Cats

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Comments

  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    Some cats are happier about being indoors than others. Our two, although rescue cats, are apparently part Norwegian Forest and they hate being shut in for long. They do come in for the night, though they grumble loudly about this in summer and the younger one tries to pick the cat flap open with her claws (which she can sometimes manage if it’s on the “in only” setting).

    I am fairly sure we have now managed to convey to them that the wrath of God, ourselves and every other civilized person will descend upon them if they catch birds, but mice are fair game as long as the cats keep them outside.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Pomona wrote: »
    You could say the same thing about caring for any pet that has social needs (so, not reptiles/insects/arachnids/fish - but even they need caring for) - why get a pet if you're too busy to care for them? Surely your pet is part of your family? Nobody would suggest that it's unreasonable to expect dog owners to walk them every day.

    People raised in a family and social culture where cats go out, may have specifically chosen to have a cat because they believe the cat will have enrichment needed by going out and they believe they will have the time needed to spend with their pet in addition to that.

    If you told the average dog owner, who has taken on a dog in a family and social culture that expects a daily walk etc, that as of this year the expectation is now that any dog must be agility trained and/or able to be groomed to crufts standards - they’d look askance at you and might well tell you they don’t have time to do that. It doesn’t mean they don’t care about their pet. People make decisions, usually, about getting pets based partly on what they know the care expectations are, and what they know they can do.

    I got a cat, and in fact am getting two more on Monday, because I grew up with cats and I have always enjoyed their company and I believed I could meet the cats’ need even as a single person working full time.

    I didn’t expect to have to inject my current cat with insulin in a set regime twice a day for nine years, because he developed diabetes - nor spend the proportion of my salary needed on his specialist food, medicine and insurance that resulted from illness - but I have done that because I care very much about him and believe that having taken him into my home I have that responsibility to him. I just don’t happen to agree with you, on the basis of much the same information, about the risks and benefits of a cat having outside access in the UK specifically. It doesn’t mean I don’t care about either my cat or the environment, I have just reached a different conclusion from you.

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    I still don't know if my Grand-kittens will be outdoor or indoor cats. Their new flat is down a quiet lane with secluded gardens, so I suspect outdoor.

    But it wouldn't be too hard for them to be indoors as (I found out today on a video tour led by my granddaughter) every patio door and window has a fly screen.

    I don't mind either way. 🐈
  • Outdoor cats are more lean than indoor ones. They require marinating and extra BBQ sauce.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    :astonished:
  • Further to my post back up the thread a bit... The blessing cat was starting to look and act a bit strange. We called a friend who is involved with cat rescues and she duly showed up to confirm a dark premonition that had come upon me, "She's pregnant!" Some miserable b****** had also figured that out and had abandoned her, far from home. Meanwhile, this not being something we can deal with very well for very long, our friend is working her network for the inevitable new homes that will be needed, and has set up a feline maternity ward in the sunroom, with a sort of darkened tent, and lots of special food. More later...
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Further to my post back up the thread a bit... The blessing cat was starting to look and act a bit strange. We called a friend who is involved with cat rescues and she duly showed up to confirm a dark premonition that had come upon me, "She's pregnant!" Some miserable b****** had also figured that out and had abandoned her, far from home. Meanwhile, this not being something we can deal with very well for very long, our friend is working her network for the inevitable new homes that will be needed, and has set up a feline maternity ward in the sunroom, with a sort of darkened tent, and lots of special food. More later...

    God bless you for taking care of her after someone did such a cruel thing.

    (I do suggest getting her spayed after she has her babies, of course.)
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    edited June 23
    ChastMastr wrote: »

    God bless you for taking care of her after someone did such a cruel thing.

    (I do suggest getting her spayed after she has her babies, of course.)

    Amen dear ChastMastr!
    On a tangent, Mrs RR was delighted when we were joined in bed by a yowling very soggy pussy at 3 am last night. 'Why?' I asked. 'It means it's been raining' Mrs RR replied', 'Praise the Lord!'.
    She went back to sleep so pleased.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    My grandkitties live in kitty heaven. My daughter is at home and keeps busy with my granddaughter, the house and all that, and loves playing with the kitties and cuddling them. (They were her first 'children', after all!) Only Loki will sometimes go out the front door if it's left open to gather deliveries and such. They have a huge back patio with cat towers, toys and people to wait on them paw and foot.

    My Belle, as Queen of the Universe, thought she wanted to be outside and did push out the screen in the front window a couple of times. One of those times, she apparently shamed Jasmine into following her to freedom. Poor Jazzy was huddled under the bush that grew in front of the window in question. That was the one and only time she stepped out of the house. She was definitely an indoor girl.
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    So "kitty heaven" does not refer to a feline afterlife?
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    edited June 23
    I can't imagine how kitty afterlife could be much better than where the grandkitties live! The library has a wood tree with kitty steps up to ramps for them to climb. There are toys galore, and the staff (M&M...my kiddos) feed them twice a day. The outside patio is full of sunny places and shaded places. Plus, you know, toys and climbing things and many, many pets and cuddles.

    I wouldn't mind coming back as one of their cats after I die!!

    I forgot to mention that dear son-in-law works at home, so he is on cat loving duty too!
  • If you want the best possible interactive cat toy ever invented, a retractable steel measuring tape is it. The cat will recognise you as an incredibly talented conjuror and keep demanding more tricks by the magic snake. It works best with young cats, as old ones don't like to be outwitted and will show their annoyance.
  • Yes, Mochi would love that, she enjoys chasing string, etc. She also thinks the laser pen is fantastic and occasionally needs to examine it in your hand to see how it works.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin Emeritus, Epiphanies Host
    My cat learnt to hack the cat flap, also he will shoot out the front door between your legs given the opportunity.

    Mine does the same. He is always looking for a way to get outside and has been known to climb out of windows. Not great when it's upstairs.

    We tend to let him go out for his constitutionals during the day - and keep him in at night. The cat flap used to be open all the time so he could go out as and when but that stopped when we started finding other cats inside the house. The cat distribution system where we live appears to be malfunctioning.

    Indoor cats are a thing in the UK. If you adopt a cat with feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) then they have to be kept in all the time. It's fine as long as the cat has plenty to do inside and maybe a catio so they can enjoy the fresh air safely.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Tubbs wrote: »
    The cat flap used to be open all the time so he could go out as and when but that stopped when we started finding other cats inside the house.

    That reminds me of the time when my mom was puzzled as to why the cat food was disappearing so quickly. She finally found out that there were four extra furry feet coming through the cat door when it was dinner time. It was a river otter!

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Wow - that's exciting @jedijudy!
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    Our two rescue cats came ready with identity chps. Our catflap is 'intelligent' and can be programmed so it will only let in cats (or otters) with the correct ID. Clever!
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Doublethink but nobody would reasonably suggest that the expectation is now that any pet dog must be agility trained - this seems like a bit of a strange straw man and I wouldn't have expected this response from you. Spending an hour or so playing with your pet is not an unreasonable ask and is a normal thing to want to do with your pet. Playing with your pet (that you CHOSE to buy or adopt!) is not equivalent to spending hundreds of pounds on medical care. Getting a pet specifically because you think they can cope with benign neglect (which is what letting a cat free-roam all day is) is a pretty horrifying attitude - I'm well aware that it's a common attitude in the UK, that doesn't make it reasonable. Neither does it make people who want to change that attitude unreasonable for expecting more from pet owners. Because yes, taking on another living being who is reliant on you for their care is a big responsibility - it isn't reasonable to provide less care just because you really want a pet. If you cannot commit to spending time on your pet's enrichment the answer is to not get that pet, not to provide substandard care.

    You see this kind of attitude all the time with rodents and lagomorphs (the rabbit family), people seeing them as "starter pets" for example when they actually have very complex needs. Many people get guinea pigs thinking they can be kept with rabbits or kept in a garage or kept in a cage that is far too small. It's not unreasonable to suggest that it would be better to not have a pet than to take care of them badly. Pets are living creatures with needs of their own and not just extra cute belongings.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    But in my experience UK cat owners don’t see letting their cat roam as benign neglect, but rather as meeting the cat’s need/ desire to roam. Of course they may be mistaken about that need/desire, and there may be reasons why they are reluctant to abandon that belief.

    I don’t have skin in this game as although I like cats I am allergic to them. But I’ve certainly seen cats who have clean litter trays, good food, and plenty of indoor play and stimulation who nonetheless nag to be let outside.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 24
    [crosspost with brojames]

    The bit you are missing here - is that I don’t agree it’s benign neglect, nor would most UK cat owners who let their cats outdoors.

    Whether you realise it or not, what you are saying to me here is both patronising and offensive. It is patronising because you are speaking to me as if I don’t realise that pets are living creatures with needs of their own - our disagreement is essentially about how best to meet those needs. It is offensive because you are stating I don’t care about my pets’ welfare - which is not true.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Perhaps now is the time for me to ask: Have you all seen the documentary Kedi? It concerns the street cats in Istanbul, "who live free but have complicated relationships with the people themselves." Cats are wonderful creatures and this documentary is a wonderful tribute to them.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    jedijudy wrote: »

    That reminds me of the time when my mom was puzzled as to why the cat food was disappearing so quickly. She finally found out that there were four extra furry feet coming through the cat door when it was dinner time. It was a river otter!

    *squeees at the notion of a friendly visiting otter *

    St. Cuthbert would be proud!
  • TubbsTubbs Admin Emeritus, Epiphanies Host
    jedijudy wrote: »

    That reminds me of the time when my mom was puzzled as to why the cat food was disappearing so quickly. She finally found out that there were four extra furry feet coming through the cat door when it was dinner time. It was a river otter!

    Wow! That's lovely.

    Our two visiting bengal cats aren't interested in the food - as that doesn't stay around long enough to be stolen - but in going upstairs to lie on the beds. The resident cat does not like this.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    *squeees at the notion of a friendly visiting otter *
    Double squeee (from a safe distance).
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Double squeee (from a safe distance).

    Triple squeeee
  • kingsfoldkingsfold Shipmate
    edited June 25

    Triple squeeee

    Continuing the otter tangent....
    Some years ago, I was at a group event where the ice breaker was to think of an animal/your favourite animal. The group then had to arrange themselves in increasing (or decreasing!) by size of their chosen animal, and this was to be achieved by making the noise of said animal.

    Cue two of us wandering around trying to work out where we fitted in by the noises around us, as neither of us knew/could remember what an otter sounded like. There was a somewhat comic moment where we were both in roughly the right place, then looked at each other admitting we didn't know what our animal sounded like.

    "So what are you then?"
    "An otter - what are you"
    "Otter"
  • kingsfold wrote: »

    Cue two of us wandering around trying to work out where we fitted in by the noises around us, as neither of us knew/could remember what an otter sounded like. There was a somewhat comic moment where we were both in roughly the right place, then looked at each other admitting we didn't know what our animal sounded like.

    "So what are you then?"
    "An otter - what are you"
    "Otter"

    If I recall from my Youtube feed, they sound like squeak toys. Uncannily like squeak toys.

    As I type this the puss on one of the terraces in the calle above me is singing the protest song of his people. Every day we get a 15 minute concert when his human leaves for work.

    AFF
  • EigonEigon Shipmate
    I once heard a strange whistling while out for a walk by the River Wye. Turned out to be a baby otter on a sandbank, whistling for its mum!
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Otters are so adorable! More so outdoors however, rather than trotting through the house!
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 26
    Some people do keep them as pets, more of a thing in Japan I think. But in general I believe it is thought unwise.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    My cat Aroha is an inside/outside cat. Out before about 11 a.m then in for a sleep and out again about 3 to 4 and in for tea at 6p.m. the she's in for the night. In summer she will be out later.

    I need to get another wand toy as she killed her last one, but she loves ping-pong balls and the odd bit of kibble thrown for her to catch or chase. She and Spooky, the black cat from along the road sometimes chase each other around but I often come home and find them both sleeping on the potting bench in the sun, not entwined, but close.
  • Hedgehog wrote: »
    Perhaps now is the time for me to ask: Have you all seen the documentary Kedi? It concerns the street cats in Istanbul, "who live free but have complicated relationships with the people themselves." Cats are wonderful creatures and this documentary is a wonderful tribute to them.

    We just watched "Kedi: The Cats of an Ancient City", with our new arrival watching it intently with us. It is very good indeed - thank you for the recommendation. Very affirming for those whose souls are intertwined with those of cats.

  • We just watched "Kedi: The Cats of an Ancient City", with our new arrival watching it intently with us. It is very good indeed - thank you for the recommendation. Very affirming for those whose souls are intertwined with those of cats.

    Does the new kitten have a name yet? Or will that cement your bond for eternity?

    AFF

  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Today is the day I properly introduce my original cat to my new kittens, (we've been scent swapping for a week), I'm a bit nervous to be honest.

    Original cat has lived with another cat once before - but that was 14 years ago (and that cat was an older neutered tom) - I am hoping he won't feel too threatened because the kittens are so much smaller than him he will still be very obviously godfather cat. And they are females.

  • Does the new kitten have a name yet? Or will that cement your bond for eternity?

    AFF

    Yes - we are not yet sure what the immediate future holds for her, but decided that she is Myrtle, as she was wandering through the myrtle in the woods beside the road.

  • Yes - we are not yet sure what the immediate future holds for her, but decided that she is Myrtle, as she was wandering through the myrtle in the woods beside the road.

    Adorbs! I recall on the drive to your place the ground cover seemed quite dense in the area, didn't know it was myrtle though. It's a perfect name.

    AFF

  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Today is the day I properly introduce my original cat to my new kittens, (we've been scent swapping for a week), I'm a bit nervous to be honest.

    Original cat has lived with another cat once before - but that was 14 years ago (and that cat was an older neutered tom) - I am hoping he won't feel too threatened because the kittens are so much smaller than him he will still be very obviously godfather cat. And they are females.

    Grandpa Mason would be proud, and I trust is looking down from on high on such things approvingly. (He’s worth looking up on YouTube… God bless him and RIP!)
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Doublethink I'm sorry that you feel patronised and offended, it wasn't my intention - I did mean all the "you" statements as "general you" statements and not personal ones and I'm sorry that wasn't clearer.

    I'm aware that people with outdoor and indoor/outdoor cats love their cats. Lots of people love their pets while doing things which are not ideal for those pets - for example, the muesli type of guinea pig food is actually not a good thing to feed them as it leads to selective feeding (they should be fed the nugget type of dry food instead). This is a bigger problem for guinea pigs than for other rodents and for rabbits, as guinea pigs can't manufacture their own vitamin C and dry food is often an important source of it for them. My grandma had a budgie that she loved, but her love didn't make it ideal that she only had one (like guinea pigs, budgies are inherently social animals that need to be adopted in pairs at minimum). Me saying that isn't saying that my grandma didn't love her budgie or was a bad person.

    I grew up with indoor/outdoor cats my whole life so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with it - I also had cats that died wholly unnecessary and preventable deaths because they were allowed to free roam (I was not in charge of that decision so this is not out of a sense of guilt). Unfortunately, love doesn't make cars less deadly. Even without all the other arguments about cats killing wildlife etc, cats being hit by cars is totally preventable and I just can't understand how the risk is worth it. Secure catios or secure gardens/balconies still allow outdoor access - free roaming is the problem, not outdoor access generally.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    It’s a balance between risk of quality of life, just as it is for people who risk rta’s by using roads. Obviously, balance of risk will vary depending on where you live and your cat’s abilities and health.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    I guess for me the difference is that a pet is wholly dependent on their owner in a way that their owner is not dependent on them. People would be rightly castigated for letting a toddler free roam by themselves, even if the toddler enjoyed it, because they can't keep themselves safe like an adult can. Going for a walk with a toddler or letting them run around a secure garden would be different.

    Again, the issue is free roaming not outdoor access - I totally get that some cats want to be able to spend time outside and that's not something I'm arguing against. But nobody would think it's OK to let even farm dogs or other dogs that are usually outside to free-roam, and being outside is their job. Likewise the idea that not allowing cats to free-roam is unnatural (when it's for their safety) is not a standard applied to any other pet. I do think that perhaps the (false) idea of cats as somehow aloof and not affectionate like dogs are (not suggesting that anyone here is saying this) has led to the cultural idea that cats are less of an indoor animal. But in countries where stray and/or wild dogs are normal, dogs don't roam any less than cats do.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    But nobody would think it's OK to let even farm dogs or other dogs that are usually outside to free-roam, and being outside is their job.

    I'm not sure what you consider free roaming in this sentence. I have relatives who farm, and their dogs spend time outside unsupervised.
  • Ruth wrote: »

    I'm not sure what you consider free roaming in this sentence. I have relatives who farm, and their dogs spend time outside unsupervised.

    There were a few families around my parents' farm who severed lots for their kids to build homes on, and all of those families had small kids and allowed their dogs to roam free.

    Trouble was, my parents were raising purebred cattle and the dogs would get together in a pack and run the cattle, which is very dangerous for the cows and their calves.

    My father had words with the neighbors and warned them to fence their dogs. When that had no effect, he would just get out the .22 gauge rifle and drop any dog he saw on the property and haul its carcass back to the scrub bush for the crows and buzzards to clean up. Eventually we noticed fences going up.

    Here in Spain we have the phenomenon of what I call "the random perro" - a dog wandering the street with no collar or tag. Most of the time they are just out from one of the casitas on a pee break, but when there are three or four together, then we call the policia local.

    Cats are one matter. Dogs and coyotes in a pack are another.

    AFF


  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Yeah, that would be a real problem. My relatives grow fruit, as do all the surrounding farmers. Dogs present no menace to peach trees! And I doubt their dogs leave their property.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Yeah, that would be a real problem. My relatives grow fruit, as do all the surrounding farmers. Dogs present no menace to peach trees! And I doubt their dogs leave their property.

    I think it's good to have dogs free roaming the orchard, if it's well fenced. Keeps the fruit poachers at bay. Free range humans can be the biggest nuisance.

    We're surrounded here by mango and avocado orchards with high fences and they all have free roaming dogs that sleep all day and are active at night. Fortunately they are far enough outside town they don't disturb.

    But there's one in particular I have named "Barky the All Night Wonderdog". His stamina is unbelievable. He can outbark every dog in a ten kilometer radius.

    AFF
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    You seem to be projecting your local experience upon a very different landscape. Orchards, vineyards and fields in the California Central Valley are typically not fenced. I've never heard of theft being a problem. They're far too large to be protected by a family's roaming dogs anyway, even the relatively small organic farms like the one my relatives own.

    The vineyards around the area where I grew up in the Central Coast are fenced, though - it's primarily cattle ranch country, so fences seem to be expected. A little further south where the land is far more fertile and they grow strawberries, the fields aren't fenced.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited June 29
    .
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited June 29
    Some dogs are able to free roam.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_dogs_in_Moscow

    But our British pet dogs are not so savvy and would be in danger.

    Unlike cats, which are far cleverer and more independent. As I said up thread - our street is cat city and all are happy and safe.

    My Ted, thankfully, doesn't know what cats sound like - so he doesn't react when two are having a territorial yowling match! 🐾 🐈
  • Ruth wrote: »
    You seem to be projecting your local experience upon a very different landscape. Orchards, vineyards and fields in the California Central Valley are typically not fenced. I've never heard of theft being a problem. They're far too large to be protected by a family's roaming dogs anyway, even the relatively small organic farms like the one my relatives own.

    The vineyards around the area where I grew up in the Central Coast are fenced, though - it's primarily cattle ranch country, so fences seem to be expected. A little further south where the land is far more fertile and they grow strawberries, the fields aren't fenced.

    I guess they don't need to keep people out the same way they need to here.

    AFF
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Theft happens, but the kind of fencing they'd have to put up that would actually keep people out in a place like this (Google street view in rural Fresno county) probably isn't worth the cost and inconvenience.
  • SparrowSparrow Shipmate
    Our cats have almost all enjoyed the outdoors at all times of the year. (The exception was one taken over from friend that looked and acted like the Queen Mother). Whenever we had two cats it was wonderful to watch them having fun outside, exploring and climbing trees for no obvious purpose other than fun. When one cat lost his eyesight he was inseparable from a kitten who became his eyes, and they still ran everywhere together. Another cat, Leonides, was a self-appointed therapy cat who stayed close when he was needed, but went out exploring the neighbourhood with Griffon when he wanted a break. Griffon would cross the road to visit his friend and was lucky to live until he had an untreatable medical emergency. He was an exceptional cat, and I had a sense of bereavement when he died that still astonishes me. He was a Good Cat.

    - "a very fine cat, a very fine cat indeed." (Samuel Johnson's cat Hodge)
    -
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