I would have said that "the rakish sports car of heavy freight haulage" was the GWR 28xx. The taper boiler gives it the illusion of lightness.
(And of course its big brother the 47xx had a good turn of speed and actually got used on summer Saturday express passenger trains in the late 1950s - well they did have 5'8" driving wheels).
North America is very Calvinist when it comes to Steam: the only proper color is Black.
Well said. If really necessary, a truly elegant locomotive will wear black comfortably and elegantly as long as it's clean, Gresley's P1 being a favourite example. However, most diesels need to wear a bit of make-up to be really attractive, but we're not talking about them here, are we?
The Penn GG1 came in so-called Tuscan Red at some point (at least some of them? - see here), which I personally prefer, and which I remember from model trains; I thought I'd heard of a green livery with stripes as well, in addition to the black one with the stripes. But perhaps I'm mistaken?
I've never been to the US, but I'm sure you're right. I'd forgotten about the red, which I like too. The GG1s looked awful in Amtrak livery though. There were also Pennsy liveries with one broad stripe rather than the narrow lines along the side.
The Penn GG1 came in so-called Tuscan Red at some point (at least some of them? - see here), which I personally prefer, and which I remember from model trains; I thought I'd heard of a green livery with stripes as well, in addition to the black one with the stripes. But perhaps I'm mistaken?
An exceptionally good looking locomotive, as well as being an all round exceptionally good one. Penn had very good steam locos, its K4 class being a major inspiration for the NSWGR 38 class in looks and engineering.
The Penn GG1 came in so-called Tuscan Red at some point (at least some of them? - see here), which I personally prefer, and which I remember from model trains; I thought I'd heard of a green livery with stripes as well, in addition to the black one with the stripes. But perhaps I'm mistaken?
Yes - If my hopeless memory has it right, I think I saw a green GG1 near New York in 1972. It was also a popular colour scheme for the Lionel 0 scale GG1 (a friend has a couple of them). I don't generally like Raymond Loewy's styling work, but the GG1 is (to my eye) a fine exception.
Anent the Pennsylvania K4, I am pretty sure I read that Gresley took a close look at them while designing the original A1. It was an influential locomotive.
I was going to say that, too, about Gresley and the K4. What's also interesting is that the PRR were still using them, sometimes double-headed, when other roads had gone onto Hudsons/Niagaras and the like. Of course they eventually went for the T1 Duplex locos and that's another story!
What's interesting is how livery affects beauty. For instance an SECR D Class is gorgeous, not so much so in unlined olive SR green. Equally a maroon streamlined Coronation is stunning, one in plain black downright horrible. True even of more modern locos such as the Deltics which looked good in their original green, much less so in Rail Blue.
Mind you, nothing could redeem the Metrovick Co-Bos!
Mind you, nothing could redeem the Metrovick Co-Bos!
you say that, but now imagine how much *worse* they'd have been in Rail Blue.
by the way, a company is now actually making the Leader in 4mm, and Rail Blue with yellow ends (fictional, obviously) is one of the options. Which means they would hypothetically have made it through about two generations of immolated firemen without anybody saying 'hang on...'
IME Bulleid peaked with the Tavern Car, and should have gone at that point on the basis he'd never top it.
Having seen SECR D class locos in the flesh, so to speak, they still looked beautiful in grubbyish BR lined black.
The original blue Deltic with its more elegant noses which ran on the WCML looked a lot better than the later ECML ones in dull green and with their larger, blunter and less shapelier noses.
And on black diesels, 10000, 10001, and 10201-3 were all in black in early BR days as were the Woodhead route electrics and the Western's two gas turbines, though I never saw either of the latter.
The original two tone green of the early 47s when they were D1500s was an attractive livery that worked IMHO.
Visually I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and say that of the ex LNER Pacifics, visually the Peppercorn A1s were streets ahead of any of the Gresley and Thompson ones, and both classes of Bulleid Pacifics looked much better after they were rebuilt, and were also better engines since they were less temperamental.
Yes, but notice how the boiler us black? Southern Pacific was very much the exception.
Speaking of Pennsy K4's, the PRE began an electrification of the North East Cortidir and the Main Line to Harrisburg. That freed up a large number of locomotives which is did not feel a need to replace with new builds after 1930. After 1940 they went a little bonkers.
A train which I very much like the appearance of (and which still looks futuristic) is this one (no, not the Amtrak trains nor the UP one, alhough those American freights are amazing!): https://tinyurl.com/4ex9uf5a.
I was also once lucky enough to see the Portuguese "Foguete", albeit in its later and less attractive guise of the "Sotavento": https://tinyurl.com/43w8ru47. That would have been in 1979.
Lovely! I am not generally keen on the looks of General Motors locomotives, but you'd have to be a serious Philistine not to admire the silver E5 and its train. The Amtrak GE however... I recall that when they first appeared a common comment was, "Is that the locomotive or the box it came in?" I visited the GE works in Erie while they were under construction and would have to say that they were very well built. My guide told me that Amtrak was a very demanding customer that cared about details.
The RoI used General Motors locos - there are a few here, some of which I remember seeing around and about in service. I'd like to visit that museum.
RoI is full of stuff like that - consciously 'not-UK' options for things as diverse as vacuum cleaners, radios and locomotives (for younger readers, if there are any, I'm referring to things dating from a time when a UK-industry-option was very much the obvious choice - up to early 1980s, let's say). That railway museum site gives some interesting background on a UK-RoI trade war which I was unaware of, in reference to their two 'newer' steam locos.
Well, the Class A and C locos they bought first were British, with unreliable and under-powered Crossley engines. CIE presumably compared that experience, and the difficulties which BR was having with many of its first-generation diesels, with the success of diesel traction in the US - and acted accordingly.
And it led me to a couple of other toy train restauration videos, too. Couldn't do this myself, but it's a fascinating skill to have.
Speaking of miniature trains - friends from our N gauge modelling club have found this: Chandwell, a "modern image N Gauge model railway layout set in the north of England in the 1990s."
The man makes all the buildings himself, and the tastefully dilapidated scenes of parts of his layout are quite spectacular (if you're into that sort of thing).
As an intro, this video by the 'Chandwell Tourist Board' is fun!
Are any of you into British Transport Films? I think there are quite a few on YouTube, or can be purchased from the British Film Institute, such as here.
I've just come across a London Transport film, called Seven New Stations, which is not uninteresting either.
Now, that's true about the "natural conversations". It looks a bit awkward, also on a classic like Night Mail, doesn't it. However, it rather appeals to me because at least they use real people, and not actors, which in itself adds to the overall credibility, IMO.
The London Transport films, some of them by British Transport Films, can be accessed by this link, as I've just discovered. A lot about buses, but some about rail transport too.
betjemaniac, what sort of training did you have to do for this? Is there a steam engine driving license which you have just obtained? And were you a fireman before? This is admirable.
betjemaniac, what sort of training did you have to do for this? Is there a steam engine driving license which you have just obtained? And were you a fireman before? This is admirable.
Nothing so impressive or admirable. This one was a paid for day very much under instruction throughout. Others on this site are far more qualified than I am.
Having said that, I am in the steam department of another railway, and am on the ladder there.
My main observations based on a few years' locomotive experience elsewhere before last Friday are that
standard locomotives must have seemed space age to their crews compared to what else was on the railways at the time - sitting down driving position, all controls within reach
I think I understand properly for the first time how the windcutters ended up travelling as fast as they did - the loco wasn't breaking a sweat on 7 coaches, and the GC mainline was remarkably flat and straight; there was also, compared to some locos I have crewed on, an unusual combination of a sense of both power and control - so the temptation to touch 90 MPH with a freight must have been pretty well irresistible on the long block sections of the southern end of the line
It seems to have been one of the unexpected surprises of locomotive design that the 9Fs turned out to be so stable at speed. It was only discovered when there was nothing else left on shed in the rush to find enough locos to cover all the excursions and duplicate passenger workings on a summer Saturday. After the news got out, crews were clamouring 'could we have one too', rather than the run down Crab approaching its next full repair that had their name against it on the board.
As far as I know, none of the 90 with a 9 episodes was clocked with an unfitted freight. Even four wheeled wagons with oil axle boxes weren't supposed to be taken over 50 in a fitted.
IIRC (somewhere at the back of my mind) Terry Essery reckoned they'd touched 80MPH on a 9F with a Birmingham-Carlisle fitted... My tame GC main line fireman has got some pretty hair raising stories of what they got up to in the final years, especially south of Woodford Halse* where there was something like 25 miles between signals!
*edited to add, that must have been south from Culworth Junction rather than Woodford I suppose
The 47xx 2-8-0 freight locos (the so-called "Night Owls") were often used on passenger trains on busy summer Saturdays. I think someone took a bit of a fright when they worked out the reciprocating speeds of a 9F's motion at 90 mph and put a bit of a damper on things.
A few years ago I visited the Mid-Suffolk Light Railway and enjoyed a footplate ride on a tiny 0-4-0 vertical-boilered Cockerill tram engine. It was quite a contrast for another guest on the footplate, a lady who had been firing a 9F on the North Norfolk Railway only the day before!
On a different point, it was rough-riding 4-wheeled wagons travelling at speed which derailed in front of an express train at Thirsk in 1967, causing a crash which killed 7, injured 45 and destroyed the DP2 locomotive. I understand that part of the reason for the acciden was the installation of continuously-welded track: this lets 'hunting' build up over a distance, where the joints in older track tend to disrupt it. But nobody knew that at the time.
As far as I know, none of the 90 with a 9 episodes was clocked with an unfitted freight. Even four wheeled wagons with oil axle boxes weren't supposed to be taken over 50 in a fitted.
IIRC wasn't that post the Thirsk accident @Baptist Trainfan mentions? Before then I think it was either 60 or 65MPH assuming the wheelbase was 9 foot or over.
Wikipedia says that the limit for the cement wagons was 60mph but had been reduced to 45mph by the time of the accident, following earlier derailments. This was the speed the train was going.
By 1966 freight wagon stability was becoming something of an issue and the 'bods' at Derby came up with the design of the High-Speed Freight Wagon which was stable at speeds of up to 100mph. I don't know if this had much impact on later wagons but it did I believe become the basis of the Pacer chassis and also fed into design considerations for the APT.
You will probably know that the last major steam workings were on the Northern Ireland motorway contract in the late 60s until 1970. The spoil wagons specially built for this work were notoriously unstable, especially when empty.
At least they use real people, and not actors, which in itself adds to the overall credibility, IMO.
Not true in all cases - the "businessman" in "Train Time" ( think), is an actor.
there's a very famous case, and the film title currently escapes me, where a director - who later went on to be famous - was making one of these films and had a toddler screaming in terror and fear in the middle of their station because they'd lost their parents. This was achieved by taking the toddler from its parents and telling it it was lost.
As the owner of a toddler, I cannot express how upset this makes me. But apparently it was ok because it made it look realistic.
It's John Schlesinger's 1961 BTF film "Terminus" about Waterloo station. I believe it won as Oscar although - like most BTF films - it was much more "staged" than it purports to be.
Wikipedia says that the limit for the cement wagons was 60mph but had been reduced to 45mph by the time of the accident, following earlier derailments. This was the speed the train was going.
By 1966 freight wagon stability was becoming something of an issue and the 'bods' at Derby came up with the design of the High-Speed Freight Wagon which was stable at speeds of up to 100mph. I don't know if this had much impact on later wagons but it did I believe become the basis of the Pacer chassis and also fed into design considerations for the APT.
Having ridden pacers a number of times as the cost of traversing the beautiful Morecambe-Leeds line I am utterly unsurprised to find they were based on a freight wagon (plus a Leyland bus body, of course).
Wikipedia says that the limit for the cement wagons was 60mph but had been reduced to 45mph by the time of the accident, following earlier derailments. This was the speed the train was going.
By 1966 freight wagon stability was becoming something of an issue and the 'bods' at Derby came up with the design of the High-Speed Freight Wagon which was stable at speeds of up to 100mph. I don't know if this had much impact on later wagons but it did I believe become the basis of the Pacer chassis and also fed into design considerations for the APT.
Having ridden pacers a number of times as the cost of traversing the beautiful Morecambe-Leeds line I am utterly unsurprised to find they were based on a freight wagon (plus a Leyland bus body, of course).
I was more surprised that a serious claim was being made that the Pacers *had* a chassis...
Wikipedia says that the limit for the cement wagons was 60mph but had been reduced to 45mph by the time of the accident, following earlier derailments. This was the speed the train was going.
By 1966 freight wagon stability was becoming something of an issue and the 'bods' at Derby came up with the design of the High-Speed Freight Wagon which was stable at speeds of up to 100mph. I don't know if this had much impact on later wagons but it did I believe become the basis of the Pacer chassis and also fed into design considerations for the APT.
Having ridden pacers a number of times as the cost of traversing the beautiful Morecambe-Leeds line I am utterly unsurprised to find they were based on a freight wagon (plus a Leyland bus body, of course).
I was more surprised that a serious claim was being made that the Pacers *had* a chassis...
I know they didn't have much by way of crash safety.
But Wiki says the 4-car Pacer wasn't carrying any passengers, so all the injured, except the Pacer driver, must have been on the electric HST. Would this be correct?
I'd be surprised if there hadn't been people killed had the Pacer had passengers!
Before this thread gets obliviated, perhaps there's time for a bit more...
What is your favourite train journey?
I have several, and they are all in the highlands. My first, and perhaps best, was in the early 60s (on a 1 day Railrover ticket) when the Blair Atholl locals from Perth were operated with the early Metro-Cam railcars and you could still sit at the front. From Stanley Junction to Blair on a misty summer morning seemed to my young self to be the most beautiful thing I had ever seen, looking down on the mist in the Tay valley around Dunkeld, and then getting the best possible view of Joseph Mitchell's iron bridges over the Tay. The climb to Druimuachdar summit is dramatic, especially with the engine sounds in a locomotive cab, and the Far North line through Sutherland and Caithness has a feeling of remoteness I've never felt elsewhere. The crossing of Rannoch Moor was even better. It goes on... What are your favourites?
Comments
(And of course its big brother the 47xx had a good turn of speed and actually got used on summer Saturday express passenger trains in the late 1950s - well they did have 5'8" driving wheels).
Well said. If really necessary, a truly elegant locomotive will wear black comfortably and elegantly as long as it's clean, Gresley's P1 being a favourite example. However, most diesels need to wear a bit of make-up to be really attractive, but we're not talking about them here, are we?
And of course in non-steam there's the exuberance of https://tinyurl.com/2p8ha747 and the subtle elegance of https://tinyurl.com/2p8k469p.
An exceptionally good looking locomotive, as well as being an all round exceptionally good one. Penn had very good steam locos, its K4 class being a major inspiration for the NSWGR 38 class in looks and engineering.
Yes - If my hopeless memory has it right, I think I saw a green GG1 near New York in 1972. It was also a popular colour scheme for the Lionel 0 scale GG1 (a friend has a couple of them). I don't generally like Raymond Loewy's styling work, but the GG1 is (to my eye) a fine exception.
Anent the Pennsylvania K4, I am pretty sure I read that Gresley took a close look at them while designing the original A1. It was an influential locomotive.
Or I could just tell you you're wrong.
Guess which one I'm going to do
What's interesting is how livery affects beauty. For instance an SECR D Class is gorgeous, not so much so in unlined olive SR green. Equally a maroon streamlined Coronation is stunning, one in plain black downright horrible. True even of more modern locos such as the Deltics which looked good in their original green, much less so in Rail Blue.
Mind you, nothing could redeem the Metrovick Co-Bos!
you say that, but now imagine how much *worse* they'd have been in Rail Blue.
by the way, a company is now actually making the Leader in 4mm, and Rail Blue with yellow ends (fictional, obviously) is one of the options. Which means they would hypothetically have made it through about two generations of immolated firemen without anybody saying 'hang on...'
IME Bulleid peaked with the Tavern Car, and should have gone at that point on the basis he'd never top it.
The original blue Deltic with its more elegant noses which ran on the WCML looked a lot better than the later ECML ones in dull green and with their larger, blunter and less shapelier noses.
And on black diesels, 10000, 10001, and 10201-3 were all in black in early BR days as were the Woodhead route electrics and the Western's two gas turbines, though I never saw either of the latter.
The original two tone green of the early 47s when they were D1500s was an attractive livery that worked IMHO.
Visually I'm going to stick my neck out a bit and say that of the ex LNER Pacifics, visually the Peppercorn A1s were streets ahead of any of the Gresley and Thompson ones, and both classes of Bulleid Pacifics looked much better after they were rebuilt, and were also better engines since they were less temperamental.
Yes, but notice how the boiler us black? Southern Pacific was very much the exception.
Speaking of Pennsy K4's, the PRE began an electrification of the North East Cortidir and the Main Line to Harrisburg. That freed up a large number of locomotives which is did not feel a need to replace with new builds after 1930. After 1940 they went a little bonkers.
https://tinyurl.com/4ex9uf5a.
I was also once lucky enough to see the Portuguese "Foguete", albeit in its later and less attractive guise of the "Sotavento": https://tinyurl.com/43w8ru47. That would have been in 1979.
RoI is full of stuff like that - consciously 'not-UK' options for things as diverse as vacuum cleaners, radios and locomotives (for younger readers, if there are any, I'm referring to things dating from a time when a UK-industry-option was very much the obvious choice - up to early 1980s, let's say). That railway museum site gives some interesting background on a UK-RoI trade war which I was unaware of, in reference to their two 'newer' steam locos.
That was really interesting!
And it led me to a couple of other toy train restauration videos, too. Couldn't do this myself, but it's a fascinating skill to have.
Speaking of miniature trains - friends from our N gauge modelling club have found this: Chandwell, a "modern image N Gauge model railway layout set in the north of England in the 1990s."
The man makes all the buildings himself, and the tastefully dilapidated scenes of parts of his layout are quite spectacular (if you're into that sort of thing).
As an intro, this video by the 'Chandwell Tourist Board' is fun!
I've just come across a London Transport film, called Seven New Stations, which is not uninteresting either.
The London Transport films, some of them by British Transport Films, can be accessed by this link, as I've just discovered. A lot about buses, but some about rail transport too.
(I see non-train nerds shaking their heads sadly.
*albeit with 7 coaches on the back rather than 80 wagons, not at 90mph, and slightly truncated from the glory days of Annesley to Woodford.
But also: Follow on the footplate of the Lord.
betjemaniac, what sort of training did you have to do for this? Is there a steam engine driving license which you have just obtained? And were you a fireman before? This is admirable.
Nothing so impressive or admirable. This one was a paid for day very much under instruction throughout. Others on this site are far more qualified than I am.
Having said that, I am in the steam department of another railway, and am on the ladder there.
My main observations based on a few years' locomotive experience elsewhere before last Friday are that
As far as I know, none of the 90 with a 9 episodes was clocked with an unfitted freight. Even four wheeled wagons with oil axle boxes weren't supposed to be taken over 50 in a fitted.
*edited to add, that must have been south from Culworth Junction rather than Woodford I suppose
A few years ago I visited the Mid-Suffolk Light Railway and enjoyed a footplate ride on a tiny 0-4-0 vertical-boilered Cockerill tram engine. It was quite a contrast for another guest on the footplate, a lady who had been firing a 9F on the North Norfolk Railway only the day before!
On a different point, it was rough-riding 4-wheeled wagons travelling at speed which derailed in front of an express train at Thirsk in 1967, causing a crash which killed 7, injured 45 and destroyed the DP2 locomotive. I understand that part of the reason for the acciden was the installation of continuously-welded track: this lets 'hunting' build up over a distance, where the joints in older track tend to disrupt it. But nobody knew that at the time.
IIRC wasn't that post the Thirsk accident @Baptist Trainfan mentions? Before then I think it was either 60 or 65MPH assuming the wheelbase was 9 foot or over.
By 1966 freight wagon stability was becoming something of an issue and the 'bods' at Derby came up with the design of the High-Speed Freight Wagon which was stable at speeds of up to 100mph. I don't know if this had much impact on later wagons but it did I believe become the basis of the Pacer chassis and also fed into design considerations for the APT.
You will probably know that the last major steam workings were on the Northern Ireland motorway contract in the late 60s until 1970. The spoil wagons specially built for this work were notoriously unstable, especially when empty.
there's a very famous case, and the film title currently escapes me, where a director - who later went on to be famous - was making one of these films and had a toddler screaming in terror and fear in the middle of their station because they'd lost their parents. This was achieved by taking the toddler from its parents and telling it it was lost.
As the owner of a toddler, I cannot express how upset this makes me. But apparently it was ok because it made it look realistic.
Having ridden pacers a number of times as the cost of traversing the beautiful Morecambe-Leeds line I am utterly unsurprised to find they were based on a freight wagon (plus a Leyland bus body, of course).
I was more surprised that a serious claim was being made that the Pacers *had* a chassis...
I know they didn't have much by way of crash safety.
But Wiki says the 4-car Pacer wasn't carrying any passengers, so all the injured, except the Pacer driver, must have been on the electric HST. Would this be correct?
I'd be surprised if there hadn't been people killed had the Pacer had passengers!
What is your favourite train journey?
I have several, and they are all in the highlands. My first, and perhaps best, was in the early 60s (on a 1 day Railrover ticket) when the Blair Atholl locals from Perth were operated with the early Metro-Cam railcars and you could still sit at the front. From Stanley Junction to Blair on a misty summer morning seemed to my young self to be the most beautiful thing I had ever seen, looking down on the mist in the Tay valley around Dunkeld, and then getting the best possible view of Joseph Mitchell's iron bridges over the Tay. The climb to Druimuachdar summit is dramatic, especially with the engine sounds in a locomotive cab, and the Far North line through Sutherland and Caithness has a feeling of remoteness I've never felt elsewhere. The crossing of Rannoch Moor was even better. It goes on... What are your favourites?