Because regular people like me don’t like to be labeled “racist” or “anti-semite” when we don’t have public evidence out there to disprove it. Also, despite his voice issues, he expresses himself much more clearly than I.
I missed something. Who here has called you "racist" or "anti-semite"?
I, and millions of others, will vote for Trump if he survives.
So far 2 ShipofFools members have stated their certainty that, by virtue of that, we are all evil, and/or racist. I guess you missed that, but I did not.
I think one of the issues is that Pres. Biden wasn't actually in very obvious decline on full public view over the past year.
To the blind, perhaps. To the rest of us, he was obviously past his Use By date a long time ago. But we had no one to tell who would listen.
My point is that to whatever degree he was/is declining, it was at least partially shielded by his team from "full public view" that made it somewhat less than "very obvious.'
His decline was less than very obvious only to those who really want to be fooled.
There is a report that Trump may be reconsidering his choice of J.D. Vance as Vice President. Vance was chosen, not to appeal to marginal voters, but to solidify the MAGA base.
….
It’s much more likely that Trump chose Vance to help protect himself from further assassination attempts.
There is a report that Trump may be reconsidering his choice of J.D. Vance as Vice President. Vance was chosen, not to appeal to marginal voters, but to solidify the MAGA base.
….
It’s much more likely that Trump chose Vance to help protect himself from further assassination attempts.
I might be missing something, but why does his VP pick alter his risk ? (It was a massive fuck up from a security perspective - but I don’t see how Vance alters the chances of that happening again,)
I think one of the issues is that Pres. Biden wasn't actually in very obvious decline on full public view over the past year.
To the blind, perhaps. To the rest of us, he was obviously past his Use By date a long time ago. But we had no one to tell who would listen.
My point is that to whatever degree he was/is declining, it was at least partially shielded by his team from "full public view" that made it somewhat less than "very obvious.'
His decline was less than very obvious only to those who really want to be fooled.
One could say the same about Trump’s lack of integrity and honesty, as well as his willingness to ignore legal and democratic norms for his own self-benefit.
It would be good if you could trust me about my own experience, which is also true.
Right back atcha.
(Racists) never displayed (racism) around me until I dated, then married, non-white ... Before that, I was very much convinced that racism was almost entirely a thing of the past. I was very surprised at the treatment my new husband and I received at the hands of people I formerly respected, even honored.
As would I. Here in northern Calif, where I live, I have experienced white people being cringily over-friendly when I am in public with non-white friends. Naturally, that is another form of racism, but is likely evidence of their intention to put their anti-racism on display.
My situation and experiences ARE different from yours. That may be inevitable, or I may be blind to things that aren’t in my own makeup enough to recognize them in others - BUT I maintain that the experience I report is as valid as yours, tho certainly yours would be more painful in this regard. I am fully aware of that.
There is a report that Trump may be reconsidering his choice of J.D. Vance as Vice President. Vance was chosen, not to appeal to marginal voters, but to solidify the MAGA base.
….
It’s much more likely that Trump chose Vance to help protect himself from further assassination attempts.
I might be missing something, but why does his VP pick alter his risk ?
Maybe Vance always scopes out where the nearest couch is, so he also has a good idea where to dive for cover?
@Moyessa Why are you voting for Trump - what is your positive case for him ? (And why doesn’t the plan for mass deportation worry you ?)
Well, It can’t be too short if it will be accurate.
1. My voting history: All Democrats except John Anderson (3d party & I forget the reasons I voted for him). I saw Democrats as for working people, to a much greater extent than Republicans, who to my mind were all rich jerks, or wannabe same.
2. Comes 2016 of course voting for Hillary. Trump was a cringey capitalist/reality TV guy. I am not a watcher of TV, so am very much out of the mainstream, culturally.
3. What made me decide I couldn’t vote for Hillary, was her remark about “deplorables”. Pretty much everyone I know and love fits her definition. Her hypocrisy disgusted me (I was already “over” Obama when he bailed out financiers, banks & rentiers, instead of the thousands (?millions) of families with young children who had seized the apparent opportunity to buy a family home but were instead swindled while losing their homes. I’ve never heard moreheartbreaking stories. Many of those families were non-white. That was the least I would have expected from Obama.
4. So, I didn’t vote for the first timein my life. The response from anyone who asked was shock, anger, name-calling, being told “our democracy is at stake, you fascist…”until I started to try to find out what all that fear and hatred & contempt was about.
Deep breath - I will continue if you are interested. Mainly, thank you for asking. That makes you rare, if not unique (& not just on this forum).
I might be missing something, but why does his VP pick alter his risk ? (It was a massive fuck up from a security perspective - but I don’t see how Vance alters the chances of that happening again,)
Vance has not been selected by the same machine/deep state. He may be selected by a different swamp, but that will take a while to see.
Yes, please tell us what you think. Several of us have asked you to explain your position, me among them. I'm especially interested in what you think of Trump's intention to deport millions of people.
@Moyessa with regard to the "deplorables" quote, are you sure you identify those you "know and love" with the deplorables and not with the other "basket" of Trump supporters Clinton identified? It may help to reread the quote: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables
Deep breath - I will continue if you are interested. Mainly, thank you for asking. That makes you rare, if not unique (& not just on this forum).
I am interested - so why vote for Trump ?
I don’t appreciate censorship of true things.
Hunter laptop truth not available to voters before election.
Hillary’s campaign paid for the Steele dossier.
Longterm Russiagate deception by the other side
Trump is the only president lately who hasn’t gotten our country into overseas war(s).
Deep breath - I will continue if you are interested. Mainly, thank you for asking. That makes you rare, if not unique (& not just on this forum).
I am interested - so why vote for Trump ?
I don’t appreciate censorship of true things.
What do you do then with Trump’s lies, including his continuing claim—for which he’s never produced any evidence, and which was rejected in all of the 60+ lawsuits he or his campaign filed—that he actually won the 2020 election?
Couldn't have been too heavily censored, because I knew about Hillary's financial arrangements with Steele. What you neglect to mention, however, is that it was originally REPUBLICANS who were funding his work, during the GOP primaries.
(Regardless of funding, I do think the dossier was highly overhyped. It is interesting to speculate who would want to spread stories about Trump being having urophiliac sexual tendencies, but, besides one obviously faked tape, no evidence ever emerged to back that up
Trump is the only president lately who hasn’t gotten our country into overseas war(s).
Arguably true. I will say that it was odd to read an ANTI-Trump piece in The Economist which mentioned, in passing, that "He seems to dislike war". Regardless of whether or not you think that's true, it seemed strange that the magazine would believe it to be true, while simultaneously not considering it praiseworthy.
That said, it's not exactly clear if the lack of wars under Trump was because of his personal isolationism, or just because no situations arose where war would be a viable recourse(Biden hasn't started any wars, either).
I will say that, apart from not getting into wars, Trump's foreign-policy did make a big mess of a lotta stuff, eg. tearing up the Iran nuclear deal, reversing Obama's Cuba outreach, moving the embassy to Jerusalem etc. Though a lotta that is probably stuff any Republican woulda done, and the embassy move was largely symbolic.
@Moyessa You still have not answered the question of what you see as positive about Trump. I see you became disillusioned with Obama because of saved the banks, not the people with underwater mortgages. i guess you never heard of the Housing Affordability and Stabilization program which was started by Obama in 2009 and expired in 2018. This might give you an idea how it worked.
You said he ignored the millions who had underwater loans. Acturally, over 3.5 million homeowners saved their homes through it. We used it to save our home. It worked for us.
You forgot that the Housing Crisis that Obama responded to happened during the Bush Administration
But you still have yet to give us a POSITIVE reason why you plan to vote for Trump. What has he said that gets you excited to vote for him.
It seems plausible to me that the embassy move to Jerusalem might have been a trigger for the current war in Gaza, so I wouldn't describe it as largely symbolic.
It seems plausible to me that the embassy move to Jerusalem might have been a trigger for the current war in Gaza, so I wouldn't describe it as largely symbolic.
That happened during the Trump administration.
The most likely reason was the growing reproachment between Israel and Saudi Arabia. SA was about to recognize the state of Israel.
Hunter laptop truth not available to voters before election.
Hillary’s campaign paid for the Steele dossier.
Longterm Russiagate deception by the other side
Trump is the only president lately who hasn’t gotten our country into overseas war(s).
Make sure you pay Sean Hannity the royalties he's due for your use of his years-old stump material.
The thing is, a lot of people who hold the views @Moyessa outlined above also believe that President Biden and the CIA are the ones who deliberately started the war in Ukraine. I've heard that a lot down here in MAGA Mississippi.
It seems plausible to me that the embassy move to Jerusalem might have been a trigger for the current war in Gaza, so I wouldn't describe it as largely symbolic.
That happened during the Trump administration.
Yes, I count it as a major foreign policy blunder for his administration.
It seems plausible to me that the embassy move to Jerusalem might have been a trigger for the current war in Gaza, so I wouldn't describe it as largely symbolic.
That happened during the Trump administration.
The most likely reason was the growing reproachment between Israel and Saudi Arabia. SA was about to recognize the state of Israel.
So you mean that Hamas attacked Israel with the intention of provoking a violent Israeli response, thus making it bad PR for the Saudis to recognize Israel?
The thing is, a lot of people who hold the views @Moyessa outlined above also believe that President Biden and the CIA are the ones who deliberately started the war in Ukraine.
And that every time you charge a restaurant meal to a credit card, and put the tip on the card, the tip goes directly into Biden's secret bank account in China.
@Moyessa with regard to the "deplorables" quote, are you sure you identify those you "know and love" with the deplorables and not with the other "basket" of Trump supporters Clinton identified? It may help to reread the quote: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables
It was an incredibly clumsy and ill-considered thing to say, regardless. All it did was reinforce the perception of the Democrats as the party of hyper-educated coastal urbanites who look down on the people of middle America -- the people who didn't go to college, who still live in the same small towns they grew up in, and who work with their hands/their backs for a living.
Because when it comes down to it, success in politics isn't about being right -- it's about winning people over. Particularly the people who aren't sold on you to begin with. And as the ultimate Washington insider, Hillary really ought to have understood that.
It seems plausible to me that the embassy move to Jerusalem might have been a trigger for the current war in Gaza, so I wouldn't describe it as largely symbolic.
That happened during the Trump administration.
The most likely reason was the growing reproachment between Israel and Saudi Arabia. SA was about to recognize the state of Israel.
So you mean that Hamas attacked Israel with the intention of provoking a violent Israeli response, thus making it bad PR for the Saudis to recognize Israel?
Not sure I totally agree, but that is a completely mainstream point of view FWIW. Usually playing up Iranian influence on Hamas, because it’s massively in Iran’s interests.
We’re not in conspiracy theory territory with this argument by any means.
It seems plausible to me that the embassy move to Jerusalem might have been a trigger for the current war in Gaza, so I wouldn't describe it as largely symbolic.
That happened during the Trump administration.
The most likely reason was the growing reproachment between Israel and Saudi Arabia. SA was about to recognize the state of Israel.
So you mean that Hamas attacked Israel with the intention of provoking a violent Israeli response, thus making it bad PR for the Saudis to recognize Israel?
Not sure I totally agree, but that is a completely mainstream point of view FWIW. Usually playing up Iranian influence on Hamas, because it’s massively in Iran’s interests.
We’re not in conspiracy theory territory with this argument by any means.
I wasn't doubting it or thinking it was a conspiracy theory at all. Just wanted to clarify that's what @Gramps49 meant.
It seems plausible to me that the embassy move to Jerusalem might have been a trigger for the current war in Gaza, so I wouldn't describe it as largely symbolic.
That happened during the Trump administration.
The most likely reason was the growing reproachment between Israel and Saudi Arabia. SA was about to recognize the state of Israel.
So you mean that Hamas attacked Israel with the intention of provoking a violent Israeli response, thus making it bad PR for the Saudis to recognize Israel?
Not sure I totally agree, but that is a completely mainstream point of view FWIW. Usually playing up Iranian influence on Hamas, because it’s massively in Iran’s interests.
We’re not in conspiracy theory territory with this argument by any means.
I wasn't doubting it or thinking it was a conspiracy theory at all. Just wanted to clarify that's what @Gramps49 meant.
It is possible if you are not in a group that is regularly subject to racism to never see it.
Well tbh this sentence from your second post is probably all you need have written in either, being short, pithy and unequivocal.
I found his much longer post about his youth and adulthood and his Indian friend to be really kind of enlightening, actually, so I’m glad he wrote it, myself.
Deep breath - I will continue if you are interested. Mainly, thank you for asking. That makes you rare, if not unique (& not just on this forum).
I am interested - so why vote for Trump ?
I don’t appreciate censorship of true things.
Hunter laptop truth not available to voters before election.
Hillary’s campaign paid for the Steele dossier.
Longterm Russiagate deception by the other side
Trump is the only president lately who hasn’t gotten our country into overseas war(s).
So your primary reason for voting *for* Trump, is he didn’t got to war ? Are you not concerned about anything he did do, or says he will do ? Storing classified documents in random places, sexual abuse, large amounts of lying, planning to deport millions of people, inciting Jan 6th thereby putting the US at risk of civil war ?
Because regular people like me don’t like to be labeled “racist” or “anti-semite” when we don’t have public evidence out there to disprove it. Also, despite his voice issues, he expresses himself much more clearly than I.
I missed something. Who here has called you "racist" or "anti-semite"?
I, and millions of others, will vote for Trump if he survives.
So far 2 ShipofFools members have stated their certainty that, by virtue of that, we are all evil, and/or racist. I guess you missed that, but I did not.
I might be missing something, but why does his VP pick alter his risk ? (It was a massive fuck up from a security perspective - but I don’t see how Vance alters the chances of that happening again,)
Vance has not been selected by the same machine/deep state. He may be selected by a different swamp, but that will take a while to see.
Fixed quoting code. BroJames, Purgatory Host
Er… deep state? Is there evidence you can point you from reliable sources even proving that exists? And that the VP candidates are selected by it?
It is possible if you are not in a group that is regularly subject to racism to never see it.
Well tbh this sentence from your second post is probably all you need have written in either, being short, pithy and unequivocal.
I found his much longer post about his youth and adulthood and his Indian friend to be really kind of enlightening, actually, so I’m glad he wrote it, myself.
Whereas, and I accept it wasn’t their intention and I am naturally overly sensitive to it especially at the moment, I was triggered by the monolithic treatment of ‘white privilege’ which hides the experience of racism which my family experiences.
I know it’s not intended to, and wasn’t intended as such in the post, but marginalisation of racism against some whites is what it does.
‘White Anglo Saxon’ privilege might work better, but then it’s also a feature of European ethnic whites* more generally so I don’t think it does.
But either way, it is triggering for me and I need to get better at not being triggered. But it’s hard when it’s your wife and children.
I’m sorry for reacting to @alienfromzog so quickly yesterday, but maybe we all need to be aware of our language triggers and also how what we write gets read by others who don’t have our experiences. I don’t know. It’s hard.
@Moyessa with regard to the "deplorables" quote, are you sure you identify those you "know and love" with the deplorables and not with the other "basket" of Trump supporters Clinton identified? It may help to reread the quote: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables
It was an incredibly clumsy and ill-considered thing to say, regardless. All it did was reinforce the perception of the Democrats as the party of hyper-educated coastal urbanites who look down on the people of middle America -- the people who didn't go to college, who still live in the same small towns they grew up in, and who work with their hands/their backs for a living.
The way it was spun certainly did that. It's hard to see how you'd get that from the actual words spoken.
I also shouldn’t have watched Schindler’s List again the other day - far too close to home.
And antisemitism being either on the rise or just more open and visible is not what I thought the 21st century would have in store. I’ve been seeing things online (not in person (yet) thank God) that make my blood run cold. I’m Jewish by blood on my mother’s side, but I don’t necessarily “look” Jewish, so as far as I know I haven’t encountered open prejudice personally for that.* But I’m blown away by open antisemitism on the internet (thanks so effing much for buying Twitter and taking the rules against hate speech off, Elon ) to a degree I didn’t think existed anymore.
* I’m in the US, born and raised in Florida, rather than the further north “Deep South,” not the UK, so different experiences…
It is possible if you are not in a group that is regularly subject to racism to never see it.
Well tbh this sentence from your second post is probably all you need have written in either, being short, pithy and unequivocal.
I found his much longer post about his youth and adulthood and his Indian friend to be really kind of enlightening, actually, so I’m glad he wrote it, myself.
Whereas, and I accept it wasn’t their intention and I am naturally overly sensitive to it especially at the moment, I was triggered by the monolithic treatment of ‘white privilege’ which hides the experience of racism which my family experiences.
I know it’s not intended to, and wasn’t intended as such in the post, but marginalisation of racism against some whites is what it does.
‘White Anglo Saxon’ privilege might work better, but then it’s also a feature of European ethnic whites* more generally so I don’t think it does.
But either way, it is triggering for me and I need to get better at not being triggered. But it’s hard when it’s your wife and children.
I’m sorry for reacting to @alienfromzog so quickly yesterday, but maybe we all need to be aware of our language triggers and also how what we write gets read by others who don’t have our experiences. I don’t know. It’s hard.
I apologise. It was a case of us fiercely agreeing with each other. I was a little piqued by your comment and I was wrong to be. I'm sorry.
I think we have demonstrated beautifully the point of how easy it is (without malice and benign intent only) to not see racism because one will literally live and move only in contexts where it isn't seen. By the way, the same is true about sexual harassment and assault. It's easy to think they are rare. They are not. If you ask the right question, lots of women you know will have a story. Me Too was not a shock.
I have never felt any personal connection with Judaism but I did discover a few years ago that I have distant relatives who were murdered by the Nazis. My grandfather's surname (my mother's maiden name) is a misspelling of a common Dutch name. When my two children were born, my wife who's into family heritage did the research.
My Grandfather's father was Jewish but it seems from the census data that he converted to Christianity because he married a woman from chapel. My Great Great Grandfather's family came to North London in the 1800's from Amsterdam. Once we got this far, we found someone had done the branch of the family that remained in the Netherlands. My Grandfather had several second cousins who were sent to the death camps. I doubt he knew them or about them but it struck me how one branch came to the UK two generations before and were safe. The other didn't and were victims of such evil.
Schindler's list is such hard watching. I found Hotel Rwanda very hard too. But the despicable evil is real.
It all begins with othering. A failure of empathy. A belief that some human beings are of less worth.
I'm waffling now but come back to this simple fact. Trump is a sociopath who cares for no one other than Trump. He is racist and sexist and will ride both horses very happily.
I want to see Trump defeated because of the huge geopolitical consequences if he wins. America needs Trump to lose for the sake of all her people.
Several posts on this thread have been pushing the line. Please make sure you are addressing other participants with respect, even if you disagree with their point of view.
@Moyessa with regard to the "deplorables" quote, are you sure you identify those you "know and love" with the deplorables and not with the other "basket" of Trump supporters Clinton identified? It may help to reread the quote: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables
It was an incredibly clumsy and ill-considered thing to say, regardless. All it did was reinforce the perception of the Democrats as the party of hyper-educated coastal urbanites who look down on the people of middle America -- the people who didn't go to college, who still live in the same small towns they grew up in, and who work with their hands/their backs for a living.
The way it was spun certainly did that. It's hard to see how you'd get that from the actual words spoken.
From where I'm sitting it's easy to see. The second I heard the quote I knew it was a huge gaffe. No matter how true, denigrating a wide swathe of the electorate in such a general way doesn't play well. If she had said Trump was attracting racist, sexist, ableist etc people but not quantified half his voters as such, it would have been okay. But yes, it played right into the perception that high-powered Democrats are coastal elites who have nothing but disdain for flyover country.
It was like when Mitt Romney said at a private fundraiser that 47% of Americans are takers - when that got out, it reminded us that elite Republicans act like everyone who wants a decent social safety net is just too lazy to work for a living.
Those connections don't have to be in the words spoken in the moment because the stereotypes are so well known. We know what Clinton and Romney meant, and no back pedaling was going to undo either gaffe. And there is truth in the conclusions people drew both times - the disdain was real.
One of the reasons I stayed away from the Ship for a while was that I got so tired of non-Americans talking confidently about the US and getting it wrong. If you're not steeped in American culture, you probably don't have the context it takes to interpret a statement like this one of Clinton's and the reaction to it.
You do not seem to want to take my word for it, but amongst the people I interact with there is the whole spectrum from near-color-blindness to in-group preference which seems to be inborn, IME Malicious racism ( which I do understand could be hidden from me), I have only ever seen in media dramas.
3. What made me decide I couldn’t vote for Hillary, was her remark about “deplorables”. Pretty much everyone I know and love fits her definition.
Hillary Clinton said: »
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.
I'm not sure how it's possible for the people you interact with to run "the whole spectrum from near-color-blindness to in-group preference which seems to be inborn" and also that everyone you know and love is some variation of "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic". The only way I can parse this that makes linguistic sense is that while you interact with a broad spectrum ranging from non-haters to haters, you only love those who are some combination of racist, sexist, homophobic, and/or Islamaphobic. What's always puzzled me about the outraged reactions to Clinton's claim that some (but not all) of Donald Trump's followers are "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" and that those traits are deplorable is how many people heard that and immediately decided Clinton must be talking about them.
Hunter laptop truth not available to voters before election.
Hillary’s campaign paid for the Steele dossier.
Longterm Russiagate deception by the other side
It seems deceptive to describe the Republican-controlled Senate as "the other side" for producing their five volumereport onRussianinterferencein the2016 election. The fact that a hostile foreign government tried to ratfuck an American presidential election and seemed to have a clear favorite candidate seems like something that should be of public interest.
Trump is the only president lately who hasn’t gotten our country into overseas war(s).
Arguably true.
Arguably not. Obama doesn't seem to have gotten the U.S. into any overseas wars, unless you count escalating America's drone attacks. In which case Trump also got America into overseas wars since drone attacks reached their peak during his administration. One of the things that I think Biden hasn't received enough credit for is that he's pretty much ended widespread drone warfare by the U.S.
At any rate, if Trump's big selling point is his alleged first term reluctance to get American into any overseas wars, his planned invasion of Mexico should give his supporters cause. Unless they think Mexico isn't really "overseas" and that this is an important distinction because the U.S. fighting a border war would be much better than an overseas war.
The thing is, a lot of people who hold the views @Moyessa outlined above also believe that President Biden and the CIA are the ones who deliberately started the war in Ukraine. I've heard that a lot down here in MAGA Mississippi.
Even if you believe that, it's not a war that the U.S. is fighting, which was @Moyessa's criterion.
Even if you believe that, it's not a war that the U.S. is fighting, which was @Moyessa's criterion.
Well, the Deep State ilk will say that of course the US is there, but it's being concealed from the public, b/c there's no way we could train Ukrainians on US weaponry as fast as it seems it's happened. The ONLY conclusion is that the US forces are actively fighting dressed as Ukrainian military.
Trump is the only president lately who hasn’t gotten our country into overseas war(s).
He claims that, but it is not true. He ordered the bombing of Syria after it had gassed its people. The first time he ordered a bombing run, the target was the Syrian Air Force base which Syria had used for those gas attacks. Small problem: the base also hosted Russian fighters. Solution, let the Russians (and Syrians) know of the attack so they could evacuate the planes.
He also ordered the attack on an Iranian general who was visiting Iraq, In response, Iran launched several missiles at several American outposts along the border of Syria and Iraq.
He continued a number of deployments against ISIS in the Middle East and Africa.
He may not have gotten us into a new overseas wars, but he did continue previous engagements.
Still, this is not a positive reason. Name of Trump's promises for the future you agree with.
Steven Cheung, Trump’s campaign communications director, said in a statement late Thursday that it “would be inappropriate to schedule things with Harris because Democrats very well could still change their minds,” since Harris is only the party’s presumptive nominee.
The fact the Joe Biden was only the Democrat's presumptive nominee did not prevent Trump from scheduling a debate with him back when Trump himself was only the Republican's presumptive nominee.
I think we have demonstrated beautifully the point of how easy it is (without malice and benign intent only) to not see racism because one will literally live and move only in contexts where it isn't seen. By the way, the same is true about sexual harassment and assault. It's easy to think they are rare. They are not. If you ask the right question, lots of women you know will have a story. Me Too was not a shock.
There's also a numbers game here. Each of us interacts with hundreds of people on a weekly basis. It doesn't take many people to be overtly sexist, racist, or whatever else-ist for us to be more or less guaranteed to interact with an -ist every week. It is perfectly possible (indeed it is likely) for the statements "most people in X area are not racist" and "most ethnic minority people in X area regularly experience racism" to be simultaneously true.
Comments
@Croesos I have hidden your link above which goes straight to an article about the Holocaust with no warning.
This is not the first time you have linked to potentially very upsetting material in this way. Please desist.
Hostly beret off
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
I, and millions of others, will vote for Trump if he survives.
So far 2 ShipofFools members have stated their certainty that, by virtue of that, we are all evil, and/or racist. I guess you missed that, but I did not.
It’s much more likely that Trump chose Vance to help protect himself from further assassination attempts.
I might be missing something, but why does his VP pick alter his risk ? (It was a massive fuck up from a security perspective - but I don’t see how Vance alters the chances of that happening again,)
Similarly, @Moyessa, I would ask why his attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election don’t worry you?
As would I. Here in northern Calif, where I live, I have experienced white people being cringily over-friendly when I am in public with non-white friends. Naturally, that is another form of racism, but is likely evidence of their intention to put their anti-racism on display.
My situation and experiences ARE different from yours. That may be inevitable, or I may be blind to things that aren’t in my own makeup enough to recognize them in others - BUT I maintain that the experience I report is as valid as yours, tho certainly yours would be more painful in this regard. I am fully aware of that.
Maybe Vance always scopes out where the nearest couch is, so he also has a good idea where to dive for cover?
1. My voting history: All Democrats except John Anderson (3d party & I forget the reasons I voted for him). I saw Democrats as for working people, to a much greater extent than Republicans, who to my mind were all rich jerks, or wannabe same.
2. Comes 2016 of course voting for Hillary. Trump was a cringey capitalist/reality TV guy. I am not a watcher of TV, so am very much out of the mainstream, culturally.
3. What made me decide I couldn’t vote for Hillary, was her remark about “deplorables”. Pretty much everyone I know and love fits her definition. Her hypocrisy disgusted me (I was already “over” Obama when he bailed out financiers, banks & rentiers, instead of the thousands (?millions) of families with young children who had seized the apparent opportunity to buy a family home but were instead swindled while losing their homes. I’ve never heard moreheartbreaking stories. Many of those families were non-white. That was the least I would have expected from Obama.
4. So, I didn’t vote for the first timein my life. The response from anyone who asked was shock, anger, name-calling, being told “our democracy is at stake, you fascist…”until I started to try to find out what all that fear and hatred & contempt was about.
Deep breath - I will continue if you are interested. Mainly, thank you for asking. That makes you rare, if not unique (& not just on this forum).
Vance has not been selected by the same machine/deep state. He may be selected by a different swamp, but that will take a while to see.
Fixed quoting code. BroJames, Purgatory Host
I am interested - so why vote for Trump ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket_of_deplorables
I don’t appreciate censorship of true things.
Hunter laptop truth not available to voters before election.
Hillary’s campaign paid for the Steele dossier.
Longterm Russiagate deception by the other side
Trump is the only president lately who hasn’t gotten our country into overseas war(s).
Couldn't have been too heavily censored, because I knew about Hillary's financial arrangements with Steele. What you neglect to mention, however, is that it was originally REPUBLICANS who were funding his work, during the GOP primaries.
(Regardless of funding, I do think the dossier was highly overhyped. It is interesting to speculate who would want to spread stories about Trump being having urophiliac sexual tendencies, but, besides one obviously faked tape, no evidence ever emerged to back that up
Arguably true. I will say that it was odd to read an ANTI-Trump piece in The Economist which mentioned, in passing, that "He seems to dislike war". Regardless of whether or not you think that's true, it seemed strange that the magazine would believe it to be true, while simultaneously not considering it praiseworthy.
That said, it's not exactly clear if the lack of wars under Trump was because of his personal isolationism, or just because no situations arose where war would be a viable recourse(Biden hasn't started any wars, either).
I will say that, apart from not getting into wars, Trump's foreign-policy did make a big mess of a lotta stuff, eg. tearing up the Iran nuclear deal, reversing Obama's Cuba outreach, moving the embassy to Jerusalem etc. Though a lotta that is probably stuff any Republican woulda done, and the embassy move was largely symbolic.
You said he ignored the millions who had underwater loans. Acturally, over 3.5 million homeowners saved their homes through it. We used it to save our home. It worked for us.
You forgot that the Housing Crisis that Obama responded to happened during the Bush Administration
But you still have yet to give us a POSITIVE reason why you plan to vote for Trump. What has he said that gets you excited to vote for him.
That happened during the Trump administration.
The most likely reason was the growing reproachment between Israel and Saudi Arabia. SA was about to recognize the state of Israel.
Make sure you pay Sean Hannity the royalties he's due for your use of his years-old stump material.
The thing is, a lot of people who hold the views @Moyessa outlined above also believe that President Biden and the CIA are the ones who deliberately started the war in Ukraine. I've heard that a lot down here in MAGA Mississippi.
Yes, I count it as a major foreign policy blunder for his administration.
So you mean that Hamas attacked Israel with the intention of provoking a violent Israeli response, thus making it bad PR for the Saudis to recognize Israel?
And that every time you charge a restaurant meal to a credit card, and put the tip on the card, the tip goes directly into Biden's secret bank account in China.
And countless other such falsehoods.
It was an incredibly clumsy and ill-considered thing to say, regardless. All it did was reinforce the perception of the Democrats as the party of hyper-educated coastal urbanites who look down on the people of middle America -- the people who didn't go to college, who still live in the same small towns they grew up in, and who work with their hands/their backs for a living.
Because when it comes down to it, success in politics isn't about being right -- it's about winning people over. Particularly the people who aren't sold on you to begin with. And as the ultimate Washington insider, Hillary really ought to have understood that.
Not sure I totally agree, but that is a completely mainstream point of view FWIW. Usually playing up Iranian influence on Hamas, because it’s massively in Iran’s interests.
We’re not in conspiracy theory territory with this argument by any means.
I wasn't doubting it or thinking it was a conspiracy theory at all. Just wanted to clarify that's what @Gramps49 meant.
Fair enough!
I found his much longer post about his youth and adulthood and his Indian friend to be really kind of enlightening, actually, so I’m glad he wrote it, myself.
So your primary reason for voting *for* Trump, is he didn’t got to war ? Are you not concerned about anything he did do, or says he will do ? Storing classified documents in random places, sexual abuse, large amounts of lying, planning to deport millions of people, inciting Jan 6th thereby putting the US at risk of civil war ?
And “anti-Semite”?
Er… deep state? Is there evidence you can point you from reliable sources even proving that exists? And that the VP candidates are selected by it?
Whereas, and I accept it wasn’t their intention and I am naturally overly sensitive to it especially at the moment, I was triggered by the monolithic treatment of ‘white privilege’ which hides the experience of racism which my family experiences.
I know it’s not intended to, and wasn’t intended as such in the post, but marginalisation of racism against some whites is what it does.
‘White Anglo Saxon’ privilege might work better, but then it’s also a feature of European ethnic whites* more generally so I don’t think it does.
But either way, it is triggering for me and I need to get better at not being triggered. But it’s hard when it’s your wife and children.
I’m sorry for reacting to @alienfromzog so quickly yesterday, but maybe we all need to be aware of our language triggers and also how what we write gets read by others who don’t have our experiences. I don’t know. It’s hard.
The way it was spun certainly did that. It's hard to see how you'd get that from the actual words spoken.
Sending hugs and definitely prayers. 🕯
And antisemitism being either on the rise or just more open and visible is not what I thought the 21st century would have in store.
* I’m in the US, born and raised in Florida, rather than the further north “Deep South,” not the UK, so different experiences…
I apologise. It was a case of us fiercely agreeing with each other. I was a little piqued by your comment and I was wrong to be. I'm sorry.
I think we have demonstrated beautifully the point of how easy it is (without malice and benign intent only) to not see racism because one will literally live and move only in contexts where it isn't seen. By the way, the same is true about sexual harassment and assault. It's easy to think they are rare. They are not. If you ask the right question, lots of women you know will have a story. Me Too was not a shock.
I have never felt any personal connection with Judaism but I did discover a few years ago that I have distant relatives who were murdered by the Nazis. My grandfather's surname (my mother's maiden name) is a misspelling of a common Dutch name. When my two children were born, my wife who's into family heritage did the research.
My Grandfather's father was Jewish but it seems from the census data that he converted to Christianity because he married a woman from chapel. My Great Great Grandfather's family came to North London in the 1800's from Amsterdam. Once we got this far, we found someone had done the branch of the family that remained in the Netherlands. My Grandfather had several second cousins who were sent to the death camps. I doubt he knew them or about them but it struck me how one branch came to the UK two generations before and were safe. The other didn't and were victims of such evil.
Schindler's list is such hard watching. I found Hotel Rwanda very hard too. But the despicable evil is real.
It all begins with othering. A failure of empathy. A belief that some human beings are of less worth.
I'm waffling now but come back to this simple fact. Trump is a sociopath who cares for no one other than Trump. He is racist and sexist and will ride both horses very happily.
I want to see Trump defeated because of the huge geopolitical consequences if he wins. America needs Trump to lose for the sake of all her people.
AFZ
@alienfromzog - please see your pms.
[/tangent]
Ship's Commandment number 3 states
Several posts on this thread have been pushing the line. Please make sure you are addressing other participants with respect, even if you disagree with their point of view.
Hostly beret off
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
From where I'm sitting it's easy to see. The second I heard the quote I knew it was a huge gaffe. No matter how true, denigrating a wide swathe of the electorate in such a general way doesn't play well. If she had said Trump was attracting racist, sexist, ableist etc people but not quantified half his voters as such, it would have been okay. But yes, it played right into the perception that high-powered Democrats are coastal elites who have nothing but disdain for flyover country.
It was like when Mitt Romney said at a private fundraiser that 47% of Americans are takers - when that got out, it reminded us that elite Republicans act like everyone who wants a decent social safety net is just too lazy to work for a living.
Those connections don't have to be in the words spoken in the moment because the stereotypes are so well known. We know what Clinton and Romney meant, and no back pedaling was going to undo either gaffe. And there is truth in the conclusions people drew both times - the disdain was real.
One of the reasons I stayed away from the Ship for a while was that I got so tired of non-Americans talking confidently about the US and getting it wrong. If you're not steeped in American culture, you probably don't have the context it takes to interpret a statement like this one of Clinton's and the reaction to it.
I'm not sure how it's possible for the people you interact with to run "the whole spectrum from near-color-blindness to in-group preference which seems to be inborn" and also that everyone you know and love is some variation of "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic". The only way I can parse this that makes linguistic sense is that while you interact with a broad spectrum ranging from non-haters to haters, you only love those who are some combination of racist, sexist, homophobic, and/or Islamaphobic. What's always puzzled me about the outraged reactions to Clinton's claim that some (but not all) of Donald Trump's followers are "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" and that those traits are deplorable is how many people heard that and immediately decided Clinton must be talking about them.
It seems deceptive to describe the Republican-controlled Senate as "the other side" for producing their five volume report on Russian interference in the 2016 election. The fact that a hostile foreign government tried to ratfuck an American presidential election and seemed to have a clear favorite candidate seems like something that should be of public interest.
Arguably not. Obama doesn't seem to have gotten the U.S. into any overseas wars, unless you count escalating America's drone attacks. In which case Trump also got America into overseas wars since drone attacks reached their peak during his administration. One of the things that I think Biden hasn't received enough credit for is that he's pretty much ended widespread drone warfare by the U.S.
At any rate, if Trump's big selling point is his alleged first term reluctance to get American into any overseas wars, his planned invasion of Mexico should give his supporters cause. Unless they think Mexico isn't really "overseas" and that this is an important distinction because the U.S. fighting a border war would be much better than an overseas war.
Even if you believe that, it's not a war that the U.S. is fighting, which was @Moyessa's criterion.
Well, the Deep State ilk will say that of course the US is there, but it's being concealed from the public, b/c there's no way we could train Ukrainians on US weaponry as fast as it seems it's happened. The ONLY conclusion is that the US forces are actively fighting dressed as Ukrainian military.
I hear it all of the time.
What about Libya?
If aerial bombardment counts as starting a war (which it probably should) then Trump also started wars.
He claims that, but it is not true. He ordered the bombing of Syria after it had gassed its people. The first time he ordered a bombing run, the target was the Syrian Air Force base which Syria had used for those gas attacks. Small problem: the base also hosted Russian fighters. Solution, let the Russians (and Syrians) know of the attack so they could evacuate the planes.
He also ordered the attack on an Iranian general who was visiting Iraq, In response, Iran launched several missiles at several American outposts along the border of Syria and Iraq.
He continued a number of deployments against ISIS in the Middle East and Africa.
He may not have gotten us into a new overseas wars, but he did continue previous engagements.
Still, this is not a positive reason. Name of Trump's promises for the future you agree with.
The fact the Joe Biden was only the Democrat's presumptive nominee did not prevent Trump from scheduling a debate with him back when Trump himself was only the Republican's presumptive nominee.
There's also a numbers game here. Each of us interacts with hundreds of people on a weekly basis. It doesn't take many people to be overtly sexist, racist, or whatever else-ist for us to be more or less guaranteed to interact with an -ist every week. It is perfectly possible (indeed it is likely) for the statements "most people in X area are not racist" and "most ethnic minority people in X area regularly experience racism" to be simultaneously true.