While there is antidotal evidence to the contrary, over-all immigrants are not a threat to western culture. They assimilate over time, often they contribute to cultural renewal, and they are incubators for small business development.
I have a truly terrifying collection of anecdotes that American white people suck. And I am one.
Surely that's racist.
Or does racism not apply to white people?
Is that a rhetorical question aimed at scoring political points? Or is it an earnest request for information?
I'd like to respond, but my response depends on the intent. And online, it's very hard to read intent.
Should Muslims be excluded from western culture? No! Exclusion based on religion violated the core democratic value Western societies claim to uphold--freedom of religion, equality under the law and human dignity. Cultures that try to "freeze out" ethnic groups end up becoming brittle. Cultures that integrate newcomers become more resilient.
In the United States Muslims have been here since even before the Revolutionary War. They have long been citizens and voters. They are well represented as doctors, teachers, engineers. They are artists, writers, athletes as well. They are not "outsiders" knocking on the door. They are already woven into the social fabric
Exclusion itself, not the presence of Muslims, would undermine Western culture.
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
@WhimsicalChristian as you have required a hosting intervention less than 48 hours on from an admin warning, you will be suspended for two weeks shoreleave.
Yes, many ethnic celebrations in the United States take on characteristics that are not followed in the country of origin. In Mexico Cinco de Mayo marks the Battle of Puebla in which the Mexican Army defeated the French. It is not even a national holiday though. Outside the state of Puebla 5 May is a regular work and school day. Compare that to the US where it becomes a nationwide cultural celebration. It is far more widely celebrated in the US than in Mexico. Corporate marketing is a big driver of Cinco de Mayo in the US.
Likewise, corporate marketing is a big driver of the way St. Patrick's Day is celebrated in the US.
Anyway to make a buck.
BTW, I am sorry I used the feminine name for St Patrick. I know Paddy is the correct masculine name.
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
I always thought it was SOW-un?
Regardless, I try to think of the real St. Patrick for his saint’s day myself, and I’m not sure I’ve ever called him Paddy or Patty verbally or mentally. I do try to do some Irish/Irish-inspired food around the day, maybe play some Irish folk music. Every year I buy some Guinness and every year I forget to drink it though sometimes I cook with it.
As for Hallowe’en, I do like the fun stuff (trick or treating, spooky movies, candy) but also the actual spiritual aspects of it, the Eve of All Hallows’ (plus All Saints’ Day and All Souls’ Day/Dia de los Muertos and such).
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
And American Chinese food is profoundly different from Chinese Chinese food, ditto American Italian food. Mexicans in Mexico don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, but it's a big deal in California. The traditions immigrants bring to the US inevitably change after a while. While people abroad get their panties in a bunch about it I don't understand. The Japanese eat strawberry shortcake at Christmas and Christmas Eve is apparently a big date night - this does not affect my own understanding or celebration of Christmas.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
Why in the world does that get your underwear knotted? What does it matter to you? What stake do you have in how various American groups choose to refer to themselves? What experience do you have living in the US, a country overwhelmingly populated by immigrants and the descendants of immigrants, many of whom were ostracized and discriminated against by the descendants of European (well, at least parts of Europe—not Ireland, Italy or quite a few other places) immigrants, and who called themselves things like “Italian American” or “African American” to emphasize that they are just as fully American as the English Americans or French Americans?
With all due respect, there’s a bit of Trumpian dog whistling in your perspective.
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
And American Chinese food is profoundly different from Chinese Chinese food, ditto American Italian food. Mexicans in Mexico don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, but it's a big deal in California. The traditions immigrants bring to the US inevitably change after a while. While people abroad get their panties in a bunch about it I don't understand. The Japanese eat strawberry shortcake at Christmas and Christmas Eve is apparently a big date night - this does not affect my own understanding or celebration of Christmas.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location so I don’t know if you mean a philosophical or political or other perspective from within or outside the US, but I (I’m in the US, not that I think it’s relevant—see rest of sentence) have no problem with anyone using a hyphenated adjective to describe what kind of heritage-American they are. Or for that matter anyone from any other ethnicity and society, if that’s what they want to do. African-American, Chinese-Canadian, Hispanic Cambodian, Lemurian-Atlantean, Martian-Jupiterian. If it matters to someone to include that, for all kinds of reasons, let them do it.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location . . . .
@ThunderBunk is British, and since he said “from our perspective” rather than “from my perspective,” I assume he meant “from a British perspective.”
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location . . . .
@ThunderBunk is British, and since he said “from our perspective” rather than “from my perspective,” I assume he meant “from a British perspective.”
Aha, thanks. (I’m not convinced that all British people think this way…)
I think Americans identifying where our ancestry originates is part of our heritage. It shows how much of a mixed salad we really are. Gives us more flavor than most countries.
So, here's a very culturally specific story about racism from a very caucasian context...
I was going to meet my cousin's partner after a while. This being a cousin I've been there for multiple times over the years after a series of failed relationships and a pack of kids. I say this not to boast or to shame, she's had a hard life and I'm proud of her for surviving it. And I'm honored that I've had the opportunity to be there for her. And finally she has a good partner and I got a chance to meet the guy after a few chats online. I like him!
So he picks me up and asks me, very drily, "So, did you spit two teeth out as you crossed the state line?"
And this is the moment where I will pause and wonder who all here is familiar with the unfortunate regional stereotypes associated with West Virginia. See, when people don't have a lot of money, they can't afford good dental care. And when you can't afford good dental care, and/or the nearest dentist is a few hours' drive away, well...you just give up on your teeth at some point. So there is an old, gnarly, ugly-as-sin stereotype that poor white hicks from West Virginia and similar regions have bad teeth. It's one of those jokes that may well start a fight if you're an outsider (or at least earn you some truly epic dirty looks.) But if you're an insider or border case like me, it passes for a litmus test of your good humor and tolerance.
Taking this as a joke, I smiled. Months later I related to him that I was having an implant done, and he accepted that as honorary membership. We got a laugh out of that. Apparently I still have too many teeth.
My more-or-less brother-in-law can lightly crack a joke about missing teeth because he's from West Virginia. I'm from Western Maryland, next state over. Even with the same geography; we have "blue state" higher taxes, a higher standard of living, and better roads. I don't make those jokes. But if he tells a joke to me by way of introduction, I'm allowed to laugh with him and we're close enough that we can share in it. While we are all white people, even here the cultural boundaries deserve some respect.
Just being from one part of the USA, and migrating to another rather different part of the USA as an adult has given me an immigrant complex with a lot of odd feelings about where I grew up.
I can't even imagine how it'd play out after a few generations of separation.
One thing that makes me feel uncomfortable about St Patrick's Day in the USA is that it seems to revolve around what were originally ugly WASP stereotypes about drunken Irishmen. Like we're projecting or something.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
This demonstrates profound ignorance of North American life, and the meaning of those ethnic identifications to those who use them.
People who emigrated to North America found themselves in a bewildering sea of differing ethnic origins. Finding others of your own ethnic group was a source of safety and comfort. If you felt you were being threatened by members of X group, you could call upon members of your own Y group to stand with you and protect you. This was necessary in times and places where law enforcement was not strong, and/or uninterested in those conflicts.
Those ethnic affiliations may have been pathways toward securing employment, housing, and medical care, along with other social benefits.
Perhaps that can help you understand why those ethnic identifications were so important, and were taught to be important to descendants. They were sources of strength and even survival, and shared joy in common celebrations.
In the economy of the English language, "My ancestry is [Ethnicity-American]" or "I'm [Ethnicity-Canadian]" is often shortened to "I'm [Ethnicity]." It does not mean the speaker thinks they are a citizen of that country, or has voting rights there.
Given that history, I find it especially ironic to find deep and personal identification with football clubs in those same countries where some decry North American ethnic identification.
Um...yeah. America is huge. You don't even have to hyphenate to find different cultures. You just have to have lived in different parts of the country long enough to pick up a few divergent mannerisms.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location . . . .
@ThunderBunk is British, and since he said “from our perspective” rather than “from my perspective,” I assume he meant “from a British perspective.”
Just found this post I made a few hours ago in draft.
Aha, thanks. (I’m not convinced that all British people think this way…)
I read "from a British perspective" to imply that there are other British perspectives.
From my British perspective (from my Brethren parents) people could be Greek, Italian, Indian etc. and also British. It wasn't that important to me growing up as we were all children of God (lower case intended), just as we (tried) not to think in terms of class.
In Australia I remember hearing of an exchange -
Aussie "We like our immigrants. We call them New Australians."
American "We call ours Americans!"
This wasn't the only perspective. Italians and Greeks were known as
Wogs
. However, the TV program
Wogs Out Of Work
featuring them as the stars gave the term a positive connotation.
hidden text - racially offensive slur - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
“ New Australians”… dear God, I haven’t heard that expression in 50 years. It goes back to post WW2 migration ( exclusively from Europe) and quietly died after the White Australia Policy was scrapped by the Whitlam Government and the floodgates opened after the Vietnam War.
Haven’heard
“wog”
in at least 30 years; how times have changed in Oz.
Hidden text - racially offensive slur - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
“ New Australians”… dear God, I haven’t heard that expression in 50 years. It goes back to post WW2 migration ( exclusively from Europe) and quietly died after the White Australia Policy was scrapped by the Whitlam Government and the floodgates opened after the Vietnam War.
This was the terminology given to me when I first arrived in Australia in 1972.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location . . . .
@ThunderBunk is British, and since he said “from our perspective” rather than “from my perspective,” I assume he meant “from a British perspective.”
Aha, thanks. (I’m not convinced that all British people think this way…)
This one doesn't.
Why should it worry us how Americans choose to refer to themselves?
I've not come across any British people of my acquaintance who've become exercised over terms like 'African Americans' or 'Italian Americans.'
I know plenty of British people who get exercised over American-isms but that's a different issue.
On the Australian issues that have been mentioned, I heard the term 'New Australians' mentioned several times when I was there in December. I was also taken aback to hear young people of Greek or Italian heritage referring to themselves and their families as '
wogs
.'
That term has become highly offensive here in the UK, rather like the 'n' word.
I was told it didn't carry such negative connotations in Australia but to be brutally honest I was pretty shocked by the levels of casual racism I encountered over there, particularly towards indigenous peoples and newer migrant groups such as Middle-Eastern peoples, Indians and Pakistanis.
We British don't have room to talk but there was also something of an arrogant attitude towards the rest of the world. Australia was the best place to live anywhere in the world and whilst the UK and Europe were interesting places to visit because of the history and heritage they might as well **** off otherwise because Australia was better.
I can understand this to some extent as a reaction to patronising attitudes to 'colonials' that existed in the UK - and still do to a certain extent. We do have a stereotypical view of the 'Ocker' Aussie and, I'm afraid, there is a view that the 'average' white Australian is loud, uncultured and boorish.
Sorry.
I know that's not the case.
It's not as if we've got anything to boast about in that regard.
I had to bite my lip on several occasions over there though.
There were occasions though when 'bollocks' was the only appropriate response. I make no apologies for saying so.
Hidden text - racially offensive slur - la vie en rouge, Purgatory, host
@LatchKeyKid@Sojourner@Gamma Gamaliel I have placed the racially offensive term in your posts behind a cut. In future please remember to use hidden text for terms that others may wish to avoid reading.
Hostly beret off - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
I have previously asterisked the term 'w*gs' when quoting my Australian relatives or Australian Shipmates.
I hope nobody thinks it is a term I would use unless quoting those who do.
If I use it again I will hide it or not allude to it directly.
Meanwhile, the over-riding impression I picked up from my admittedly short stay (a month) in Aus was of a civic 'establishment' which was keen to promote ideas of diversity and tolerance through public art - some of it better than average - pronouncements in museums and art galleries, ads and billboards ' and due acknowledgement of indigenous peoples on information signs at scenic spots, beaches and national parks - whilst many white Australians were largely oblivious or determindedly hostile to such things.
I suspect this is partly because of a stereotypical Aussie reaction to 'authority' or the feeling that they were being preached at or patronised and partly because, quite frankly, lots of them really are bigots.
Sorry, but I can only speak as I find
My daughters liked Australia very much but found some of the attitudes they encountered thoroughly repellent.
Tell it not in Gath or Gundagai but a senior cleric I've met who grew up in Australia says the same. He thinks the state of Victoria in particular breeds complete fascists.
I hasten to add that not all white Australians I've encountered are racist bigots.
@LatchKeyKid@Sojourner@Gamma Gamaliel I have placed the racially offensive term in your posts behind a cut. In future please remember to use hidden text for terms that others may wish to avoid reading.
Hostly beret off - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
LVER:
Let me make it clear to to you and any other interested parties that “ New Australian” is not and ever was a “slur”.
It was politically correct in my white bread youth ( and BTW I was not born in Oz although my parents were) and although somewhat quaint was the sobriquet given to ( largely) European migrants post WW2.
I might add that my departed MIL for all her views would never have used the expressions
@Sojourner you literally quoted a host post whilst ignoring it, whilst also contesting a host post not in Styx. This is a c6 violation squared and I am giving you one week’s shoreleave.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
Does your repulsion extend to 'Anglo-Saxon'?
Back home, Anglo-Irish and Ulster Scots are historically informative, but I don't think commonly used as self descriptors. That would be either British or Irish.
I experienced a lot of people in Victoria, Australia in very mixed groups who were not racist at all. So if we are trading anecdotes, there's that.
Of course.
The senior clergyperson wasn't saying that all Victorians are fascists. I apologise if I gave that impression.
I also said that not all white Australians I met were racist. I did meet some very liberal Australians.
The irony with my relatives (who moved over long after we'd come back) is that they tell everyone they moved over to 'get away from Thatcher' then proceed to spout things that would make even the Iron Lady look like a cuddly ball of wool.
I too am a Brit that has no issue with terms like Italian-American or African-American, they are just descriptive terms. Not everyone who fits into such groups wants to use the terms, which is fine, but ime that's more about the terms not always being accurate - eg "Black Americans" is a wider group than "African-Americans".
It's not like the UK doesn't have our own equivalents - British people of South Asian descent often refer to themselves as British Asians, which seems to be linguistically almost identical to Asian-American even if the latter usually refers to East and Southeast Asian heritage instead.
Almost nobody describes themselves as British Asian because it is a nonsense term created for the census that in no sense represents very different groups of people.
They're much more likely to describe their heritage (Chinese, Persian, Pakistani) or their religion (Sikh, Muslim) or both.
Almost nobody describes themselves as British Asian because it is a nonsense term created for the census that in no sense represents very different groups of people.
It's not like the UK doesn't have our own equivalents - British people of South Asian descent often refer to themselves as British Asians
This is an older form that was somewhat popular about 15-20 years ago .. things have moved on since, which is why there was furore recently when that right wing podcaster said that Sunak wasn't English.
I English of Irish heritage. That is how I have heard it said in the UK.
I remember an ex colleague who was English and absolutely hated people saying to him “don’t be so English” it was popular for a while partly thanks to an IKEA advertisement. He regarded it as racism as if you said the same to say a Ghanaian it would be regarded as such.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
Does your repulsion extend to 'Anglo-Saxon'?
Back home, Anglo-Irish and Ulster Scots are historically informative, but I don't think commonly used as self descriptors. That would be either British or Irish.
As posted, scots-irish comes up in some parts of the US as a vague ethnic heritage that - with some research - I think is a coded way of saying your ancestors were something like Ulster Scots, or drawn from similar stock. Again, I'm partly that myself. A lot of Appalachians were from there.
The ethnic Australian slur reminds me of American poverty-slurs that are deeply insulting when used by outsiders and simultaneously affectionate pride-markers when used by insiders. That's a dynamic I'm familiar with, to the point that I'll sometimes appropriate them with some tongue-in-cheek. It's a curious experience to be able to do something like that.
In my experience, your mileage may vary a lot in terms of the American conversation around immigrants. Some of us are really accepting of people hyphenating and doing whatever, and some of us...aren't. Getting into the hows and whys of that is an intensely prickly conversation. I can have it, but it's hard to handle charitably.
In my experience, your mileage may vary a lot in terms of the American conversation around immigrants. Some of us are really accepting of people hyphenating and doing whatever, and some of us...aren't. Getting into the hows and whys of that is an intensely prickly conversation. I can have it, but it's hard to handle charitably.
I alluded to this upthread, but maybe it’s worth being explicit about it.
I can see how criticism of hyphenated American labels and “we’re all just Americans” can sound not only benign, but perhaps even aspirational as what we should be working towards. I get that. But the history of how variations of “we’re all Americans, not hyphenated Americans” has been used tells a different story.
For well over a century, “we should just be Americans, not hyphenated Americans” has gone hand-in-hand with an America/Americans first, America for Americans and anti-immigration stance. And “Americans” has meant “white Americans” or “Anglo-Saxon Americans.” That’s how the “we’re just Americans” framing has actually been used. We have decades of it meaning not “Italian or Irish Americans are just as American as the rest of of us,” but rather “Italian or Irish Americans are not real Americans.”
It can be heard coming from the Far Right today, and what the Far Right means by it is minority, immigrant cultures within American society should be marginalized or erased to allow for the “return” of a proper white Christian American society.
To say the hyphenated American phenomenon is about “claiming another culture” is just plain wrong and, as @Leaf, says, demonstrates profound ignorance. Those hyphenated American terms are about immigrant groups claiming their place in American society in the face of a power structure that has historically tried to keep them out. If any culture is being “claimed” by hyphenated American terms, it’s American culture that is being claimed.
It's profoundly ignorant, and profoundly rude. "Emetic" ? Seriously? Next time any Brit here comments on politeness being a hallmark of UK culture, I'll bring this up.
@Ruth you were enquiring what was causing knotting of underwear, and I answered. Possibly a little hyperbolically, but the spectacle of Americans claiming other cultures, and telling those cultures how they should work and what their symbols are, which does happen because I have heard it, is what causes the knotting of underwear on the part of non-Americans on the other end of such lectures. The fact that I was then repeatedly told that this is not a thing by many Americans, who can't possibly know what American culture looks like from the outside, is instructive.
ETA: I have an American partner, and am well-versed in the many wonderful things about Americans and their approach to the rest of the world, but this is one thing which I continue to have huge issues with. So does he, now that I've pointed it out to him, but the time this required was instructive in itself.
There are a lot of American cultures, speaking as someone who has lived in several. And it's my experience that there are also multiple British cultures. If you get close enough, you can find multiple cultures even in one city within America. Chicago is famously a city of neighborhoods and Rogers Park, while it is similar to Pilsen, is a different neighborhood with a different culture. Heck, you can travel to different parts of Rogers Park and experience different cultures. Come visit sometime! I can show you on a short walk!
It all depends on what range you choose to focus on. Sometimes it's more useful to focus on the micro, sometimes it's more useful to focus on the macro. Most people are better at seeing the nuances in their own community and less skilled at seeing the nuances in someone else's. At some point the denial of nuance can come across as willful antagonism, a la stereotyping.
You’re just making it worse, @ThunderBunk. You simply do not understand what you’re talking about, and your attitude that you need to explain it to the benighted North Americans among us is patronizing, or would be if your understanding weren’t so completely off-base as to be untethered to an informed opinion.
At the risk of pissing off American shipmates even further, I do kind of see what @ThunderBunk is getting at. Scotland has a kind of love-hate relationship with its diaspora, particularly in the US. Tourism here, especially around Edinburgh, relies on the "tartan shortbread tin" view of Scotland, and Americans who insist they're Scottish when even their grandparents never lived here can be wearing, almost to the point where it looks like cultural appropriation. Personally I'm not overly bothered but I can see why "Styrofoam Scots" and "Plastic Paddys" get on people's nerves.
At the same time there *are* cultural threads that tie American sub-cultures back to "the old country". It's not hard to trace a line from Scots and Ulster Scots Presbyterianism to PC (USA) and PCA, for example.
... the spectacle of Americans claiming other cultures,
Americans come from all over the world, i.e., from other cultures. More than a quarter of the residents in my city are foreign-born. All of their kids can and should claim the culture of their parents as well as American culture, which will change because they do.
Long Beach has the biggest population of ethnic Cambodian people outside Cambodia in the world. Why should they give up their heritage and their culture? Should the fantastic Cambodian restaurants all close? We also have large immigrant and immigrant-descended populations of people with Mexican, Filipino, Vietnamese, and Salvadorean heritage. Should they stop observing Dia de los Muertos? The lunar new year? Should the Pacific Island Ethnic Art Museum close? How about the Museum of Latin American Art (the only museum in the US totally dedicated to Latin American Art)?
I am an American estranged from the culture of my forebears. I would have to travel several hundred miles for a taste of Mennonite culture. Though Plautdietsch endured as the language spoken at home in my family for several generations after they started moving to the US, my father said "My kids are going to speak English" because he had started school in 1942 with no English. So I couldn't have a conversation with his mother, as her English never got past a rudimentary level.
You are arguing for deracination and for profound personal and cultural loss.
and telling those cultures how they should work and what their symbols are, which does happen because I have heard it,
If people find Americans irritating, they can address the situation as it happens. This is not a good argument for Americans to disavow our forebears and where we come from.
It's telling that it doesn't seem to have occurred to you that you're telling people from a culture you don't belong to how that culture should operate.
ETA: I have an American partner, and am well-versed in the many wonderful things about Americans and their approach to the rest of the world, but this is one thing which I continue to have huge issues with. So does he, now that I've pointed it out to him, but the time this required was instructive in itself.
I think there's a distinction to be drawn between cultural traditions immigrant communities take with them and the activities of those who "discover their heritage" generations later in a way that is unconnected to the customs and practices of the "old country" they're laying claim to.
While many of the American ethnic cultural days diverge from their origins, I do not think Americans intentionally want to tell the originating country how they should be celebrating their own heritage. We do a lot of mixing and matching in our country. Just who and what we are. As Ruth said, if we do become irritating, address the situation directly.
@Basketactortale@chrisstiles when I was growing up in the 90s and 00s in a city with a large South Asian community, British Asian was very much the normal term amongst South Asians. I was aware that it was a bit old-fashioned now - does Radio 1 still have the Asian Network? - but it was definitely used by British South Asians at the time as an own-language term.
Comments
Is that a rhetorical question aimed at scoring political points? Or is it an earnest request for information?
I'd like to respond, but my response depends on the intent. And online, it's very hard to read intent.
In the United States Muslims have been here since even before the Revolutionary War. They have long been citizens and voters. They are well represented as doctors, teachers, engineers. They are artists, writers, athletes as well. They are not "outsiders" knocking on the door. They are already woven into the social fabric
Exclusion itself, not the presence of Muslims, would undermine Western culture.
@WhimsicalChristian as you have required a hosting intervention less than 48 hours on from an admin warning, you will be suspended for two weeks shoreleave.
Doublethink, Admin
[/Admin]
Likewise, corporate marketing is a big driver of the way St. Patrick's Day is celebrated in the US.
Anyway to make a buck.
BTW, I am sorry I used the feminine name for St Patrick. I know Paddy is the correct masculine name.
I always thought it was SOW-un?
Regardless, I try to think of the real St. Patrick for his saint’s day myself, and I’m not sure I’ve ever called him Paddy or Patty verbally or mentally. I do try to do some Irish/Irish-inspired food around the day, maybe play some Irish folk music. Every year I buy some Guinness and every year I forget to drink it though sometimes I cook with it.
As for Hallowe’en, I do like the fun stuff (trick or treating, spooky movies, candy) but also the actual spiritual aspects of it, the Eve of All Hallows’ (plus All Saints’ Day and All Souls’ Day/Dia de los Muertos and such).
It is. mh in Irish and Scots Gaelic is either a w or v sound, depending on context. It's never an m sound.
And American Chinese food is profoundly different from Chinese Chinese food, ditto American Italian food. Mexicans in Mexico don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, but it's a big deal in California. The traditions immigrants bring to the US inevitably change after a while. While people abroad get their panties in a bunch about it I don't understand. The Japanese eat strawberry shortcake at Christmas and Christmas Eve is apparently a big date night - this does not affect my own understanding or celebration of Christmas.
With all due respect, there’s a bit of Trumpian dog whistling in your perspective.
And KFC for Christmas in Japan!
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location so I don’t know if you mean a philosophical or political or other perspective from within or outside the US, but I (I’m in the US, not that I think it’s relevant—see rest of sentence) have no problem with anyone using a hyphenated adjective to describe what kind of heritage-American they are. Or for that matter anyone from any other ethnicity and society, if that’s what they want to do. African-American, Chinese-Canadian, Hispanic Cambodian, Lemurian-Atlantean, Martian-Jupiterian. If it matters to someone to include that, for all kinds of reasons, let them do it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4bf7LlCc20QDcd2r0PYGC0c/black-and-scottish-i-thought-i-was-the-only-black-person-in-the-world
Aha, thanks. (I’m not convinced that all British people think this way…)
I was going to meet my cousin's partner after a while. This being a cousin I've been there for multiple times over the years after a series of failed relationships and a pack of kids. I say this not to boast or to shame, she's had a hard life and I'm proud of her for surviving it. And I'm honored that I've had the opportunity to be there for her. And finally she has a good partner and I got a chance to meet the guy after a few chats online. I like him!
So he picks me up and asks me, very drily, "So, did you spit two teeth out as you crossed the state line?"
And this is the moment where I will pause and wonder who all here is familiar with the unfortunate regional stereotypes associated with West Virginia. See, when people don't have a lot of money, they can't afford good dental care. And when you can't afford good dental care, and/or the nearest dentist is a few hours' drive away, well...you just give up on your teeth at some point. So there is an old, gnarly, ugly-as-sin stereotype that poor white hicks from West Virginia and similar regions have bad teeth. It's one of those jokes that may well start a fight if you're an outsider (or at least earn you some truly epic dirty looks.) But if you're an insider or border case like me, it passes for a litmus test of your good humor and tolerance.
Taking this as a joke, I smiled. Months later I related to him that I was having an implant done, and he accepted that as honorary membership. We got a laugh out of that. Apparently I still have too many teeth.
My more-or-less brother-in-law can lightly crack a joke about missing teeth because he's from West Virginia. I'm from Western Maryland, next state over. Even with the same geography; we have "blue state" higher taxes, a higher standard of living, and better roads. I don't make those jokes. But if he tells a joke to me by way of introduction, I'm allowed to laugh with him and we're close enough that we can share in it. While we are all white people, even here the cultural boundaries deserve some respect.
I can't even imagine how it'd play out after a few generations of separation.
One thing that makes me feel uncomfortable about St Patrick's Day in the USA is that it seems to revolve around what were originally ugly WASP stereotypes about drunken Irishmen. Like we're projecting or something.
This demonstrates profound ignorance of North American life, and the meaning of those ethnic identifications to those who use them.
People who emigrated to North America found themselves in a bewildering sea of differing ethnic origins. Finding others of your own ethnic group was a source of safety and comfort. If you felt you were being threatened by members of X group, you could call upon members of your own Y group to stand with you and protect you. This was necessary in times and places where law enforcement was not strong, and/or uninterested in those conflicts.
Those ethnic affiliations may have been pathways toward securing employment, housing, and medical care, along with other social benefits.
Perhaps that can help you understand why those ethnic identifications were so important, and were taught to be important to descendants. They were sources of strength and even survival, and shared joy in common celebrations.
In the economy of the English language, "My ancestry is [Ethnicity-American]" or "I'm [Ethnicity-Canadian]" is often shortened to "I'm [Ethnicity]." It does not mean the speaker thinks they are a citizen of that country, or has voting rights there.
Given that history, I find it especially ironic to find deep and personal identification with football clubs in those same countries where some decry North American ethnic identification.
I read "from a British perspective" to imply that there are other British perspectives.
From my British perspective (from my Brethren parents) people could be Greek, Italian, Indian etc. and also British. It wasn't that important to me growing up as we were all children of God (lower case intended), just as we (tried) not to think in terms of class.
In Australia I remember hearing of an exchange -
Aussie "We like our immigrants. We call them New Australians."
American "We call ours Americans!"
This wasn't the only perspective. Italians and Greeks were known as
hidden text - racially offensive slur - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
Haven’heard
Hidden text - racially offensive slur - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
This was the terminology given to me when I first arrived in Australia in 1972.
My late MIL ( whom I first met in 1974) was probably the last user of “New Australian” that I encountered and even she gave it up by the early 80s.
This one doesn't.
Why should it worry us how Americans choose to refer to themselves?
I've not come across any British people of my acquaintance who've become exercised over terms like 'African Americans' or 'Italian Americans.'
I know plenty of British people who get exercised over American-isms but that's a different issue.
On the Australian issues that have been mentioned, I heard the term 'New Australians' mentioned several times when I was there in December. I was also taken aback to hear young people of Greek or Italian heritage referring to themselves and their families as '
That term has become highly offensive here in the UK, rather like the 'n' word.
I was told it didn't carry such negative connotations in Australia but to be brutally honest I was pretty shocked by the levels of casual racism I encountered over there, particularly towards indigenous peoples and newer migrant groups such as Middle-Eastern peoples, Indians and Pakistanis.
We British don't have room to talk but there was also something of an arrogant attitude towards the rest of the world. Australia was the best place to live anywhere in the world and whilst the UK and Europe were interesting places to visit because of the history and heritage they might as well **** off otherwise because Australia was better.
I can understand this to some extent as a reaction to patronising attitudes to 'colonials' that existed in the UK - and still do to a certain extent. We do have a stereotypical view of the 'Ocker' Aussie and, I'm afraid, there is a view that the 'average' white Australian is loud, uncultured and boorish.
Sorry.
I know that's not the case.
It's not as if we've got anything to boast about in that regard.
I had to bite my lip on several occasions over there though.
There were occasions though when 'bollocks' was the only appropriate response. I make no apologies for saying so.
Hidden text - racially offensive slur - la vie en rouge, Purgatory, host
@LatchKeyKid @Sojourner @Gamma Gamaliel I have placed the racially offensive term in your posts behind a cut. In future please remember to use hidden text for terms that others may wish to avoid reading.
Hostly beret off - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
I hope nobody thinks it is a term I would use unless quoting those who do.
If I use it again I will hide it or not allude to it directly.
Meanwhile, the over-riding impression I picked up from my admittedly short stay (a month) in Aus was of a civic 'establishment' which was keen to promote ideas of diversity and tolerance through public art - some of it better than average - pronouncements in museums and art galleries, ads and billboards ' and due acknowledgement of indigenous peoples on information signs at scenic spots, beaches and national parks - whilst many white Australians were largely oblivious or determindedly hostile to such things.
I suspect this is partly because of a stereotypical Aussie reaction to 'authority' or the feeling that they were being preached at or patronised and partly because, quite frankly, lots of them really are bigots.
Sorry, but I can only speak as I find
My daughters liked Australia very much but found some of the attitudes they encountered thoroughly repellent.
Tell it not in Gath or Gundagai but a senior cleric I've met who grew up in Australia says the same. He thinks the state of Victoria in particular breeds complete fascists.
I hasten to add that not all white Australians I've encountered are racist bigots.
LVER:
Let me make it clear to to you and any other interested parties that “ New Australian” is not and ever was a “slur”.
It was politically correct in my white bread youth ( and BTW I was not born in Oz although my parents were) and although somewhat quaint was the sobriquet given to ( largely) European migrants post WW2.
I might add that my departed MIL for all her views would never have used the expressions
(ETA spoiler text racial slurs, DT, Admin)
@Sojourner you literally quoted a host post whilst ignoring it, whilst also contesting a host post not in Styx. This is a c6 violation squared and I am giving you one week’s shoreleave.
Doublethink, Admin
[/Admin]
Doublethink, Admin
Does your repulsion extend to 'Anglo-Saxon'?
Back home, Anglo-Irish and Ulster Scots are historically informative, but I don't think commonly used as self descriptors. That would be either British or Irish.
Of course.
The senior clergyperson wasn't saying that all Victorians are fascists. I apologise if I gave that impression.
I also said that not all white Australians I met were racist. I did meet some very liberal Australians.
The irony with my relatives (who moved over long after we'd come back) is that they tell everyone they moved over to 'get away from Thatcher' then proceed to spout things that would make even the Iron Lady look like a cuddly ball of wool.
'I'm not racist but ...' sort of thing.
It's not like the UK doesn't have our own equivalents - British people of South Asian descent often refer to themselves as British Asians, which seems to be linguistically almost identical to Asian-American even if the latter usually refers to East and Southeast Asian heritage instead.
They're much more likely to describe their heritage (Chinese, Persian, Pakistani) or their religion (Sikh, Muslim) or both.
That's not necessarily true.
This is an older form that was somewhat popular about 15-20 years ago .. things have moved on since, which is why there was furore recently when that right wing podcaster said that Sunak wasn't English.
I remember an ex colleague who was English and absolutely hated people saying to him “don’t be so English” it was popular for a while partly thanks to an IKEA advertisement. He regarded it as racism as if you said the same to say a Ghanaian it would be regarded as such.
As posted, scots-irish comes up in some parts of the US as a vague ethnic heritage that - with some research - I think is a coded way of saying your ancestors were something like Ulster Scots, or drawn from similar stock. Again, I'm partly that myself. A lot of Appalachians were from there.
The ethnic Australian slur reminds me of American poverty-slurs that are deeply insulting when used by outsiders and simultaneously affectionate pride-markers when used by insiders. That's a dynamic I'm familiar with, to the point that I'll sometimes appropriate them with some tongue-in-cheek. It's a curious experience to be able to do something like that.
In my experience, your mileage may vary a lot in terms of the American conversation around immigrants. Some of us are really accepting of people hyphenating and doing whatever, and some of us...aren't. Getting into the hows and whys of that is an intensely prickly conversation. I can have it, but it's hard to handle charitably.
I can see how criticism of hyphenated American labels and “we’re all just Americans” can sound not only benign, but perhaps even aspirational as what we should be working towards. I get that. But the history of how variations of “we’re all Americans, not hyphenated Americans” has been used tells a different story.
For well over a century, “we should just be Americans, not hyphenated Americans” has gone hand-in-hand with an America/Americans first, America for Americans and anti-immigration stance. And “Americans” has meant “white Americans” or “Anglo-Saxon Americans.” That’s how the “we’re just Americans” framing has actually been used. We have decades of it meaning not “Italian or Irish Americans are just as American as the rest of of us,” but rather “Italian or Irish Americans are not real Americans.”
It can be heard coming from the Far Right today, and what the Far Right means by it is minority, immigrant cultures within American society should be marginalized or erased to allow for the “return” of a proper white Christian American society.
To say the hyphenated American phenomenon is about “claiming another culture” is just plain wrong and, as @Leaf, says, demonstrates profound ignorance. Those hyphenated American terms are about immigrant groups claiming their place in American society in the face of a power structure that has historically tried to keep them out. If any culture is being “claimed” by hyphenated American terms, it’s American culture that is being claimed.
ETA: I have an American partner, and am well-versed in the many wonderful things about Americans and their approach to the rest of the world, but this is one thing which I continue to have huge issues with. So does he, now that I've pointed it out to him, but the time this required was instructive in itself.
More generally,
There are a lot of American cultures, speaking as someone who has lived in several. And it's my experience that there are also multiple British cultures. If you get close enough, you can find multiple cultures even in one city within America. Chicago is famously a city of neighborhoods and Rogers Park, while it is similar to Pilsen, is a different neighborhood with a different culture. Heck, you can travel to different parts of Rogers Park and experience different cultures. Come visit sometime! I can show you on a short walk!
It all depends on what range you choose to focus on. Sometimes it's more useful to focus on the micro, sometimes it's more useful to focus on the macro. Most people are better at seeing the nuances in their own community and less skilled at seeing the nuances in someone else's. At some point the denial of nuance can come across as willful antagonism, a la stereotyping.
I’d stop digging.
At the same time there *are* cultural threads that tie American sub-cultures back to "the old country". It's not hard to trace a line from Scots and Ulster Scots Presbyterianism to PC (USA) and PCA, for example.
Long Beach has the biggest population of ethnic Cambodian people outside Cambodia in the world. Why should they give up their heritage and their culture? Should the fantastic Cambodian restaurants all close? We also have large immigrant and immigrant-descended populations of people with Mexican, Filipino, Vietnamese, and Salvadorean heritage. Should they stop observing Dia de los Muertos? The lunar new year? Should the Pacific Island Ethnic Art Museum close? How about the Museum of Latin American Art (the only museum in the US totally dedicated to Latin American Art)?
I am an American estranged from the culture of my forebears. I would have to travel several hundred miles for a taste of Mennonite culture. Though Plautdietsch endured as the language spoken at home in my family for several generations after they started moving to the US, my father said "My kids are going to speak English" because he had started school in 1942 with no English. So I couldn't have a conversation with his mother, as her English never got past a rudimentary level.
You are arguing for deracination and for profound personal and cultural loss.
If people find Americans irritating, they can address the situation as it happens. This is not a good argument for Americans to disavow our forebears and where we come from.
It's telling that it doesn't seem to have occurred to you that you're telling people from a culture you don't belong to how that culture should operate.
"Some of my best friends are Americans!"
Funny, some of my best friends are Americans too.