The trials and tribulations of an ex-president (including SCOTUS on the 14th amendment)

1363739414266

Comments

  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Could you possibly stop doom mongering for just a moment? You're triggering me, and for what? Your own amusement.

    You know I'm not. I'm not amused. This is the space for rather being right than happy. And it's both unintendedly horribly gratifying that being hyperreal can be that convincing, and horrifying. To me.

    I know what being triggered is like and wouldn't wish it on anybody.

    The artistic term is relevant, because that's what this is. PTSD art therapy. We all have PTSD from the C20th. No, really. And Trump is triggering that. He's an unstoppable evil from a China Tom Miéville story, no matter what is done. The only hope is a left-field 'happy' ending.

    It's a nice too sunny Leicester day here and we're going to Brum to see Yes! For the missus' 65th, one of her faves. I'm trying to persuade her to see Peter Gabriel, one of mine.

    Hopefully a parallel world webbing psychotic spider, who will let you live for an ode, will save us at the last moment.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    This is not art therapy, it is a discussion forum. Per our first commandment “Lively, intelligent discussion is what we’re about.”

    If you want to rant about the malevolent indifference of the universe, do it in Hell. If you want to post walls of prose poetry rehearsing your personal preoccupations, please get a blog and then you can always invite those interested to read it.

    Doublethink, Admin
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Ma'am.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I am wondering who will represent Trump at the Miami arraignment. By custom he has to have a local attorney at law representing the accused at a local court. So far, no attorney in Miami, wants to take on the case. If he cannot retain a lawyer on his own, would the court have to appoint one?

    BTW, the total amount of years Trump may face is about 100 years.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Apparently Aileen Cannon will not be handling Trump's arraignment and bond hearing. That will be in the hands of Magistrate Judge Jonathan Goodman.
    A magistrate judge will be presiding over the momentous Miami federal court hearing on Tuesday afternoon when former President Donald Trump makes his first appearance on charges of keeping classified documents at his Palm Beach estate and obstructing government efforts to reclaim them.

    Magistrate Judge Jonathan Goodman — not U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon, who was randomly assigned Trump’s case — will be handling the former president’s arraignment and bond matters.

    Cannon, who had been widely reported to be handling those duties, will still remain on the historic case as the lead judge.

    And because Cannon is still, for the moment, the trial judge, here's an article summarizing some of the ways she could still wreck the prosecution from the bench.
    [ Special counsel Jack ] Smith, for his part, has the option of requesting a different judge; 11th Circuit precedent allows reassignment when the presiding judge appears unable to put “previous views and findings aside.” (This is a nice way of saying that they’re in the tank for the defendant.) Trump would surely fight such a request, and it’s impossible to say where the 11th Circuit would come down.

    Imagine, though, that Cannon does preside over this case. She has infinite tools at her disposal to thwart the prosecution at nearly every turn. Big swings, like tossing out the whole case — a very real possibility in her courtroom of chaos — can be appealed and overturned. But at every step, there are opportunities for sabotage. Cannon can try to rig voir dire to help the defense stack the jury with Trump supporters. She can exclude evidence and testimony that’s especially damning to Trump. She can disqualify witnesses who are favorable to the prosecution. She can sustain the defense’s frivolous objections and overrule the prosecution’s meritorious ones. She can direct a verdict of acquittal to render the jury superfluous. She can declare a mistrial prematurely for any number of reasons, including lengthy juror deliberations, and stretch out various deadlines to run out the clock. Many of these procedural moves could not be appealed until the proceedings have drawn to a close; appeals courts do not referee every little dispute in a jury trial as they happen. Cannon will be in control.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I will bet Smith will move for reassignment.
  • I think he may not.

    He must have known that choosing the Miami venue (instead of DC) risked winding up with this judge. I suspect that he's calculated all the risks, up to losing this trial because of judicial interference. And knows that this particular trial is only the opening salvo, and if she messes it up, that will simply get her eliminated as a threat to even more important trials upcoming. (The investigation into Jan 6 and etc. is not yet complete, and even this documents mess may not be all that Jack Smith has in his quiver--I'm going to be very unsurprised if he turns out to have additional charges in his quiver relating to selling or otherwise passing on national security info to Putin etc. Those could be charged at a different second trial--I think there is no rule that says you have to bring the whole investigated matter to a single trial all at once. A careful man--and he seems to me to be one--might well choose to start with the simplest and easiest charges to prove.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Trump wrote this on his Truth Social today:
    "NOW THAT THE 'SEAL' IS BROKEN, IN ADDITION TO CLOSING THE BORDER & REMOVING ALL OF THE 'CRIMINAL' ELEMENTS THAT HAVE ILLEGALLY INVADED OUR COUNTRY, MAKING AMERICA ENERGY INDEPENDENT, & EVEN DOMINANT AGAIN, & IMMEDIATELY ENDING THE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA & UKRAINE, I WILL APPOINT A REAL SPECIAL 'PROSECUTOR' TO GO AFTER THE MOST CORRUPT PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE USA, JOE BIDEN, THE ENTIRE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY, & ALL OTHERS INVOLVED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR ELECTIONS, BORDERS, & COUNTRY ITSELF!"

    The term "seal" is referring to the seventh seal in the Book of Revelation, the time when the Antichrist is destroyed, and the city of God is established. Qanon people claim that Biden is the Antichrist. Trump must see himself as the bringer of the second coming.

    Tomorrow, Miami Police are expecting 50,000 protesters showing up at the arraignment.

    Watch this space.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    Large protests were also predicted in New York. In the end there was one guy with a placard.

    I'll wait and see for the 50000.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited June 2023
    Could you possibly stop doom mongering for just a moment? You're triggering me, and for what? Your own amusement.

    Unfortunately he's right in his first paragraph. We have the same thing here; we joke about constituencies where a dead cat could be elected MP if you put the right colour rosette on it.

    Marjorie Taylor Greene is your poster child here from what I can see over the pond. Clearly delusional, surely only reflects the views of a tiny extreme constituency, but gets elected because she's the Republican.

    We have a few like this over here - Miriam Caites and Philip Davies are two names that spring immediately to mind.

    What any of this has to do with the outcome of the Ukraine war is less obvious.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Trump wrote this on his Truth Social today:
    "NOW THAT THE 'SEAL' IS BROKEN, IN ADDITION TO CLOSING THE BORDER & REMOVING ALL OF THE 'CRIMINAL' ELEMENTS THAT HAVE ILLEGALLY INVADED OUR COUNTRY, MAKING AMERICA ENERGY INDEPENDENT, & EVEN DOMINANT AGAIN, & IMMEDIATELY ENDING THE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA & UKRAINE, I WILL APPOINT A REAL SPECIAL 'PROSECUTOR' TO GO AFTER THE MOST CORRUPT PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE USA, JOE BIDEN, THE ENTIRE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY, & ALL OTHERS INVOLVED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR ELECTIONS, BORDERS, & COUNTRY ITSELF!"

    The term "seal" is referring to the seventh seal in the Book of Revelation, the time when the Antichrist is destroyed, and the city of God is established. Qanon people claim that Biden is the Antichrist. Trump must see himself as the bringer of the second coming.

    Tomorrow, Miami Police are expecting 50,000 protesters showing up at the arraignment.

    Watch this space.
    Good grief! Does the man always post in caps?

    Who is making the reference to Revelation? AFAICT the language of ‘sealed indictments’ and hence ‘breaking the seal’ is relatively commonplace legal terminology in the USA.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    You couldn't make this shit up could you? Thank you Berlusconi RIH. And even if he gave Putin Ukraine's order of battle (what else @Lamb Chopped?!). I mean if this were scripted, it would be like Tony (Blair, The Musical!) I saw on Saturday night at Birmingham Rep.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Meanwhile, Kari Lake basically threatens to kill anyone daring to prosecute Trump: https://www.businessinsider.com/kari-lake-says-gop-has-guns-and-trumps-back-2023-6?r=US&IR=T

    Shouldn't she be behind bars?
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Large protests were also predicted in New York. In the end there was one guy with a placard.

    I'll wait and see for the 50000.

    If they turn up, armed, The Postman here we come.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Trump wrote this on his Truth Social today:
    "NOW THAT THE 'SEAL' IS BROKEN, IN ADDITION TO CLOSING THE BORDER & REMOVING ALL OF THE 'CRIMINAL' ELEMENTS THAT HAVE ILLEGALLY INVADED OUR COUNTRY, MAKING AMERICA ENERGY INDEPENDENT, & EVEN DOMINANT AGAIN, & IMMEDIATELY ENDING THE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA & UKRAINE, I WILL APPOINT A REAL SPECIAL 'PROSECUTOR' TO GO AFTER THE MOST CORRUPT PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE USA, JOE BIDEN, THE ENTIRE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY, & ALL OTHERS INVOLVED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR ELECTIONS, BORDERS, & COUNTRY ITSELF!"

    The term "seal" is referring to the seventh seal in the Book of Revelation, the time when the Antichrist is destroyed, and the city of God is established. Qanon people claim that Biden is the Antichrist. Trump must see himself as the bringer of the second coming.

    Tomorrow, Miami Police are expecting 50,000 protesters showing up at the arraignment.

    Watch this space.
    Good grief! Does the man always post in caps?

    Who is making the reference to Revelation? AFAICT the language of ‘sealed indictments’ and hence ‘breaking the seal’ is relatively commonplace legal terminology in the USA.
    “Breaking the seal” isn’t that commonplace in US legal terminology. “Unseal” is, and I assumed he meant “now that the indictment has been unsealed.” But who knows with Trump.

    But one suggested correction, @Gramps49. I don’t think Trump sees himself as the bringer of the Second Coming. I suspect he thinks he is the Second Coming.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Trump wrote this on his Truth Social today:
    "NOW THAT THE 'SEAL' IS BROKEN, IN ADDITION TO CLOSING THE BORDER & REMOVING ALL OF THE 'CRIMINAL' ELEMENTS THAT HAVE ILLEGALLY INVADED OUR COUNTRY, MAKING AMERICA ENERGY INDEPENDENT, & EVEN DOMINANT AGAIN, & IMMEDIATELY ENDING THE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA & UKRAINE, I WILL APPOINT A REAL SPECIAL 'PROSECUTOR' TO GO AFTER THE MOST CORRUPT PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE USA, JOE BIDEN, THE ENTIRE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY, & ALL OTHERS INVOLVED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR ELECTIONS, BORDERS, & COUNTRY ITSELF!"

    The term "seal" is referring to the seventh seal in the Book of Revelation, the time when the Antichrist is destroyed, and the city of God is established. Qanon people claim that Biden is the Antichrist. Trump must see himself as the bringer of the second coming.

    Tomorrow, Miami Police are expecting 50,000 protesters showing up at the arraignment.

    Watch this space.
    Good grief! Does the man always post in caps?

    Who is making the reference to Revelation? AFAICT the language of ‘sealed indictments’ and hence ‘breaking the seal’ is relatively commonplace legal terminology in the USA.
    “Breaking the seal” isn’t that commonplace in US legal terminology. “Unseal” is, and I assumed he meant “now that the indictment has been unsealed.” But who knows with Trump.

    But one suggested correction, @Gramps49. I don’t think Trump sees himself as the bringer of the Second Coming. I suspect he thinks he is the Second Coming.

    As I explained, Trump purposely used Qanon terminology which is derived from apocalyptic literature, especially Revelation.

    Note to Nick: Yes, you are right. The Don does think he is the Second Coming.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2023
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Trump wrote this on his Truth Social today:
    "NOW THAT THE 'SEAL' IS BROKEN, IN ADDITION TO CLOSING THE BORDER & REMOVING ALL OF THE 'CRIMINAL' ELEMENTS THAT HAVE ILLEGALLY INVADED OUR COUNTRY, MAKING AMERICA ENERGY INDEPENDENT, & EVEN DOMINANT AGAIN, & IMMEDIATELY ENDING THE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA & UKRAINE, I WILL APPOINT A REAL SPECIAL 'PROSECUTOR' TO GO AFTER THE MOST CORRUPT PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE USA, JOE BIDEN, THE ENTIRE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY, & ALL OTHERS INVOLVED WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR ELECTIONS, BORDERS, & COUNTRY ITSELF!"

    The term "seal" is referring to the seventh seal in the Book of Revelation, the time when the Antichrist is destroyed, and the city of God is established. Qanon people claim that Biden is the Antichrist. Trump must see himself as the bringer of the second coming.

    Tomorrow, Miami Police are expecting 50,000 protesters showing up at the arraignment.

    Watch this space.
    Good grief! Does the man always post in caps?

    Who is making the reference to Revelation? AFAICT the language of ‘sealed indictments’ and hence ‘breaking the seal’ is relatively commonplace legal terminology in the USA.
    “Breaking the seal” isn’t that commonplace in US legal terminology. “Unseal” is, and I assumed he meant “now that the indictment has been unsealed.” But who knows with Trump.

    But one suggested correction, @Gramps49. I don’t think Trump sees himself as the bringer of the Second Coming. I suspect he thinks he is the Second Coming.

    As I explained, Trump purposely used Qanon terminology which is derived from apocalyptic literature, especially Revelation.

    Could be. Though I doubt that Trump is aware of the biblical origins of the phrase. There's an old interview with him, maybe from the 2016 primaries, where he says the bible is his favorite book, and when the journalist asks him which parts he likes best, it's clear that he knows almost absolutely nothing about the book.

    At most, someone might have told Trump to use the seal imagery because it's from the bible, but I doubt he even bothered looking it up in Revelation to see the original context.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Oh, I believe he is well versed in Qanon terminology whether or not he reads the Bible.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Large protests were also predicted in New York. In the end there was one guy with a placard.

    I'll wait and see for the 50000.

    If they turn up, armed, The Postman here we come.

    Do we know how many protestors there actually were outside the courthouse? The BBC news website showed a photo of a lone chicken early in the morning. Later when Mr Trump arrived there seemed only a few supporters.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    edited June 2023
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Large protests were also predicted in New York. In the end there was one guy with a placard.

    I'll wait and see for the 50000.

    If they turn up, armed, The Postman here we come.

    Do we know how many protestors there actually were outside the courthouse? The BBC news website showed a photo of a lone chicken early in the morning. Later when Mr Trump arrived there seemed only a few supporters.

    It isn't that straightforward. The hearing itself has not happened yet (it is in another 2+ hours). And the judge has already ordered no photographs or recordings inside the courthouse. As for outside, there is a report that an intersection near the courthouse has been shut down because of the presence of a suspicious object. Source. With all that going on, I don't think there is much point to counting the number of protestors either for or against.

  • Hedgehog wrote: »
    And the judge has already ordered no photographs or recordings inside the courthouse.
    Just to clarify, Rule 53 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (entitled Courtroom Photographing and Broadcasting Prohibited”) provides:
    Except as otherwise provided by a statute or these rules, the court must not permit the taking of photographs in the courtroom during judicial proceedings or the broadcasting of judicial proceedings from the courtroom.
    No exception I’m aware of would apply to this case. So it’s not so much that the judge ordered no photographs or recordings inside the courthouse as it is that that’s simply how it is in federal court.

  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Large protests were also predicted in New York. In the end there was one guy with a placard.

    I'll wait and see for the 50000.

    If they turn up, armed, The Postman here we come.

    Do we know how many protestors there actually were outside the courthouse? The BBC news website showed a photo of a lone chicken early in the morning. Later when Mr Trump arrived there seemed only a few supporters.

    This lone chicken?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Sure did not look like 50,000 protestors on the street. It is my guess that 94F (34.44C) with equally high humidity kept people off the street.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Sure did not look like 50,000 protestors on the street. It is my guess that 94F (34.44C) with equally high humidity kept people off the street.

    Literally fair-weather supporters.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Sure did not look like 50,000 protestors on the street. It is my guess that 94F (34.44C) with equally high humidity kept people off the street.
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Sure did not look like 50,000 protestors on the street. It is my guess that 94F (34.44C) with equally high humidity kept people off the street.

    Literally fair-weather supporters.

    It does seem to offer some reassurance that the threats of insurrection are largely hot air (if you'll pardon the pun). Those unwilling to brave heat are unlikely to be willing to brave tear gas and rubber bullets, much less live rounds.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    The Postman deferred. Would they have turned up, tooled up, at 60F?
  • According to Sky News it was fewer than 500 protesters.

    Increasingly, I feel we can trust Jack Smith. The details in the indictment are compelling and very well organised. Even Bill Barr has admitted Trump's in trouble.

    Trump becoming president again is a major threat to the whole world. There's lots of indirect reasons why this is true but the specific is also clear cut. Trump's allies want to stop supporting Ukraine. As I have noted elsewhere, Russia has already lost in s strategic sense but Ukraine is dependent on outside military aid. If Russia takes control of Ukrainian territory, that will only encourage Chinese ambition with respect to Taiwan. Then we're talking two major destructive wars in the world with one damaging the world's food supply and the other crippling high-tech supply chains.

    Trump is not just dangerous to his own country, he is a massive geopolitical threat.

    AFZ
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Yep. But how does Trump being jailed for treason stop GOP isolationism?
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    It's increasingly clear that Trump is portraying himself as the Messiah, threatened with crucifixion. He isn't the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.' But his followers take him at face value.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Yep. But how does Trump being jailed for treason stop GOP isolationism?

    No.

    Probably Trump wins nomination
    Probably Trump loses general.

    Biden is in good health for his age. But what happens if Biden is not the Democratic candidate??
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Considering the "family values" platform the Republicans are running on, I think any Democratic nominee will be able to win.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Considering the "family values" platform the Republicans are running on, I think any Democratic nominee will be able to win.

    Unless it's the dangerously unhinged scion of the Kennedy family currently challenging Biden in the primary.
  • It came to my mind that at some point Trump could be a flight risk. Found guilty, leaves the country, and goes somewhere they would not allow us to take him back.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    It came to my mind that at some point Trump could be a flight risk. Found guilty, leaves the country, and goes somewhere they would not allow us to take him back.

    I think that would require Trump to accept defeat.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Considering the "family values" platform the Republicans are running on, I think any Democratic nominee will be able to win.

    Why?
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Although I do not rule out a Trump victory one should remember that Biden, who was not a super-terrific candidate, beat Trump in 2020. So there is no reason Biden or another Democrat should not beat Trump in 2024.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Considering the "family values" platform the Republicans are running on, I think any Democratic nominee will be able to win.

    Why?

    Well, if you go to the Pew Research Center and search for any Republican Red Flag: same sex marriage; transgender rights; climate change; freedom of choice (abortion). You will find over 60% of Americans support those issues. 34% favor the Republican position.

    Throw in Gun Control, 75% of Americans are in favor of stricter gun control.

    The majority of Americans want Universal Health Care. Not so Republicans

    80% of Americans say if Trump is convicted of any of the 37 indictments against him, he should do time. Republicans are basically saying he did nothing wrong, of if he did, they would pardon him.

    Yes, there is some softening on some of the issues, but Democratic positions are still quite strong.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Considering the "family values" platform the Republicans are running on, I think any Democratic nominee will be able to win.

    Why?

    Well, if you go to the Pew Research Center and search for any Republican Red Flag: same sex marriage; transgender rights; climate change; freedom of choice (abortion). You will find over 60% of Americans support those issues. 34% favor the Republican position.

    Throw in Gun Control, 75% of Americans are in favor of stricter gun control.

    The majority of Americans want Universal Health Care. Not so Republicans

    80% of Americans say if Trump is convicted of any of the 37 indictments against him, he should do time. Republicans are basically saying he did nothing wrong, of if he did, they would pardon him.

    Yes, there is some softening on some of the issues, but Democratic positions are still quite strong.

    None of those issues can effect the general election of course, which is won in the gerrymandered electoral college. What happens if you search on tax? The economy?
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Although I do not rule out a Trump victory one should remember that Biden, who was not a super-terrific candidate, beat Trump in 2020. So there is no reason Biden or another Democrat should not beat Trump in 2024.

    No rational reason, no.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Was there a rational reason he got to be President in the first place?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Considering the "family values" platform the Republicans are running on, I think any Democratic nominee will be able to win.

    Why?

    Well, if you go to the Pew Research Center and search for any Republican Red Flag: same sex marriage; transgender rights; climate change; freedom of choice (abortion). You will find over 60% of Americans support those issues. 34% favor the Republican position.

    Throw in Gun Control, 75% of Americans are in favor of stricter gun control.

    The majority of Americans want Universal Health Care. Not so Republicans

    80% of Americans say if Trump is convicted of any of the 37 indictments against him, he should do time. Republicans are basically saying he did nothing wrong, of if he did, they would pardon him.

    Yes, there is some softening on some of the issues, but Democratic positions are still quite strong.

    None of those issues can effect the general election of course, which is won in the gerrymandered electoral college. What happens if you search on tax? The economy?

    My answer was to Martin who asked Why would the Repbulicans lose based on my statement of family values.

    The current tax system is helping the rich, but that is not a Democratic problem. The Trump tax cuts favored the rich. Get a Democratic House of Representatives and you will see a balancing out of the tax structure.

    Generally, Americans see themselves in an economically better place than they were four years ago. Even compared to last year, Americans are beginning think we are going in the right direction. Inflation has decreased from 11% to 4%. Unemployment is still very low. We just might have that soft landing the Federal Reserve would like to see happen.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    The trouble is, though, that Presidential elections are won and lost in the electoral college, not the popular vote.

    The Republican party knows this, and has spent decades setting itself up for minority rule.
  • The trouble is, though, that Presidential elections are won and lost in the electoral college, not the popular vote.

    The Republican party knows this, and has spent decades setting itself up for minority rule.

    Indeed. And Trump's PAC is currently working on a third-party spoiler campaign in swing states...

    There's a lot to this.

    What's striking to me is how deeply invested in Trumpism the GOP is. Such that they can't break free from his lies and myths. This will destroy the party as whilst such propaganda is very effective (especially when combined with entrenched power structures) it ultimately comes unstuck when it argues with reality. The only question really is will they destroy the USA in the process?

    FWIW, I think 2020 to Jan 21 was the most dangerous time. The tide has fallen back quite a bit since then but it would be foolish to think the danger has passed.

    The rest of the world suffers along with the US.

    As for Trump himself? He's in very serious legal jeapody in at least 4 cases. I doubt he'll wriggle out of all of them.

    AFZ
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    But if the next President is Republican they could just pardon him couldn't they?

    Can Presidents only pardon people at the end of their term or can they do it at any time during their term?
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    The trouble is, though, that Presidential elections are won and lost in the electoral college, not the popular vote.

    The Republican party knows this, and has spent decades setting itself up for minority rule.

    Glad you agree.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Huia wrote: »
    But if the next President is Republican they could just pardon him couldn't they?

    Can Presidents only pardon people at the end of their term or can they do it at any time during their term?

    As I recall the pardon and commutation power is pretty broad, and can be exercised at any time. Pretty much the only check on it is the impeachment process, and even that is an exercise in post equine exit securing of the means of egress.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    AIUI presidents can only pardon for federal offences.
  • Presidents have very broad powers to pardon and can do so at any time during their term. They can only pardon federal offences. Two of Trump's cases are State cases.

    IANAL but I know this is correct.

    AFZ
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I think that Trump is less popular with everyone outside his base than he was in November 2020. His base have doubled down on him (which is a very bad thing in itself) but I do not think non-base people are more likely to vote for him in 2024 than they were in 2020. Anyone who dislikes Biden enough to vote Trump probably already did so in 2020. Anyone who dislikes Trump enough to vote against him in 2020 has even more reasons to do so now. That is my rational case for optimism.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I think that Trump is less popular with everyone outside his base than he was in November 2020. His base have doubled down on him (which is a very bad thing in itself) but I do not think non-base people are more likely to vote for him in 2024 than they were in 2020. Anyone who dislikes Biden enough to vote Trump probably already did so in 2020. Anyone who dislikes Trump enough to vote against him in 2020 has even more reasons to do so now. That is my rational case for optimism.

    My one worry is the number of people whose thinking doesn't get further than "do I think things are going well?" yes: vote incumbent; no: vote challenger.
Sign In or Register to comment.