Certainly, on the Catholic end of the spectrum, we believe that the dead pray for us, and we request their prayers as well.
I try to remember that it’s like having a huge extended family of older, much older, brothers and sisters from across time and space.
I don't think this is a universal belief, in practice, even if you are either an RC or on the Catholic end of Anglicanism - canonised saints, sure; regular dead people, not so much. In my experience the average Roman Catholic is a lot more "low church" in this area than most Anglo-Catholics (tbh in most things, honestly). Also I think there is a pond difference here at least between TEC and the C of E, with what "counts" as being on the Catholic end having a much lower threshold in the C of E.
Certainly my Silent Generation cradle Catholic grandma would never think to ask a dead person who wasn't a canonised saint for their prayers, because from her perspective why would she bother Auntie Jean when she could go direct to Padre Pio or St Anthony? Or to the Holy Family if she had a big ask (interestingly she would be much more likely to pray to the Holy Family than Our Lady individually, which I think may be an Irish thing?). If she wants to pray for a specific thing she's going to hit up a patron saint of that thing, or Padre Pio because Irish Catholic grandmas LOVE Padre Pio (although yer man JPII may have eclipsed him now as a saint - Irish Catholic grandmas also LOVE JPII).
Er--in this case, I was indeed thinking of the Saints, yes--they are "the dead" whose prayers we (many of us) invoke, hence "older, much older brothers and sisters from across time and space," as opposed to ten or twenty years older (centuries or even longer). (I have asked non-canonized folks (living and dead) to pray for me as well, but in this case I did indeed mean the Saints like St. Francis, St. Paul, etc.) Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
While I agree with Pomona about general practice it is still the teaching of the RC Church that all who reach Heaven may be regarded as 'Saints' The Church puts on to a list only a tiny proportion of those,giving them formally the title of 'Saint' and proposing them as models of christian living to others.
It is for all those 'non canonised 'Saints' that the Western Church celebrates the Feast of All Saints on 1st November.
Indeed! (And the canonized ones as well...) And All Souls' for everyone else.
I actually do find some dreams more "special" than others in terms of connecting with deceased loved ones (re @Gamma Gamaliel and "spooky" dreams or not), but I think it depends on the dream. But I don't tend to assume I know for sure. I do pray for everyone who turns up in my dreams in at least a general way. But there's a dedicated dream thread so I won't drag this thread off topic...
@ChastMastr it makes more sense if you meant capital-S Saints! It wasn't clear just imo, but that does make sense.
@pablito1954 why do we have Purgatory if Jesus' redemptive death and resurrection has already happened? Purgatory is one of those Catholic doctrines that I do struggle with just because it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either Biblically or logically. Either Jesus' death and resurrection was efficacious or it wasn't.
@ChastMastr it makes more sense if you meant capital-S Saints! It wasn't clear just imo, but that does make sense.
@pablito1954 why do we have Purgatory if Jesus' redemptive death and resurrection has already happened? Purgatory is one of those Catholic doctrines that I do struggle with just because it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either Biblically or logically. Either Jesus' death and resurrection was efficacious or it wasn't.
I'm not sure I believe the RC version of Purgatory, but the idea that our purification takes some length of experience and development beyond this life makes sense to me. Even redeemed we do not leave this life perfect.
For clarity, I don't think it's impossible to find Biblical justification for the existence of a post-death experience that isn't Heaven or Hell. But the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is very explicit in the idea that regular human Christians can affect the experience of those in Purgatory. I think that this is such a big leap that it would have to be mentioned more specifically in the Bible for me to think it was a reasonable conclusion to come to.
I believe, at least for those of us who believe in something like it, that purgatory is about sanctification rather than justification.
Jesus redeemed everyone I believe, but certainly some people and probably most of us need some work if we're not just to repeat the sufferings of this life in the next.
I believe, at least for those of us who believe in something like it, that purgatory is about sanctification rather than justification.
Jesus redeemed everyone I believe, but certainly some people and probably most of us need some work if we're not just to repeat the sufferings of this life in the next.
I agree. I've come to conclude that Purgatory in some form is a logical requirement for Universalism, particularly, for the very reason you give.
I think, and RC Shipmates will correct me if I'm wrong, that there are a range of beliefs about Purgatory within the RCC.
I get the impression that thinking on this subject has moved on from the late medieval view, with Purgatory being more of a kind of 'waiting room' than a boot-camp where remaining imperfections are knocked out of you.
You'll find echoes of that among the Orthodox but we haven't dogmatised about these matters. We would generally reject the 'popular' view of Purgatory as it is often presented, whilst accepting that some RC perspectives on Purgatory are more nuanced than they might at first appear.
I can certainly see how some kind of Purgatorial concept plays into Universalism. The late Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was very inclined towards a hopeful Universalism but, as is the Orthodox way, without being overly prescriptive or definite about it.
'We may hope that all may be saved, we cannot say that all will be saved.'
That's where I'm at on this one, FWIW.
Whatever the case, on a day to day level I pray for the living and the dead, I invoke the prayers of the Theotokos and all the Saints and pray to Holy and Undivided Trinity, One God who is to be praised, honoured and glorified both now and forever and unto the ages of ages. Amen!
@Dafyd I agree with that. Of course Christ has redeemed us, but that doesn't mean we all die in a state of divine grace. As a universalist, I believe that hell and puegatory are essentially the same thing. Many of us have a lot of sin, selfishness, and self will(ego) to burn out of us before we can stand in God's presence, and purification may be a necessary stage for many people.
@Gamma Gamaliel one problem I have with the RC Church is that it over dogmatises things. I, and I'm sure you too, believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist. Yet I see it as a divine mystery, it doesn't need to be so tightly defined as the Double Miracle of Transubstantiation. Similarly, I believe in the concept of purgatory, that souls go through progressive purification. But again I wouldn't necessarily define it in R C terms.
Well, there's the Orthodox saying that, 'Rome has added, the Protestants have taken away.'
Which is one of those annoying 'Ya boo! We've got it all sussed unlike you lot,' sayings we tend to come out with.
Yet it does carry the sense that our RC brothers and sisters do tend to 'over-egg the pudding' to use an annoying Gamaliel phrase. 😑 😉
From an Orthodox perspective, Rome's a bit over-cooked and the Protestant traditions a bit underdone. But there are overlaps of course and you've highlighted a potential one with your views on Purgatory and also on the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
I wouldn't say that Purgatory and Hell are one and the same, which may sound counter-intuitive as I don't believe in Purgatory as such. I am open to the possibility of some kind of post-death 'refinement' but I wouldn't speculate as to what form that might take.
Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
@ChastMastr, in what ways do you think God might bless Saint Francis of Assisi in response to your prayer beyond the blessings Francis already has already received in the divine presence?
And to be clear, I don’t mean this question as a challenge to your perspective. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
From an Orthodox perspective, Rome's a bit over-cooked and the Protestant traditions a bit underdone.
Well yes, that's basically what Anglicanism says too (it used to say the same about Lutheranism and Calvinism; there's always a via media if you look hard enough).
Now that's what the Second Vatican Council attempted to sort out.
Of course we do not reach perfection in this life, but have to pass through the Church militant and the Church suffering to reach the Church triumphant.
From an Orthodox perspective, Rome's a bit over-cooked and the Protestant traditions a bit underdone.
Well yes, that's basically what Anglicanism says too (it used to say the same about Lutheranism and Calvinism; there's always a via media if you look hard enough).
Sure. As in Swift's A Tale of a Tub. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. 😉
But Anglicanism used to say that Antioch as well as Rome had 'erred'. Did they mean us?
Constantinople isn't on that list in the 39 Articles. Canterbury often used to think that Constantinople was on the same page, and vice-versa, until either side took a closer look.
There's no 'middle-ground' between Lutheranism and Calvinism. They are both wrong ...
Another both/and ... 😉
More seriously, I can see why the Anglicans used to say that but they were leaving us out of the equation. They were happy for the Greeks to have their own church in 1670s London provided they didn't venerate their icons but only used them for decoration and didn't say anything that smacked like Transubstantiation.
Jerusalem and Alexandria had also 'erred' according to the 39 Articles.
It didn't matter how ancient these Sees were, they were all wonky.
Only 'This Church of England by law established' had got it right.
So that settles it, then.
Meanwhile, should we pray for a canonised Saint as @ChastMastr does for St Francis of Assisi? Good question.
I'm not sure I'd pray for a canonised Saint as they're already deemed to have 'arrived' as it were, but I might venerate them even if they haven't (yet?) been recognised by my own Church.
I'm not sure whether there is an Orthodox 'line' on that. Whatever the case I don't envisage our current and tragic ecclesial divisions as extending into eternity.
Would I pray for Bishop Hooker or Martin Luther or Monsieur Jean Calvin?
Would I 'venerate' them?
I'm not sure I've had occasion to do so but I don't see why I shouldn't acknowledge or 'honour' them in some way. 'Oh Lord remember your servant [name] for good ...'
As much as Lutherans venerate Luther, we do not pray to him, or for him. We do know of at least one instance where Luther admits to praying to Mary to save him during a thunderstorm, but I think he abandoned that practice more or less as he got into the Bible more. He did include the Hail Mary in his prayer book. Goes to show how complicated Luther was in his own personal beliefs.
More seriously, I'm not advocating we pray 'to' Luther or invoke his prayers nor treat him as if he's beyond the pale as some kind of dastardly 'heretick' either.
If I were ever in Wittenburg though I could envisage myself saying a short prayer on his behalf or wondering aloud what he'd make of things. I might even ask him to pray for me, that I would exercise the kind of moral courage and conviction that he showed in life.
I might also tell him that I appreciate his fart-gags.
We Orthodox would argue, of course, that if he really did get into his Bible more he'd have seen the Theotokos 'interceding' with Christ at the Wedding at Cana ...
I understand Luther continued to believe in The Perpetual Virginity of Mary even if he stopped invoking her aid.
FWIW I regard Luther as a complex and multi-faceted character and very much, like all of us, a product of his time.
He was certainly right to 'protest' against Indulgences and so on but the Orthodox would argue that right and proper though this was he was forced onto a trajectory - partly as a result of Roman casuistry (we have enough of that ourselves to recognise it in other people) - that pushed him further than he might have gone otherwise.
In principle, I'd have issue about honouring or 'venerating' Luther to some extent - but I wouldn't venerate him as I would one of 'ours'. Equally, I would 'acknowledge' or even ask the prayers of a St Theresa of Avila or St Francis of Assisi or other post-Schism RC Saints, but not as regularly as I would 'our' own canonised Saints.
I do tend to think though that certain figures 'belong' to us all and also that all of us can learn or benefit from the example of Saints and small s saints right across the board.
So to that extent, 'Holy John Wesley, pray for us,' 'Holy St Therese of Lisieux pray for us', 'Holy George Fox pray for us, 'Holy Oscar Romero pray for us,' 'Holy Aunt Doris pray for us' ...
@Dafyd I agree with that. Of course Christ has redeemed us, but that doesn't mean we all die in a state of divine grace. As a universalist, I believe that hell and puegatory are essentially the same thing. Many of us have a lot of sin, selfishness, and self will(ego) to burn out of us before we can stand in God's presence, and purification may be a necessary stage for many people.
@Gamma Gamaliel one problem I have with the RC Church is that it over dogmatises things. I, and I'm sure you too, believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist. Yet I see it as a divine mystery, it doesn't need to be so tightly defined as the Double Miracle of Transubstantiation. Similarly, I believe in the concept of purgatory, that souls go through progressive purification. But again I wouldn't necessarily define it in R C terms.
That’s generally my view as well. Lewis talks about Purgatory as being like, when you go to the dentist, and the tooth of life has been pulled, you rinse your mouth out with a sort of wash—and the latter would be like Purgatory.
Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
@ChastMastr, in what ways do you think God might bless Saint Francis of Assisi in response to your prayer beyond the blessings Francis already has already received in the divine presence?
And to be clear, I don’t mean this question as a challenge to your perspective. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
I’m not sure I understand the question here. Beyond? Has already received? I’m not even sure time works the same way… hmmm.
I don’t think there’s a limit to the blessings God can/will/does bestow. At very least, I trust that He can take my weak and furtive prayers up into His Providence as part of how He blesses us, whether in past, present, future, or in some way that doesn’t operate in time as we experience it. Even if He “would already have done X anyway,” my understanding is that by letting our prayers be part of that, He gives us what I’ve heard called “the dignity of being causes.”
From an Orthodox perspective, Rome's a bit over-cooked and the Protestant traditions a bit underdone.
Well yes, that's basically what Anglicanism says too (it used to say the same about Lutheranism and Calvinism; there's always a via media if you look hard enough).
Yes, like the three coats in a poem by… Dryden, maybe?
Just to clarify, as my posts do tend to meander and ebb and flow.
I will make myself clearer if I can.
What I meant was that I not saying that Lutherans should pray for Martin Luther or invoke his prayers. However, if anyone is minded to do so, be they Lutheran, RC, Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian or whatever else, then that is of course entirely up to them.
I also 'get' @ChastMastr's point about there being no limit on God's love and blessings and if we can somehow be part of that, in time or out of time, then that's all to the good.
All I know is, that on a few occasions recently when visiting an old church I've felt it appropriate to quietly thank God for the lives of some of those commemorated on memorials and to pray for their souls.
So, for instance, in Winchester Cathedral I noticed a 19th century effigy of a very industrious clergyman with a fulsome carved tribute from those who'd raised subscriptions to pay for his memorial. I thanked God for all the lives touched by his fruitful ministry and that 'though dead he still speaks.' I also prayed that he would rest in peace and rise in glory and that light eternal would shine upon him.
There are other traditions that don't go in for memorials and expensive epitaphs. I respect that also. I have sometimes reflected quietly in Quaker graveyards where there are no epitaphs or tributes but simple markers where each Friend lies.
This all feels 'natural' to me but I can understand why my Reformed and Lutheran brothers and sisters, as well as other Protestants, would not feel the same.
Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
@ChastMastr, in what ways do you think God might bless Saint Francis of Assisi in response to your prayer beyond the blessings Francis already has already received in the divine presence?
And to be clear, I don’t mean this question as a challenge to your perspective. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
I’m not sure I understand the question here. Beyond? Has already received? I’m not even sure time works the same way… hmmm.
I work on the assumption that time, if it exists at all in eternity, does not operate the same way it does for us.
I don’t think there’s a limit to the blessings God can/will/does bestow. At very least, I trust that He can take my weak and furtive prayers up into His Providence as part of how He blesses us, whether in past, present, future, or in some way that doesn’t operate in time as we experience it. Even if He “would already have done X anyway,” my understanding is that by letting our prayers be part of that, He gives us what I’ve heard called “the dignity of being causes.”
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, though you may have answered by question despite my lack of clarity. But let me try it this way:
I come at it from a perspective that once the faithful have died (and, if you will, entered eternity), they are in the divine presence, gathered at the throne of God, seated at the heavenly banquet/wedding feast of the Lamb, however you want to describe it. From that perspective, asking God to bless them—even allowing for there being no limit God’s blessing and allowing for the dead going, if you will, from strength to strength—is asking God to do what God has already done, and done more fully and abundantly than we can imagine.
That perspective would say that there’s nothing our prayers can add because it’s all already accomplished, and the appropriate prayer is not one of intercession on behalf of the dead, but rather one of praise and thanksgiving for what God has done. In that regard, we pray with the faithful departed rather than for them.
@Gamma Gamaliel and indeed the two very different memorials to Jane Austen inside the cathedral demonstrate the range even within that one tradition (and despite the size of the place, Winchester Cathedral is definitely on the lower end of broad-church, in general). I do think that Jane herself probably preferred her original, simpler memorial to the gaudy later one (I can see her writing a book making fun of a character having a memorial like the second one!).
I am curious as to the average level of adult catechism for cradle RCs in the US. I know that adult Sunday School is generally A Thing in the US in a way it isn't in the UK, but I wasn't sure how much that applies to RCs outside of adult convert classes aka RCIA. I ask because in my experience, a generally high level of folk-Catholic traditions goes hand in hand with a low level of catechism for non-convert adults. I'm also guessing that this also applies to many Orthodox congregations, and I suspect that Catholics still being very much an immigrant-heavy denomination in the UK influences things here in terms of folk beliefs passing on. Which is not at all a criticism of said beliefs, but I have noticed that a lot of cradle RCs are not very well-versed in RC doctrine and are often very surprised by what their church's official doctrine says!
Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
@ChastMastr, in what ways do you think God might bless Saint Francis of Assisi in response to your prayer beyond the blessings Francis already has already received in the divine presence?
And to be clear, I don’t mean this question as a challenge to your perspective. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
I’m not sure I understand the question here. Beyond? Has already received? I’m not even sure time works the same way… hmmm.
I work on the assumption that time, if it exists at all in eternity, does not operate the same way it does for us.
I don’t think there’s a limit to the blessings God can/will/does bestow. At very least, I trust that He can take my weak and furtive prayers up into His Providence as part of how He blesses us, whether in past, present, future, or in some way that doesn’t operate in time as we experience it. Even if He “would already have done X anyway,” my understanding is that by letting our prayers be part of that, He gives us what I’ve heard called “the dignity of being causes.”
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, though you may have answered by question despite my lack of clarity. But let me try it this way:
I come at it from a perspective that once the faithful have died (and, if you will, entered eternity), they are in the divine presence, gathered at the throne of God, seated at the heavenly banquet/wedding feast of the Lamb, however you want to describe it. From that perspective, asking God to bless them—even allowing for there being no limit God’s blessing and allowing for the dead going, if you will, from strength to strength—is asking God to do what God has already done, and done more fully and abundantly than we can imagine.
That perspective would say that there’s nothing our prayers can add because it’s all already accomplished, and the appropriate prayer is not one of intercession on behalf of the dead, but rather one of praise and thanksgiving for what God has done. In that regard, we pray with the faithful departed rather than for them.
Yes, I think we approach this in different ways. I hope I did answer your question? ❤️
In which case, why pray for the living? If God has already accomplished their salvation then why pray for them at all?
What do I know, but for me the key to all of this lies in your opening observation, that if time exists in eternity then it operates in a different way to how it does for us in the here and now.
Of course.
And that's precisely one of the reasons why I believe we can pray for the departed, because all of this operates on a different plane as it were.
In my Protestant days we were often told that the Cross 'works' retrospectively, back into the past as well as here and now and into the future.
I still believe that.
Whether we take it literally or figuratively there's the account in Revelation of the saints crying out in heaven, 'How long, Oh Lord?'
We often hear of God's 'eternal now'. It's not a linear thing in eternity. It might not be here either according to some cosmologists.
All this is beyond my ken. But given the cosmic nature of what we are discussing and the sense we have, however expressed, that at the Eucharist past, present and future are all 'present' then I have no difficulty these days in praying for the departed any more than I might pray for you or friends and family.
I'm not being flippant but it really isn't an issue for me anymore, just like the whole free-will/predestination thing is no longer a big issue or faith vs works or other issues I feel that certain 'Western' Christian traditions tend to dichotomise to death.
The faithful departed are alive in Christ. Who knows whether our prayers are helping them 'get there' as it were? How do I know that if I pray for you it will do you any good? God is faithful. We have that promise.
I'll continue to pray for those whose names are recorded on monuments when I visit old churches and cathedrals as well as those known and unknown in graveyards. Why? It enhances and deepens my visit for one thing and for another it reminds me that we are all part of a continuum and all sorts of other reasons besides.
I can't imagine not doing so. Neither though, does that make me feel 'less' respect for those who see things differently.
I am curious as to the average level of adult catechism for cradle RCs in the US. I know that adult Sunday School is generally A Thing in the US in a way it isn't in the UK, but I wasn't sure how much that applies to RCs outside of adult convert classes aka RCIA.
In my experience, which may well be too limited, adult Sunday school is A Thing among Protestants (including Episcopalians for this purpose) in the US, but not among Catholics. That is not to say there are no forms of faith formation for adult Catholics, here, but adult Sunday school is not, again in my experience, usually part of the menu.
Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
@ChastMastr, in what ways do you think God might bless Saint Francis of Assisi in response to your prayer beyond the blessings Francis already has already received in the divine presence?
And to be clear, I don’t mean this question as a challenge to your perspective. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
I’m not sure I understand the question here. Beyond? Has already received? I’m not even sure time works the same way… hmmm.
I work on the assumption that time, if it exists at all in eternity, does not operate the same way it does for us.
I don’t think there’s a limit to the blessings God can/will/does bestow. At very least, I trust that He can take my weak and furtive prayers up into His Providence as part of how He blesses us, whether in past, present, future, or in some way that doesn’t operate in time as we experience it. Even if He “would already have done X anyway,” my understanding is that by letting our prayers be part of that, He gives us what I’ve heard called “the dignity of being causes.”
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, though you may have answered by question despite my lack of clarity. But let me try it this way:
I come at it from a perspective that once the faithful have died (and, if you will, entered eternity), they are in the divine presence, gathered at the throne of God, seated at the heavenly banquet/wedding feast of the Lamb, however you want to describe it. From that perspective, asking God to bless them—even allowing for there being no limit God’s blessing and allowing for the dead going, if you will, from strength to strength—is asking God to do what God has already done, and done more fully and abundantly than we can imagine.
That perspective would say that there’s nothing our prayers can add because it’s all already accomplished, and the appropriate prayer is not one of intercession on behalf of the dead, but rather one of praise and thanksgiving for what God has done. In that regard, we pray with the faithful departed rather than for them.
Yes, I think we approach this in different ways. I hope I did answer your question? ❤️
Yes, I think you did.
And I do want to be clear on something: I’ve tried in my posts in this thread to stick to describing the perspective I, informed by my particular tradition, come from. Beyond that, I’ve wanted to make sure I understand others correctly rather than relying on generations-old accusations. I have tried not to criticize other traditions or the perspectives of others posting here. If I have failed in that regard, I apologize. I respect and, I hope, understand those perspectives and the sentiments and very real feelings of love behind them, even when my perspective is different and my love is expressed differently.
I do think God can handle our different approaches.
On the pray with rather than for. Yes. I'm reminded of the encounter between Joshua and the Captain of the Lord's Hosts.
Are you with us or our enemies?
Why the dichotomy? Why can't we be praying with and for the departed at one and the same time?
Yes, yes, another Gamma Gamaliel 'both/and' thing but I really don't see why we have to 'either/or' these things.
I don't feel the need to pray for St Francis of Assisi, nor to invoke his prayers (he's not one of 'ours' 😉), but I could imagine I might do so were I in Assisi or visiting a Franciscan friary.
I suspect that if he chooses, God can take 21st century prayers and make them contributory causes to the blessedness of people who died before we were born.
Though truthfully, there are so many living people to pray for that I'm not sure what it would take for me to try the "backward in time" petitionary possibilities.
I suspect that if he chooses, God can take 21st century prayers and make them contributory causes to the blessedness of people who died before we were born.
Though truthfully, there are so many living people to pray for that I'm not sure what it would take for me to try the "backward in time" petitionary possibilities.
Sure. Although I'm not sure anyone's suggesting that we pray for different outcomes for events that have already happened.
'Oh Lord, please protect all those in Pompeii before Vesuvius erupts ...'
Although I see no reason why we shouldn't remember people from the past in our prayers.
I don't think we should get too 'prescriptive' about these things. I pray for my late wife, mother and mother in law as part of my daily 'office' of prayer and will add others at times when they spring to mind.
I also pray for living relatives and friends and for those brought to my attention through the parish WhatsApp group.
If a particular Saint intrigues me or attracts my attention from the list in the Lectionsry each day, I may, if I have time, look them up and say the troparion or kontakion in their honour.
I will also invoke the prayers of my patron Saint and others who regularly come to my attention such as St David of Wales (no surprises there) or St Luke.
I don't know why St Luke other than I've always liked his Gospel and someone gave me an icon of him they bought on holiday in Greece and didn't want - being an RC turned Protestant.
Well, if they don't want to benefit from his prayers or make him 'present' in their home through his icon, then I will avail myself of the opportunity. The Lord will bless them in the giving and in other ways commensurate with the tradition they are now following.
In which case, why pray for the living? If God has already accomplished their salvation then why pray for them at all?
IMHO I hope it could spur one to action. But I'm afraid that often it's seen as an excuse to do nothing.
I remember the atheist Ricky Gervais saying, after a disaster (Sarcasm alert.), "People are saying that they sent thoughts and prayers. Now I feel stupid, I sent money!"
Now where's that story of the Good Samaritan that sent thoughts and prayers to the beaten and robbed man to salve his conscience?
I agree with Pomona who said earlier that a lot of RCs are not well versed in official RC doctrine. Pomona also mentioned a tradition connected with the Infant of Prague. I don't think that too many people ,outside of the Catholic community, would have heard of the Infant of Prague and I am always surprised to see copies of the little statue amongst the holy bric a brac in most Catholic repositories.
The original in the church of our Lady of Victories in Prague is tiny but it is perhaps the best known example of those small figures which people in Central Europe claimed to have unearthed while digging in fields or which they claimed to have found sailing downstream in some sort of boat and which then became an object of devotion.
For many religions one is simply born into that religion and one's knowledge or interest in the finer points of doctrine plays little part in one being a member of the community.
Most Middle Eastern religions which preceded Judaism,and including Judaism, simply have people born into that 'tribe'.
Admittedly Christianity is theoretically different in inviting anyone to join the community but for many of the larger forms of Christianity most people are simply born into that creed and may or may not take an active interest in the teachings of the organisation.
In spite of declining numbers in England who say they belong to a religion I am sure that there are still large numbers of 'uncatechised' Anglicans. Certainly in Presbyterian Scotland there are large numbers of people who would classify themselves as Protestant while knowing only that a Protestant is NOT a Catholic.
'Popular' Catholicism often will have somewhat quirky practices to do with Saints while 'popular' Protestantism has often practices which are even less connected with regular Christian doctrine.
Spreading from the US we have the now almost universal tradition of Santa Claus with the name based on the legends of St Nicholas as well as Nordic Gods riding in sleighs across the night sky in winter. One of the names given to Santa Claus in the US was Kris Kringle which is a corruption of German 'Christkindl' (Christ child) which brings us back to the Infant of Prague.
And more specifically on why Protestant theologians have traditionally frowned on the practice:
"Once you get rid of the abuses which have pulled prayer out of shape, there is no reason why prayer should stop just because the person you are praying for happens now to be 'with Christ, which is far better'. Why not simply celebrate the fact?"
This raises the question, though, whether praying for the dead, as such, actually does celebrate the fact. Can that fact not be celebrated by giving thanks to God that those loved ones have been made perfect in the divine presence, and by rejoicing that we are still joined with them in the communion of saints?
Not all Reformed, one of the Baillie brothers (I cannot remember whether it was John or one of his brothers, some forty years after reading the piece) wrote an article that introduced me to praying to the saints and made a good case that the Reformed were uniquely theologically suited to prayer with the saints. I cannot remember his arguments now, just his conclusion.
@Forthview there is quite the affection for the Infant of Prague in Ireland and in Catholic communities in NI (a statue of the Infant is a key plot point in an episode of Derry Girls for eg), although I'm not sure how it spread to the island of Ireland! If it came via the wider UK at all, the devotion didn't last long there. Perhaps via France?
@Nick Tamen thanks for your info re Sunday School for adult Catholics in the US! I suspected that the prominent American RCs online might not be, er, very representative of the average local RC church.
And more specifically on why Protestant theologians have traditionally frowned on the practice:
"Once you get rid of the abuses which have pulled prayer out of shape, there is no reason why prayer should stop just because the person you are praying for happens now to be 'with Christ, which is far better'. Why not simply celebrate the fact?"
This raises the question, though, whether praying for the dead, as such, actually does celebrate the fact. Can that fact not be celebrated by giving thanks to God that those loved ones have been made perfect in the divine presence, and by rejoicing that we are still joined with them in the communion of saints?
Not all Reformed, one of the Baillie brothers (I cannot remember whether it was John or one of his brothers, some forty years after reading the piece) wrote an article that introduced me to praying to the saints and made a good case that the Reformed were uniquely theologically suited to prayer with the saints. I cannot remember his arguments now, just his conclusion.
Yes, and a good reminder that the Reformed tradition can be quite varied. But when, as here, I say “the Reformed view,” I assume people know I don’t mean the view of every single Reformed Christian, but the mainstream Reformed view as reflected in the various Reformed confessions and the like, and as held by the majority of Reformed Christians.
Also, what you describe from one of the Baillies (which I have a vague recollection I may have read years ago) appears to be, in your words but with my emphasis, about “praying to the saints” and “prayer with the saints.” What I was talking about in what you quoted was praying for the dead, which, as I’ve said in this thread, is not the same thing, I don’t think. Without going back to look, I’m pretty sure I’ve have spoken positively about praying with the saints in this thread.
My only prayers regarding the dead are those of thanksgiving.
It is quite common to hear people, religious or not, speak of ( eg) their parents/ spouse/ old granny “up there, looking down on us”.
Is there any justification for the thought that the dead might be aware of what is going on in the lives of those they have left behind?
The Hebrews passage about the great cloud of witnesses. But that presupposes that they can see details--I hope and suspect that they see the broad picture (of how the church on earth is doing) without getting down to privacy invading levels like spying on one's children etc.
I don't see praying to the Saints as praying for them. Nor is it about any form of idolatry. Only God can be worshipped. It's more in the spirit of the second part of the Hail Mary, "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Or as it's written in Eucharistic Prayer III of the Roman Missal, "....and with all the Saints, on whose constant intercession in your presence we rely for unfailing help."
If I were in trouble, I would ask my friends and family living to pray for me. One assumes the Saints are sufficiently hallowed to be in the presence of God. So I see it as perfectly natural to seek their intercession and to rely on them for help.
For clarity, I don't think it's impossible to find Biblical justification for the existence of a post-death experience that isn't Heaven or Hell. But the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is very explicit in the idea that regular human Christians can affect the experience of those in Purgatory. I think that this is such a big leap that it would have to be mentioned more specifically in the Bible for me to think it was a reasonable conclusion to come to.
Frankly I think Heaven and Hell are a stretch. Eternal conscious torment? Infinitely large Eden-like pleasure garden? I think Christian understanding of the afterlife has changed hugely since the NT was written.
Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
@ChastMastr, in what ways do you think God might bless Saint Francis of Assisi in response to your prayer beyond the blessings Francis already has already received in the divine presence?
And to be clear, I don’t mean this question as a challenge to your perspective. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
In general the Orthodoxen do not pray for canonized saints. There would be no point.
Thanks @mousethief. I've not come across Orthodox who pray for canonical Saints, so that makes sense.
I like @Nick Tamen's point about praying with saints/Saints and was intrigued by the details upthread from @Jengie Jon and the exchange between her and Nick on this one.
I was particularly struck by the comment that the Reformed might be 'uniquely placed' to comment on this issue. In what sense?
I'd agree that the Reformed have a distinctive take on many aspects of the Christian faith and that this often differs from what other Christians might expect or lay to their charge. At the risk of starting a tangent I would say that Calvin's 'take' on the Eucharist was particularly distinctive and quite possibly unique. I'd go as far as to suggest that the rest of us should pause and hear the Reformed out on that, if we haven't done so already.
I'm sure these things have come up though in ecumenical dialogue at the 'top levels', if we can put it that way. By and large though, this may not have percolated down into the parishes, congregations or pews.
'Oh, the Reformed tradition. They are the ones who are either hard-line Calvinists on the one hand or woolly URC-style liberals on the other ...'
'Oh, the RCs. They are the ones who pray to the Virgin Mary and believe the Pope's infallible ...'
'Oh, the Orthodox. They are the ones with the big beards and the icons ...'
And so on and so forth. So it's good to discuss what each tradition actually believes and practices and the range of viewpoints there might actually be in any one of them.
So, in what sense are the Reformed uniquely qualified? I can see that they might be distinctively qualified, but uniquely ...?
What would be unique about the Reformed approach to this matter that wouldn't appear among the RCs and Orthodox, say, or among the Lutherans, Anglicans or the Wesleyan and Wesleyan-derived Protestant traditions?
So, in what sense are the Reformed uniquely qualified? I can see that they might be distinctively qualified, but uniquely ...?
What would be unique about the Reformed approach to this matter that wouldn't appear among the RCs and Orthodox, say, or among the Lutherans, Anglicans or the Wesleyan and Wesleyan-derived Protestant traditions?
A few things. Regarding the bolded, what @Jengie Jon said was “uniquely theologically suited,” not “uniquely qualified.” I think there’s a big difference there.
Beyond that, we could perhaps make some guesses, but I think to really answer you question, we’d have to figure out exactly what writing by which Baillie Jengie Jon is remembering. (As I said, it rings some faint bells with me too.) I’ve done a little bit of looking, but so far without success. I’ll keep at it though.
Fair enough. I will rephrase my question, in what way are the Reformed uniquely theologically qualified to comment on this issue?
No one has said they are. No one has claimed that the Reformed are “uniquely theologically qualified to comment on this issue” of prayer with the saints.
Again, what @Jengie Jon said is that recalls the argument being that the Reformed are “uniquely theologically suited to prayer with the saints.” “Suited to pray with the saints” and “qualified to comment on praying with the saints” are not at all the same thing.
And again, we could perhaps guess what argument the publication Jengie Jon recalls might have been making. They may even be educated guesses. But I don’t know how to actually answer your question without identifying the writing she is remembering, which I’m trying to do.
Sure and that's how I would understand it too. Forgive me if I expressed myself in a slip-shod manner. I hope I didn't suggest that either Jengie Jon or your good self were claiming that the Reformed tradition was 'better suited' than others.
I tried to suggest that there might be something 'particular and distinctive' about the Reformed approach by using the analogy of Calvin's views on the Eucharist. They were, I think we'd all agree, quite 'particular and distinctive'. They differ from some Lutheran understandings and also what we might call Zwinglian 'memorialism.'
So, by analogy, it could well be that there are equally 'particular and distinctive' Reformed perspectives on praying with the saints/Saints.
And yes, we would need to look at the particular writings that Jengie Jon cites.
Comments
Er--in this case, I was indeed thinking of the Saints, yes--they are "the dead" whose prayers we (many of us) invoke, hence "older, much older brothers and sisters from across time and space," as opposed to ten or twenty years older (centuries or even longer). (I have asked non-canonized folks (living and dead) to pray for me as well, but in this case I did indeed mean the Saints like St. Francis, St. Paul, etc.) Heck, sometimes I pray for the Saints as well--"Please bless my big brother Francis, and ask him to pray for me, a sinner." (They're big brothers and sisters often by centuries or more...)
Indeed! (And the canonized ones as well...) And All Souls' for everyone else.
@pablito1954 why do we have Purgatory if Jesus' redemptive death and resurrection has already happened? Purgatory is one of those Catholic doctrines that I do struggle with just because it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either Biblically or logically. Either Jesus' death and resurrection was efficacious or it wasn't.
I'm not sure I believe the RC version of Purgatory, but the idea that our purification takes some length of experience and development beyond this life makes sense to me. Even redeemed we do not leave this life perfect.
Jesus redeemed everyone I believe, but certainly some people and probably most of us need some work if we're not just to repeat the sufferings of this life in the next.
I agree. I've come to conclude that Purgatory in some form is a logical requirement for Universalism, particularly, for the very reason you give.
I get the impression that thinking on this subject has moved on from the late medieval view, with Purgatory being more of a kind of 'waiting room' than a boot-camp where remaining imperfections are knocked out of you.
You'll find echoes of that among the Orthodox but we haven't dogmatised about these matters. We would generally reject the 'popular' view of Purgatory as it is often presented, whilst accepting that some RC perspectives on Purgatory are more nuanced than they might at first appear.
I can certainly see how some kind of Purgatorial concept plays into Universalism. The late Metropolitan Kallistos Ware was very inclined towards a hopeful Universalism but, as is the Orthodox way, without being overly prescriptive or definite about it.
'We may hope that all may be saved, we cannot say that all will be saved.'
That's where I'm at on this one, FWIW.
Whatever the case, on a day to day level I pray for the living and the dead, I invoke the prayers of the Theotokos and all the Saints and pray to Holy and Undivided Trinity, One God who is to be praised, honoured and glorified both now and forever and unto the ages of ages. Amen!
@Gamma Gamaliel one problem I have with the RC Church is that it over dogmatises things. I, and I'm sure you too, believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist. Yet I see it as a divine mystery, it doesn't need to be so tightly defined as the Double Miracle of Transubstantiation. Similarly, I believe in the concept of purgatory, that souls go through progressive purification. But again I wouldn't necessarily define it in R C terms.
Which is one of those annoying 'Ya boo! We've got it all sussed unlike you lot,' sayings we tend to come out with.
Yet it does carry the sense that our RC brothers and sisters do tend to 'over-egg the pudding' to use an annoying Gamaliel phrase. 😑 😉
From an Orthodox perspective, Rome's a bit over-cooked and the Protestant traditions a bit underdone. But there are overlaps of course and you've highlighted a potential one with your views on Purgatory and also on the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
I wouldn't say that Purgatory and Hell are one and the same, which may sound counter-intuitive as I don't believe in Purgatory as such. I am open to the possibility of some kind of post-death 'refinement' but I wouldn't speculate as to what form that might take.
And to be clear, I don’t mean this question as a challenge to your perspective. I’m simply trying to understand your perspective.
Well yes, that's basically what Anglicanism says too (it used to say the same about Lutheranism and Calvinism; there's always a via media if you look hard enough).
Of course we do not reach perfection in this life, but have to pass through the Church militant and the Church suffering to reach the Church triumphant.
Sure. As in Swift's A Tale of a Tub. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. 😉
But Anglicanism used to say that Antioch as well as Rome had 'erred'. Did they mean us?
Constantinople isn't on that list in the 39 Articles. Canterbury often used to think that Constantinople was on the same page, and vice-versa, until either side took a closer look.
There's no 'middle-ground' between Lutheranism and Calvinism. They are both wrong ...
Another both/and ... 😉
More seriously, I can see why the Anglicans used to say that but they were leaving us out of the equation. They were happy for the Greeks to have their own church in 1670s London provided they didn't venerate their icons but only used them for decoration and didn't say anything that smacked like Transubstantiation.
How they 'policed' that I don't know.
It didn't matter how ancient these Sees were, they were all wonky.
Only 'This Church of England by law established' had got it right.
So that settles it, then.
Meanwhile, should we pray for a canonised Saint as @ChastMastr does for St Francis of Assisi? Good question.
I'm not sure I'd pray for a canonised Saint as they're already deemed to have 'arrived' as it were, but I might venerate them even if they haven't (yet?) been recognised by my own Church.
I'm not sure whether there is an Orthodox 'line' on that. Whatever the case I don't envisage our current and tragic ecclesial divisions as extending into eternity.
Would I pray for Bishop Hooker or Martin Luther or Monsieur Jean Calvin?
Would I 'venerate' them?
I'm not sure I've had occasion to do so but I don't see why I shouldn't acknowledge or 'honour' them in some way. 'Oh Lord remember your servant [name] for good ...'
More seriously, I'm not advocating we pray 'to' Luther or invoke his prayers nor treat him as if he's beyond the pale as some kind of dastardly 'heretick' either.
If I were ever in Wittenburg though I could envisage myself saying a short prayer on his behalf or wondering aloud what he'd make of things. I might even ask him to pray for me, that I would exercise the kind of moral courage and conviction that he showed in life.
I might also tell him that I appreciate his fart-gags.
We Orthodox would argue, of course, that if he really did get into his Bible more he'd have seen the Theotokos 'interceding' with Christ at the Wedding at Cana ...
I understand Luther continued to believe in The Perpetual Virginity of Mary even if he stopped invoking her aid.
FWIW I regard Luther as a complex and multi-faceted character and very much, like all of us, a product of his time.
He was certainly right to 'protest' against Indulgences and so on but the Orthodox would argue that right and proper though this was he was forced onto a trajectory - partly as a result of Roman casuistry (we have enough of that ourselves to recognise it in other people) - that pushed him further than he might have gone otherwise.
In principle, I'd have issue about honouring or 'venerating' Luther to some extent - but I wouldn't venerate him as I would one of 'ours'. Equally, I would 'acknowledge' or even ask the prayers of a St Theresa of Avila or St Francis of Assisi or other post-Schism RC Saints, but not as regularly as I would 'our' own canonised Saints.
I do tend to think though that certain figures 'belong' to us all and also that all of us can learn or benefit from the example of Saints and small s saints right across the board.
So to that extent, 'Holy John Wesley, pray for us,' 'Holy St Therese of Lisieux pray for us', 'Holy George Fox pray for us, 'Holy Oscar Romero pray for us,' 'Holy Aunt Doris pray for us' ...
That’s generally my view as well. Lewis talks about Purgatory as being like, when you go to the dentist, and the tooth of life has been pulled, you rinse your mouth out with a sort of wash—and the latter would be like Purgatory.
I’m not sure I understand the question here. Beyond? Has already received? I’m not even sure time works the same way… hmmm.
I don’t think there’s a limit to the blessings God can/will/does bestow. At very least, I trust that He can take my weak and furtive prayers up into His Providence as part of how He blesses us, whether in past, present, future, or in some way that doesn’t operate in time as we experience it. Even if He “would already have done X anyway,” my understanding is that by letting our prayers be part of that, He gives us what I’ve heard called “the dignity of being causes.”
Yes, like the three coats in a poem by… Dryden, maybe?
—sorry, correction, Swift, mentioned above! That’s embarrassing…
I will make myself clearer if I can.
What I meant was that I not saying that Lutherans should pray for Martin Luther or invoke his prayers. However, if anyone is minded to do so, be they Lutheran, RC, Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian or whatever else, then that is of course entirely up to them.
I also 'get' @ChastMastr's point about there being no limit on God's love and blessings and if we can somehow be part of that, in time or out of time, then that's all to the good.
All I know is, that on a few occasions recently when visiting an old church I've felt it appropriate to quietly thank God for the lives of some of those commemorated on memorials and to pray for their souls.
So, for instance, in Winchester Cathedral I noticed a 19th century effigy of a very industrious clergyman with a fulsome carved tribute from those who'd raised subscriptions to pay for his memorial. I thanked God for all the lives touched by his fruitful ministry and that 'though dead he still speaks.' I also prayed that he would rest in peace and rise in glory and that light eternal would shine upon him.
There are other traditions that don't go in for memorials and expensive epitaphs. I respect that also. I have sometimes reflected quietly in Quaker graveyards where there are no epitaphs or tributes but simple markers where each Friend lies.
This all feels 'natural' to me but I can understand why my Reformed and Lutheran brothers and sisters, as well as other Protestants, would not feel the same.
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear, though you may have answered by question despite my lack of clarity. But let me try it this way:
I come at it from a perspective that once the faithful have died (and, if you will, entered eternity), they are in the divine presence, gathered at the throne of God, seated at the heavenly banquet/wedding feast of the Lamb, however you want to describe it. From that perspective, asking God to bless them—even allowing for there being no limit God’s blessing and allowing for the dead going, if you will, from strength to strength—is asking God to do what God has already done, and done more fully and abundantly than we can imagine.
That perspective would say that there’s nothing our prayers can add because it’s all already accomplished, and the appropriate prayer is not one of intercession on behalf of the dead, but rather one of praise and thanksgiving for what God has done. In that regard, we pray with the faithful departed rather than for them.
I am curious as to the average level of adult catechism for cradle RCs in the US. I know that adult Sunday School is generally A Thing in the US in a way it isn't in the UK, but I wasn't sure how much that applies to RCs outside of adult convert classes aka RCIA. I ask because in my experience, a generally high level of folk-Catholic traditions goes hand in hand with a low level of catechism for non-convert adults. I'm also guessing that this also applies to many Orthodox congregations, and I suspect that Catholics still being very much an immigrant-heavy denomination in the UK influences things here in terms of folk beliefs passing on. Which is not at all a criticism of said beliefs, but I have noticed that a lot of cradle RCs are not very well-versed in RC doctrine and are often very surprised by what their church's official doctrine says!
Yes, I think we approach this in different ways. I hope I did answer your question? ❤️
What do I know, but for me the key to all of this lies in your opening observation, that if time exists in eternity then it operates in a different way to how it does for us in the here and now.
Of course.
And that's precisely one of the reasons why I believe we can pray for the departed, because all of this operates on a different plane as it were.
In my Protestant days we were often told that the Cross 'works' retrospectively, back into the past as well as here and now and into the future.
I still believe that.
Whether we take it literally or figuratively there's the account in Revelation of the saints crying out in heaven, 'How long, Oh Lord?'
We often hear of God's 'eternal now'. It's not a linear thing in eternity. It might not be here either according to some cosmologists.
All this is beyond my ken. But given the cosmic nature of what we are discussing and the sense we have, however expressed, that at the Eucharist past, present and future are all 'present' then I have no difficulty these days in praying for the departed any more than I might pray for you or friends and family.
I'm not being flippant but it really isn't an issue for me anymore, just like the whole free-will/predestination thing is no longer a big issue or faith vs works or other issues I feel that certain 'Western' Christian traditions tend to dichotomise to death.
The faithful departed are alive in Christ. Who knows whether our prayers are helping them 'get there' as it were? How do I know that if I pray for you it will do you any good? God is faithful. We have that promise.
I'll continue to pray for those whose names are recorded on monuments when I visit old churches and cathedrals as well as those known and unknown in graveyards. Why? It enhances and deepens my visit for one thing and for another it reminds me that we are all part of a continuum and all sorts of other reasons besides.
I can't imagine not doing so. Neither though, does that make me feel 'less' respect for those who see things differently.
Yes, I think you did.
And I do want to be clear on something: I’ve tried in my posts in this thread to stick to describing the perspective I, informed by my particular tradition, come from. Beyond that, I’ve wanted to make sure I understand others correctly rather than relying on generations-old accusations. I have tried not to criticize other traditions or the perspectives of others posting here. If I have failed in that regard, I apologize. I respect and, I hope, understand those perspectives and the sentiments and very real feelings of love behind them, even when my perspective is different and my love is expressed differently.
I do think God can handle our different approaches.
Are you with us or our enemies?
Why the dichotomy? Why can't we be praying with and for the departed at one and the same time?
Yes, yes, another Gamma Gamaliel 'both/and' thing but I really don't see why we have to 'either/or' these things.
I don't feel the need to pray for St Francis of Assisi, nor to invoke his prayers (he's not one of 'ours' 😉), but I could imagine I might do so were I in Assisi or visiting a Franciscan friary.
Why wouldn't I?
Though truthfully, there are so many living people to pray for that I'm not sure what it would take for me to try the "backward in time" petitionary possibilities.
A lovely hymn, of course and another reason why we should invoke the aid of the Saints.
Sure. Although I'm not sure anyone's suggesting that we pray for different outcomes for events that have already happened.
'Oh Lord, please protect all those in Pompeii before Vesuvius erupts ...'
Although I see no reason why we shouldn't remember people from the past in our prayers.
I don't think we should get too 'prescriptive' about these things. I pray for my late wife, mother and mother in law as part of my daily 'office' of prayer and will add others at times when they spring to mind.
I also pray for living relatives and friends and for those brought to my attention through the parish WhatsApp group.
If a particular Saint intrigues me or attracts my attention from the list in the Lectionsry each day, I may, if I have time, look them up and say the troparion or kontakion in their honour.
I will also invoke the prayers of my patron Saint and others who regularly come to my attention such as St David of Wales (no surprises there) or St Luke.
I don't know why St Luke other than I've always liked his Gospel and someone gave me an icon of him they bought on holiday in Greece and didn't want - being an RC turned Protestant.
Well, if they don't want to benefit from his prayers or make him 'present' in their home through his icon, then I will avail myself of the opportunity. The Lord will bless them in the giving and in other ways commensurate with the tradition they are now following.
IMHO I hope it could spur one to action. But I'm afraid that often it's seen as an excuse to do nothing.
I remember the atheist Ricky Gervais saying, after a disaster (Sarcasm alert.), "People are saying that they sent thoughts and prayers. Now I feel stupid, I sent money!"
Now where's that story of the Good Samaritan that sent thoughts and prayers to the beaten and robbed man to salve his conscience?
The original in the church of our Lady of Victories in Prague is tiny but it is perhaps the best known example of those small figures which people in Central Europe claimed to have unearthed while digging in fields or which they claimed to have found sailing downstream in some sort of boat and which then became an object of devotion.
For many religions one is simply born into that religion and one's knowledge or interest in the finer points of doctrine plays little part in one being a member of the community.
Most Middle Eastern religions which preceded Judaism,and including Judaism, simply have people born into that 'tribe'.
Admittedly Christianity is theoretically different in inviting anyone to join the community but for many of the larger forms of Christianity most people are simply born into that creed and may or may not take an active interest in the teachings of the organisation.
In spite of declining numbers in England who say they belong to a religion I am sure that there are still large numbers of 'uncatechised' Anglicans. Certainly in Presbyterian Scotland there are large numbers of people who would classify themselves as Protestant while knowing only that a Protestant is NOT a Catholic.
'Popular' Catholicism often will have somewhat quirky practices to do with Saints while 'popular' Protestantism has often practices which are even less connected with regular Christian doctrine.
Spreading from the US we have the now almost universal tradition of Santa Claus with the name based on the legends of St Nicholas as well as Nordic Gods riding in sleighs across the night sky in winter. One of the names given to Santa Claus in the US was Kris Kringle which is a corruption of German 'Christkindl' (Christ child) which brings us back to the Infant of Prague.
Not all Reformed, one of the Baillie brothers (I cannot remember whether it was John or one of his brothers, some forty years after reading the piece) wrote an article that introduced me to praying to the saints and made a good case that the Reformed were uniquely theologically suited to prayer with the saints. I cannot remember his arguments now, just his conclusion.
Also, what you describe from one of the Baillies (which I have a vague recollection I may have read years ago) appears to be, in your words but with my emphasis, about “praying to the saints” and “prayer with the saints.” What I was talking about in what you quoted was praying for the dead, which, as I’ve said in this thread, is not the same thing, I don’t think. Without going back to look, I’m pretty sure I’ve have spoken positively about praying with the saints in this thread.
It is quite common to hear people, religious or not, speak of ( eg) their parents/ spouse/ old granny “up there, looking down on us”.
Is there any justification for the thought that the dead might be aware of what is going on in the lives of those they have left behind?
If I were in trouble, I would ask my friends and family living to pray for me. One assumes the Saints are sufficiently hallowed to be in the presence of God. So I see it as perfectly natural to seek their intercession and to rely on them for help.
https://aleteia.org/2023/10/20/understanding-veneration-in-catholicism/
Frankly I think Heaven and Hell are a stretch. Eternal conscious torment? Infinitely large Eden-like pleasure garden? I think Christian understanding of the afterlife has changed hugely since the NT was written.
In general the Orthodoxen do not pray for canonized saints. There would be no point.
I like @Nick Tamen's point about praying with saints/Saints and was intrigued by the details upthread from @Jengie Jon and the exchange between her and Nick on this one.
I was particularly struck by the comment that the Reformed might be 'uniquely placed' to comment on this issue. In what sense?
I'd agree that the Reformed have a distinctive take on many aspects of the Christian faith and that this often differs from what other Christians might expect or lay to their charge. At the risk of starting a tangent I would say that Calvin's 'take' on the Eucharist was particularly distinctive and quite possibly unique. I'd go as far as to suggest that the rest of us should pause and hear the Reformed out on that, if we haven't done so already.
I'm sure these things have come up though in ecumenical dialogue at the 'top levels', if we can put it that way. By and large though, this may not have percolated down into the parishes, congregations or pews.
'Oh, the Reformed tradition. They are the ones who are either hard-line Calvinists on the one hand or woolly URC-style liberals on the other ...'
'Oh, the RCs. They are the ones who pray to the Virgin Mary and believe the Pope's infallible ...'
'Oh, the Orthodox. They are the ones with the big beards and the icons ...'
And so on and so forth. So it's good to discuss what each tradition actually believes and practices and the range of viewpoints there might actually be in any one of them.
So, in what sense are the Reformed uniquely qualified? I can see that they might be distinctively qualified, but uniquely ...?
What would be unique about the Reformed approach to this matter that wouldn't appear among the RCs and Orthodox, say, or among the Lutherans, Anglicans or the Wesleyan and Wesleyan-derived Protestant traditions?
Beyond that, we could perhaps make some guesses, but I think to really answer you question, we’d have to figure out exactly what writing by which Baillie Jengie Jon is remembering. (As I said, it rings some faint bells with me too.) I’ve done a little bit of looking, but so far without success. I’ll keep at it though.
The RCs and Orthodox would lay claim to unique antiquity and continuity, of course.
What is the unique theological claim of the Reformed as opposed to other Protestants?
Again, what @Jengie Jon said is that recalls the argument being that the Reformed are “uniquely theologically suited to prayer with the saints.” “Suited to pray with the saints” and “qualified to comment on praying with the saints” are not at all the same thing.
And again, we could perhaps guess what argument the publication Jengie Jon recalls might have been making. They may even be educated guesses. But I don’t know how to actually answer your question without identifying the writing she is remembering, which I’m trying to do.
“Uniquely suited” doesn’t mean “better suited.” Rather, I would take it to mean suited in a particular and distinctive way.
I tried to suggest that there might be something 'particular and distinctive' about the Reformed approach by using the analogy of Calvin's views on the Eucharist. They were, I think we'd all agree, quite 'particular and distinctive'. They differ from some Lutheran understandings and also what we might call Zwinglian 'memorialism.'
So, by analogy, it could well be that there are equally 'particular and distinctive' Reformed perspectives on praying with the saints/Saints.
And yes, we would need to look at the particular writings that Jengie Jon cites.