He's gone back to Jerusalem. Where that other guy (sorry, I forget the name of his title) had to shelter in a bomb shelter when he went to do diplomacy for the presidency.
Given also that there are plans to evacuate US citizens by boat, it doesn't look like they think Israel is particularly safe. Although thinking about it further, I'm not sure how safe it would be to be evacuated on a boat to Cyprus if things degenerated further.
IDF have given a statement claiming the attack on the hospital was a misfired attack from Islamic Jihad. But really, I don’t see how we’d know without independent investigation, which is not feasible in an active warzone.
This is the statement from the Israeli military statement as reported in the Guardian
First, we confirmed that there was no IDF fire by land, sea or air that hit the hospital.
Second, our radar system tracked rockets fired by terrorists from within Gaza at the time of the explosion. I will show you the trajectory analysis from the barrage of rockets confirms that the rockets were fired close proximity to the hospital.
In addition there are two independent videos which show the failure of the rocket launch and the continued continuation of rocket flight towards the ground with in the Gaza Strip falling in the hospital compound.
Third, we have intelligence, some that will be shared here, of communication between terrorists talking about rockets misfiring. The terrorists realise that the rocket has misfired and made specific reference to the al-Ahli al-Arabi hospital.
It's the fog of war. Either possibility might be true - I can't see that there is anything gained by either Islamic Jihad nor the IDF admitting it was them.
Of course there's also the undeniable truth that there would not have been so many people in the hospital if they not been forcibly moved etc etc.
Quite, no one is going to claim responsibility for this sort public relations disaster. But I was not aware Israel was trying to shut down 20 hospitals in the middle of a humanitarian disaster - that is very difficult to justify.
The BBC says that they're working with experts to verify the claims of the IDF. Which is interesting, not least because the Israeli military spokesman just heavily implied that the BBC are responsible for spreading untruths about the event to Arab countries, which of course the BBC reporter pushed back on.
It is also reported that other journalists from other international news agencies found the IDF presentation hard to accept.
Look, neither side is going to say "It was us, we bombed a hospital, sorry about that". The end result is intense anger throughout the rest of the world no matter what side anyone is on and any chance of resolving this peacefully can be forgotten now. Nobody on either side is going to forgive anyone on the other side for this, no matter what the truth of it and who did it. It's gone too far for that. People are well aware of fake news, counterfeited evidence, claims and counterclaims these days. I don't know how you could prove that anyone did it without someone saying the evidence had been faked or distorted. What's done is done. The only thing we can all be certain of is that people have died as a result.
There was a protest march in London last Saturday lunchtime and a demo outside the Israeli Embassy. I didn't go to either. They were letting off fireworks in Trafalgar Square and still going at 7pm. There's another protest planned for this coming Saturday. After what's just happened you can bet it'll be angry. And that's just London. Anger is very real and being expressed globally in towns and cities across the world, not just the Middle East. How you defuse a mess like this and start to restore peace and even build trust amongst communities after this I do not know.
I don't think Biden is helping when he says that the hospital bombing was done by the "other team".
He came to the region (at some level) as an arbiter, given that the US gives a lot of $$s to both Egypt and Israel. The EU gives quite a lot to the PA and the UNWRA, so I think as the "head" of the allies which comprise of EU+NATO+US+ there's a lot of money that is being passed into various hands.
Saying that there are "sides" at this stage seems like a mistake when there going to be a lot of people in Arab states who wouldn't naturally be allies of Iran but who are unlikely to believe anything the IDF says.
Another thing that I was thinking this morning is that even if it could be conclusively proven that the Israeli military were not in any way involved in the hospital explosion, they are now backed into a corner. How are they actually going to avoid hospitals and schools and mosques in the future?
They've basically now said "believe me, we wouldn't do that." If they now do it having made a big public point of showing that they didn't on this occasion the lid is really going to blow.
I had a look at twitter, a complete mish-mash of claims, counter-claims, videos, false flag attributions. You can't find your way through that. I guess the best thing right now would be a cease-fire, not much hope of that.
I had a look at twitter, a complete mish-mash of claims, counter-claims, videos, false flag attributions. You can't find your way through that.
Shayan Sardarizadeh on Twitter is pretty good - he's a BBC journalist whose job is to make sense of the various claims and counter-claims and call out disinformation where he sees it. He flags these things up. I used to follow him before I migrated. He's starting to post on Threads as well now.
I guess the best thing right now would be a cease-fire, not much hope of that.
I don't think either side wants a ceasefire - they both seem hell-bent on this being the climactic battle where one side is victorious and the other is utterly destroyed. It's terrible, but I don't see any way this ends other than for the whole of Israel and Palestine to be utterly cleansed of either Israelis or Palestinians. And a plague on both their houses for allowing it to come to such a pass.
Another point is that the Arab street, so-called, will blame Israel, well, for everything. Presumably, Arab governments will follow suit, to avoid riots in their own streets. But, I would guess that considerable diplomatic pressure is being applied to various parties, especially, Iran, not to get involved, and to hold back Hezbollah. Maybe it has gone too far.
This is interesting. For one thing, doesn't it give a tacit admission that Israel has a level of control on the Gaza border with Egypt?
A statement from the Israeli Prime Minister's office says that Israel "will not thwart humanitarian supplies from Egypt as long as it is only food, water and medicine for the civilian population in the southern Gaza Strip".
This is interesting. For one thing, doesn't it give a tacit admission that Israel has a level of control on the Gaza border with Egypt?
A statement from the Israeli Prime Minister's office says that Israel "will not thwart humanitarian supplies from Egypt as long as it is only food, water and medicine for the civilian population in the southern Gaza Strip".
I disagree, the claim has always been that Israel was not involved at Rafah.
Perhaps, but the only reason there is a blockade from the Egyptian side is because Israel wants one and has, with US assistance, secured a pliant regime in Cairo to ensure it continues.
I know we like to focus on individuals but I suspect geo-politics is more about blocs and groups than individuals.
You need a group for Putin to be Putin or Biden to be Biden or Netanyahu to be Netanyahu or ...
But no, I can't think of any immediate individual.
The UN has been mentioned. There will be those who don't think they are the right ones for the job either.
Prayer? There are those on all sides who believe the Almighty has a special interest in them gaining the upper hand.
If there is to be a solution it will need a miracle or people to be remarkably tolerant, forgiving and forbearing to bring it about. The more the bombs and rockets fly around the harder that will be.
Could we please avoid massive generalisations of what Arabs and Jews think as if there is a single raciocuultually decided monolithic opinion for each. Also if you are going to talk about the opinions of particularly groups, let’s actually hear them - please link to own voice sources.
There's still a lot of chatter about the hospital explosion this morning - but it doesn't seem to be going very far. A few agencies have asked a panel of experts (who may or may not be the same, who knows) and the conclusions are inconclusive. Many experts don't seem to want to give an opinion.
What seems undoubtedly true is that the event has quickly become polarised - with claims and counter-claims. Some are fairly plainly ridiculous, such as the one which says that the death toll must be low(er) because the explosion happened in a carpark and there was no visible damage to the hospital building.
Which ignores that many had crowded into the hospital compound because they thought it was a safe place.
Another thing that pains me more, to be honest, is how this has monopolised the conversation about the morality of the conflict. What I mean is that the hospital is in central Gaza in a zone where people have been evacuated.
Surely it is as serious that the Israeli military have been shelling the south of Gaza, including damaging the access from Rafah, which we are told is the only possible way that aid can enter Gaza? Surely it is important that between Israel and Egypt there is only a *promise* of 20 lorries of food and aid to help millions? Surely it is important that Israel insists there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
I also read with a very heavy heart that the Israeli military say that Gaza will be smaller in the future. It's already crowded, with creaking and non-functional infrastructure. It seems clear to me that the plan is still to force millions of Gazans into tents in the Egyptian desert, but the Egyptian President insists that this will not happen.
Netanyahu has given the green light to invade Gaza by land.
Meanwhile, the USS Carney, operating in the Red Sea, intercepted and shot down three cruise missiles and several drones that came from Iranian backed rebels in Yemen that were supposedly aimed at Israel.
Then too, two American bases in Iraq and one in Syria have been hit by likely Iranian backed groups.
As I've said elsewhere, if you can call a ceasefire, you can arrange to put hostilities on hold indefinitely. Killing each other solves nothing and creates worse tension.
I pray that by the time the gate between Egypt and Gaza has been sufficiently decratered to allow supply truck into Gaza,it will not be too late. From what I hear, Israel has cut off all supplies to Gaza, not least almost all water. A few more days of this, and deaths from thirst or starvation, especially among children, will out number those by bombing.
I pray that by the time the gate between Egypt and Gaza has been sufficiently decratered to allow supply truck into Gaza,it will not be too late. From what I hear, Israel has cut off all supplies to Gaza, not least almost all water. A few more days of this, and deaths from thirst or starvation, especially among children, will out number those by bombing.
I worry that cholera and dysentery are likely to beat them all to the punch.
First, Israel is demanding proof of something-or-other regarding the lorries at Rafah. I don't believe that they are at the Egyptian side of the gate and I doubt that they're on the Gaza side. So I don't really understand what their involvement is (or how one could prove things to them).
Second, given all the talk about the hospital explosion that went on for days, it is interesting that the Palestinian Red Crescent have said that they've been told to evacuate hospitals - and as far as I can tell the Israeli military have not denied this. If they're not planning to damage the hospital, why would they say it needs to be evacuated?
I still can't see any way out of this mess which isn't bad.
My main feeling now is helplessness. Israel carpet bombing, moving people forcibly, settlers removing Bedouin, and the world watches, or in fact aids and abets. Is this hell?
No, no, the real problem is Greta Thunberg's stuffed octopus.
The guy who started it had a history of referring to all Russians as 'vatniks' and excusing photos of the Azov battalion sporting Sonnenrads, he's now deleted the original post and claimed it was all a social experiment.
There's something unedifying about older men publicly bullying very young women.
First, Israel is demanding proof of something-or-other regarding the lorries at Rafah. I don't believe that they are at the Egyptian side of the gate and I doubt that they're on the Gaza side. So I don't really understand what their involvement is (or how one could prove things to them).
Second, given all the talk about the hospital explosion that went on for days, it is interesting that the Palestinian Red Crescent have said that they've been told to evacuate hospitals - and as far as I can tell the Israeli military have not denied this. If they're not planning to damage the hospital, why would they say it needs to be evacuated?
In case Hamas cause the damage ?
I still can't see any way out of this mess which isn't bad.
As I've said elsewhere, if you can call a ceasefire, you can arrange to put hostilities on hold indefinitely. Killing each other solves nothing and creates worse tension.
Hamas want the destruction of Israel. If they wanted a peaceful solution they wouldn't have started this recent conflict.
Went to see the demo in London today. I have mixed feelings about these. They show the strength of feeling, they show solidarity, but other than that they achieve nothing. For the time being it's about all you can do.
I didn't actually join in. There was an endless stream of people pouring past down into Whitehall which would have been horribly crowded; but the strength of feeling was evident. So much passion - well-controlled but definitely there - so much upset. Mirrored in other cities across the world as well today.
I was touched to see a Jewish group with a large banner that said "Not In My Name." A visible reminder that there are ordinary people on the Israeli side who also hate what's being done.
I was touched to see a Jewish group with a large banner that said "Not In My Name." A visible reminder that there are ordinary people on the Israeli side who also hate what's being done.
I'm sure you didn't intend this but you seem to be implying that Jews must be Israeli, which obviously isn't the case.
I was touched to see a Jewish group with a large banner that said "Not In My Name." A visible reminder that there are ordinary people on the Israeli side who also hate what's being done.
I'm sure you didn't intend this but you seem to be implying that Jews must be Israeli, which obviously isn't the case.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I was thinking that they were there expressing their own views, but also their presence was a reminder that there are those in Israel who can't say these things for fear of being considered unpatriotic.
I came across this which might be of interest to you @Ariel It's by Noam Shuster - she's an Israeli peace activist who grew up in a community where Israelis and Palestinians chose to live together. It gives an idea of how some people are speaking out in Israel and refusing to support attacks on Palestinian civilians despite facing threats.
I've only just realised that Hamas are Sunni -and yet they are (as I understand) largely funded by Iran which are Shi'i. Are the two streams of Islam coming together?
If I understand it correctly, Iran has known that it can't afford to be picky about allies or influence in the Islamic world, pretty much since the Revolution, and has been working accordingly to spread the word that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
At least that is according to my memory of John McHugo's book A History of Sunnis and Shi'is.
Comments
I doubt I have ever conflated Oz and deportation either to or from on this vessel.
Chapter and verse would be appreciated thank you
I went to school with their kids.
It wouldn't surprise me if Biden had been pushing the Egyptians to accept refugees.
Given also that there are plans to evacuate US citizens by boat, it doesn't look like they think Israel is particularly safe. Although thinking about it further, I'm not sure how safe it would be to be evacuated on a boat to Cyprus if things degenerated further.
The UN is apparently using guarded language but at very least suggesting it was from the Israeli military.
Why, if you are not attacking hospitals, would you need them evacuating ?
Of course there's also the undeniable truth that there would not have been so many people in the hospital if they not been forcibly moved etc etc.
It is also reported that other journalists from other international news agencies found the IDF presentation hard to accept.
There was a protest march in London last Saturday lunchtime and a demo outside the Israeli Embassy. I didn't go to either. They were letting off fireworks in Trafalgar Square and still going at 7pm. There's another protest planned for this coming Saturday. After what's just happened you can bet it'll be angry. And that's just London. Anger is very real and being expressed globally in towns and cities across the world, not just the Middle East. How you defuse a mess like this and start to restore peace and even build trust amongst communities after this I do not know.
He came to the region (at some level) as an arbiter, given that the US gives a lot of $$s to both Egypt and Israel. The EU gives quite a lot to the PA and the UNWRA, so I think as the "head" of the allies which comprise of EU+NATO+US+ there's a lot of money that is being passed into various hands.
Saying that there are "sides" at this stage seems like a mistake when there going to be a lot of people in Arab states who wouldn't naturally be allies of Iran but who are unlikely to believe anything the IDF says.
Another thing that I was thinking this morning is that even if it could be conclusively proven that the Israeli military were not in any way involved in the hospital explosion, they are now backed into a corner. How are they actually going to avoid hospitals and schools and mosques in the future?
They've basically now said "believe me, we wouldn't do that." If they now do it having made a big public point of showing that they didn't on this occasion the lid is really going to blow.
Shayan Sardarizadeh on Twitter is pretty good - he's a BBC journalist whose job is to make sense of the various claims and counter-claims and call out disinformation where he sees it. He flags these things up. I used to follow him before I migrated. He's starting to post on Threads as well now.
I don't think either side wants a ceasefire - they both seem hell-bent on this being the climactic battle where one side is victorious and the other is utterly destroyed. It's terrible, but I don't see any way this ends other than for the whole of Israel and Palestine to be utterly cleansed of either Israelis or Palestinians. And a plague on both their houses for allowing it to come to such a pass.
Ok. Apologies @Sojourner. I thought I saw a comment somewhere that Australia would have been a good home for survivors of the Holocaust.
It may have been on a closed thread.
I may have mixed you up with someone else and apologise for doing so.
Not exactly news, that.
Perhaps, but the only reason there is a blockade from the Egyptian side is because Israel wants one and has, with US assistance, secured a pliant regime in Cairo to ensure it continues.
Do you have any suggestions for who could help?
You need a group for Putin to be Putin or Biden to be Biden or Netanyahu to be Netanyahu or ...
But no, I can't think of any immediate individual.
The UN has been mentioned. There will be those who don't think they are the right ones for the job either.
Prayer? There are those on all sides who believe the Almighty has a special interest in them gaining the upper hand.
If there is to be a solution it will need a miracle or people to be remarkably tolerant, forgiving and forbearing to bring it about. The more the bombs and rockets fly around the harder that will be.
Doublethink, Admin
What seems undoubtedly true is that the event has quickly become polarised - with claims and counter-claims. Some are fairly plainly ridiculous, such as the one which says that the death toll must be low(er) because the explosion happened in a carpark and there was no visible damage to the hospital building.
Which ignores that many had crowded into the hospital compound because they thought it was a safe place.
Another thing that pains me more, to be honest, is how this has monopolised the conversation about the morality of the conflict. What I mean is that the hospital is in central Gaza in a zone where people have been evacuated.
Surely it is as serious that the Israeli military have been shelling the south of Gaza, including damaging the access from Rafah, which we are told is the only possible way that aid can enter Gaza? Surely it is important that between Israel and Egypt there is only a *promise* of 20 lorries of food and aid to help millions? Surely it is important that Israel insists there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza?
I also read with a very heavy heart that the Israeli military say that Gaza will be smaller in the future. It's already crowded, with creaking and non-functional infrastructure. It seems clear to me that the plan is still to force millions of Gazans into tents in the Egyptian desert, but the Egyptian President insists that this will not happen.
Where will it end?
Not Armageddon I hope.
Meanwhile, the USS Carney, operating in the Red Sea, intercepted and shot down three cruise missiles and several drones that came from Iranian backed rebels in Yemen that were supposedly aimed at Israel.
Then too, two American bases in Iraq and one in Syria have been hit by likely Iranian backed groups.
I worry that cholera and dysentery are likely to beat them all to the punch.
First, Israel is demanding proof of something-or-other regarding the lorries at Rafah. I don't believe that they are at the Egyptian side of the gate and I doubt that they're on the Gaza side. So I don't really understand what their involvement is (or how one could prove things to them).
Second, given all the talk about the hospital explosion that went on for days, it is interesting that the Palestinian Red Crescent have said that they've been told to evacuate hospitals - and as far as I can tell the Israeli military have not denied this. If they're not planning to damage the hospital, why would they say it needs to be evacuated?
I still can't see any way out of this mess which isn't bad.
The guy who started it had a history of referring to all Russians as 'vatniks' and excusing photos of the Azov battalion sporting Sonnenrads, he's now deleted the original post and claimed it was all a social experiment.
There's something unedifying about older men publicly bullying very young women.
Hamas want the destruction of Israel. If they wanted a peaceful solution they wouldn't have started this recent conflict.
I didn't actually join in. There was an endless stream of people pouring past down into Whitehall which would have been horribly crowded; but the strength of feeling was evident. So much passion - well-controlled but definitely there - so much upset. Mirrored in other cities across the world as well today.
I was touched to see a Jewish group with a large banner that said "Not In My Name." A visible reminder that there are ordinary people on the Israeli side who also hate what's being done.
I'm sure you didn't intend this but you seem to be implying that Jews must be Israeli, which obviously isn't the case.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I was thinking that they were there expressing their own views, but also their presence was a reminder that there are those in Israel who can't say these things for fear of being considered unpatriotic.
https://www.972mag.com/picking-up-pieces-grief-israelis-palestinians/
What this will do for the children's stability is hard to say - it will take them some time to feel safe anywhere after this.
At least that is according to my memory of John McHugo's book A History of Sunnis and Shi'is.