It's called *Communion by Extension* in most of the C of E, I think, although in this Diocese it is AFAIK only to be used in emergency (e.g. the sudden indisposition of the priest, with no chance of finding a substitute quickly), and the Bishop's Chaplain must be informed immediately.
This ruling is not always strictly observed, I understand, and those parishes under alternative episcopal oversight (the Society/Forward-in-Faith places) find that their Bishop (rather than the Diocesan) is often rather more tolerant.
It's called *Communion by Extension* in most of the C of E, I think, although in this Diocese it is AFAIK only to be used in emergency (e.g. the sudden indisposition of the priest, with no chance of finding a substitute quickly), and the Bishop's Chaplain must be informed immediately.
Extension is when you consecrate the elements at a service, and then transport them elsewhere for a service that is functionally an "extension" of the parent mass. It's not quite the same as communion from the reserved sacrament (the elements are consecrated, stored in an aumbry / pyx / whatever, and then used in a communion service led by an authorized lay person at a later date.)
My understanding is that SCAE would most often include communion from the reserved sacrament.
Interesting. However a (say) 6pm Mass is definitely before sunset in the summer!
Before liturgical reforms in the RC Sundays and the most important feast days began at midday, so that before the reforms of Pius XII the Easter ' vigil' could begin any time after noon.
Because people were expected to rest from servile work on the holy days of obligation as well as Sundays, there would have been no working after midday either. The number of such holy days varied both by region and over time but could easily have been somewhere north of forty, so the average medieval peasant would have has the equivalent of 60 - 80 days off in addition to Sundays. Landowners were predictably against this particular practice and Urban VII was persuaded to limit the number of holy days of obligation to 36.
...and the Bishop's Chaplain must be informed immediately.
May I ask what a Bishop's Chaplain is? I know the dictionary definition of those 2 words but putting them together I have no idea!
In Anglican dioceses with money to burn the Bishop has a (usually recently ordained) priest to assist them, a sort of aide de camp.
Just so. TBH, I'm not sure if our present Diocesan has a Chaplain, but the previous one did. His Chaplain was often to be seen about the Diocese, taking services during vacancies, and making herself useful (whilst keeping an eye on the vacant parish, no doubt )
A Bishop’s Chaplain keeps his ear to the ground and reports upward. Probably the first step on the promotion ladder. One I knew certainly became a Bishop.
Sometimes a Bishop’s Chaplain may be an older priest with good knowledge of the diocese. Bishop’s Chaplains often have significant admin and diary responsibilities.
A Bishop’s Chaplain keeps his ear to the ground and reports upward. Probably the first step on the promotion ladder. One I knew certainly became a Bishop.
It certainly used to be an early step on the road to preferment. Whether that is still the case I couldn't say.
Whether young or old, a Bishop's Chaplain is a useful resource - not only to parishes requiring the services of a priest, but also to Bishops requiring information...
Sorry - we seem to have strayed from the subject of Family Masses/Family Services, or whatever.
Interesting. However a (say) 6pm Mass is definitely before sunset in the summer!
Before liturgical reforms in the RC Sundays and the most important feast days began at midday, so that before the reforms of Pius XII the Easter ' vigil' could begin any time after noon.
Because people were expected to rest from servile work on the holy days of obligation as well as Sundays, there would have been no working after midday either. The number of such holy days varied both by region and over time but could easily have been somewhere north of forty, so the average medieval peasant would have has the equivalent of 60 - 80 days off in addition to Sundays. Landowners were predictably against this particular practice and Urban VII was persuaded to limit the number of holy days of obligation to 36.
A Bishop’s Chaplain keeps his ear to the ground and reports upward. Probably the first step on the promotion ladder. One I knew certainly became a Bishop.
It certainly used to be an early step on the road to preferment. Whether that is still the case I couldn't say.
Having an ear to the ground, reporting upwards and stepping out on the road - sounds as if candidates need to be contortionists!
A Bishop’s Chaplain keeps his ear to the ground and reports upward. Probably the first step on the promotion ladder. One I knew certainly became a Bishop.
It certainly used to be an early step on the road to preferment. Whether that is still the case I couldn't say.
Having an ear to the ground, reporting upwards and stepping out on the road - sounds as if candidates need to be contortionists!
Well yes, that has traditionally been a valuable skill for prospective bishops. Focus of unity and all that.
In medieval times the holiness of Sunday was recognised as from approximately midday.
(Everything would be approximative as no-one would have a digital watch) and the afternoon would theoretically be the time for preparing for the first Vespers.
There were about35 to 40 of these days in the ecclesiastical year,not counting Sundays.
I wouldn't be too sure that peasants were actually freed from their labours,even on Feast days.
By the end of the medieval period most of these days were no longer considered as 'of obligation' and the Roman Church recognised only about 10 days 'of obligation'.
In recent years in local agreements with the Vatican even those 10 days are cut down to about four at the most.
In France Ascension,Assumption,All Saints and Christmas
In Italy Epiphany,Assumption,All Saints,Immaculate Conception and Christmas.
In Denmark Ascension and Christmas
In the countries I mentioned above these are also public holidays.
In other countries e.g. the UK most of the Church holy days are not public holidays and will be unknown to the general public.
Interesting. However a (say) 6pm Mass is definitely before sunset in the summer!
Before liturgical reforms in the RC Sundays and the most important feast days began at midday, so that before the reforms of Pius XII the Easter ' vigil' could begin any time after noon.
Because people were expected to rest from servile work on the holy days of obligation as well as Sundays, there would have been no working after midday either. The number of such holy days varied both by region and over time but could easily have been somewhere north of forty, so the average medieval peasant would have has the equivalent of 60 - 80 days off in addition to Sundays. Landowners were predictably against this particular practice and Urban VII was persuaded to limit the number of holy days of obligation to 36.
Novus Ordo? I read it as "New Orleans" for some reason.
I feel that particular archdiocese has more to worry about than mass times
How does that square with the ancient practice of major Feasts starting with First Vespers the early evening before?
I think because the vigil mass is distinct from the mass of the feast itself. In more modern usage we call the Saturday evening mass a " vigil', though correctly it is an anticipated mass, since generally Sundays didn't have vigils as such.
The ' vigil' mass for a greater feast would have been celebrated on the morning before the actual feast, then vespers presumably anytime after midday, the festal mass on the morning of the feast itself with second vespers later the same day.
My reference to the Easter vigil is potentially misleading because there are no first vespers on Holy Saturday, though at one time here was very brief service a lauds added post communion.
Sorry - we seem to have strayed from the subject of Family Masses/Family Services, or whatever.
Yes, we have rather. Please continue to discuss Family Masses/Services as compared to other sorts on this thread and feel free to start new threads about these tangents.
I've noticed that there are several churches mentioned in this thread where the emphasis is on including as many people as possible - of all ages - within the usual Sunday service, whether that be one based on a formal liturgy, or not.
It's what Our Place does at Sunday Mass - there are few, if any, children attending, anyway - and the older I get, the more it seems to me that the church's best plan is simply to stick with what Jesus commanded, and to meet people where they are, and not where the church might want them to be.
To me, brought up in the C of E, this means Baptism, the Eucharist, and pastoral care. Quite how an individual parish might do this is obviously dependent on demographics, human resources, finances, and various other circumstances, but concentrating on fancy Stuff simply to get bums on pews (the Archdemon's usual aim) may be missing the point.
I agree @Bishops Finger . I see nothing to be gained in forcing congregations to submit to dumbed down services designed to appeal to those who aren’t there.
I agree @Bishops Finger . I see nothing to be gained in forcing congregations to submit to dumbed down services designed to appeal to those who aren’t there.
Indeed, and those who don't like the dumbed-down services may well soon make noises like a hoop, and roll off.
...and the Bishop's Chaplain must be informed immediately.
May I ask what a Bishop's Chaplain is? I know the dictionary definition of those 2 words but putting them together I have no idea!
I suspect there are as many definitions of the role as there are bishops and/or chaplains. Those with long memories for TV sitcoms in black and white will remember the Reverend Noote, played brilliantly by the late Derek Nimmo. Subconsciously at least probably based on Mr Slope in Barchester Towers.
I had heard that diocesan bishops in the C of E were given the option of having either a chauffeur, or a chaplain. Maybe I was misinformed. I would have thought the chaplain's role called for extreme quantities of tact, diplomacy, pastoral sensitivity and above all a sense of humour. A friend of mine is about to take up such a position for which he is admirably qualified, but many or most priests would find it frustrating..
Comments
This ruling is not always strictly observed, I understand, and those parishes under alternative episcopal oversight (the Society/Forward-in-Faith places) find that their Bishop (rather than the Diocesan) is often rather more tolerant.
Extension is when you consecrate the elements at a service, and then transport them elsewhere for a service that is functionally an "extension" of the parent mass. It's not quite the same as communion from the reserved sacrament (the elements are consecrated, stored in an aumbry / pyx / whatever, and then used in a communion service led by an authorized lay person at a later date.)
My understanding is that SCAE would most often include communion from the reserved sacrament.
May I ask what a Bishop's Chaplain is? I know the dictionary definition of those 2 words but putting them together I have no idea!
Before liturgical reforms in the RC Sundays and the most important feast days began at midday, so that before the reforms of Pius XII the Easter ' vigil' could begin any time after noon.
Because people were expected to rest from servile work on the holy days of obligation as well as Sundays, there would have been no working after midday either. The number of such holy days varied both by region and over time but could easily have been somewhere north of forty, so the average medieval peasant would have has the equivalent of 60 - 80 days off in addition to Sundays. Landowners were predictably against this particular practice and Urban VII was persuaded to limit the number of holy days of obligation to 36.
.
I feel that particular archdiocese has more to worry about than mass times
In Anglican dioceses with money to burn the Bishop has a (usually recently ordained) priest to assist them, a sort of aide de camp.
Just so. TBH, I'm not sure if our present Diocesan has a Chaplain, but the previous one did. His Chaplain was often to be seen about the Diocese, taking services during vacancies, and making herself useful (whilst keeping an eye on the vacant parish, no doubt
It certainly used to be an early step on the road to preferment. Whether that is still the case I couldn't say.
Sorry - we seem to have strayed from the subject of Family Masses/Family Services, or whatever.
How does that square with the ancient practice of major Feasts starting with First Vespers the early evening before?
Having an ear to the ground, reporting upwards and stepping out on the road - sounds as if candidates need to be contortionists!
Well yes, that has traditionally been a valuable skill for prospective bishops. Focus of unity and all that.
(Everything would be approximative as no-one would have a digital watch) and the afternoon would theoretically be the time for preparing for the first Vespers.
There were about35 to 40 of these days in the ecclesiastical year,not counting Sundays.
I wouldn't be too sure that peasants were actually freed from their labours,even on Feast days.
By the end of the medieval period most of these days were no longer considered as 'of obligation' and the Roman Church recognised only about 10 days 'of obligation'.
In recent years in local agreements with the Vatican even those 10 days are cut down to about four at the most.
In France Ascension,Assumption,All Saints and Christmas
In Italy Epiphany,Assumption,All Saints,Immaculate Conception and Christmas.
In Denmark Ascension and Christmas
In the countries I mentioned above these are also public holidays.
In other countries e.g. the UK most of the Church holy days are not public holidays and will be unknown to the general public.
I think because the vigil mass is distinct from the mass of the feast itself. In more modern usage we call the Saturday evening mass a " vigil', though correctly it is an anticipated mass, since generally Sundays didn't have vigils as such.
The ' vigil' mass for a greater feast would have been celebrated on the morning before the actual feast, then vespers presumably anytime after midday, the festal mass on the morning of the feast itself with second vespers later the same day.
My reference to the Easter vigil is potentially misleading because there are no first vespers on Holy Saturday, though at one time here was very brief service a lauds added post communion.
Yes, we have rather. Please continue to discuss Family Masses/Services as compared to other sorts on this thread and feel free to start new threads about these tangents.
Nenya - Ecclesiantics Host
It's what Our Place does at Sunday Mass - there are few, if any, children attending, anyway - and the older I get, the more it seems to me that the church's best plan is simply to stick with what Jesus commanded, and to meet people where they are, and not where the church might want them to be.
To me, brought up in the C of E, this means Baptism, the Eucharist, and pastoral care. Quite how an individual parish might do this is obviously dependent on demographics, human resources, finances, and various other circumstances, but concentrating on fancy Stuff simply to get bums on pews (the Archdemon's usual aim) may be missing the point.
YMMV.
Yes. Everyone's context varies, so it's important to do whatever you can do as well as you can. IYSWIM.
Indeed, and those who don't like the dumbed-down services may well soon make noises like a hoop, and roll off.
I suspect there are as many definitions of the role as there are bishops and/or chaplains. Those with long memories for TV sitcoms in black and white will remember the Reverend Noote, played brilliantly by the late Derek Nimmo. Subconsciously at least probably based on Mr Slope in Barchester Towers.
I had heard that diocesan bishops in the C of E were given the option of having either a chauffeur, or a chaplain. Maybe I was misinformed. I would have thought the chaplain's role called for extreme quantities of tact, diplomacy, pastoral sensitivity and above all a sense of humour. A friend of mine is about to take up such a position for which he is admirably qualified, but many or most priests would find it frustrating..