Many Indian people speak English as a first language, if you have difficulty with the accent you just need to listen carefully, you’ll get your ear in after a while. Just as you would with a Tyne or Glaswegian accent. If they were actually giving a service in Urdu or Hindi then your church needs a translator.
It's usually intonation and emphasis rather than accent per se that I find hard to follow. A couple of years ago we had a visiting priest who came from I think Kenya. I found him hard to follow, which was a shame, because what I could follow was well worth paying attention to.
Intonation and emphasis are part of accent.
Indian English has been taught by Indian English speakers for several generations now; this means that some specifically Indian English features are part of what is taught as English. My surname has a Th in it and an 'or' digraph; many Indian speakers cannot pronounce it at all.
Having said that, a lot of Scots and Americans seem to call me Carol.
One of the vestigial influences of Gaelic on Scots and Scottish English is a tendency to separate consonant sounds with a slight "uh" rather than run them together. "Alba" being a classic example.
Aye, but I don't pronounce the R in my name so it sounds doubly strange when it's pronounced to the extent it creates an extra syllable.
Yes, we get Bible study leaders from everywhere, and some of them are easier to understand than others. The one from Haiti we have at the moment isn't too difficult. It helps for me to remember how crap my Vietnamese accent is.
*chuckle* Over the last 48 years I’ve met many Oz-born 3rd generation people of Vietnamese parentage. To a man ( and woman) they all comment that their grandparents complain that they speak the language of their ancestors with a “hard mouth”.
Yes; but that's because you're non-rhotic. Come here (especially certain parts of the South) and watch how your name expands.
This raises an interesting question of conflicting rights and identities doesn't it? How far does my right to define what my name is overrule someone else's right to pronounce words including names according to phonology of their chosen dialect?
I really hate the R being pronounced specifically because (especially if the a is also shortened) it makes it sound like "Carol" which (a) isn't my name and (b) isn't a name associated with the gender I identify as.
I'd go with telling people my name is "Kahl" if that would resolve it.
I suspect that the fact is that people will pronounce one's name how they pronounce it. No-one has the right to tell other people how to speak their native language. My surname has always been mangled, in both spelling and pronunciation terms, so I have some idea whereof I speak
I suspect that the fact is that people will pronounce one's name how they pronounce it. No-one has the right to tell other people how to speak their native language. My surname has always been mangled, in both spelling and pronunciation terms, so I have some idea whereof I speak
Well that's the conflict isn't ir? I really, really hate having my name pronounced with a pronounced R. Don't I have any rights about that? Am I even allowed to ask people to pronounce it the way I recognise it?
Ironically I don't actually like my name very much and flinch when I have to say it myself. Somehow hearing it pronounced in a way I don't recognise just makes it ten times worse. I can't explain it.
My given name—which for the record isn’t Nick or Nicholas—gets mispronounced all the time. And by mispronounced, I mean that in parts of the South, my name is traditionally pronounced differently from the standard American pronunciation (though due to TV and movies, that’s changing). My family and I pronounce my name the tradional Southern way, not the “standard” American way.
I don’t particularly like the standard American pronunciation, mainly I’m sure simply because it’s not how I say my name, so it doesn’t quite feel like “me.” But I decided a long time ago that life is too short to worry about how anyone says my name or to correct people if they get it wrong. The exceptions have been when I got married—I wanted my wife’s family to know how to say my name—or I might say something to close friends who are getting it wrong. And sometimes people will catch how I or my wife say my name and will ask if they’ve been mispronouncing it. Of course, occasionally I meet others who, when I introduce myself, will say something like “oh, you say it correctly!”
As far as that goes, sometimes I’ll mispronounce my name. If I’m making a phone call and a receptionist I’ll likely never talk to again asks my name, life is just a lot easier if I use the standard American pronunciation; that way, I don’t get asked to repeat my name or spell it.
So based on my experience, @KarlLB, I’d say you can ask, but you might not get very far by asking, especially if what you’re asking is in essence that someone who normally speaks with a rhotic accent speak with a non-rhotic accent when they say your name. But I feel your pain.
My given name—which for the record isn’t Nick or Nicholas—gets mispronounced all the time. And by mispronounced, I mean that in parts of the South, my name is traditionally pronounced differently from the standard American pronunciation (though due to TV and movies, that’s changing). My family and I pronounce my name the tradional Southern way, not the “standard” American way.
I don’t particularly like the standard American pronunciation, mainly I’m sure simply because it’s not how I say my name, so it doesn’t quite feel like “me.” But I decided a long time ago that life is too short to worry about how anyone says my name or to correct people if they get it wrong. The exceptions have been when I got married—I wanted my wife’s family to know how to say my name—or I might say something to close friends who are getting it wrong. And sometimes people will catch how I or my wife say my name and will ask if they’ve been mispronouncing it. Of course, occasionally I meet others who, when I introduce myself, will say something like “oh, you say it correctly!”
As far as that goes, sometimes I’ll mispronounce my name. If I’m making a phone call and a receptionist I’ll likely never talk to again asks my name, life is just a lot easier if I use the standard American pronunciation; that way, I don’t get asked to repeat my name or spell it.
So based on my experience, @KarlLB, I’d say you can ask, but you might not get very far by asking, especially if what you’re asking is in essence that someone who normally speaks with a rhotic accent speak with a non-rhotic accent when they say your name. But I feel your pain.
I'd get that more if the sounds in question where alien to rhotic accents, but they're not, unless people with rhotic accents insert an R into words such as dhal and pronounce it as Darrel.
A lot of people "see" words in their mind's eye when they are given to them ("My name is Karl!") and file it that way in memory. So when they go to call you by your name, the internal visual of your name pops up and they pronounce it as they would pronounce that collection of letters normally--unless you've massively impressed upon them that you hate it. (I'm explaining this because I don't want you thinking the rhotic types are deliberately staying rhotic AT you.)
As for me (and I'm aware it's a personal choice), I work with people from so many languages and backgrounds that I'll settle for any approximation of my name--and even occasionally for a complete mistake, if it's easier that way (e.g. person is never going to see me again anyway). If I held my Vietnamese friends to pronouncing my IRL name correctly, we'd all be in a world of hurt--for a while there, I had three r's in my name, and a lot of Asian languages can't cope with American r's.
Mortified to realise I can hardly understand Afrikaans as spoken in Johannesburg ('ik' [meaning I] instead of 'ek') though I speak it all the time here in the Cape. Different and unfamiliar inflections for the same words.
Back to sermons, today's theme was World Mission Sunday, 'Hearts on fire; feet on the move,' followed by reports from the meeting of Ethiopian and Eritrean Catholic community leaders this last week, and a reminder for volunteers to help refugees and migrants struggling with document renewals.
need to coordinate our hearts with our eyes and our hands. Even if we only have one eye and one hand, we still have two feet to run away from temptation. The Holy Spirit will give us strength.
The talk (Our Place doesn't use the word sermon) today was based around Acts Chapter 3 where Peter heals the lame beggar and then addresses the crowd. Our rector suggested that although the beggar was in a bad place, we are in a much worse place if we do not heed God's call to repent. The remedy in both cases was / is the powerful name of Jesus. A very short précis of a twenty minute sermon talk
We use a Narrative Lectionary. Today's lesson was about the anointing of David. Pastor talked about how the people wanted a powerful king, but God chose a 14-year-old boy who had blue eyes. God does things like this even today.
The point here is the intonation. Indian English has totally different intonation patterns and it is not reasonable to expect native speakers of British English to be able to pick up Indian English intonation patterns intuitively. They are different languages from a spoken point of view.
Our bishop, who has some marvellous things to say, comes from Kerala in south India. I've heard him preach twice; his English is perfect – maybe his first language, I don't know – but the intonation takes some getting used to. I had to struggle to concentrate. No doubt I my ears will get acclimatised, and I have the same problem with Glaswegian and even more with Northern Irish. But it illustrates the richness and variety of the English language.
Yes; but that's because you're non-rhotic. Come here (especially certain parts of the South) and watch how your name expands.
This raises an interesting question of conflicting rights and identities doesn't it? How far does my right to define what my name is overrule someone else's right to pronounce words including names according to phonology of their chosen dialect?
I really hate the R being pronounced specifically because (especially if the a is also shortened) it makes it sound like "Carol" which (a) isn't my name and (b) isn't a name associated with the gender I identify as.
I'd go with telling people my name is "Kahl" if that would resolve it.
I used to work with two people called Craig. One of them was "Kregg" and one of them was "Krayg". They got called the "wrong" version only slightly less than half the time.
I'm actually reminded of my childhood French lessons, where we were all expected to introduce ourselves as Jacques, or Guillaume, or Jean, or Philippe, or whatever the French equivalent of our names was. I always used to think "that's not my name".
I am further reminded of brothers Charles and Jonathan Powell.
The former, Baron Powell of Bayswater, was an advisor to Margaret Thatcher when she was PM, and pronounces his surname as the traditional upper-class "Pole". The latter served as chief of staff to Tony Blair when he was PM, and pronounces his surname with two syllables, to rhyme with "trowel".
They're brothers, and have the same name, but choose different pronunciations.
More Sermon on the Mount: Matthew 5: 31-32 (although Matthew 19: 3-11 as well)
We all view divorce through different lenses: culture, experience, feelings, questions. Divorce wasn't a command but a concession. Questions on divorce should always be answered by talking about marriage and reconciliation before divorce. It is always regrettable, sometimes permitted. We need not to make marriage an idol.
Amen to that. Schlepped out to St-Pat’s-in-the West today for no particular reason and on arrival realised that the Mass was ( apart from the usual) a celebration of multiple wedding anniversaries🙀. As an ex chorister ( 45 years married to spousecwho lives 1200 kn away) I sat it though. Music gorgeous apart from horrid Philip Stopford anthen sung by warbling tenor & sop who appeared to be a couple. DOM ( confirmed bachelor) & I had a quiet chuckle afterwards.
Our talk about "persecution" was based on Acts 4: 1-31, where Peter & John are imprisoned and appear before the Sanhedrin after healing the lame man and speaking out about Jesus.
Compared with the very real persecution that Christians in some countries face, we are likely to receive much milder opposition when speaking about our faith but are still often reluctant to do so. Our minister suggested that the passage indicates five ways to deal with this: Stick together
Pray
Read scripture
Seek the Spirit's guidance
Speak / act boldly
God is the God of truthfulness: The Devil is the Father of Lies. The two of them are battling it out over what we say. But we know that God will win out. Learn to rely on the promises of God and act them out.
Happily our PP has returned. Today was the enrolment Mass for the candidates for first Holy Communion. 30 freshly scrubbed 8/9 year olds and their parents. So numbers jumped from 95 last week to over 200 this week. The pp had them all up front for the homily and did a Q&A with them about being a follower of Jesus.
The Lectionary readings were all about the fate that awaits corrupt and hypocritical religious leaders, so wisely they were not touched on.
Our text today was Mark 1:14-20. This being an "all age" service where children & youth did not go off to their separate groups, the talk was a little lighter (and shorter!) than usual. The first disciples trusted Jesus enough to drop everything and follow him. We were asked to indicate who we trusted by raising our hands as a series of images were projected onto the screen: Family - a forest of hands Doctors - a pretty good showing Politicians - couldn't see any hands from where I was sitting My dog - received more votes than politicians!
The meat of the talk was the need to trust Jesus by repenting and following him
Our lesson was about Elijah vs the prophets of Baal--where the challenge was for the prophets of Baal to get their god(s) to ignite an offering. Pastor discussed the types of gods control our lives today, in particular, the need for security, the economy, and the Military-Industrial Complex. Those gods demand much. Our God only asks that we walk in humility, concern for the other, and work for justice.
We had the binding of Isaac as the reading (no idea why), and a sermon about trust, but switching the focus from us trusting God to God trusting us. Interesting but I think it left on the table the more difficult and problematic elements of the story - if you think God is telling you to kill your son, maybe consider the possibility that it's not God talking to you?
We had the binding of Isaac as the reading (no idea why), and a sermon about trust, but switching the focus from us trusting God to God trusting us. Interesting but I think it left on the table the more difficult and problematic elements of the story - if you think God is telling you to kill your son, maybe consider the possibility that it's not God talking to you?
At Our Place we are ploughing through doing a series on Romans and every talk begins with an "I can't begin to do this passage justice in the time I've got" disclaimer. Today it was about the nature of worship - the first mention of it in the Bible being when Abraham took Isaac up the mountain and Abraham says they are going to "worship" - with a segue into how to pray for world peace (no, I can't remember how that segue was achieved). The speaker had said we were free to interrupt and ask questions or make comments; I wish I'd had the courage to say that if someone thinks God is telling them to kill their son they should maybe consider the possibility that it's not God speaking, but I didn't.
Remembrance. Sermon was based on Jeremiah's comment on people saying "peace" when there was none - then an exploration of the meaning and hope expressed by the word "Shalom".
Jesus commands us not to fight back against evil people and break the cycle of revenge. We should leave justice and revenge to the civil authorities and God. Systematic evil exists, but it isn't our place to deal with it (I might have misunderstood this bit - I certainly hope I did).
Our minister appeared to have taken into account that this morning's Remembrance Sunday congregation would include a large number of people who are not regularly present. A short three verse reading, Micah 6: 6-8, seemed designed to hold people's attention, and was followed by a shorter than normal talk on "what God requires". He does not require us to be "religious" (the modern day equivalent of OT sacrifices) but to act with justice, have a loving heart and a humble spirit.
"Vision Sunday" at Our Place today, where the reading was Romans 12: 1-8
The theme of the talk was "every member ministry". We all have unique personalities, skills and gifts, and were invited to reflect on how we might use these to serve both our church and (perhaps more importantly) the wider community.
Finished our series on Matthew 5 ( Matthew 6-7 are coming in the New Year) with Matthew 5: 43-48
This is another hard saying of Jesus. These have been given to help us to grow. What is required is not wisdom, but rather softness of heart. We prayed for that.
Parable of the talents. The third slave hid his talent because he was afraid of failure and inadvertently upsetting his master. We can be the same, becoming obsessed with our own potential failure instead of confidently sharing our God given talents. Well, something like that. (I was preaching)
Our deacon preached - always a welcome change. Started by observing that the Calendar had provided a week of very interesting and diverse saints. Linked that to the parable of the talents (Gospel) and the prudent wife (Wisdom, 1st reading.)
For the second month in a row the Lay Reader promised from a neighbouring parish failed to arrive so Matins didn't have a sermon. No bad thing - church was fairly chilly so we got to coffee 10 minutes earlier.
Today was the feast of Christ the King and the sermon addressed this, but my concentration was disturbed by the preacher saying Jesus's (sounded like Jesusus) name over and over rather than Jesus' name. It was so uncomfortable to my ears that I lost the plot of the sermon.
Today was the feast of Christ the King and the sermon addressed this, but my concentration was disturbed by the preacher saying Jesus's (sounded like Jesusus) name over and over rather than Jesus' name. It was so uncomfortable to my ears that I lost the plot of the sermon.
Pronouncing it without the additional -es syllable sounds wrong to me.
Finishing the series in Romans (chapters 15 and 16, covered in about 15 minutes) Paul said his plan was to swing by Rome on the way to Spain. It didn't work out that way as he never made it to Spain and ended up as a prisoner in Rome. In other words, life is what happens to you, generally when you've made other plans, so we need to embrace what happens to us and find God in it.
It seemed as though Advent had arrived a week early as today's reading, Philippians 2: 5-11, led to a talk on the theme of “God came down”. Perhaps we “jumped the gun” as Advent four falls on Christmas Eve when Our Place will not have its usual pattern of services, effectively reducing us to only three Advent Sundays.
It is interesting to speculate what “emptied himself” might mean - exactly which aspects of “God” did Christ leave behind at the incarnation? Our preacher suggested that Jesus needed to remain rooted in The Father through prayer and have a servant spirit while on earth, just as we do today.
Our lives rarely go as planned, and there is much in the world that warrants despair. But we are assured that we should not be afraid, because a new kingdom is here, at work in our midst. And we are invited to participate in that new kingdom “in extraordinary, ordinary ways.”
Luke 1: 5-25
God broke his silence to say He was going to fulfil his promises. He still has promises to keep to us. Have you given up on expecting Jesus to come back? Let's live our lives in the expectation of His return.
(We also started Advent a week early. I'm expecting our church tower to be struck by lightning).
The sheep and the goats.
(No attempt to relate this to the end of time or who shall be saved).
We need to demonstrate our faith in Christ by practical actions:: visiting the sick, supporting those who need help- as if we are doing this for Christ himself. And consider what it means if we neglect to do so.
Feast of Christ the King. A unique Kingdom undoing all accepted understandings of kingship or monarchy. “I was hungry, thirsty, and homeless. Did you give me food, drink, shelter?” (Matt 25:31-46)
Comments
Aye, but I don't pronounce the R in my name so it sounds doubly strange when it's pronounced to the extent it creates an extra syllable.
*chuckle* Over the last 48 years I’ve met many Oz-born 3rd generation people of Vietnamese parentage. To a man ( and woman) they all comment that their grandparents complain that they speak the language of their ancestors with a “hard mouth”.
You ain’t alone…
In my name though, the R is silent (apart from lengthening the a to ah).
This raises an interesting question of conflicting rights and identities doesn't it? How far does my right to define what my name is overrule someone else's right to pronounce words including names according to phonology of their chosen dialect?
I really hate the R being pronounced specifically because (especially if the a is also shortened) it makes it sound like "Carol" which (a) isn't my name and (b) isn't a name associated with the gender I identify as.
I'd go with telling people my name is "Kahl" if that would resolve it.
Well that's the conflict isn't ir? I really, really hate having my name pronounced with a pronounced R. Don't I have any rights about that? Am I even allowed to ask people to pronounce it the way I recognise it?
Ironically I don't actually like my name very much and flinch when I have to say it myself. Somehow hearing it pronounced in a way I don't recognise just makes it ten times worse. I can't explain it.
I don’t particularly like the standard American pronunciation, mainly I’m sure simply because it’s not how I say my name, so it doesn’t quite feel like “me.” But I decided a long time ago that life is too short to worry about how anyone says my name or to correct people if they get it wrong. The exceptions have been when I got married—I wanted my wife’s family to know how to say my name—or I might say something to close friends who are getting it wrong. And sometimes people will catch how I or my wife say my name and will ask if they’ve been mispronouncing it. Of course, occasionally I meet others who, when I introduce myself, will say something like “oh, you say it correctly!”
As far as that goes, sometimes I’ll mispronounce my name. If I’m making a phone call and a receptionist I’ll likely never talk to again asks my name, life is just a lot easier if I use the standard American pronunciation; that way, I don’t get asked to repeat my name or spell it.
So based on my experience, @KarlLB, I’d say you can ask, but you might not get very far by asking, especially if what you’re asking is in essence that someone who normally speaks with a rhotic accent speak with a non-rhotic accent when they say your name. But I feel your pain.
I'd get that more if the sounds in question where alien to rhotic accents, but they're not, unless people with rhotic accents insert an R into words such as dhal and pronounce it as Darrel.
As for me (and I'm aware it's a personal choice), I work with people from so many languages and backgrounds that I'll settle for any approximation of my name--and even occasionally for a complete mistake, if it's easier that way (e.g. person is never going to see me again anyway). If I held my Vietnamese friends to pronouncing my IRL name correctly, we'd all be in a world of hurt--for a while there, I had three r's in my name, and a lot of Asian languages can't cope with American r's.
Back to sermons, today's theme was World Mission Sunday, 'Hearts on fire; feet on the move,' followed by reports from the meeting of Ethiopian and Eritrean Catholic community leaders this last week, and a reminder for volunteers to help refugees and migrants struggling with document renewals.
need to coordinate our hearts with our eyes and our hands. Even if we only have one eye and one hand, we still have two feet to run away from temptation. The Holy Spirit will give us strength.
Our bishop, who has some marvellous things to say, comes from Kerala in south India. I've heard him preach twice; his English is perfect – maybe his first language, I don't know – but the intonation takes some getting used to. I had to struggle to concentrate. No doubt I my ears will get acclimatised, and I have the same problem with Glaswegian and even more with Northern Irish. But it illustrates the richness and variety of the English language.
I used to work with two people called Craig. One of them was "Kregg" and one of them was "Krayg". They got called the "wrong" version only slightly less than half the time.
I'm actually reminded of my childhood French lessons, where we were all expected to introduce ourselves as Jacques, or Guillaume, or Jean, or Philippe, or whatever the French equivalent of our names was. I always used to think "that's not my name".
The former, Baron Powell of Bayswater, was an advisor to Margaret Thatcher when she was PM, and pronounces his surname as the traditional upper-class "Pole". The latter served as chief of staff to Tony Blair when he was PM, and pronounces his surname with two syllables, to rhyme with "trowel".
They're brothers, and have the same name, but choose different pronunciations.
We all view divorce through different lenses: culture, experience, feelings, questions. Divorce wasn't a command but a concession. Questions on divorce should always be answered by talking about marriage and reconciliation before divorce. It is always regrettable, sometimes permitted. We need not to make marriage an idol.
Compared with the very real persecution that Christians in some countries face, we are likely to receive much milder opposition when speaking about our faith but are still often reluctant to do so. Our minister suggested that the passage indicates five ways to deal with this:
Stick together
Pray
Read scripture
Seek the Spirit's guidance
Speak / act boldly
God is the God of truthfulness: The Devil is the Father of Lies. The two of them are battling it out over what we say. But we know that God will win out. Learn to rely on the promises of God and act them out.
The Lectionary readings were all about the fate that awaits corrupt and hypocritical religious leaders, so wisely they were not touched on.
Family - a forest of hands
Doctors - a pretty good showing
Politicians - couldn't see any hands from where I was sitting
My dog - received more votes than politicians!
The meat of the talk was the need to trust Jesus by repenting and following him
Our lesson was about Elijah vs the prophets of Baal--where the challenge was for the prophets of Baal to get their god(s) to ignite an offering. Pastor discussed the types of gods control our lives today, in particular, the need for security, the economy, and the Military-Industrial Complex. Those gods demand much. Our God only asks that we walk in humility, concern for the other, and work for justice.
Quite. There was a very interesting thread in Kerygmania recently on that very subject.
Jesus commands us not to fight back against evil people and break the cycle of revenge. We should leave justice and revenge to the civil authorities and God. Systematic evil exists, but it isn't our place to deal with it (I might have misunderstood this bit - I certainly hope I did).
The theme of the talk was "every member ministry". We all have unique personalities, skills and gifts, and were invited to reflect on how we might use these to serve both our church and (perhaps more importantly) the wider community.
This is another hard saying of Jesus. These have been given to help us to grow. What is required is not wisdom, but rather softness of heart. We prayed for that.
Pronouncing it without the additional -es syllable sounds wrong to me.
It is interesting to speculate what “emptied himself” might mean - exactly which aspects of “God” did Christ leave behind at the incarnation? Our preacher suggested that Jesus needed to remain rooted in The Father through prayer and have a servant spirit while on earth, just as we do today.
God broke his silence to say He was going to fulfil his promises. He still has promises to keep to us. Have you given up on expecting Jesus to come back? Let's live our lives in the expectation of His return.
(We also started Advent a week early. I'm expecting our church tower to be struck by lightning).
(No attempt to relate this to the end of time or who shall be saved).
We need to demonstrate our faith in Christ by practical actions:: visiting the sick, supporting those who need help- as if we are doing this for Christ himself. And consider what it means if we neglect to do so.