How is what Douglas Murray says in the UK relevant to a Brazilian-born soccer player in the US giving the Nazi salute? How is that "perspective?"
The perspective remark was in reference to the statements by Netanyahu, members of his cabinet, and members of the parties in government, many of which have called for ethnic cleansing and genocide. They are obviously a little bit closer to the levers of power than a former pro-soccer player.
Murray was referenced as an example to there being bigots taking both points of view -- observing that only one set of bigots is ever mainstreamed.
Yes, this is asymmetrical in a number of ways. Here's another: the hard Christian right in the US will go after the Muslims before they get around to the Jews.
Here in South Africa, the government has expressed support for the Palestinians and last week withdrew its diplomats from Israel. There is considerable pressure amid rallies and protest marches for the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador.
South African Jews for Free Palestine (SAJFP) have joined marches and called for a ceasefire in Gaza. There is, however,, growing concern about a rise in antisemitism.
Today's event in London has attracted (so the police say) about 300000* pro-Palestine marchers, and it seems to have passed off peacefully, although a few anti-semitic incidents have (perhaps inevitably) occurred.
AFAICT, the majority of those on the streets - and there were not a few Jews among them - are calling for an immediate ceasefire.
(*that may be a conservative estimate - organisers say there may be 800000 to 1 million...)
Attended a huge (estimated 200 000 people) march held in central Cape Town yesterday in solidarity with Palestinians, addressed by Fr Michael Weeder, Dean of St George's Cathedral in Cape Town. Intense feelings among marchers, most from the Muslim community, but peaceful and disciplined.
From what I could read, I was given to wonder whether we need to consider that just as there are anti-Semitic tropes, so there are also anti-Palestinian ones. For example, the oft repeated view that "Palestinians don't exist", usually accompanied with a load of questions about who Palestine's head of state was, where its capital city was and so on, attempting to hide the fact that there were people living in what is now Israel who are now displaced behind specific concepts of a nation state.
I've even seen claims recently that the concept of Palestine is inherently anti-Semitic because the Romans called the region that after the Philistines, traditional enemies of the Jews.
But I was only yesterday considering Terry Pratchett's suggestion that our species name ought to be Pan narrans - the ape who tells stories. Because that's what this is about - Israel tells one story, the Palestinians tell another. Both are based on historical events and can point to verifiable facts but tell different stories about them and emphasise different events; amongst other things, Israelis will point to Palestinian rejection of a two-state solution in the 1940s; Palestinians will point to the Nakba. The conflict is less about history and more about the stories told of that history.
Which perhaps brings us back to "own voices". Unless we hear the stories the people involved tell, we can't properly understand the conflict.
Meanwhile, some anti-semitic incidents at yesterday's rally in London but what violence occurred came from far right protestors near the Cenotaph.
Around 1,000 Jewish people are said to have taken part in the pro-Palestinian rally, the largest apparently in any similar demo so far.
At the same time, I noticed that some Jewish commentators on BBC Radio 4's religious news and analysis programme this morning drew attention to what they felt was an asymmetrical element insofar that there aren't big rallies about conflicts elsewhere.
All the Jewish voices on the programme did differentiate between being pro-Palestine and anti-Semitism and acknowledged that people have a right to demonstrate. Nevertheless, they did voice concern about anti-Semitic imagery and slogans as well as defending the pro-Palestine protestors right to demonstrate. They also acknowledged that the violence came from the far right thugs but maintained that there were antisemitic elements on the other side.
The pro-Palestinian representatives acknowledged that too, to some extent but objected to some of the terminology used, which they felt was disingenuous - such as the term 'counter protestors' applied to the English Defence League thugs.
That all sounds fairly balanced to me and the discussions were civilised.
I'm prepared to accept that there are hot-heads and nasty elements on the pro-Palestinian side but Suella Braverman's made things a lot worse. I doubt if the EDL would have been out in any great force if she hadn't added fuel to their fire.
It's interesting but some reports say the police weren't expecting much far right protest as they thought these were idle threats. I have to say, I do have a lot of sympathy with the Met over these issues. Whatever they decide to do they are going to come in for some stick. Sure, I know of instances of heavy handed policing at demos in times past but they seem to be handling these as well as they can.
I think generally speaking there aren't big rallies about conflicts elsewhere because our resident countries aren't actively supporting the side that would- be protesters would protest against. A demo in London would be unlikely to change minds in Jerusalem, but it may create awareness and change minds in Westminster.
When our countries were directly involved in conflicts those who felt our actions were unjustified did indeed protest - the Afghanistan war was, if memory serves, when the Stop the War coalition was formed.
It's interesting but some reports say the police weren't expecting much far right protest as they thought these were idle threats. I have to say, I do have a lot of sympathy with the Met over these issues. Whatever they decide to do they are going to come in for some stick. Sure, I know of instances of heavy handed policing at demos in times past but they seem to be handling these as well as they can.
The police coped well. Tommy Robinson's outfit went on a visit to Chinatown, which must have been scary for anyone else there. I'm really glad I wasn't in London yesterday as I'm often in Chinatown at some point.
Israelis will point to Palestinian rejection of a two-state solution in the 1940s; Palestinians will point to the Nakba.
Although from the Palestinians point of view their fears were justified, thanks to the work of the New Historians we now know that they were largely coerced out rather than moving of their own volition.
I thought this https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/13/germany-jewish-criticise-israel-tv-debate
was pretty interesting, an insight from a Jewish German-American dual national about the stranglehold "official", state-funded Jewish organisations have over discussion of Israel in Germany, and the resulting veneer of ardent support for Israel covering up some pretty anti-semitic attitudes among parts of the German government.
But I was only yesterday considering Terry Pratchett's suggestion that our species name ought to be Pan narrans - the ape who tells stories.
@KarlLB, I've always had a deep admiration for the guy, but this is something I've thought for years. I though maybe it was just my own studies (religion and politics) that made me think so, but it's a profound truth.
Even when we're trying to be empirical, we use stories to organize the information. And yeah, says a lot about this conflict. Woof.
I don't know who's harebrained idea it is bringing Blair into this mess, like a pound shop Paddy Ashdown. Why the fuck would any Palestinian, any Arab, any Muslim, anyone with an ounce of humanity, trust that murderous fucker?
I don't know who's harebrained idea it is bringing Blair into this mess, like a pound shop Paddy Ashdown. Why the fuck would any Palestinian, any Arab, any Muslim, anyone with an ounce of humanity, trust that murderous fucker?
Apart from anything else he's one of the trustees of the JNF which funds settlement building, so he's not going to be seen in any way impartial.
I don't know who's harebrained idea it is bringing Blair into this mess, like a pound shop Paddy Ashdown. Why the fuck would any Palestinian, any Arab, any Muslim, anyone with an ounce of humanity, trust that murderous fucker?
Apart from anything else he's one of the trustees of the JNF which funds settlement building, so he's not going to be seen in any way impartial.
Oh FFS. The arrogant stupidity really has no limit, does it?
Are they trying to tell us that every adult male in Gaza is a terrorist?
No, they’re trying to tell us that every Palestinian in Gaza is a terrorist. For them this is a Book-of-Joshua-style destruction of those who would have the temerity to already be living in the land that The Lord has given to His People.
Are they trying to tell us that every adult male in Gaza is a terrorist?
The IDF give different figures.
Are you able to provide a reference for those different figures?
If fewer people have been killed than Hamas claims, then Israel's claim that it has killed "thousands" of Hamas fighters looks even worse in terms of implying that so many adult male Palestinians are terrorists.
Are they trying to tell us that every adult male in Gaza is a terrorist?
The IDF give different figures.
Are you able to provide a reference for those different figures?
If fewer people have been killed than Hamas claims, then Israel's claim that it has killed "thousands" of Hamas fighters looks even worse in terms of implying that so many adult male Palestinians are terrorists.
Indeed.
Granted, it's hard to know just how accurate any figures are...
Generally figures in previous incursions into Gaza have been accurate within a few percentage points, and as Israel keeps the population registry for the occupied territories there's very little latitude to make up the numbers (and for the record, lists of names of the dead along with their Israeli issued ID numbers have been issued in previous weeks]
[I should note that the IDF itself has claimed - on occasion - to have killed 20,000 people]
"Meanwhile, more than six in 10 Jewish voters expressed an unfavorable view of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, whose approval ratings in Israel have also fallen since the Hamas attack. Ninety-one percent also said they believe it's possible to be "pro-Israel" while criticizing Israeli government policies."
Here in South Africa, one of the most respected Muslim non-governmental organisations involved in charity work has been the Gift of the Givers, a great help for us in recent floods. This is the largest disaster response and humanitarian relief group of African origin on the continent. Yesterday they announced that the organisation's office head in Gaza, Ahmed Abbasi, has been killed in the ongoing conflict. Abbasi and his brother were killed while returning from morning prayer on Thursday.
Abbasi had worked in Gaza since 2013. He delivered water through desalination plants, distributed food parcels, provided hot meals and upgraded damaged homes.
An interfaith service will be held in his memory at the Anglican St George's Cathedral in Cape Town on Sunday 19 November.
Here in South Africa, one of the most respected Muslim non-governmental organisations involved in charity work has been the Gift of the Givers, a great help for us in recent floods. This is the largest disaster response and humanitarian relief group of African origin on the continent. Yesterday they announced that the organisation's office head in Gaza, Ahmed Abbasi, has been killed in the ongoing conflict. Abbasi and his brother were killed while returning from morning prayer on Thursday.
Abbasi had worked in Gaza since 2013. He delivered water through desalination plants, distributed food parcels, provided hot meals and upgraded damaged homes.
An interfaith service will be held in his memory at the Anglican St George's Cathedral in Cape Town on Sunday 19 November.
@Bullfrog what will be very moving is that the interfaith service will be led by ecumenical Christian leaders, Muslim imams, Jewish rabbis and addressed by pro-Palestinian groups as well as South African Jews for a Free Israel. St George's Cathedral in Cape Town was Desmond Tutu's church and has a long tradition of welcoming those not often welcomed elsewhere -- gender-non-conforming, disabled, divorced, agnostic, many of the city homeless, those battling addiction, refugees, ex-prisoners.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/16/antisemitism-uk-universities-jewish-students
The poor author of the article. I just don't understand how apparently intelligent people can go from "it's wrong that Israel's slaughtering children" to "let's abuse a Jewish person who has given us no reason to believe they support what Israel is doing". Not to say that the abuse would be ok if they were Likudniks, but it would at least make sense. Aside from the obvious harm it does to the innocent Jewish people being harassed there is a secondary effect of giving ammunition to those who are actually pro-genocide and want to paint all opposition as anti-semitic.
@Bullfrog what will be very moving is that the interfaith service will be led by ecumenical Christian leaders, Muslim imams, Jewish rabbis and addressed by pro-Palestinian groups as well as South African Jews for a Free Israel. St George's Cathedral in Cape Town was Desmond Tutu's church and has a long tradition of welcoming those not often welcomed elsewhere -- gender-non-conforming, disabled, divorced, agnostic, many of the city homeless, those battling addiction, refugees, ex-prisoners.
One thought I've had in this is that "apartheid" might be a close analogy to Israel's mistake here, and so it's a fitting comparison. I would have hope that these guys can be appropriate, if there's any way to be appropriate.
Another thought is that no analogy is appropriate. But that does look hopeful, if such a thing can be considered such. Thanks.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/16/antisemitism-uk-universities-jewish-students
The poor author of the article. I just don't understand how apparently intelligent people can go from "it's wrong that Israel's slaughtering children" to "let's abuse a Jewish person who has given us no reason to believe they support what Israel is doing". Not to say that the abuse would be ok if they were Likudniks, but it would at least make sense. Aside from the obvious harm it does to the innocent Jewish people being harassed there is a secondary effect of giving ammunition to those who are actually pro-genocide and want to paint all opposition as anti-semitic.
Something that disgusts is it feels like any attempt to humanize one side or the other can feel weaponized. Like you can't talk about the suffering of one side or the other without feeling roped into saying you have to fully endorse what's going on from one side or the other.
Nobody should go through this. Nobody wins the misery Olympics.
I'd be tempted to argue that "Free Palestine" was a political slogan, and it would be easy to read the use of such a slogan as support for the terrorism that Hamas is employing in aid of that same goal. It is, of course, perfectly possible to support a free and democratic Palestine and oppose the terrorist methods of Hamas, but that's a difficult distinction to encode on a t-shirt.
So I think a "Free Palestine" t-shirt is not quite in the same category as just having visible signs of being Jewish. I'd think the equivalent of the "Free Palestine" shirt would be a "Gaza is part of Israel" shirt or something, and wearing such a shirt would come equally close to being a statement in support of the current indiscriminate slaughter being perpetrated by the Israeli army.
I'd be tempted to argue that "Free Palestine" was a political slogan, and it would be easy to read the use of such a slogan as support for the terrorism that Hamas is employing in aid of that same goal.
I think the equivalent would be that, given that Israel uses the Star of David, it is easy to read that star as indicating support for Israel's crimes against humanity.
Not at all equivalent. "Free Palestine" is a political slogan, while the Star of David is a symbol of Judaism, more comparable to the cross of Christianity.
Comments
The perspective remark was in reference to the statements by Netanyahu, members of his cabinet, and members of the parties in government, many of which have called for ethnic cleansing and genocide. They are obviously a little bit closer to the levers of power than a former pro-soccer player.
Murray was referenced as an example to there being bigots taking both points of view -- observing that only one set of bigots is ever mainstreamed.
South African Jews for Free Palestine (SAJFP) have joined marches and called for a ceasefire in Gaza. There is, however,, growing concern about a rise in antisemitism.
AFAICT, the majority of those on the streets - and there were not a few Jews among them - are calling for an immediate ceasefire.
(*that may be a conservative estimate - organisers say there may be 800000 to 1 million...)
Paywalled unfortunately.
From what I could read, I was given to wonder whether we need to consider that just as there are anti-Semitic tropes, so there are also anti-Palestinian ones. For example, the oft repeated view that "Palestinians don't exist", usually accompanied with a load of questions about who Palestine's head of state was, where its capital city was and so on, attempting to hide the fact that there were people living in what is now Israel who are now displaced behind specific concepts of a nation state.
I've even seen claims recently that the concept of Palestine is inherently anti-Semitic because the Romans called the region that after the Philistines, traditional enemies of the Jews.
But I was only yesterday considering Terry Pratchett's suggestion that our species name ought to be Pan narrans - the ape who tells stories. Because that's what this is about - Israel tells one story, the Palestinians tell another. Both are based on historical events and can point to verifiable facts but tell different stories about them and emphasise different events; amongst other things, Israelis will point to Palestinian rejection of a two-state solution in the 1940s; Palestinians will point to the Nakba. The conflict is less about history and more about the stories told of that history.
Which perhaps brings us back to "own voices". Unless we hear the stories the people involved tell, we can't properly understand the conflict.
Meanwhile, some anti-semitic incidents at yesterday's rally in London but what violence occurred came from far right protestors near the Cenotaph.
Around 1,000 Jewish people are said to have taken part in the pro-Palestinian rally, the largest apparently in any similar demo so far.
At the same time, I noticed that some Jewish commentators on BBC Radio 4's religious news and analysis programme this morning drew attention to what they felt was an asymmetrical element insofar that there aren't big rallies about conflicts elsewhere.
All the Jewish voices on the programme did differentiate between being pro-Palestine and anti-Semitism and acknowledged that people have a right to demonstrate. Nevertheless, they did voice concern about anti-Semitic imagery and slogans as well as defending the pro-Palestine protestors right to demonstrate. They also acknowledged that the violence came from the far right thugs but maintained that there were antisemitic elements on the other side.
The pro-Palestinian representatives acknowledged that too, to some extent but objected to some of the terminology used, which they felt was disingenuous - such as the term 'counter protestors' applied to the English Defence League thugs.
That all sounds fairly balanced to me and the discussions were civilised.
I'm prepared to accept that there are hot-heads and nasty elements on the pro-Palestinian side but Suella Braverman's made things a lot worse. I doubt if the EDL would have been out in any great force if she hadn't added fuel to their fire.
It's interesting but some reports say the police weren't expecting much far right protest as they thought these were idle threats. I have to say, I do have a lot of sympathy with the Met over these issues. Whatever they decide to do they are going to come in for some stick. Sure, I know of instances of heavy handed policing at demos in times past but they seem to be handling these as well as they can.
When our countries were directly involved in conflicts those who felt our actions were unjustified did indeed protest - the Afghanistan war was, if memory serves, when the Stop the War coalition was formed.
The police coped well. Tommy Robinson's outfit went on a visit to Chinatown, which must have been scary for anyone else there. I'm really glad I wasn't in London yesterday as I'm often in Chinatown at some point.
Try this maybe? https://archive.is/AxPBx
Although from the Palestinians point of view their fears were justified, thanks to the work of the New Historians we now know that they were largely coerced out rather than moving of their own volition.
was pretty interesting, an insight from a Jewish German-American dual national about the stranglehold "official", state-funded Jewish organisations have over discussion of Israel in Germany, and the resulting veneer of ardent support for Israel covering up some pretty anti-semitic attitudes among parts of the German government.
Even when we're trying to be empirical, we use stories to organize the information. And yeah, says a lot about this conflict. Woof.
Apart from anything else he's one of the trustees of the JNF which funds settlement building, so he's not going to be seen in any way impartial.
Oh FFS. The arrogant stupidity really has no limit, does it?
11,000 dead. Half are children. Another quarter are women. That leaves just over 2,500
The IDF claims that "thousands" of Hamas fighters have been killed. (https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-7-2023-6e1425d218de6a73f8a51e4c036cfd39)
Are they trying to tell us that every adult male in Gaza is a terrorist?
Yes, very likely. And any male over 10, and most of the women too.
No, they’re trying to tell us that every Palestinian in Gaza is a terrorist. For them this is a Book-of-Joshua-style destruction of those who would have the temerity to already be living in the land that The Lord has given to His People.
A songwriter (Josh Ritter) wrote a tune about this inspired by the second Iraq War: Feels like one of those situations. It wasn't right when America did it, and I don't think it's right here either.
Here's a link to the full song, which is well worth a listen.
Which have been accurate in the past as they're based on IDing specific individuals from Gaza's population register.
Are you able to provide a reference for those different figures?
If fewer people have been killed than Hamas claims, then Israel's claim that it has killed "thousands" of Hamas fighters looks even worse in terms of implying that so many adult male Palestinians are terrorists.
Indeed.
Granted, it's hard to know just how accurate any figures are...
Is there a reason to think that IDF is more objective?
No. All I am saying is that there are no reliable figures.
The figures would have to be very different indeed for my point not to stand.
What makes you think the figures released by Gaza's health ministry are unreliable now when they've been reliable in the past?
As Daniel Levy states in his interview with Christiane Amanpour there is no reason for suggesting these figures are inaccurate https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1724713374485819626
Generally figures in previous incursions into Gaza have been accurate within a few percentage points, and as Israel keeps the population registry for the occupied territories there's very little latitude to make up the numbers (and for the record, lists of names of the dead along with their Israeli issued ID numbers have been issued in previous weeks]
[I should note that the IDF itself has claimed - on occasion - to have killed 20,000 people]
Indeed they would.
I'm not quite sure what point @Telford is trying to make.
[emphasis mine]
I think this might be as close as I can get to "own voice" on American Jewish folks, and it makes sense to my experience.
Doublethink, Temporary Epiphanies Hosting
Abbasi had worked in Gaza since 2013. He delivered water through desalination plants, distributed food parcels, provided hot meals and upgraded damaged homes.
An interfaith service will be held in his memory at the Anglican St George's Cathedral in Cape Town on Sunday 19 November.
Damn. Sad to see that.
The poor author of the article.
One thought I've had in this is that "apartheid" might be a close analogy to Israel's mistake here, and so it's a fitting comparison. I would have hope that these guys can be appropriate, if there's any way to be appropriate.
Another thought is that no analogy is appropriate. But that does look hopeful, if such a thing can be considered such. Thanks.
And then I just see this today from a Palestinian American. "Her 11-year-old daughter feels the same way. Lately, Salma hasn’t been wearing her favorite “Free Palestine” shirt around her sixth-grade classmates. She knows it would invite questions, and she doesn’t want to talk about it. And while Judeh wants her youngest daughter to be proud of her Palestinian heritage, she doesn’t want her to be targeted."
Something that disgusts is it feels like any attempt to humanize one side or the other can feel weaponized. Like you can't talk about the suffering of one side or the other without feeling roped into saying you have to fully endorse what's going on from one side or the other.
Nobody should go through this. Nobody wins the misery Olympics.
So I think a "Free Palestine" t-shirt is not quite in the same category as just having visible signs of being Jewish. I'd think the equivalent of the "Free Palestine" shirt would be a "Gaza is part of Israel" shirt or something, and wearing such a shirt would come equally close to being a statement in support of the current indiscriminate slaughter being perpetrated by the Israeli army.
I think the equivalent would be that, given that Israel uses the Star of David, it is easy to read that star as indicating support for Israel's crimes against humanity.