Going back to the OP, the church Brierley mentions has fairly high 'production' values - on par with a scaled down cathedral service - which in an age of 'authentic experience' also don't have a problem filling their seats. I'm sure a lot of them do very good work, but not sure it adds up to broad appeal.
And of course the vast majority of churches - whether in the "choral evensong" or "full-on charismatic" traditions or anything in-between - can never aspire to these values. Will we therefore end up with just a few such churches, with all others withering away? One hopes not!
It’s a long journey back to both credibility and generous kindness, Gamaliel.
Taking an example from J S Bach, one of the revolutionary things about St John Passion was that it was written in German (not Latin) so the congregations and audiences could understand it in their own tongue. Gareth Malone decided to follow Bach by using the English translation. And I know musical buffs well enough to know that that decision will have offended some purists!
Thinking about values again, In the 100 best church jokes there is one between a new Bishop and a church warden of 40 years duration in one of his parishes.
Bishop; That’s a long time. I suppose you’ve seen many changes?
Church Warden; Oh yes, and I’m proud to say I resisted every single one of them.
Ha ha ...
Like the one about how many Orthodox it takes to change a light-bulb.
'Change? Change?!'
I'm all for credibility and generous kindness and I think we've all fallen short on those.
I know Orthodox clergy who blame Calvin. Or Anselm.
On the other hand, many Protestants would blame Constantine.
As far as 'credibility' goes, when we gain credibility with some people, we lose it with others.
Whatever our views on churches celebrating marriages in the case of 'irregular relationships' not everyone's going to agree with whatever position we take.
Sorry to double-post ... and musicologists will correct me if I'm wrong, but I was of the impression that it was the musical arrangements that the congregation in Leipzig would have found innovative - not the fact that the words were in German. As far as I'm aware the Lutherans had used the vernacular from the get-go.
Intriguingly, some of the instruments the orchestra / worship-band used were out-of-date in Bach's time. In fact, much of Bach's music was quite old-fashioned for his time, but what he did was introduce innovative arrangements.
Shipmates who are more knowledgeable than I am can enlighten us.
There had been other Lutheran Passions, including one by Handel. All with reflective arias and hymns for the congregation to join in. Yes in German since Luther. What marks out Bach's two is the supreme quality of the music. He put in every technique he knew (he was probably musics greatest ever technician) and produced works of profound spirituality and musicality. Just two examples of his skill ..... when the chorus sings "Crucify him" the music forms a cross on his manuscript page, then when the veil of the Temple is torn from top to bottom, it is described in a very fast downward scale that contains the same number of notes as the Laws Jews of his time were 3xp3cted to observe. I was lucky to spend a term analysing the St Matthew Passion as a part of my B.Mus. it is an awesome monument to what the mind can achieve.
Good points, Gamma and Alan. But back on the theme, Bach was interested in accessible communication to the folks of his time. Without that awareness the church will definitely go into exile. Out of touch? Irrelevant?
The irony is (and you get some of this with Shakespeare too) is that there are folks who want acccess to great writers of the past to be dependent on membership of an elite. As if this somehow protects the wonder of the composition from being soiled by “ordinary people”.
And I do wonder if there is some of that going on in the church. Let’s preserve the mystery. It’s weird really. The NT Greek was very much the language of ordinary conversation. And the medieval mystery plays were anything but mysterious!
Re Methodism. That makes me very sad. And I don’t know the particular ins and outs of the decline to comment further.
As with the declension of any movement the comments/answers are going to reflect the predelictions of the commentators themselves.
Some would say Methodism became too liberal, others would claim it didn't become liberal enough.
I flirted with Methodism briefly at university, soon after my conversion. I wanted to explore something that wasn't the nominal Anglicanism of my childhood.
I found it pretty beige and can understand why, after some fence-sitting (sound familiar?) I veered off into the ostensibly more exciting charismatic evangelical scene (with reservations).
I have revised my opinion of Methodism since and have always found my interactions with Methodists very positive. Sadly, they are an endangered species.
Here in the UK. Not elsewhere.
As for points made by @chrisstiles and @Baptist Trainfan about a polarity between full-on happy-clappy - or more generally 'charismatic-lite' these days - and high-production value choral evensong ...
I think there's something in that but I'm sure there's room for other flavours. Vanilla remains popular.
More seriously, I'm not sure what any of us can do except do whatever we do now with as much sincerity and integrity as we can muster.
As for points made by @chrisstiles and @Baptist Trainfan about a polarity between full-on happy-clappy - or more generally 'charismatic-lite' these days - and high-production value choral evensong ...
I think there's something in that but I'm sure there's room for other flavours. Vanilla remains popular.
I can't speak for anyone else, but this isn't necessarily a distinction I'd make. Rather that outside churches benefitting from transfer growth (be that national or international) many of the surviving ones will be 'professionalised' in some form or the other (you can have high-production charismatic-lite as well as high production vanilla).
As for points made by @chrisstiles and @Baptist Trainfan about a polarity between full-on happy-clappy - or more generally 'charismatic-lite' these days - and high-production value choral evensong ...
I wasn't talking about the polarity, rather that both well-done choral evensong and Hillsong-type services have high production values and are very "professional", in ways which St Agatha's-by-the-Gasworks or Waterworks Street Baptist could never aspire to.
As for points made by @chrisstiles and @Baptist Trainfan about a polarity between full-on happy-clappy - or more generally 'charismatic-lite' these days - and high-production value choral evensong ...
I wasn't talking about the polarity, rather that both well-done choral evensong and Hillsong-type services have high production values and are very "professional", in ways which St Agatha's-by-the-Gasworks or Waterworks Street Baptist could never aspire to.
True. We at St Faithful-in-the-Backstreets are conscious of this, but we do try to do our best...
So do we. And there is definitely something attractive about "authenticity" - but not about can't-really-be-bothered sloppiness.
That is certainly true, and is what Blessed Percy was getting at. His famous The Parson's Handbook is out-of-date in many ways, but still contains some very sound advice (and he knew whereof he spoke).
One of Our Place's neighbours has gone down the candle somewhat lately, which is not in itself necessarily a bad thing, although the tradition in the past has been MOTR to High. They livestream their Sunday service, but it's painful to watch/listen to, because of the awful (IMHO) music/worship songs. I hesitate to criticise, as two elderly ladies are surely doing their best, but the result is, sadly, dire.
Good points, Gamma and Alan. But back on the theme, Bach was interested in accessible communication to the folks of his time. Without that awareness the church will definitely go into exile. Out of touch? Irrelevant?
The irony is (and you get some of this with Shakespeare too) is that there are folks who want acccess to great writers of the past to be dependent on membership of an elite. As if this somehow protects the wonder of the composition from being soiled by “ordinary people”.
And I do wonder if there is some of that going on in the church. Let’s preserve the mystery. It’s weird really. The NT Greek was very much the language of ordinary conversation. And the medieval mystery plays were anything but mysterious!
Bach was seen as too obscure by his own congregation.
Bach was seen as too obscure by his own congregation.
Well, that’s telling me, Alan! I’ve checked some sources and it does seem that there were dissident voices in Leipzig. In contrast to the admiration for his work elsewhere. A prophet without honour in his own locality? At least among some.
He does seem however to have been appreciated for his sublime keyboard skills on clavier and organ. But unlike many, his reputation as a composer has grown significantly since his death and remains very very high today.
I’m still pretty sure that his intention, like many great artists and composers, was to express himself and communicate well.
Apologies for the tangent. Like Gamaliel’s late wife, I am an aficionado.
Bach was seen as too obscure by his own congregation.
Well, that’s telling me, Alan! I’ve checked some sources and it does seem that there were dissident voices in Leipzig. In contrast to the admiration for his work elsewhere. A prophet without honour in his own locality? At least among some.
This is a not uncommon thread in literature covering the reception of composers of that era; you were employed by the local ruler and wanted to use all the skills you had been taught, but the average member of the pulpit would have preferred you to compose more in tune with the folk music of the time [not to mention that there were basic logistical challenges to repeatedly performing many pieces even in a place like Leipzig]
As for points made by @chrisstiles and @Baptist Trainfan about a polarity between full-on happy-clappy - or more generally 'charismatic-lite' these days - and high-production value choral evensong ...
I wasn't talking about the polarity, rather that both well-done choral evensong and Hillsong-type services have high production values and are very "professional", in ways which St Agatha's-by-the-Gasworks or Waterworks Street Baptist could never aspire to.
Sure, I get that. And also @chrisstiles points. I think there's an issue right across the board here.
I've seen some high-ish Anglican parishes trying to replicate cathedral style worship with three old ladies and a dog when they'd be better off pitching things more appropriately for their resources.
Or 40 people in a room trying to recreate the atmosphere of a New Wine rally or cast of thousands US-style megachurch.
But to return to the OP, yes I understand that St Helen's Bishopsgate does liturgy well and has the resources to put on a good show. Good for them. But your average Anglican parish or struggling non-conformist church aren't going to be able to do likewise.
Bach was seen as too obscure by his own congregation.
Well, that’s telling me, Alan! I’ve checked some sources and it does seem that there were dissident voices in Leipzig. In contrast to the admiration for his work elsewhere. A prophet without honour in his own locality? At least among some.
This is a not uncommon thread in literature covering the reception of composers of that era; you were employed by the local ruler and wanted to use all the skills you had been taught, but the average member of the pulpit would have preferred you to compose more in tune with the folk music of the time [not to mention that there were basic logistical challenges to repeatedly performing many pieces even in a place like Leipzig]
One of Bachs sons said this about performances at Leipzig, "They went badly and we got beaten."
I suppose the verdict of history and the present is that St John’s Passion is a pearl of great price. Not to say that the folks of Leipzig were swine!
Seems likely that Bach’s creative imagination went beyond the limited resources available! And in accordance with the thread, that’s a revival issue. Local churches do have limited resources and trying to create festival-like experiences are not likely to be successful.
Steve Gaukroger, a one time leader of the Baptist Union, and a very down to earth man, observed this pithily at a Spring Harvest event I attended a number of years ago.
“You do realise that when you return to your local church, those who haven’t been here will recognise ‘the glaze’. They know it’ll wear off in a couple of weeks.
So don’t tell them ‘we’ve been to the mountain’. Nonsense. You’ve been to Butlins”.
I suspect that kind of honesty is more likely to aid any form of revival than a kind of glitzy glamour approach to acceptability. Honesty and vulnerability are a lot more real.
“You do realise that when you return to your local church, those who haven’t been here will recognise ‘the glaze’. They know it’ll wear off in a couple of weeks.
So don’t tell them ‘we’ve been to the mountain’. Nonsense. You’ve been to Butlins”.
It’s a bit more complicated than that. Creative people can be challenging, sometimes in a good way, sometimes not so much. A college leader of a training college for church ministers observed this way at a celebration service for a new minister.
“Here are the seven last words of any local church community.
We’ve never done it this way before.”
Jesus was immensely critical of status quo self righteous leadership.
Resistance to change may be about the preservation of essentials I suppose. Provided that the essentials include justice. mercy and humility.
There’s a very fine statue of Bach in Leipzig and a regular anniversary performance of St John Passion. Maybe they got it in the end? I doubt whether it’s just for the tourists.
There’s a very fine statue of Bach in Leipzig and a regular anniversary performance of St John Passion. Maybe they got it in the end? I doubt whether it’s just for the tourists.
It took 400 years to go from 'We've never done it this way before' to 'We've always done it this way'.
There’s a very fine statue of Bach in Leipzig and a regular anniversary performance of St John Passion. Maybe they got it in the end? I doubt whether it’s just for the tourists.
It took 400 years to go from 'We've never done it this way before' to 'We've always done it this way'.
Which is remarkably long in church terms. Usually it's something like:
Year 1: we've never done it this way before.
Year 3: this is what we usually do.
Year 5: we've always done it this way (I got this one from the vicar of a previous church when I suggested we sing the gloria, sanctus, agnus dei etc and she claimed it had never been part of that church's tradition, only to be told by others after the meeting that it had been... up until the vicar arrived. I suspect the main issue was that the vicar was not a confident singer herself)
Year 7: it's traditional
Year 10 (new vicar): we've never done it this way before [except prior to year 1]
I think the regular anniversaries started in the early to mid 19th century. Mendelssohn was a prime mover in the rediscovery and increased awareness of Bach’s work. He stimulated some performances in Leipzig prior to the setting up of the anniversary cycle.
There were sporadic further performances in Leipzig in the 18th century, until Bach’s death. Evidence that they weren’t completely beyond the comprehension of at least some of the locals.
I suppose they were a “slow burn”. I’m just very glad the flame never went out, and still burns brightly today.
@Barnabas62 - I've not met Peter Brierley but remember his annual stats. I've heard other people say the same. I can see why they say that. But I don't see masses of people queuing up to join the Church in Wales or the Scottish Episcopal Church since they agreed to conduct same-sex weddings.
Nor do I see people queueing round the block to join the Quakers who were the first religious group to accept 'irregular relationships.'
This is a response I often hear, but I think reality is more complicated.
If people have been rejected by the church—any church, probably, but certainly the established or dominant church—how likely are they to try other churches? Some will, perhaps, but I suspect the majority will just say “church doesn’t want anything to do with me, so I don’t want anything to do with church.” They’re not likely to read the fine print, and they’re not likely to trust that other churches will accept them, at least not at first.
I think the answer to “I don’t see people lining up to join the churches to will marry same-sex couples” may well be “that’s because the church as whole has done too much damage to too many people, for which there are no quick and easy fixes.”
Which is remarkably long in church terms. Usually it's something like:
Year 1: we've never done it this way before.
Year 3: this is what we usually do.
Year 5: we've always done it this way (I got this one from the vicar of a previous church when I suggested we sing the gloria, sanctus, agnus dei etc and she claimed it had never been part of that church's tradition, only to be told by others after the meeting that it had been... up until the vicar arrived. I suspect the main issue was that the vicar was not a confident singer herself)
Year 7: it's traditional
Year 10 (new vicar): we've never done it this way before [except prior to year 1]
Possibly. Although when the first wave of West Indian migrants arrived in the UK and were greeted with racism in the Anglican and Methodist churches to which they initially turned, it led to an upsurge in black-led Pentecostal and Holiness churches.
Three generations on, some of those churches are struggling, the same as 'indigenous' churches are. Greek Cypriot churches sprang up all over London after the Turkish invasion. Several decades on they are struggling to retain their young people, same as all the other churches.
I'm not 'taking sides' as it were on Epiphanous issues, simply saying that in and of itself the celebrating of marriages in cases of 'irregular relationships' isn't going to stem the decline in church attendance and affiliation.
I'm the one who is saying that the reality is more complicated. 😉
Although it's not as if independent black-led churches nor the Orthodox have been any more open to accepting same-sex marriages than 'this Church of England by law established.'
Back to Bach ... ha ha ha ... I'm a big aficionado too @Barnabas62 although I have to force myself through a pain barrier when I listen to his music as the grief is still so intense. I have to grasp the nettle every time.
@chrisstiles - ah, yes, silly me. I must have been thinking of St Helen's Bishopgate for some other reason but I can't think what that might have been.
I'm not 'taking sides' as it were on Epiphanous issues, simply saying that in and of itself the celebrating of marriages in cases of 'irregular relationships' isn't going to stem the decline in church attendance and affiliation.
I don’t think many have claimed it would, beyond the occasional person ignoring the bigger context, or except to the extent that comments like “I don’t see people lining up to join the churches to will marry same-sex couples” suggest an assumption by those who take a traditional view that those who have departed from that traditional view think that they’ll reverse the tide by doing so.
Ok. Fair enough. I s'pose I was thinking aloud - thinking allowed - on this one. I think you are right insofar that the initial knee-jerk assumption people have - whether over same-sex marriage or 'irregular relationships' of whatever kind - involving marriage or otherwise - is that Christians and churches are going to wag the finger and sit in judgement.
Heck, some of the 'chapel' people back home in South Wales were tutting and gossiping about 'our Mam' when she came home from Australia with us two boys (we were '£10 Poms') even though it was my Dad who'd been cheating and philandering.
The Anglicans weren't.
The non-conformists were.
As far as The Quakers go, I'm always surprised they don't attract more attention and adherents given that many of their values correspond to the 'zeitgeist' - mindfulness-style spirituality, a refusal to be hidebound by creedal formularies etc. Perhaps people tar them with the same brush as they do other faith communities.
Incidentally, I've heard that the late Metropolitan Kallistos Ware expressed more liberal views on these matters than one might expect. But then, I also heard him state that he thought female ordination in the Anglican Communion had been a big mistake. He seemed quite open to that at one time. He didn't say why he'd changed his mind.
Anyhow, @Gracious Rebel started a thread recently about whether her URC/Baptist church would become a magnet for otherwise unchurched same-sex couples now it'd voted to conduct same-sex weddings. I think the consensus was that it wouldn't. So yes, you are right to state that those individuals and churches which conduct same-sex weddings aren't expecting it to change attitudes over night.
Solemnisation of marriage (and legal authorisation) both seem to be on the decline. Apparently members of faith communities (not just Christian) still marry more and divorce less than those of no faith.
I think belief in the value of lifelong commitment has been on the decline for some time. I’m not sure a new emphasis on the positive value of marriage will be a factor in any revival.
I’m more inclined to believe that positive affirmation of irregular relationships is fairer and better. Neither solemnisation nor legalisation are any guarantee that couples will make the difficult journey from falling in love to loving. Neither does an optimistic belief that “we don’t need a piece of paper”. People change. Love evolves or dies. Both society and the church would I think do better in helping folks to understand the pitfalls of that journey.
We celebrate 56 years together in a couple of months, and have been very fortunate to have found the journey to be mutually enriching. But we’re the last people to point the finger at folks whose experiences have been very different.
First, Brierley is almost certainly not the same as the stats man, that was my initial thought so I did some googling. This Brierley is someone who makes his stance on refuting the New Atheists.
Secondly, it is not pure anecdote, I first heard of this at a University Chaplains conference about eighteen months ago
Thirdly, it is confined to "Central London" Churches. I am calling them "Central London" because the phenomena was first noted in the capital. It tends to be places which have hyper-diversity and transcient population.
Fourthly, I am quite sure that it is not only a Evangelical phenomena.
Fifthly, I agree 'revival' is the wrong term.
Sixth, this Brierley is over egging the pudding at the moment, see first point for why. Pay no attention to him and see how things are in a decades time. One swallow does not make a summer.
Secondly, it is not pure anecdote, I first heard of this at a University Chaplains conference about eighteen months ago
Thirdly, it is confined to "Central London" Churches. I am calling them "Central London" because the phenomena was first noted in the capital. It tends to be places which have hyper-diversity and transcient population.
What exactly is the claimed phenomena if you had to describe it ? [Because I agree that the argument in the article is quite confused]
Brierley is almost certainly not the same as the stats man, that was my initial thought so I did some googling. This Brierley is someone who makes his stance on refuting the New Atheists.
Comments
Re Methodism. That makes me very sad. And I don’t know the particular ins and outs of the decline to comment further.
Ha ha ...
Like the one about how many Orthodox it takes to change a light-bulb.
'Change? Change?!'
I'm all for credibility and generous kindness and I think we've all fallen short on those.
I know Orthodox clergy who blame Calvin. Or Anselm.
On the other hand, many Protestants would blame Constantine.
As far as 'credibility' goes, when we gain credibility with some people, we lose it with others.
Whatever our views on churches celebrating marriages in the case of 'irregular relationships' not everyone's going to agree with whatever position we take.
Time will tell, of course.
Intriguingly, some of the instruments the orchestra / worship-band
Shipmates who are more knowledgeable than I am can enlighten us.
The irony is (and you get some of this with Shakespeare too) is that there are folks who want acccess to great writers of the past to be dependent on membership of an elite. As if this somehow protects the wonder of the composition from being soiled by “ordinary people”.
And I do wonder if there is some of that going on in the church. Let’s preserve the mystery. It’s weird really. The NT Greek was very much the language of ordinary conversation. And the medieval mystery plays were anything but mysterious!
As with the declension of any movement the comments/answers are going to reflect the predelictions of the commentators themselves.
Some would say Methodism became too liberal, others would claim it didn't become liberal enough.
I flirted with Methodism briefly at university, soon after my conversion. I wanted to explore something that wasn't the nominal Anglicanism of my childhood.
I found it pretty beige and can understand why, after some fence-sitting (sound familiar?) I veered off into the ostensibly more exciting charismatic evangelical scene (with reservations).
I have revised my opinion of Methodism since and have always found my interactions with Methodists very positive. Sadly, they are an endangered species.
Here in the UK. Not elsewhere.
As for points made by @chrisstiles and @Baptist Trainfan about a polarity between full-on happy-clappy - or more generally 'charismatic-lite' these days - and high-production value choral evensong ...
I think there's something in that but I'm sure there's room for other flavours. Vanilla remains popular.
More seriously, I'm not sure what any of us can do except do whatever we do now with as much sincerity and integrity as we can muster.
I can't speak for anyone else, but this isn't necessarily a distinction I'd make. Rather that outside churches benefitting from transfer growth (be that national or international) many of the surviving ones will be 'professionalised' in some form or the other (you can have high-production charismatic-lite as well as high production vanilla).
True. We at St Faithful-in-the-Backstreets are conscious of this, but we do try to do our best...
That is certainly true, and is what Blessed Percy was getting at. His famous The Parson's Handbook is out-of-date in many ways, but still contains some very sound advice (and he knew whereof he spoke).
One of Our Place's neighbours has gone down the candle somewhat lately, which is not in itself necessarily a bad thing, although the tradition in the past has been MOTR to High. They livestream their Sunday service, but it's painful to watch/listen to, because of the awful (IMHO) music/worship songs. I hesitate to criticise, as two elderly ladies are surely doing their best, but the result is, sadly, dire.
Bach was seen as too obscure by his own congregation.
Well, that’s telling me, Alan! I’ve checked some sources and it does seem that there were dissident voices in Leipzig. In contrast to the admiration for his work elsewhere. A prophet without honour in his own locality? At least among some.
He does seem however to have been appreciated for his sublime keyboard skills on clavier and organ. But unlike many, his reputation as a composer has grown significantly since his death and remains very very high today.
I’m still pretty sure that his intention, like many great artists and composers, was to express himself and communicate well.
Apologies for the tangent. Like Gamaliel’s late wife, I am an aficionado.
This is a not uncommon thread in literature covering the reception of composers of that era; you were employed by the local ruler and wanted to use all the skills you had been taught, but the average member of the pulpit would have preferred you to compose more in tune with the folk music of the time [not to mention that there were basic logistical challenges to repeatedly performing many pieces even in a place like Leipzig]
Sure, I get that. And also @chrisstiles points. I think there's an issue right across the board here.
I've seen some high-ish Anglican parishes trying to replicate cathedral style worship with three old ladies and a dog when they'd be better off pitching things more appropriately for their resources.
Or 40 people in a room trying to recreate the atmosphere of a New Wine rally or cast of thousands US-style megachurch.
But to return to the OP, yes I understand that St Helen's Bishopsgate does liturgy well and has the resources to put on a good show. Good for them. But your average Anglican parish or struggling non-conformist church aren't going to be able to do likewise.
But what they can do, they can do.
One of Bachs sons said this about performances at Leipzig, "They went badly and we got beaten."
I assume you mean St Bartholomew the Great (youtube link passim), you may have had St Helen's in your mind for other reasons.
I suppose the verdict of history and the present is that St John’s Passion is a pearl of great price. Not to say that the folks of Leipzig were swine!
Seems likely that Bach’s creative imagination went beyond the limited resources available! And in accordance with the thread, that’s a revival issue. Local churches do have limited resources and trying to create festival-like experiences are not likely to be successful.
Steve Gaukroger, a one time leader of the Baptist Union, and a very down to earth man, observed this pithily at a Spring Harvest event I attended a number of years ago.
“You do realise that when you return to your local church, those who haven’t been here will recognise ‘the glaze’. They know it’ll wear off in a couple of weeks.
So don’t tell them ‘we’ve been to the mountain’. Nonsense. You’ve been to Butlins”.
I suspect that kind of honesty is more likely to aid any form of revival than a kind of glitzy glamour approach to acceptability. Honesty and vulnerability are a lot more real.
“Here are the seven last words of any local church community.
We’ve never done it this way before.”
Jesus was immensely critical of status quo self righteous leadership.
Resistance to change may be about the preservation of essentials I suppose. Provided that the essentials include justice. mercy and humility.
There’s a very fine statue of Bach in Leipzig and a regular anniversary performance of St John Passion. Maybe they got it in the end? I doubt whether it’s just for the tourists.
It took 400 years to go from 'We've never done it this way before' to 'We've always done it this way'.
Which is remarkably long in church terms. Usually it's something like:
Year 1: we've never done it this way before.
Year 3: this is what we usually do.
Year 5: we've always done it this way (I got this one from the vicar of a previous church when I suggested we sing the gloria, sanctus, agnus dei etc and she claimed it had never been part of that church's tradition, only to be told by others after the meeting that it had been... up until the vicar arrived. I suspect the main issue was that the vicar was not a confident singer herself)
Year 7: it's traditional
Year 10 (new vicar): we've never done it this way before [except prior to year 1]
I think the regular anniversaries started in the early to mid 19th century. Mendelssohn was a prime mover in the rediscovery and increased awareness of Bach’s work. He stimulated some performances in Leipzig prior to the setting up of the anniversary cycle.
There were sporadic further performances in Leipzig in the 18th century, until Bach’s death. Evidence that they weren’t completely beyond the comprehension of at least some of the locals.
I suppose they were a “slow burn”. I’m just very glad the flame never went out, and still burns brightly today.
If people have been rejected by the church—any church, probably, but certainly the established or dominant church—how likely are they to try other churches? Some will, perhaps, but I suspect the majority will just say “church doesn’t want anything to do with me, so I don’t want anything to do with church.” They’re not likely to read the fine print, and they’re not likely to trust that other churches will accept them, at least not at first.
I think the answer to “I don’t see people lining up to join the churches to will marry same-sex couples” may well be “that’s because the church as whole has done too much damage to too many people, for which there are no quick and easy fixes.”
https://cartoonchurch.com/content/cc/tradition/
Three generations on, some of those churches are struggling, the same as 'indigenous' churches are. Greek Cypriot churches sprang up all over London after the Turkish invasion. Several decades on they are struggling to retain their young people, same as all the other churches.
I'm not 'taking sides' as it were on Epiphanous issues, simply saying that in and of itself the celebrating of marriages in cases of 'irregular relationships' isn't going to stem the decline in church attendance and affiliation.
I'm the one who is saying that the reality is more complicated. 😉
Although it's not as if independent black-led churches nor the Orthodox have been any more open to accepting same-sex marriages than 'this Church of England by law established.'
Back to Bach ... ha ha ha ... I'm a big aficionado too @Barnabas62 although I have to force myself through a pain barrier when I listen to his music as the grief is still so intense. I have to grasp the nettle every time.
@chrisstiles - ah, yes, silly me. I must have been thinking of St Helen's Bishopgate for some other reason but I can't think what that might have been.
Brain-fog.
Heck, some of the 'chapel' people back home in South Wales were tutting and gossiping about 'our Mam' when she came home from Australia with us two boys (we were '£10 Poms') even though it was my Dad who'd been cheating and philandering.
The Anglicans weren't.
The non-conformists were.
As far as The Quakers go, I'm always surprised they don't attract more attention and adherents given that many of their values correspond to the 'zeitgeist' - mindfulness-style spirituality, a refusal to be hidebound by creedal formularies etc. Perhaps people tar them with the same brush as they do other faith communities.
Incidentally, I've heard that the late Metropolitan Kallistos Ware expressed more liberal views on these matters than one might expect. But then, I also heard him state that he thought female ordination in the Anglican Communion had been a big mistake. He seemed quite open to that at one time. He didn't say why he'd changed his mind.
Anyhow, @Gracious Rebel started a thread recently about whether her URC/Baptist church would become a magnet for otherwise unchurched same-sex couples now it'd voted to conduct same-sex weddings. I think the consensus was that it wouldn't. So yes, you are right to state that those individuals and churches which conduct same-sex weddings aren't expecting it to change attitudes over night.
Solemnisation of marriage (and legal authorisation) both seem to be on the decline. Apparently members of faith communities (not just Christian) still marry more and divorce less than those of no faith.
I think belief in the value of lifelong commitment has been on the decline for some time. I’m not sure a new emphasis on the positive value of marriage will be a factor in any revival.
I’m more inclined to believe that positive affirmation of irregular relationships is fairer and better. Neither solemnisation nor legalisation are any guarantee that couples will make the difficult journey from falling in love to loving. Neither does an optimistic belief that “we don’t need a piece of paper”. People change. Love evolves or dies. Both society and the church would I think do better in helping folks to understand the pitfalls of that journey.
We celebrate 56 years together in a couple of months, and have been very fortunate to have found the journey to be mutually enriching. But we’re the last people to point the finger at folks whose experiences have been very different.
First, Brierley is almost certainly not the same as the stats man, that was my initial thought so I did some googling. This Brierley is someone who makes his stance on refuting the New Atheists.
Secondly, it is not pure anecdote, I first heard of this at a University Chaplains conference about eighteen months ago
Thirdly, it is confined to "Central London" Churches. I am calling them "Central London" because the phenomena was first noted in the capital. It tends to be places which have hyper-diversity and transcient population.
Fourthly, I am quite sure that it is not only a Evangelical phenomena.
Fifthly, I agree 'revival' is the wrong term.
Sixth, this Brierley is over egging the pudding at the moment, see first point for why. Pay no attention to him and see how things are in a decades time. One swallow does not make a summer.
What exactly is the claimed phenomena if you had to describe it ? [Because I agree that the argument in the article is quite confused]
I agree with @Jengie Jon.
I know of Orthodox parishes which have had an infusion of young men. All are in metropolitan locations with transient populations.
Thinking about it, that generally- but not exclusively- applied to the largest restorationist 'new churches' when they were at their height.
It also applies to groups like Hill Songs which attract young hipsters.