Whatever his political views turn out to be, Thomas Jacob Sanford is gonna be pretty hard for Republicans to spin as a "woke socialist girlie-boy who hates everything America stands for". I suspect they're already re-writing their speeches to read "just a lone nut".
I think you underestimate the capacity of the far right propaganda machine. There's a reason "swift boating" entered the political lexicon and things have only got worse in the 2 decades since.
True. OTOH, don't underestimate the visual effect. John Kerry didn't have a martial appearance about him, and for all intents and purposes came off as a rather nerdy civilian. Sanford presents quite differently, and unlike with Kerry, the only images people will have of him are the photos.
But we can split the difference and say that if Republicans DO try to spin Sanford as a woke leftist, they probably won't use the photo of him with the dead deer in his pick-up truck. Maybe his lawn signs, if the Google Street View image showing "Trump/Vance Stop" turns out to be authentic.
Right now, I'm leaning toward the theory(floated elsewhere) that he was a right-winger who didn't know much about Mormons, and the attack on the church was revenge for the killing of Charlie Kirk. Or maybe he had some personal reason to hate religion(eg. God failed to prevent his son's illness), and targeted that church 'cuz it just happened to be nearby.
Yes, California has civil grand juries as well as criminal grand juries, two separate things -- the same body does not serve both functions.
Civil grand juries are independent watchdog bodies that look at their county governments and cities and agencies within their counties, including the prisons. They also look into citizen complaints abou all of those. In Los Angeles County it's a full-time job that lasts a year and pays $80/day (less than minimum wage -- you gotta be really public spirited to sign up for this).
Criminal grand juries in California do function the way federal ones do -- it's just that we don't use them as much. The vast majority of felony cases go through the preliminary hearing process where it's a judge determining if the prosecutor has enough evidence to go to trial and the defendant is present and their lawyer can participate.
In certain smaller counes there is only one grand jury which handle both criminal and civil matters. While there is no exhaustive list, Placer County, Madera County
and Plumas County have just one grand jury. Point is, it is allowed in California law.
you gotta be really public spirited to sign up for this.
I don't believe this is voluntary. One is summoned to jury duty by the Superior Court.
Right now, I'm leaning toward the theory(floated elsewhere) that he was a right-winger who didn't know much about Mormons, and the attack on the church was revenge for the killing of Charlie Kirk. Or maybe he had some personal reason to hate religion(eg. God failed to prevent his son's illness), and targeted that church 'cuz it just happened to be nearby.
According to a municipal political candidate who had spoken to Sanford a short while before the shooting, he expressed anti-Mormon views, from what sounds like a conservative Christian perspective, and also mentioned having lived briefly in Utah a few years prior. There also seems to be an indication that he supported right-wing causes(eg. an abortion ban), and did indeed have
And while the Trump/Vance sign was indeed hung above a Stop sign, it looks more like that was just because it was a convenient place to put it, rather than some clever juxtaposition.
Long and the short, looks like right-wing, Christian-on-Christian sectarian violence. And at least on social media, I have noticed a drop in people trying to claim Sanford was left-wing.
The thing that I don't get about grand juries is why they are so one-sided, why they only hear the prosecutor's case for probable cause and not the defendant's. The defendant isn't even present. The process seems set up to mislead.
Technically, “probable cause” has to do with arrests and search warrants.
The purpose of the grand jury, at least theoretically, is to be a check on a prosecutor’s decision as to whether charges should be brought. The grand jury’s task is to decide whether the prosecution has sufficient evidence of guilt to send the case to trial, or whether the prosecution can’t make a convincing case to start with. So being two-sided isn’t really in the remit; it’s supposed to act as a green light or a red light for the prosecution.
I think my problem is I understand the system in California but not the federal system.
In California most felony cases go through the steps of 1. Charges filed, 2. Preliminary hearing before a judge, where the prosecutor presents evidence and the defendant's lawyer pokes holes in the case and the burden of proof is probable cause, 3. If the judge finds that burden is met, the case goes to trial before a jury. Grand juries are supposed to be for keeping high-profile cases out of the news before they go to trial to protect evidence or shield vulnerable witnesses, or for weak cases.
So I think my familiarity with the California state system makes the federal system look weird to me. And frankly, unfair.
Thanks for this. The California system you describe is unfamiliar to me (our system is similar to the federal system), and I can see how that system makes the federal system look one-sided to you.
To me, it’s a little bit the opposite, in that having the defendant try to poke holes in the case before the case goes to trial seems to unnecessarily encourage the defendant to show their cards earlier than they might want to. But I’ll readily admit that may be solely because of unfamiliarity to me, not because of any merit or lack of merit to the system.
And I should walk back my comment that “technically, ‘probable cause’ has to do with arrests and search warrants.” Those are the contexts in which I typically heard “probable cause” used, but as I thought about it, I realized I over-stated and it could be used here in the indictment context as well.
In any event, the grand jury’s role here is to ensure that the prosecutor has evidence showing that a crime was committed and that it’s more likely than not that the defendant committed it. The defendant’s opportunity to shoot holes in the evidence come at trial, when the burden of proof for the prosecution is beyond a reasonable doubt.
Long and the short, looks like right-wing, Christian-on-Christian sectarian violence. And at least on social media, I have noticed a drop in people trying to claim Sanford was left-wing.
Reading through the back-and-forth self-exonerations in YouTube debates, it strikes me that very few leftists, when presented with the argument that a conservative church seems more likely something leftists would attack, have responded with "But you have to keep in mind that a lot of fundamentalists hate Mormonism as well."
SNOBBERY ALERT
I think it was the marxist theoretician Terry Eagleton who observed some time before or during the New Atheist debates, that progressives in particular tended to have an abysmal knowledge of theology, and that this hinders their ability to properly analyze culture.
(Eagleton himself, I believe, came to his mature politics via left-wing political Catholicism, so might be a little biased.)
@Nick Tamen, when I sat on a jury for a felony case, the preliminary hearing was one of the things that tripped up the prosecutor. Things said at the prelim can be brought up at the trial. The main witness/accuser had to tell her story three times - to the cops, at the prelim, and at trial - and there were glaring discrepancies. It wasn't the only problem with the case, but it was a serious one.
you gotta be really public spirited to sign up for this.
I don't believe this is voluntary. One is summoned to jury duty by the Superior Court.
In Los Angeles County people are summoned to serve on criminal grand juries just like regular jury duty, and each jury serves for a month. To be on the civil grand jury, where people serve a full year, people apply.
Also, Plumas County doesn't have the same grand jury for both civil and criminal matters. It always has a civil grand jury, and a criminal grand jury is empaneled when they need one. I didn't look up the other counties you mentioned, but I'd bet a small sum that they have separate bodies as well, as the work of the two are very different.
All of this information can be verified on county court websites.
Also, Plumas County doesn't have the same grand jury for both civil and criminal matters. It always has a civil grand jury, and a criminal grand jury is empaneled when they need one. I didn't look up the other counties you mentioned, but I'd bet a small sum that they have separate bodies as well, as the work of the two are very different.
On the other hand, Madera's Grand Jury is impaneled as a civil grand jury. However, in the frequently asked questions about whether a Grand Jury can investigate criminal cases, it answers that while it is possible for a grand jury to do both usually a separate grand jury will be impaneled. https://www.madera.courts.ca.gov/online-services/jury-grand-jury-information/grand-jury
The Pluma Grand Jury site does say its grand jury is for civil cases only, though, as you say.
One point we overlooked: The Grand Jury may receive and investigate complaints by individuals, including private citizens, local government officials, and employees, regarding action and performances of public officials.
And, then, today, he posted an AI altered video of Jefferis and Schumer, Jefferies wearing a sombrero and Schumer calling all elected Democrats sh^t
When he announced he was sending troops to Portland, he referred to seeing videos of destruction in Portland. Those videos were apparently from the 2020 riots after the death of George Floyd. Trump apparently thinks they were very recent videos.
I know what my kids would be doing if I were posting such garbage on my social media. Family Intervention time. The keys to the car would be taken away, and they would be placing me in a dementia ward.
There were a bunch of other freakish things that happened over the weekend, but it is getting past my bed time.
@Nick Tamen, when I sat on a jury for a felony case, the preliminary hearing was one of the things that tripped up the prosecutor. Things said at the prelim can be brought up at the trial. The main witness/accuser had to tell her story three times - to the cops, at the prelim, and at trial - and there were glaring discrepancies. It wasn't the only problem with the case, but it was a serious one.
Interesting. Here the defense would have access to any statements made to police, but not to the grand jury.
I wonder where California’s system came from, and if there are other states that use it or something like it. Another reminder that the US has 52+ judicial systems, and very few blanket assumptions, beyond requirements of the US Constitution, can be made about how things work.
Whoever said the meeting of the Senior officers could have been handled electronically, turns out it was true. Hegseth: Get in shape men. If I can do calisthenics, you can too. Trump: let's train our men in our cities. How many billions did this cost?
Comments
True. OTOH, don't underestimate the visual effect. John Kerry didn't have a martial appearance about him, and for all intents and purposes came off as a rather nerdy civilian. Sanford presents quite differently, and unlike with Kerry, the only images people will have of him are the photos.
But we can split the difference and say that if Republicans DO try to spin Sanford as a woke leftist, they probably won't use the photo of him with the dead deer in his pick-up truck. Maybe his lawn signs, if the Google Street View image showing "Trump/Vance Stop" turns out to be authentic.
Right now, I'm leaning toward the theory(floated elsewhere) that he was a right-winger who didn't know much about Mormons, and the attack on the church was revenge for the killing of Charlie Kirk. Or maybe he had some personal reason to hate religion(eg. God failed to prevent his son's illness), and targeted that church 'cuz it just happened to be nearby.
In certain smaller counes there is only one grand jury which handle both criminal and civil matters. While there is no exhaustive list, Placer County, Madera County
and Plumas County have just one grand jury. Point is, it is allowed in California law.
I don't believe this is voluntary. One is summoned to jury duty by the Superior Court.
According to a municipal political candidate who had spoken to Sanford a short while before the shooting, he expressed anti-Mormon views, from what sounds like a conservative Christian perspective, and also mentioned having lived briefly in Utah a few years prior. There also seems to be an indication that he supported right-wing causes(eg. an abortion ban), and did indeed have
And while the Trump/Vance sign was indeed hung above a Stop sign, it looks more like that was just because it was a convenient place to put it, rather than some clever juxtaposition.
Long and the short, looks like right-wing, Christian-on-Christian sectarian violence. And at least on social media, I have noticed a drop in people trying to claim Sanford was left-wing.
To me, it’s a little bit the opposite, in that having the defendant try to poke holes in the case before the case goes to trial seems to unnecessarily encourage the defendant to show their cards earlier than they might want to. But I’ll readily admit that may be solely because of unfamiliarity to me, not because of any merit or lack of merit to the system.
And I should walk back my comment that “technically, ‘probable cause’ has to do with arrests and search warrants.” Those are the contexts in which I typically heard “probable cause” used, but as I thought about it, I realized I over-stated and it could be used here in the indictment context as well.
In any event, the grand jury’s role here is to ensure that the prosecutor has evidence showing that a crime was committed and that it’s more likely than not that the defendant committed it. The defendant’s opportunity to shoot holes in the evidence come at trial, when the burden of proof for the prosecution is beyond a reasonable doubt.
Reading through the back-and-forth self-exonerations in YouTube debates, it strikes me that very few leftists, when presented with the argument that a conservative church seems more likely something leftists would attack, have responded with "But you have to keep in mind that a lot of fundamentalists hate Mormonism as well."
SNOBBERY ALERT
I think it was the marxist theoretician Terry Eagleton who observed some time before or during the New Atheist debates, that progressives in particular tended to have an abysmal knowledge of theology, and that this hinders their ability to properly analyze culture.
(Eagleton himself, I believe, came to his mature politics via left-wing political Catholicism, so might be a little biased.)
In Los Angeles County people are summoned to serve on criminal grand juries just like regular jury duty, and each jury serves for a month. To be on the civil grand jury, where people serve a full year, people apply.
Also, Plumas County doesn't have the same grand jury for both civil and criminal matters. It always has a civil grand jury, and a criminal grand jury is empaneled when they need one. I didn't look up the other counties you mentioned, but I'd bet a small sum that they have separate bodies as well, as the work of the two are very different.
All of this information can be verified on county court websites.
I listened to the first five minutes. That's all I could take of his voice and rambling.
Placer County's website indicates the same grand jury can consider criminal cases if asked by the prosecutor. https://www.placer.courts.ca.gov/general-information/grand-jury
On the other hand, Madera's Grand Jury is impaneled as a civil grand jury. However, in the frequently asked questions about whether a Grand Jury can investigate criminal cases, it answers that while it is possible for a grand jury to do both usually a separate grand jury will be impaneled. https://www.madera.courts.ca.gov/online-services/jury-grand-jury-information/grand-jury
The Pluma Grand Jury site does say its grand jury is for civil cases only, though, as you say.
One point we overlooked: The Grand Jury may receive and investigate complaints by individuals, including private citizens, local government officials, and employees, regarding action and performances of public officials.
He also posted another video touting the medical benefit of marijuana for seniors https://www.marijuanamoment.net/trump-posts-video-on-medical-benefits-of-cannabis-for-seniors-as-white-house-weighs-rescheduling/
And, then, today, he posted an AI altered video of Jefferis and Schumer, Jefferies wearing a sombrero and Schumer calling all elected Democrats sh^t
When he announced he was sending troops to Portland, he referred to seeing videos of destruction in Portland. Those videos were apparently from the 2020 riots after the death of George Floyd. Trump apparently thinks they were very recent videos.
I know what my kids would be doing if I were posting such garbage on my social media. Family Intervention time. The keys to the car would be taken away, and they would be placing me in a dementia ward.
There were a bunch of other freakish things that happened over the weekend, but it is getting past my bed time.
I wonder where California’s system came from, and if there are other states that use it or something like it. Another reminder that the US has 52+ judicial systems, and very few blanket assumptions, beyond requirements of the US Constitution, can be made about how things work.
How could they tell?