Do You pray for the dead?
Gramps49 wrote: »
This is very tragic news. Four family members of Darren Bailey, a Republican candidate for governor of Illinois in the 2026 election, have died in a helicopter crash in Montana. Bailey’s son, Zachary, his wife, Kelsey, and their two young children, Vada Rose, 12, and Samuel, 7, died in the crash. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/23/darren-bailey-illinois-crash-helicopter-00619907
We do need to keep the family in our thoughts and prayers.
@ChastMastr replied:
🕯 and for the deceased as well.
This exchange brings up something that has been on my mind for a while; namely, should Christians pray for the dead, specifically do you pray for the dead? Would love to hear the theological reasoning behind it.
Don't know about the Orthodox traditions, so I will let @Gamma Gamaliel or others explain that.
The Roman Church appears to have prayers for the dead tied to the doctrine of purgatory.
Lutherans will commend the dead to God's care, but I do not think it goes beyond that.
More evangelical denominations pan the idea it seems.
Note to @ChastMastr when I mentioned praying for the family, I left the door open for prayers for the deceased since they are a part of the larger family, in my mind.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead
The dead are in Gods hands.
I see funerals as being for the living.
I find Rohr's view that the function of prayer is to change yourself makes sense.
So praying for the dead allows one to reflect on how your memory and understanding of that person's life can help you grow in your and your community's life.
"True prayer is an outflowing of love; if I love someone, I will want to pray for them, not necessarily because they are in difficulties, not necessarily because there is a particular need of which I'm aware, but simply because holding them up in God's presence is the most natural and appropriate thing to do, and because I believe that God chooses to work through our prayers for other people's benefit, whatever sort of benefit that may be. Now love doesn't stop at death – or, if does, it's a pretty poor sort of love!"
And more specifically on why Protestant theologians have traditionally frowned on the practice:
"Once you get rid of the abuses which have pulled prayer out of shape, there is no reason why prayer should stop just because the person you are praying for happens now to be 'with Christ, which is far better'. Why not simply celebrate the fact?"
And I will admit I bristle a bit at the suggestion that not continuing to pray for loved ones who have died shows a “pretty poor sort of love.”
This raises the question, though, whether praying for the dead, as such, actually does celebrate the fact. Can that fact not be celebrated by giving thanks to God that those loved ones have been made perfect in the divine presence, and by rejoicing that we are still joined with them in the communion of saints?
Isn't giving thanks for them also praying for them?
All of us ,living and dead, are indeed in God's hands.
Me too.
Our Place's FatherInCharge is always exhorting his little flock to pray for the soul of someone or other, but I'm never quite sure what he thinks God will do, or what, indeed, we should be asking him to do.
Holding someone in remembrance, and commending them into God's hands, is surely enough - but I'm afraid I have no real belief in the efficacy of intercessory prayer, anyway.
I don't see how giving thanks equates to intercessory prayer - could you unpack the idea a bit, please?
Maybe I'm getting confused here...
Asking you to help my friend with something he needs is not the same thing as thanking you for helping my friend with what, because of what you’ve done, he no longer needs. The focus has shifted from what my friend needs (what I asked of you “for” him) to gratitude for what you have done. Both prayers may be grounded in my love for my friend, but only the first one is a prayer “for” him and his wellbeing. In the second one, the prayer of thanks, I’d say more that I’m praying “with” him.
I’d agree with the second sentence. But I don’t think the first sentence—“If there is no sense in praying for the dead, there is equally no sense in praying for the living”—necessarily follows, because it turns on whether we believe the dead need or prayers or not. If there’s not a belief in purgatory—and in my tradition there is not—then at best, prayers for the living and prayers for the dead would seem to have very different purposes.
Speaking personally, my style of praying for others is typically to “hold them in the light of God,” to speak metaphorically. That is to say, rather than praying for specific outcomes, I tend to pray that God will be present, will comfort and bring peace, will heal (though that healing may take different and unexpected forms, and may not include physical healing), and will, well, hold them. And that they will know they’re being held.
My belief is that my loved ones who have died are eternally bathed in the light of God. My prayers of holding them in the light of God while they were living have been fulfilled. They no longer need my prayers.
Well, they are still the subject and topic of the prayer whether it is intercessory or not.
I also wonder whether it's closest to praying for someone you are close to who you are no longer in contact with - which is something that's ever rarer in the modern world, but does still occur in times of war and so on.
As for praying for them, as if they were in need--I don't know enough about their situation to do this, really, but I don't think God would take offense, even if I were wrong. If he thought it necessary, he might let me know I didn't need to worry. But I wouldn't expect it to be a problem in his eyes unless I was really distressing myself over it in a major way, or spending huge amounts of time and effort, etc. on something unnecessary. Then he might intervene.
Thanks. ISWYM.
We are the ones who need to pray. It is good for us to remember before God our neighbours, be they, to our eyes' 'living' or 'dead'.
Yes, and it was somewhat remiss of me to omit the central quote of the passage above (which for avoidance of doubt was taken from the NT Wright book, and would have been written at a time when he was much more traditionally Reformed than perhaps he was later) which, it seems to me, express something of the sentiments you express above:
But maybe I’m the one being too narrow in what I think of as being prayers for as opposed to about someone else.
Either way, perhaps it would need to make sure we’re all on the same page about exactly what kinds of prayers we’re talking about, or we risk talking about different things.
But I'm not sure 'praying for' is limited to purely intercessory prayer, so much as whenever someone is the subject of the prayer which is surely the case whenever you are 'holding' someone 'before God'.
Or to put it a little differently, to my mind “praying for” is pretty much limited to intercessory prayer because in my experience people only use “praying for” when they mean “interceding on behalf of.” Calling what Wright describes “praying for the dead” is requiring “praying for” mean something different from what I, in my experience, hear people use it to mean.
Of course, the Apocalypse does indicate the saints are praying for the church on earth. I am hard pressed to see how our prayers influence their prayers.
I will respond as I did on the previous thread. I pray for the dead because I love them.
That doesn't mean that @Nick Tamen's love for his dear departed is any less than mine, of course.
It makes sense to pray for the dead or to invoke the prayers of the Saints within the Orthodox paradigm. So I do so.
If I was Reformed or some other kind of Protestant, I wouldn't.
But I'm not, so I do.
That's all I have to say on the matter. Nothing to do with Purgatory. Everything to do with love.
The idea of Purgatory as a place of transition on the passage between human life on earth and the possible bliss of an afterlife in Heaven is an attempt to explain what we really don't know too much about.
It is,however, to my mind,a mistake to think that when we pray for our 'beloved dead' we are only thinking about liberation from Purgatory.
Like all of our prayers ,be they of petition,of intercession ,of thanksgiving or of praise,they are acts of love towards God and our neighbours.
Here is the opening collect of the first Mass for All Souls Day
Merciful Father,
hear our prayers and console us.
As we renew our faith in your son whom you raised from the dead,
Strengthen our hope that all our brothers and sisters will share in his resurrection.
But as those I care about are dying or have just died, I do pray for them journeying into the afterlife, wanting them to be at peace in Christ, a kind of last farewell prayer that is probably more about me letting go than anything else...
I tend to include the Orthodox prayers for the dead as part of my morning 'office' and particularly on a Saturday which is traditionally when we remember the departed.
Our parish uses a redundant Anglican church building and every 11th November the priest and a number of people will gather to say memorial prayers for those commemorated on the WW1 memorial plaque on the outside of the building.
Do they 'need' our prayers?
I think it's a good thing to do whatever the case.
I'm not trying to stipulate what other people should or should not do, of course.
I will say prayers over the graves of my wife and other relatives but not regularly. I visited the natural burial ground where my mother lies recently when I was back down in South Wales and prayed there. I don't do that during every visit to my home town.
I will almost always say a short prayer for those who lie in graveyards or whose names and lives are commemorated inside old churches. It feels natural to me to do so and I don't get too hung up on the whys and wherefores.
Equally, I may find myself praying for the local authority, health service and other bodies when I visit a town for whatever reason. Again, that feels like a natural thing to do.
It's one of these both/and things again. I pray for the living. I pray for the departed.
It's the living who get my prayers though the best that I can pray for is that everyone lives into their best possible outcomes. It's not for me to say what's best for anyone, so this seems to cover all eventualities.
AFF
So much I can identify with here, especially for someone very loved who may be still very present in memory and longing: the conversation goes on but, yes, one-sided. With the hope of reunion at some point beyond this life.
I do wonder though and this may touch on the flip side of a coin, if the dead pray for us? Growing up in Zimbabwe I was very conscious of being surrounded by Shona and Ndebele people holding their ancestral houses and lineages in deep reverence and feeling themselves to be guided by those who had gone on before.
Orthodox hagiography has stories of glorified Saints appearing to people for one reason or another. 'My relics are in that field over there ...'
These stories may be pious legend but they are part of the Tradition and people appear to hold to them in whatever way they wish, as pious stories or literal historical fact, according to how they jive.
I certainly don't 'expect' a two-way conversation and we tend be quite circumspect about apparent apparitions and what-not.
My late mother told my brother that she felt she'd seen my late wife after her death, 'shining like a Saint.' She didn't tell me that herself. I was sceptical and felt it was most likely one of those wishful thinking half-awake, half asleep moments. I mentioned it to an Orthodox priest and they felt the same.
So no, I'm not expecting the dead to communicate with me in any way. I've had very vivid dreams where my mother or late wife have appeared very vividly but they didn't 'say' anything to me that differed from what they said when they were alive. The over-riding sense was one of benign love followed by a searing sense of loss when I awoke and realised I'd been dreaming.
I don't see anything supernatural or supranatural in this, it's simply my subconscious dealing with my grief.
I have for a long time been super-aware of my DNA as a kind of "information transit station". In a very solid sense, I am my ancestors. All my DNA are theirs, and so therefore all the information contained in it necessarily transmits all its information to my corporeal awareness through cellular communication.
I am greatly comforted by the thought that I can never be separated from my dear parents because all their DNA is mine. Less certain of how that works when one's child precedes one ... though I feel like the part of me that was passed to my daughter still reverberates on some level with the consciousness that so briefly joined itself to mine through this genetic daisy chain.
AFF
I would agree with this and with your previous post. It's quite common for a lot of Black people in the US and UK for eg to invoke their ancestors (often simply referred to as "the Ancestors") regardless of religion, and a lot of people in marginalised groups view historical people from their group(s) as spiritual ancestors even if they are not blood related. The wonderful scene in the movie Sinners featuring different musicians and dancers is a great exploration of this imo.
I agree that despite being on the higher end of things church-wise, I do not actually feel the need to pray for the dead - not because they couldn't hear, and not because I think it's bad, I just don't think they need it. I don't think that there is a place like the traditional interpretation of Purgatory where people need my prayers in order to make it out of there. I don't believe I am able to affect the post-death experience like that, and I personally would not like that responsibility!
I try to remember that it’s like having a huge extended family of older, much older, brothers and sisters from across time and space.
I don't think this is a universal belief, in practice, even if you are either an RC or on the Catholic end of Anglicanism - canonised saints, sure; regular dead people, not so much. In my experience the average Roman Catholic is a lot more "low church" in this area than most Anglo-Catholics (tbh in most things, honestly). Also I think there is a pond difference here at least between TEC and the C of E, with what "counts" as being on the Catholic end having a much lower threshold in the C of E.
Certainly my Silent Generation cradle Catholic grandma would never think to ask a dead person who wasn't a canonised saint for their prayers, because from her perspective why would she bother Auntie Jean when she could go direct to Padre Pio or St Anthony? Or to the Holy Family if she had a big ask (interestingly she would be much more likely to pray to the Holy Family than Our Lady individually, which I think may be an Irish thing?). If she wants to pray for a specific thing she's going to hit up a patron saint of that thing, or Padre Pio because Irish Catholic grandmas LOVE Padre Pio (although yer man JPII may have eclipsed him now as a saint - Irish Catholic grandmas also LOVE JPII).
It is for all those 'non canonised 'Saints' that the Western Church celebrates the Feast of All Saints on 1st November.
But then I struggle with the whole notion of petitions in prayer.
So do I. Because of how I perceive our life-story agency (refer to LC's "self insertion" analogy) it's hard for me to ask for what-is to be other than it is. So the best I can do is to pray that everyone experiences their best outcomes, in whatever form that takes.
I regard those on "the other side" to be in the audience now. It's hard for me to imagine them needing anything from me right now.
AFF
Yes, there are some popular Eastern European beliefs such as the 'Heavenly Tollbooths' thing which many of us would regardvas superstitious and which certainly don't have serious theological sanction.
I s'pose the way I see it is that I'm asking God to do what he's already doing as it were, 'settle them in places of light, of green pasture ...'
I would also feel uncomfortable invoking the prayers of a non-canonised saint who has departed this life, but I have done so occasionally.
If I were somewhere connected with them I wouldn't have an issue saying, 'holy John Wesley ...' or 'holy John Henry Newman ...' or 'holy Florence Nightingale...' or 'holy Evelyn Underhill...' 'pray for us.'
To be honest, I don't 'over-think' these things, although I do over-think much else. I'll pray over my wife's grave and those of other relatives and friends. I sometimes stop as I cross a cemetery or graveyard and pray for those whose names attract my attention on the headstones. I'll do tye ame for those commemorated on memorials inside old churches.
It feels natural for me to do so, in a similar way that, when I'm out walking I may thank God for an interesting view or intriguing building or tree or rock or whatever else. I also sometimes find myself praying for towns and villages when I drive through them.
It's all part of the same thing.
On the ancestors thing ... I visited Madagascar last year and the whole place is suffused with respect and veneration of ancestors, not only among Animists but also across most Christian groups other than very strict evangelicals.
I found some of this disconcerting, but by no means all if it. I sort of 'got' it. Through a combination of that and the strong antimalarial tablets I was taking I had very vivid dreams in which my late wife, mother and others I had known in life appeared in a very benign and reassuring way.
An old 'enemy' from the workplace 20-odd years back even featured to assure me that all that was water under the bridge and of no account now.
I don't see anything spooky in that, it was my subconscious trying to work these things through.
Yesterday, October 27th was the Feast of the newly canonised St Olga of Alaska. She is believed to have appeared to people in 'visionary prayer', sometimes in the company of the Holy Theotokos. Apparently she has a particular concern in healing survivors of sexual abuse.
Whatever we make of that there is a strong belief in Orthodoxy that the Saints continue to intercede for us and can 'intervene' in some way.
But are you praying for those outcomes or just hoping for them? I think there is a difference.
Well since I don't know exactly what constitutes someone's "best outcome" I have no idea of what to hope for.
I simply ask Christ to guide them in the decisions and experiences that result in their best possible outcomes. Only He and they know what that might look like.
AFF
Oh, of course - and a lot of lay RC traditions regarding canonised saints come from more of a folk religion tradition rather than anything with actual doctrinal backing, eg the Irish tradition of brides-to-be putting a small figure of the Infant of Prague on the front doorstep the night before their wedding.
As an aside, whilst we may, and do, pray for specific outcomes in personal prayer, when it comes to the Liturgy and corporate worship the Orthodox practice is to present a list or litany of things before the Almighty and leave it up to him how he might answer.
We don't know what the best outcome might be.
So there is some congruence of course in the way I might approach this and how @A Feminine Force and others might do so, whatever differences we may have otherwise in terms of theology and practice.
I agree with @Gamma Gamaliel it's about love. The late Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote that we should never cease praying for the dead. This is in some ways tied up with hopeful universalism. In this world, love can sometimes bring about a change of heart, a metanoia. I believe it is still possible to reach the deceased with our love and that light can aid in lightening their darkness.