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Ship of Fools: St Gregory of Nyssa, San Francisco, California, USA

The Mystery WorshipperThe Mystery Worshipper Shipmate
edited June 2024 in The Mystery Worshipper

imageShip of Fools: St Gregory of Nyssa, San Francisco, California, USA

A beautiful and brilliant service in a rotunda filled with dancing saints

Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here


Comments

  • Box PewBox Pew Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    Thank you for a wonderful report on what is clearly a remarkable place of worship. Several aspects sounded so appealing (Fifteen Good Minutes among them) whilst others didn't (like the Mystery Worshipper I think I should have felt awkward at the dancing bit, even if there was a demonstration).

    But your report had the effect of making me want to visit St Gregory of Nyssa. To taste and see. It encouraged me to test my own boundaries and explore other encounters with God in an embracing worshipping community, that your report suggests would not be judgemental if it turned out not to be right for me at all.

    The word 'multicultural' has such a bad rep these days. Rightly so, as it is too often describes a process of de-culturing, negativity and new taboos. But this seems a space where blending cultural strands adds richness to the mix - perhaps lots of it.
  • PortolaPortola Shipmate
    In my report I forgot to mention one important feature of this service, namely, that the hymns and liturgical elements had a remarkable diversity and were sung with a fullness of volume, despite the lack of an organ, piano or musical instruments. The congregation, with the help of the choir, has embraced the unique music used in these services. Here is a link to a description of the music of St. Gregory:
    https://www.saintgregorys.org/music.html
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Good to see you filing reports again, Portola.
  • PortolaPortola Shipmate
    Thank you, Amanda. I always enjoy reading your reports and am grateful that you are back to writing reports. In fact, at St. Gregory I had to think of you because, if I saw correctly, one of the five persons leading the service was wearing sandals without socks under the vestments, which is something which you always notice.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Sockless sandals are monastic and thus acceptable -- provided they were black. Well, brown if he was a Franciscan.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    In a way, I'm surprised we haven't seen an MW Report from this amazing church before (or have we? I might have missed it...).

    IIRC, its unusual liturgical practices inspired Rev Richard Giles to introduce somewhat similar procedures into Philadelphia's TEC Cathedral, when he was its Dean.

    I especially like the idea of gongs and bells marking intervals of silence, though I'm not too keen on the dancing. I couldn't manage it these days, in any case, having to use two crutches, though I could cope with a procession from one place to another whilst singing a hymn.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Carried in a sedia gestatoria, of course.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Yes, one of them will do nicely.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedia_gestatoria
  • PortolaPortola Shipmate
    After writing the report I have taken a closer look at St. Gregory (335 – 394), who was bishop of Nyssa in Cappadocia in the 4th century. The theologian David Bentley Hart in his book “That all shall be saved” interprets a treatise of St. Gregory titled “On the Making of Humanity”. As Hart writes: “For him (Gregory)…the cosmos will have been truly created only when it reaches its consummation in the ‘union of all things with the first Good’, and humanity will have been truly created only when all human beings, united in the living body of Christ, become at last that ‘Godlike thing’ that is ‘humankind according to the image.’”
    In other words: the creation of humanity has not yet been consummated. The creation and redemption of humankind will not be complete until every person who has ever lived has become an integral part of the living body of Christ, reflecting the image of God. This means that there is no such thing as individual salvation: it has to incorporate everyone or it is not salvation. That a church community on Potrero Hill in San Francisco attempts to embody and celebrate this breath-taking vision of a 4th century church father – which includes building a church loaded with costly art work - is for me truly astonishing.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Very interesting - thank you @Portola.

    I wonder if there's anything in the UK akin to this church?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I found the review quite interesting. I love the panoramic view of the saints dancing around the altar. Seems more Greek in style and reflects Orthodox theology as I know it. i can think of a number shaker songs about the divine dance. The church I attend has an altar in tthe round. We have been known to dance around it too.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    The dancing saints are indeed a striking and remarkable work of art, though personally I find it something of a visual overload, preferring minimalist churches (Richard Giles' re-ordering of the TEC Cathedral in Philadelphia comes to mind!).
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    One of my favorite aspects of St. Gregory of Nyssa, as one who has only “visited” virtually, are the inscriptions on the altar. On one side is a quote from Isaac of Ninevah: “Did not our Lord dine with publicans and harlots? Therefore make no distinction between worthy and unworthy; all must be equal in your eyes to love and to serve.”

    And on the other side (in Greek, I think), the criticism of Jesus found in Luke: “This fellow eats with sinners.”


  • PortolaPortola Shipmate
    The altar inscriptions mentioned above by Nick Tamen reflect how the Eucharist is understood at St. Gregory. Traditionally, a baptismal font stands at a church entrance, indicating that baptism comes first as the gateway to the altar fellowship. The altar is traditionally opposite the entrance door and not immediately accessible. But at St. Gregory the entrance door leads directly to the altar, symbolizing that Christ welcomed people into an immediate friendship with God by means of a table fellowship offered to "sinners" and other outsiders without regard to their so-called worthiness. Baptisms at St. Gregory occur at a baptismal rock sculpure with running water which is outside the church and can be seen beyond the altar through the door opposite to the entrance door. In other words, the Eucharist, offered without precondition to all people who enter the church, leads toward baptism, reversing the usual order.
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    edited July 2024
    I once attended a local Lutheran liturgy-related conference with an elderly priest from our Episcopal parish. One of the main liturgies during the conference was a St Gregory of Nyssa-style Eucharist led by one of the founders of that parish in San Francisco. We used their music and liturgical practices and moved from one distinct space into another for the Communion rite. My priest friend was almost in tears at the end...tears of joy. He couldn't find enough words to describe his elation. And I thought he'd be put off because it was so unlike our traditional Anglican liturgy! (I don't remember dancing...we just walked to the altar area.)
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    edited July 2024
    I had a similar experience at a retreat centre. The Liturgy of the Word was in the lounge and we all then went upstairs to the chapel for the Liturgy of the Eucharist singing the psalm "I rejoiced when I heard thrm say, let us go to God's house" as we went.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2024
    It's been said that a small congregation in a great barn of a church (like Our Place!) can renew its liturgical worship by moving around, claiming the space, as it were, and using each part of the building. The late Bishop Michael Perham advocated this many years ago.

    For example, our usual Sunday group of 20-25 could easily have the Confession etc. at or near the font (with sprinkling of holy water), moving to the nave for the Gospel, homily, and prayers, before gathering around the free-standing altar for the Eucharistic Prayer.

    Mind you, this would entail removal of most of the Sacred Pews, objects like unto the Law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not...

    St Gregory of Nyssa shows what can be done, but something similar could be done in Other Places, if the will was there. I can't offhand recall any other MW Report from a church which offered a liturgy like this, but I may have missed something!
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    This would entail removal of most of the Sacred Pews, objects like unto the Law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not...

    What do you mean, remove? That was my great-grandmother's pew! I still have her rent receipt!
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    It's been said that a small congregation in a great barn of a church (like Our Place!) can renew its liturgical worship by moving around, claiming the space, as it were, and using each part of the building. The late Bishop Michael Perham advocated this many years ago.

    For example, our usual Sunday group of 20-25 could easily have the Confession etc. at or near the font (with sprinkling of holy water), moving to the nave for the Gospel, homily, and prayers, before gathering around the free-standing altar for the Eucharistic Prayer.

    Mind you, this would entail removal of most of the Sacred Pews, objects like unto the Law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not...

    St Gregory of Nyssa shows what can be done, but something similar could be done in Other Places, if the will was there. I can't offhand recall any other MW Report from a church which offered a liturgy like this, but I may have missed something!

    Sadly a church near us pioneered this approach a few years ago. The liturgy was moving (in both senses) and effective. However the catchment area of the parish had been largely depleted and congregation numbers reflected that, so they have had to come to terms with the probability that the church is no longer viable.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Yes - I think I know which church it is, and I was sorry to learn that things had not gone as well as had been hoped.
  • Terry TeeTerry Tee Shipmate Posts: 15
    I don't want to rain on this parade, but I want to point out that this church is in, err, San Francisco. It's hard to think of any place more suitable for an experimental, liberal, liturgy that demands a high degree of participation from those attending. Elements of it might well work elsewhere. But when it comes to the whole ensemble as a model, as they say in Scotland, ah hae ma doots.
  • Box PewBox Pew Shipmate
    I know what you mean Terry, but San Franciso is these days a cauldron of innovation in many things and we do need such places. Changes in church practice often start in the hotbeds and slowly seep into general practice, filtered and modulated (think Methodism or Oxford Movement, and many others).

    I suspect there are insights of value at St Gregory of Nysa and in that spirit its on the itinerary for my next visit to SFO.
  • SiegfriedSiegfried Shipmate Posts: 42
    Is this the church that has previously been referred to as "Our Lady of the Dancing Queen"? If so, then it must have had a prior visit, as Bishop Finger seems to recall.
  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick Admin Emeritus
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    In a way, I'm surprised we haven't seen an MW Report from this amazing church before (or have we? I might have missed it...).

    You have indeed:

    http://ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2000/197Mystery.html
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Hookers_Trick wrote: »
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    In a way, I'm surprised we haven't seen an MW Report from this amazing church before (or have we? I might have missed it...).

    You have indeed:

    http://ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2000/197Mystery.html

    That link doesn’t seem to work
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    It’s missing a colon. Try this link.


  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Yes, that works, although my PC says it's Not Secure... :flushed:

    Thanks, anyway, @Hookers_Trick and @Nick Tamen .

    I think I did indeed miss that previous Report, but will enjoy reading it a little later on this evening - it's quite comprehensive!
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Shipmate
    It's on the "old" Ship. The report dates from 2000. Only reports from 2005 on were ported over to the "new" Ship.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Ah - I think it appeared before my time, which explains why I missed it!
    :wink:
  • SiegfriedSiegfried Shipmate Posts: 42
    Oh yeah--that's the one I remembered!
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