 preserved railways, I only volunteer on one, and have another that I tend to donate to above the annual membership. The others are really just keeping in touch with lines that interest me. If pushed for cash I could reduce the list of ones I really care about very quickly. The model railways are largely already sunk cost.
At the model railway club last night, I was talking to a friend of mine who was LNER loco crew - so you can guess how old he is! He's just recently celebrated his 70th year of (adult) membership of the social club the model railway is in.
The Ds and the very similar Es, designed by Robert Surtees and Harry Wainwright (and rebuilt by Richard Maunsell) were some of the most elegant locomotives ever to grace the rails of England!
Be very envious. I saw unrebuilt Ds in ordinary regular service. This was en route for our family holiday in 1956. They were still in use on the ex-SER service from Reading to Redhill via Guildford. They weren't of course in the stylish green and brass livery in the picture. They were in BR lined black.
It was on the same holiday that I saw my only Atlantic tender engine in regular service, an ex-LBSC H2, Trevose Head at Chichester on a train from Brighton to Southampton.
I never, of course, saw a River as built. Two strange things about that sad story are first that the LBSC already had three classes of express tank locomotives, some 4-6-2Ts that lasted in that form until the early 1950s and their Remembrance 4-6-4Ts which weren't rebuilt as tender engines until the LBSC main line was electrified and the work they were designed for no longer existed. Second, after nationalisation when the time came to scrap various worn out LBSC classes that were working steam routes south of the Thames, BR replaced them with 2-6-4Ts of LMS and BR standard designs which worked very successfully there.
Kings certainly worked regularly as far as Plymouth and down to Kingwear. Plymouth had a substantial allocation of them. They worked no further west as they weren't allowed across the Saltash Bridge.
Likewise, on the Southern, Merchant Navies and Arthurs weren't allowed west of Exeter. Nor were rebuilt West Countries, which meant that as some got rebuilt, some unrebuilt Battle of Britains were sent west. I think being banned west of Exeter may also have applied to S15s.
Thank you @Wesley J for the links to that German curiosity. I'd not heard of that before. That curious drive arrangement makes the whole thing even odder than Gresley's Hush-Hush or Fury, both of which I saw, but rebuilt as conventional engines.
I am only slightly envious, as I, too, saw Ds in their last days on the South Eastern lines, along with the rebuilt versions...they often worked hop-pickers' specials on a certain Branch Line not far away from Our Town.
As you say, they ended up in BR lined black, but even that could look quite smart when clean.
It was a shame about the Rivers. When the Southern needed heavy goods tanks for cross-London transfer services, Mr Maunsell came up with the not dissimilar W class 2-6-4T. Just the job for the freight trains, but they were never allowed to haul passenger trains, not even specials in the last days of steam.
I believe that the Ws included some bits, possibly the bogies, from the rebuilt Rivers.
I don't know why the SECR used shingle ballast, as it doesn't "bind" like granite chippings. I presume that cost was the main reason (especially if they could grt it from nearby places such as Dungeness). And was it lighter than granite?
I believe that the Ws included some bits, possibly the bogies, from the rebuilt Rivers.
I don't know why the SECR used shingle ballast, as it doesn't "bind" like granite chippings. I presume that cost was the main reason (especially if they could grt it from nearby places such as Dungeness). And was it lighter than granite?
Yes - the Southern was quite good at kit-bashing...for the W class, they used left-over tanks, bogies, steps, and parts of the bunkers from the rebuilt Rivers. Waste not, want not.
I was wrong about them never appearing on passenger trains - D L Bradley records that they were often run in after overhaul at Ashford on local stopping services, and also that there was a hair-raising test run with one of the class on the Oxted line in May 1948. After that, the class was banned from all passenger trains, though they were often used on empty stock workings.
The South Eastern certainly used shingle ballast from Dungeness, which was cheap and easily obtained. I don't know if it's heavier than granite, though. It doesn't make such a good foundation as granite, that's for sure.
I was wrong about them never appearing on passenger trains - D L Bradley records that they were often run in after overhaul at Ashford on local stopping services, and also that there was a hair-raising test run with one of the class on the Oxted line in May 1948.
It would be interesting (or not!) to know if that was due high centre of gravity, poor balancing, surging water in the tanks, or poor suspension. Of course these issues don't really figure in slow freight haulage.
The LBSC Baltics were found to be unstable at speed and were successfully modified by blanking off the upper part of the side tanks and adding a well tank.
The W involved in the May 1948 test (31918) was found to be a bit rough-riding on previous test runs, but seriously scared the Inspector in charge on the footplate *as the engine pitched and tossed down the bank to Oxted at 70mph*. The signalman at Oxted station is said to have positioned himself ready for a quick getaway, in case the lurching engine made for his box...
Oddly enough, bunker-first running on the way back to town was reported to be impeccable, though they kept the speed down a bit.
The high centre of gravity, and the water surging in the tanks, were probably the principal reasons for the poor running. Mr Maunsell was a first-class designer, so I should think the suspension and balancing were fine.
After the Sevenoaks disaster of 1927, where shaky track was a contributory cause, the Southern made great improvements to its permanent way.
After the Sevenoaks disaster of 1927, where shaky track was a contributory cause, the Southern made great improvements to its permanent way.
Well, to the rest of its permanent way - the hilariously over-engineered Lynton and Barnstaple was a gem from the start. My only real area of knowledge re the Southern (aside from random facts about the Withered Arm) - I bleed L&B.
The W involved in the May 1948 test (31918) was found to be a bit rough-riding on previous test runs, but seriously scared the Inspector in charge on the footplate *as the engine pitched and tossed down the bank to Oxted at 70mph*..
One of the few times I've been scared on a train was when travelling from Norwich to London in the late 80s. The inbound service had broken down at Ipswich, so Norwich laid on a connecting DMU (first generation) to take us that far. Once we'd crossed the Trowse, the driver simply "kept his foot down". Maximum speed 70mph? I'm sure it was a lot faster, and the riding was atrocious.
Thinking of Southern track, the Hither Green accident of ?1968 was caused by a broken rail, caused by inserting a small length of rail between a stretch of CWR and a crossing, and then not properly maintaining it. The consequent "pumping" action, combined with constant pounding of the joint from unsprung EMU/DEMU motors, caused the break. Mind you, BR was on a learning curve with CWR and there were other accidents, both fractures at poorly-welded joints and buckling through unresolved expansion stresses.
The Midland Pullman ran every weekday, up to London in the morning and down to Manchester in the evening. To fill in between these turns, there was an afternoon return trip from St Pancras to Nottingham described by railway staff as "The most luxurious ECS (empty coaching stock) in the world."
I remember seeing the Midland Pullman as a child - it seemed a futuristic vision compared to 9Fs on coal trains and green diesels hauling bland BR maroon coaches. I understand though that the riding of the sets left something to be desired - shades of the "Brighton Belle"!
I believe that the Midland Pullman came off when the new West Coast electric service started. What was also notable on the Midland line is that our expresses immediately shrank, often loading to only 6 carriages.
I remember seeing the Midland Pullman as a child - it seemed a futuristic vision compared to 9Fs on coal trains and green diesels hauling bland BR maroon coaches. I understand though that the riding of the sets left something to be desired - shades of the "Brighton Belle"!
I believe that the Midland Pullman came off when the new West Coast electric service started. What was also notable on the Midland line is that our expresses immediately shrank, often loading to only 6 carriages.
You mean electric traction with 6 coached? Which then were pretty full? Or did they run more of them?
No, the Midland mainline was the "poor relation" and still very much in the steam age, albeit with diesels. The Manchester service via Bakewell had been enhanced while the WCML electrification took place but now it was cut back. Indeed I'm not sure if through trains to Manchrester still operated (and the route beyond Matlock was closed anyway in about 1968). Our locos were "Peaks" which we felt were overshadowed by EE Type 4s and "Deltics" running out of King's Cross. Euston's electrics strangely didn't excite us.
The much-vaunted Midland Pullman sets are indeed recorded as being rather rough on the passengers! That must have been something of a disappointment, given the trains' otherwise clean and attractive appearance.
The Brighton Belle sets (5BEL) were past their sell-by date when I took my one and only trip on the train, shortly before they were withdrawn, and IIRC the riding was *ahem* lively...
Indeed I'm not sure if through trains to Manchrester still operated (and the route beyond Matlock was closed anyway in about 1968).
Services from Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras continued for some time, operting via Chesterfield. In the early 1970s, when I was using this service to commute from Manchester to New Mills they ran four times a day. This was alter reduced to twice a day. The service was the further degraded by operating as a stoppinig train after Leicester (so that it was much quicker to change at Leicester for a fast train to London).
The Brighton Belle sets (5BEL) were past their sell-by date when I took my one and only trip on the train, shortly before they were withdrawn, and IIRC the riding was *ahem* lively...
I too took such a ride, and was surprised to be charged for my tea and biscuits as I thought they'd be included in the Pullman supplement! I don't remember much about the journey.
The Brighton Belle sets (5BEL) were past their sell-by date when I took my one and only trip on the train, shortly before they were withdrawn, and IIRC the riding was *ahem* lively...
I too took such a ride, and was surprised to be charged for my tea and biscuits as I thought they'd be included in the Pullman supplement! I don't remember much about the journey.
I don't recall taking tea on the trip I made - I wonder if by then (only a few weeks before the 5BELs were withdrawn) it was no longer available?
Some of the pre-WW2 EMUs were lively, but the 2BILs were IME very comfy to ride in - they were still working in and out of Waterloo in about 1969. The 4CORs (aka Nelsons) on the Portsmouth line were renowned for lively riding, and one writer described a whole row of homegoing commuters as *swigging whisky in waltz-time* as the buffet car thrust its way through the points at Petersfield...
Even our new HS1 trains (the Javelins, or 6JAVs) to St Pancras were rough-riding at high speed, at least to start with, but AIUI there was a slight design tweak needed, which tweak solved the problem. The trains are austere, but surprisingly comfortable, with ample leg room for those of us with long knees.
The much-vaunted Midland Pullman sets are indeed recorded as being rather rough on the passengers! That must have been something of a disappointment, given the trains' otherwise clean and attractive appearance.
The Brighton Belle sets (5BEL) were past their sell-by date when I took my one and only trip on the train, shortly before they were withdrawn, and IIRC the riding was *ahem* lively...
That is an interesting piece of railway engineering history, and not particularly well-documented so far as I can see (from my own resources). It seems that the Swiss Schlieren bogie worked well under continental conditions - whatever that means - but without considerable alteration, was not suited to the additional weight of traction motors and shorter British vehicle bodies. One source discusses the rapid deterioration of the primary suspension dampers, which would certainly lead to lively riding. Another oddity that I have never understood, and may be related, was the curious absence of yaw damping on the bogies of UK passenger stock until relatively modern times. Perhaps the development of the excellent B4 bogie made it pointless to persevere with the Schlieren in the UK.
Regarding the Midland Pullman, I've found this short film, where a milkman drives the train. At least that's what I take his spotless white outfit to mean...!
The other thing I found interesting in that film is what I think might be the original sound from the cab, although speeded up. If that noise is real, then it must have been very loud indeed for the driver. I guess they hadn't put much thought into soundproofing the diesel yet. In another link on the web, which I can't find right now, it says that the engine noise in the leading coach wasn't exactly pleasant for the passengers either.
Finally, from here, the way that the motorised bogies are positioned seems intriguing too. In UIC classification and for the 6-car sets, it's 2′Bo′+Bo′2′+2′2′+2′2′+2′Bo′+Bo′2′ - meaning that the second bogie of the driving coach and the first bogie of the second coach, at each end of the train, have the electric motors. The later HSTs, by way of comparison, were/are more flexible with a Bo'Bo' Class 43 at each end, and no motorised bogies in any of the intermediate cars.
My guess about the bogies is that having motors at the outer ends of the power cars - under the engines - would have made the weight at those ends too great. However I'm surprised that it was permissible to take traction current from one car to the next!
Huh. Pullmans, indeed. Why, they were the Wrong Colour to start with...though they might have looked rather smart in umber & cream.
To me, Pullman meant The Golden Arrow, with a gleaming Bulleid Pacific at the head, complete with flags and arrows! Sometimes, Stewarts Lane shed would send out one of their two Britannias, equally well-groomed.
I have a press photo (ordered specially for me, from the local paper, by My Old Dad) of the last steam-hauled Arrow passing Our Station just prior to electrification. The new electric locomotives - albeit bulled-up and embellished - just didn't have quite the same panache...
Until the Blue Pullmans, the Midland Region (ex LMS) didn't bother with Pullmans. They were a Southern and Eastern thing. One used to see them on visits to the East Coast Main Line. With their curtains and little table lights, they were stylish but in rather a dated way. By the fifties, the Eastern Region, or at least, in their express engines, wasn't as filthy as the LNER had been in the immediate post war period. Indeed, their engines by then were often cleaner by then than the Midland Region whose engines circulated under such complicated diagrams that they might only get back to their home shed about once a week. The Western, though, noticeably kept its engines a lot cleaner than the others, possibly because BR green was much the same colour as the GWR's green had been.
I only saw the "Arrow" once, in its last year of operation, by which time it was a shadow of its former self. The 1950s version must have looked magnificent.
Interestingly, a detective novel set in Brighton in the 1940s was spoiled by someone going to the station and seeing the blue-and-grey "Belle" there. Other novels have been spoiled by someone taking the Tube from Victoria to Leicester Square in 1967, changing trains at Green Park; and by people catching trams at the corner of Regent and Oxford Streets.
However ... the only Pullman I have ever travelled in was "Robin" on the "Master Cutler" in about 1964. Very nice, but one of the modern Metro-Cammell cars rather than a "real" Pullman car. Incidentally "Robin" still exists on the North York Moors Railway.
The "Midland Pullman" was an exciting sight to see, passing through our local station. And, whatever you may say, I loved the Nanking Blue and white!
I only saw the "Arrow" once, in its last year of operation, by which time it was a shadow of its former self. The 1950s version must have looked magnificent.
Interestingly, a detective novel set in Brighton in the 1940s was spoiled by someone going to the station and seeing the blue-and-grey "Belle" there. Other novels have been spoiled by someone taking the Tube from Victoria to Leicester Square in 1967, changing trains at Green Park; and by people catching trams at the corner of Regent and Oxford Streets.
However ... the only Pullman I have ever travelled in was "Robin" on the "Master Cutler" in about 1964. Very nice, but one of the modern Metro-Cammell cars rather than a "real" Pullman car. Incidentally "Robin" still exists on the North York Moors Railway.
The "Midland Pullman" was an exciting sight to see, passing through our local station. And, whatever you may say, I loved the Nanking Blue and white!
Wasn't the real Master Cutler either if we're being picky... It was the shadow of the Master Cutler that BR(LM) stole away from the GC's metals when they took over the GC!
@betjemaniac No - this was the "Cutler" which ran for a few years, as a proper Pullman service, between King's Cross and Sheffield, calling only at Retford. My godmother was most discomfited at having pick us up from Victoria rather than Midland! Later we did indeed travel on the non-Pullman Midland version.
At the other end of the Pullman scale, there is the happy story of one of the Highland Railway's two little Pullmans, Balmoral. It was recovered long after being built into a house on the south coast, and is being restored by Stephen Middleton at Stately Trains. https://www.statelytrains.com/balmoral.html#demo/img/balmoral/tw929.jpg.
Not bad for 140 years old!
@betjemaniac No - this was the "Cutler" which ran for a few years, as a proper Pullman service, between King's Cross and Sheffield, calling only at Retford. My godmother was most discomfited at having pick us up from Victoria rather than Midland! Later we did indeed travel on the non-Pullman Midland version.
Yes but my point was that the real 'Master Cutler', before it was stolen as part of general efforts to shaft the Great Central Main Line, was Marylebone to Sheffield Victoria calling at Leicester Central and Nottingham Victoria. That ran 1947-58.
BR(LM) had no intention of competing with their own Sheffield services, so BR(E) ran it out of Kings Cross. Although I see what you're getting at now - sloppy writing on my part. BR(LM) pinched the GC rather than the Master Cutler (which was re-routed via Retford as you note), but they did end up with the Master Cutler in the end.
It does seem bonkers that a nationalised system should so compete within itself rather than co-ordinate its services for the Greater Good; and very wrong that Regions which "took over" services which hadn't historically been "theirs" then ran them down (not just the GC but also, for example, the Southern's "withered arm").
Comments
I'm with you on that - the first time I flopped down in one, having boarded in a hurry, I thought I'd broken my coccyx!
That would certainly tie in with the photo I mentioned, from (IIRC) an issue of Trains Illustrated sometime around 1960. I suppose it just goes to show how versatile the Light Pacifics were...
...as, indeed, were the Q1s. I've seen them on 70+ wagon freight trains passing Our House, and there's a photo of one hauling a two-coach push-pull set on the Allhallows branch. It would have had to run round at the terminus, but was perhaps on a positioning turn prior to working a train from the nearby Grain refinery, or the Berry Wiggins plant.
Railways are a bit of an escape for me - I'm a member of 7 (I think) preserved railways, 2 new build loco projects, one railway historical study society (for the Great Central), volunteer on one line, one model railway club, and subscribe to both the Railway Magazine and the Railway Modeller. I've only got the two model railways (OO and OO9) and a Mamod. Did I mention my interest in traction engines? Essentially I see the late Rev Teddy Boston as a life to aim for.
Mrs Betjemaniac remains bemused....
Here is an interesting story which starts with some railway info (including a VERY long lived colliery engine) before telling us about the first church to be lit by electricity in England. Well, this seemed like the place to post it!
Slip coaches were notoriously difficult to work, and once the vacuum was lost (there were very large reservoirs to prevent this happening) the coach was stranded and had to be rescued. Felix Pole in his Book describes such an occurrence and felt obliged to write to all his fellow passengers to apologise. I bet the slip guard thought, 'It bloody would happen with the General Manager on board.'
It was on the same holiday that I saw my only Atlantic tender engine in regular service, an ex-LBSC H2, Trevose Head at Chichester on a train from Brighton to Southampton.
I never, of course, saw a River as built. Two strange things about that sad story are first that the LBSC already had three classes of express tank locomotives, some 4-6-2Ts that lasted in that form until the early 1950s and their Remembrance 4-6-4Ts which weren't rebuilt as tender engines until the LBSC main line was electrified and the work they were designed for no longer existed. Second, after nationalisation when the time came to scrap various worn out LBSC classes that were working steam routes south of the Thames, BR replaced them with 2-6-4Ts of LMS and BR standard designs which worked very successfully there.
Kings certainly worked regularly as far as Plymouth and down to Kingwear. Plymouth had a substantial allocation of them. They worked no further west as they weren't allowed across the Saltash Bridge.
Likewise, on the Southern, Merchant Navies and Arthurs weren't allowed west of Exeter. Nor were rebuilt West Countries, which meant that as some got rebuilt, some unrebuilt Battle of Britains were sent west. I think being banned west of Exeter may also have applied to S15s.
Thank you @Wesley J for the links to that German curiosity. I'd not heard of that before. That curious drive arrangement makes the whole thing even odder than Gresley's Hush-Hush or Fury, both of which I saw, but rebuilt as conventional engines.
Speaking of learning: I've found this site with hundreds of pics of steam and other engines, sorted into regions and eras. Might keep us busy for a bit...
In his book, Master Builders of Steam, HAV Bulleid (who probably had more inside information than most people) noted that on one occasion a local fire brigade had to be called to extinguish a blazing Merchant Navy. It may be in that book where I read that grudging approval to build the MNs in wartime was given on account of their light weight and efficient use of materials, but I wonder if the exhaustion resulting from an argument with Bulleid may also have had something to do with it.
SECR "River": https://tinyurl.com/2p98tr56
Metropolitan K class: https://tinyurl.com/58hy5j3v
The Great Southern bought some kits as well for use in Ireland on 5' 3" gauge. They were tender engines and unlike the Southern ones, they never acquired smoke deflectors.
The NCC in Northern Ireland also had Moguls, but these were LMS derived although both they, and the "Jeep" 2-6-4 tanks, were not identical to classes found in the parent company.
By the way, I feel that Maunsell's 2-6-0s are unfairly neglected in railway history, as they were the first (or almost the first, as I expect someone will correct me!) to bring together all the salient points of "modern" British locomotives such as tapered Belpaire boiler with superheat, two outside cylinders with Walschaert's valve gear etc. Yes, Churchward was the ground-breaker but he (and the GW) remained committed to inside valve gear.
Yes and no - I'm fortunate to be able to afford the £20-30 per year that each costs me to be a member of (and thankfully I've staggered it through the year so they're not all due at the same time. But within the 7 preserved railways, I only volunteer on one, and have another that I tend to donate to above the annual membership. The others are really just keeping in touch with lines that interest me. If pushed for cash I could reduce the list of ones I really care about very quickly. The model railways are largely already sunk cost.
At the model railway club last night, I was talking to a friend of mine who was LNER loco crew - so you can guess how old he is! He's just recently celebrated his 70th year of (adult) membership of the social club the model railway is in.
I am only slightly envious, as I, too, saw Ds in their last days on the South Eastern lines, along with the rebuilt versions...they often worked hop-pickers' specials on a certain Branch Line not far away from Our Town.
As you say, they ended up in BR lined black, but even that could look quite smart when clean.
It was a shame about the Rivers. When the Southern needed heavy goods tanks for cross-London transfer services, Mr Maunsell came up with the not dissimilar W class 2-6-4T. Just the job for the freight trains, but they were never allowed to haul passenger trains, not even specials in the last days of steam.
I don't know why the SECR used shingle ballast, as it doesn't "bind" like granite chippings. I presume that cost was the main reason (especially if they could grt it from nearby places such as Dungeness). And was it lighter than granite?
Yes - the Southern was quite good at kit-bashing...for the W class, they used left-over tanks, bogies, steps, and parts of the bunkers from the rebuilt Rivers. Waste not, want not.
I was wrong about them never appearing on passenger trains - D L Bradley records that they were often run in after overhaul at Ashford on local stopping services, and also that there was a hair-raising test run with one of the class on the Oxted line in May 1948. After that, the class was banned from all passenger trains, though they were often used on empty stock workings.
The South Eastern certainly used shingle ballast from Dungeness, which was cheap and easily obtained. I don't know if it's heavier than granite, though. It doesn't make such a good foundation as granite, that's for sure.
The LBSC Baltics were found to be unstable at speed and were successfully modified by blanking off the upper part of the side tanks and adding a well tank.
Oddly enough, bunker-first running on the way back to town was reported to be impeccable, though they kept the speed down a bit.
The high centre of gravity, and the water surging in the tanks, were probably the principal reasons for the poor running. Mr Maunsell was a first-class designer, so I should think the suspension and balancing were fine.
After the Sevenoaks disaster of 1927, where shaky track was a contributory cause, the Southern made great improvements to its permanent way.
Well, to the rest of its permanent way - the hilariously over-engineered Lynton and Barnstaple was a gem from the start. My only real area of knowledge re the Southern (aside from random facts about the Withered Arm) - I bleed L&B.
One of the few times I've been scared on a train was when travelling from Norwich to London in the late 80s. The inbound service had broken down at Ipswich, so Norwich laid on a connecting DMU (first generation) to take us that far. Once we'd crossed the Trowse, the driver simply "kept his foot down". Maximum speed 70mph? I'm sure it was a lot faster, and the riding was atrocious.
Thinking of Southern track, the Hither Green accident of ?1968 was caused by a broken rail, caused by inserting a small length of rail between a stretch of CWR and a crossing, and then not properly maintaining it. The consequent "pumping" action, combined with constant pounding of the joint from unsprung EMU/DEMU motors, caused the break. Mind you, BR was on a learning curve with CWR and there were other accidents, both fractures at poorly-welded joints and buckling through unresolved expansion stresses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hither_Green_rail_crash
A very nasty one - 49 deaths and 78 injuries.
Rather expensive though...!
A bit like the real thing I guess.
ETA from the above:
I believe that the Midland Pullman came off when the new West Coast electric service started. What was also notable on the Midland line is that our expresses immediately shrank, often loading to only 6 carriages.
You mean electric traction with 6 coached? Which then were pretty full? Or did they run more of them?
The Brighton Belle sets (5BEL) were past their sell-by date when I took my one and only trip on the train, shortly before they were withdrawn, and IIRC the riding was *ahem* lively...
Services from Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras continued for some time, operting via Chesterfield. In the early 1970s, when I was using this service to commute from Manchester to New Mills they ran four times a day. This was alter reduced to twice a day. The service was the further degraded by operating as a stoppinig train after Leicester (so that it was much quicker to change at Leicester for a fast train to London).
Indeed so, but it's not using the original running gear.
In believe that all the 1930s Southern express EMUs rode poorly, perhaps due to quite a lot of unsprung weight from the motors?
That's interesting to know about the Midland line Manchester trains.
I don't recall taking tea on the trip I made - I wonder if by then (only a few weeks before the 5BELs were withdrawn) it was no longer available?
Some of the pre-WW2 EMUs were lively, but the 2BILs were IME very comfy to ride in - they were still working in and out of Waterloo in about 1969. The 4CORs (aka Nelsons) on the Portsmouth line were renowned for lively riding, and one writer described a whole row of homegoing commuters as *swigging whisky in waltz-time* as the buffet car thrust its way through the points at Petersfield...
Even our new HS1 trains (the Javelins, or 6JAVs) to St Pancras were rough-riding at high speed, at least to start with, but AIUI there was a slight design tweak needed, which tweak solved the problem. The trains are austere, but surprisingly comfortable, with ample leg room for those of us with long knees.
Now that's a bizarre mental image.
That is an interesting piece of railway engineering history, and not particularly well-documented so far as I can see (from my own resources). It seems that the Swiss Schlieren bogie worked well under continental conditions - whatever that means - but without considerable alteration, was not suited to the additional weight of traction motors and shorter British vehicle bodies. One source discusses the rapid deterioration of the primary suspension dampers, which would certainly lead to lively riding. Another oddity that I have never understood, and may be related, was the curious absence of yaw damping on the bogies of UK passenger stock until relatively modern times. Perhaps the development of the excellent B4 bogie made it pointless to persevere with the Schlieren in the UK.
The other thing I found interesting in that film is what I think might be the original sound from the cab, although speeded up. If that noise is real, then it must have been very loud indeed for the driver. I guess they hadn't put much thought into soundproofing the diesel yet. In another link on the web, which I can't find right now, it says that the engine noise in the leading coach wasn't exactly pleasant for the passengers either.
Finally, from here, the way that the motorised bogies are positioned seems intriguing too. In UIC classification and for the 6-car sets, it's 2′Bo′+Bo′2′+2′2′+2′2′+2′Bo′+Bo′2′ - meaning that the second bogie of the driving coach and the first bogie of the second coach, at each end of the train, have the electric motors. The later HSTs, by way of comparison, were/are more flexible with a Bo'Bo' Class 43 at each end, and no motorised bogies in any of the intermediate cars.
I wonder why that might have been?
My guess about the bogies is that having motors at the outer ends of the power cars - under the engines - would have made the weight at those ends too great. However I'm surprised that it was permissible to take traction current from one car to the next!
To me, Pullman meant The Golden Arrow, with a gleaming Bulleid Pacific at the head, complete with flags and arrows! Sometimes, Stewarts Lane shed would send out one of their two Britannias, equally well-groomed.
I have a press photo (ordered specially for me, from the local paper, by My Old Dad) of the last steam-hauled Arrow passing Our Station just prior to electrification. The new electric locomotives - albeit bulled-up and embellished - just didn't have quite the same panache...
Interestingly, a detective novel set in Brighton in the 1940s was spoiled by someone going to the station and seeing the blue-and-grey "Belle" there. Other novels have been spoiled by someone taking the Tube from Victoria to Leicester Square in 1967, changing trains at Green Park; and by people catching trams at the corner of Regent and Oxford Streets.
However ... the only Pullman I have ever travelled in was "Robin" on the "Master Cutler" in about 1964. Very nice, but one of the modern Metro-Cammell cars rather than a "real" Pullman car. Incidentally "Robin" still exists on the North York Moors Railway.
The "Midland Pullman" was an exciting sight to see, passing through our local station. And, whatever you may say, I loved the Nanking Blue and white!
Wasn't the real Master Cutler either if we're being picky... It was the shadow of the Master Cutler that BR(LM) stole away from the GC's metals when they took over the GC!
Which is odd (and true), given IIRC the Midland had been gateway to the UK for Pullman - concept and company.
Not bad for 140 years old!
Yes but my point was that the real 'Master Cutler', before it was stolen as part of general efforts to shaft the Great Central Main Line, was Marylebone to Sheffield Victoria calling at Leicester Central and Nottingham Victoria. That ran 1947-58.
BR(LM) had no intention of competing with their own Sheffield services, so BR(E) ran it out of Kings Cross. Although I see what you're getting at now - sloppy writing on my part. BR(LM) pinched the GC rather than the Master Cutler (which was re-routed via Retford as you note), but they did end up with the Master Cutler in the end.