I would say this, wouldn't I, but I still maintain that Ancestral Sin isn't Original Sin by another name, which is how @Martin54 seems to regard it.
As I understand the Orthodox position sin is not intrinsic to our nature, which is how it can be framed in some Western presentations of Ancestral Sin.
Yes, yes, I know that the Reformed tradition isn't as deterministic or as pessimistic about human nature as it is so often portrayed ...
I can't speak for the Lutherans as what little I know of their approach comes from these boards.
Rome seems overly juridical on this as on much else, bless her.
Rome and her daughters can share that tendency.
We don't need to be atheists to reject Original Sin as it has traditionally been framed. Judaism doesn't have a concept of Original Sin and that's a theistic religion last time I looked.
It's how non-O regard it. As a distinction without a difference. I'm sure western barbarians can't see what is plainly there, as in so much of theological imagination.
The tenacity of these conservative inhibitory memes is a remarkable testament to reason being the slave of the passions. To evolution.
Besides, I'm not sure that Wikipedia article nails it. I'm no expert but it seems more nuanced than the article suggests. It sounds a bit bald. But then, these concepts are hard to convey in a short online definition.
Besides, I'm not sure that Wikipedia article nails it. I'm no expert but it seems more nuanced than the article suggests. It sounds a bit bald. But then, these concepts are hard to convey in a short online definition.
It nails it for the non-O. Like filioque and theotokos, men died for those absurd distinctions.
@The_Riv your quotation of the full lyrics of a song upthread risks the Ship falling foul of copyright law. Please provide a brief extract and a link to the full text as I have now done.
Also this
Working hard to be offended, I see.
is getting close to a personal attack. Please desist.
Besides, I'm not sure that Wikipedia article nails it. I'm no expert but it seems more nuanced than the article suggests. It sounds a bit bald. But then, these concepts are hard to convey in a short online definition.
It nails it for the non-O. Like filioque and theotokos, men died for those absurd distinctions.
I stand to be corrected, but I can't recall hearing about anyone being 'martyred' on one side or the other over the 'filioque' or 'theotokos'. Exiled, yes, possibly knocked about or even maimed. Not sure anyone was actually executed over those controversies, but wiser and better informed Shipmates will be able to correct me if I'm wrong.
That isn't to say that there wasn't rancour or aggression. But I suspect there was more to the egregious 'Massacre of the Latins' and the later Sack of Constantinople than disputes over theological niceties.
At any rate, I do find some of your historical musings wide of the mark, @Martin54. That doesn't mean you don't get your arrows broadly within striking distance of the target.
For instance, on one thread you mention Wesley preaching while people were fornicating beneath the wagons. That's anachronistic. Those charges were levelled at US frontier revivalism in the early 1800s, camp-meetings and so on. The US style camp-meeting didn't arrive in the UK within Wesley's lifetime.
55 years ago I read Michener's awesome, superbly researched, The Source (as did Rob Bell about the same age). In it is a description of a Byzantine building site riot where the lethal division of labour was over the filioque as I doubtless falsely recall. Men have died for less. When my last ex was studying everything she could devour through the OU, around the millennium, she read material to me which included descriptions of such activity stirred up when Wesley preached in the fields of England from 1738. So, not musings too wide in these instances.
I alluded to the 'Massacre of the Latins', when Byzantine stall-holders and merchants turned on 'Westerners' who were working and trading in their city. The building site riot you refer to may well have been part of the same appalling incident, or it may have been another equally lamentable occasion. I don't know.
The 'filioque' thing was certainly one of the key features of the Great Schism but it wasn't a 'stand alone' thing - add politics and 'othering' into the toxic mix on both sides.
Laudian 'reforms' provoked a reaction among Puritans most certainly but they weren't the only 'causus belli' of the 17th century Civil Wars on these islands.
Wesley's 'Aldersgate experience' happened in 1738. He began field preaching not long afterwards. If couples had been canoodling during or after his open-air preaching then it would have been in woods or under hedges rather than under wagons, which were a feature of later and more 'organised' revivalist rallies.
Ok, I'm splitting hairs. But I doubt whether the Byzantine mob who went on a murderous rampage against Latin traders, clergy and religious in the 12th century were motivated by theological concerns any more than the Crusaders who looted the city 100 years later. An action which the Pope condemned.
The Assyrians who took to the streets and wrecked 10 police cars and injured several officers following the knife attack on their Bishop in Sydney last week probably weren't thinking about the finer points of episcopal governance.
That's not to defend or excuse any of these incidents.
Aye. It's all very nasty monkey isn't it. At every level. At last the Iranian monkeys and the Israeli monkeys read each other right. Evolution came through again. For now. I keep getting the feeling it's got nothing left for us.
I wonder what Love thinks of it all.
Sometimes I hanker for my old God. The one accurately portrayed in the one seamless cloth of the Bible.
When there is a war on; in which thousands are dying, and formal accusations of genocide are progressing through the courts - ie it is alleged people are basically being killed because others consider them subhuman - maybe, just maybe, the monkey language about cultures of which you are not part is not the wisest and most tasteful rhetorical choice ?
I'm not addressing that extremely nasty monkey activity. As we're not allowed to here. I certainly feel sorry for the cultures I mentioned, victims of history more than ours, both. Which has made them institutionally meaner. Your sensitivity is noted.
If there is a connection between all of this and universalism, it is precisely that universalism has to encompass everything, even unimaginable horrors and millennial struggles between people who assert that they have nothing in common. The only level on which this makes sense is if God is God, and a final act of creation is transforming everything. If that is the case, nothing else matters, or determines the outcome.
I'm not addressing that extremely nasty monkey activity. As we're not allowed to here. I certainly feel sorry for the cultures I mentioned, victims of history more than ours, both. Which has made them institutionally meaner. Your sensitivity is noted.
I think I get what your intended meaning was, @Martin54, but I think you need to recognise that this is a public forum, and the reference, by someone whose posts suggest that he is white British, to other nations and ethnicities as ‘monkeys’ is wide open to misunderstanding. Please think about that potential multi-national and multi-ethnic audience, and post with greater care in future.
This doesn't make our humanity or will irrelevant, but it may restrict the relevance to our current experience. If there is nothing else, that doesn't matter. If there is something else, it matters in that it means that living with the intention of exploring the nature of divine love, and trying to both experience it for oneself and enable others to experience it. Or not. What if we live destructively? We destroy ourselves, or rather we destroy that part of ourself which is already living in that other world. It has to be rebuilt from nothing at the beginning of the new creation. It is inconceivable that this won't hurt.
It doesn't work even if Love grounds being, @Eirenist. It's all part of the false prospectus; the distraction that I need a Saviour from my helpless damnable sinfulness more than I need to know that Love grounds being.
As I heard in church this morning as I turned up suited for the AGM. My heart aches. I wish I could buy in to it, I really do, warts and all. But I cannot.
My personal take at present is that any statement about God can only be metaphorical, and, for better or woorse, Christianity is the myth by which I live. And God does nothing in vain.
My personal take at present is that any statement about God can only be metaphorical, and, for better or woorse, Christianity is the myth by which I live. And God does nothing in vain.
Mine too, and, it's obviously nett for better. Just leave out the last two words.
My last two words stand, Martin54, as far as I am concerned. I prefer to stay clear of your pit of despair, I wish there was some way to help you out of it.
Why would I not Eirenist? Is this what Love wants me to endure until death? For what purpose? The pit of despair for the rest of my life is not in vain?
@The_Riv your quotation of the full lyrics of a song upthread risks the Ship falling foul of copyright law. Please provide a brief extract and a link to the full text as I have now done.
Also this
Working hard to be offended, I see.
is getting close to a personal attack. Please desist.
Hostly beret off
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
"South Pacific" is in the Public Domain, if that matters. Of course I'd never want to run afoul of anything here on the Ship. Thank you for the reminder.
@The_Riv your quotation of the full lyrics of a song upthread risks the Ship falling foul of copyright law. Please provide a brief extract and a link to the full text as I have now done.
Also this
Working hard to be offended, I see.
is getting close to a personal attack. Please desist.
Hostly beret off
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
"South Pacific" is in the Public Domain, if that matters.
Fundamentally, the issue is that we don’t expect hosts to be universally upto date on copyright of all works across all jurisdictions, which is why we don’t permit whole piece reproductions of this kind. Please take any further discussion to Styx.
@The_Riv your quotation of the full lyrics of a song upthread risks the Ship falling foul of copyright law. Please provide a brief extract and a link to the full text as I have now done.
Also this
Working hard to be offended, I see.
is getting close to a personal attack. Please desist.
Hostly beret off
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
"South Pacific" is in the Public Domain, if that matters.
Comments
As I understand the Orthodox position sin is not intrinsic to our nature, which is how it can be framed in some Western presentations of Ancestral Sin.
Yes, yes, I know that the Reformed tradition isn't as deterministic or as pessimistic about human nature as it is so often portrayed ...
I can't speak for the Lutherans as what little I know of their approach comes from these boards.
Rome seems overly juridical on this as on much else, bless her.
Rome and her daughters can share that tendency.
We don't need to be atheists to reject Original Sin as it has traditionally been framed. Judaism doesn't have a concept of Original Sin and that's a theistic religion last time I looked.
The tenacity of these conservative inhibitory memes is a remarkable testament to reason being the slave of the passions. To evolution.
An entirely natural struggle that comes with growing up.
It nails it for the non-O. Like filioque and theotokos, men died for those absurd distinctions.
@The_Riv your quotation of the full lyrics of a song upthread risks the Ship falling foul of copyright law. Please provide a brief extract and a link to the full text as I have now done.
Also this
is getting close to a personal attack. Please desist.
Hostly beret off
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
I stand to be corrected, but I can't recall hearing about anyone being 'martyred' on one side or the other over the 'filioque' or 'theotokos'. Exiled, yes, possibly knocked about or even maimed. Not sure anyone was actually executed over those controversies, but wiser and better informed Shipmates will be able to correct me if I'm wrong.
That isn't to say that there wasn't rancour or aggression. But I suspect there was more to the egregious 'Massacre of the Latins' and the later Sack of Constantinople than disputes over theological niceties.
At any rate, I do find some of your historical musings wide of the mark, @Martin54. That doesn't mean you don't get your arrows broadly within striking distance of the target.
For instance, on one thread you mention Wesley preaching while people were fornicating beneath the wagons. That's anachronistic. Those charges were levelled at US frontier revivalism in the early 1800s, camp-meetings and so on. The US style camp-meeting didn't arrive in the UK within Wesley's lifetime.
Just sayin' ...
The 'filioque' thing was certainly one of the key features of the Great Schism but it wasn't a 'stand alone' thing - add politics and 'othering' into the toxic mix on both sides.
Laudian 'reforms' provoked a reaction among Puritans most certainly but they weren't the only 'causus belli' of the 17th century Civil Wars on these islands.
Wesley's 'Aldersgate experience' happened in 1738. He began field preaching not long afterwards. If couples had been canoodling during or after his open-air preaching then it would have been in woods or under hedges rather than under wagons, which were a feature of later and more 'organised' revivalist rallies.
Ok, I'm splitting hairs. But I doubt whether the Byzantine mob who went on a murderous rampage against Latin traders, clergy and religious in the 12th century were motivated by theological concerns any more than the Crusaders who looted the city 100 years later. An action which the Pope condemned.
The Assyrians who took to the streets and wrecked 10 police cars and injured several officers following the knife attack on their Bishop in Sydney last week probably weren't thinking about the finer points of episcopal governance.
That's not to defend or excuse any of these incidents.
I wonder what Love thinks of it all.
Sometimes I hanker for my old God. The one accurately portrayed in the one seamless cloth of the Bible.
BroJames, Purgatory Host
As I heard in church this morning as I turned up suited for the AGM. My heart aches. I wish I could buy in to it, I really do, warts and all. But I cannot.
Mine too, and, it's obviously nett for better. Just leave out the last two words.
(ETA spoiler tags DT, Admin)
Doublethink, Admin
"South Pacific" is in the Public Domain, if that matters. Of course I'd never want to run afoul of anything here on the Ship. Thank you for the reminder.
Thank you @Eirenist. It seems we must leave it there, here. And pick here.
Doublethink, Admin
I stand corrected. Thanks.