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Fucking Guns

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  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Anoesis why Christchurch? The cricket team's attendance could have been a factor, as far as publicity goes, but I am also aware that Christchurch is known to have small but virulent a group of white supremacists. Occasionally they hold a rally of maybe 20 people and are vastly outnumbered by counter protesters, never the less they are persistent.

    Whoever this group were they seemed to be well organised as explosives were stolen from the railways a few days ago. I can't say for certain that these were the ones that have been discovered in cars parked in a couple of places, but it seems likely.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    40 dead. I can't read anymore.

    I did see four people are in custody.

    edit: removed a question which wasn't appropriate at this time...sorry if you saw it
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    romanlion wrote: »
    Sounds like Brazil and NZ need to tighten up their gun laws, shame they didn't do that already.

    That is a truly dreadful post. So far, the official count is 40 people dead - 40 people who ought be alive but now dead as a result of right-wing terrorist activity. If you had any sense of decency, you would withdraw your post; in fact, had you any sense of decency you would not have posted it in the first instance.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    I'm not remotely defending romanlion. But I think he wasn't wishing for Christians (or anyone else) to be shot. More like he was saying that when they are shot (particularly in the places he mentioned), they don't get much news coverage--or help.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    May I consign an Australian senator to hell here? Fraser Anning, you are a turd of the highest order^.

    One of his many tweets on this:
    The real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand streets today is the immigration program that allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to New Zealand in the first place.

    ^ yes, we all knew he was a dipshit before, but this just enforces it...
  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate
    Huia wrote: »
    Anoesis why Christchurch? The cricket team's attendance could have been a factor, as far as publicity goes, but I am also aware that Christchurch is known to have small but virulent a group of white supremacists. Occasionally they hold a rally of maybe 20 people and are vastly outnumbered by counter protesters, never the less they are persistent.

    Whoever this group were they seemed to be well organised as explosives were stolen from the railways a few days ago. I can't say for certain that these were the ones that have been discovered in cars parked in a couple of places, but it seems likely.

    I used to live in Christchurch. I've seen those folk in the square. Unless things have changed quite a bit, I wouldn't rate them as being able to do much more than cut their own toenails, without help. But who knows, I guess...
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thanks for finding that Climacus - I had hoped for a better response from him, but obviously hoped in vain. I hope his is on of the Senate seats which will become vacant for the next election. I think it probably is.

    In the meantime, we are shattered. We've cancelled plans we'd made to go out for dinner and despite knowing none of the dead, have wept from time to time. Then we think of turds like romanlion and now Anning and weep again.
  • Shit, I'm so sorry you have joined the sad collection of communities that have suffered this kind of thing.

    It's terrible when it happens anywhere, but in NZ... I never imagined that even being a possibility.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Admin mode
    romanlion wrote: »
    Sounds like Brazil and NZ need to tighten up their gun laws, shame they didn't do that already.

    As @RooK has correctly observed, this is one hundred percent trolling.
    romanlion wrote: »
    I just wish the victims had been Christians in Nigeria, or Egypt, or Chechnya.

    And this amounts to hate speech.

    You've been given more than enough leeway - and warnings - to mend your ways and be a constructive contributor here, whatever your views.

    Our patience has now come to an end.

    I wish I could say it gives me great pleasure to do my first ever banning, but it doesn't even do that. Bye-bye.

    /admin mode
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin Emeritus
    edited March 2019
    Well, having just woken up and catching up on my infernal domain, I see that shit has already been flushed.

    We have standards, even in Hell. Let the reader understand.

    DT
    HH
  • I've not read the manifesto and don't want to - let the stinking thing die unread.

    However I understand that this outrage was somehow done with a salute to a YouTube celebrity.

    I mean, seriously.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    My son came in at 4 A.M. to tell me about this and I came straight here to get the latest information from people who actually live in New Zealand. The ship is wonderful for it's international membership, but it also increases the sadness because, " I know people..."

    So sorry.

    Mr. Cheesy: "However I understand that this outrage was somehow done with a salute to a YouTube celebrity."
    Seriously, indeed. I just found out yesterday, due to the college entrance scandal, that there's such a thing as an "influencer." Good God.
  • A bitter tweet that I saw: "I didn't think there was white supremacist violence in New Zealand". "How do think that New Zealand became New Zealand".
  • ZappaZappa Shipmate
    A bitter tweet that I saw: "I didn't think there was white supremacist violence in New Zealand". "How do think that New Zealand became New Zealand".

    That's fair, though I suspect you'll be pillaged for it. Many commentators here are trying to emphasize that not just this atrocious act of evil but the evil paroxysms of right wing (or any wing) hatespeech are a cancer that mut be excised from our narratives. Nationally, internationally.

    They won't be of course, but we must try. We must learn to hate hate.

    We join our friends in Norway who have seen this. We know our friends in the US see this too often. We know our cousins across the ditch saw this at Port Arthur. We weep with friends.

    Meanwhile the death toll has reached 49 mothers fathers brothers sisters sons daughters. My country is devastated (though no doubt it has been naive, so naive).

    As for that Australian senator, I hope he never tries to set foot in this country. :angry:

  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    I can't begin to express how shocked and heart sick I was this morning when I heard about this hateful atrocity. For my friends on the other side of this planet, I grieve with you. For everyone who expects to worship in peace and finds that peace shattered by hate, there are no words, just tears and agony.

    How do we stop the hate? I mean this from the depths of my soul.
  • Climacus wrote: »
    May I consign an Australian senator to hell here? Fraser Anning, you are a turd of the highest order^.

    One of his many tweets on this:
    The real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand streets today is the immigration program that allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to New Zealand in the first place.

    ^ yes, we all knew he was a dipshit before, but this just enforces it...

    Google Fraser Anning now and read the Wikipedia page summary on the right (don't go to the wikipedia article itself). Someone has done some creative editing. Google him quickly before some moderator manages to change it.
  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate

    Google Fraser Anning now and read the Wikipedia page summary on the right (don't go to the wikipedia article itself). Someone has done some creative editing. Google him quickly before some moderator manages to change it.

    55 mins after your post - it's still there.
  • anoesisanoesis Shipmate
    A bitter tweet that I saw: "I didn't think there was white supremacist violence in New Zealand". "How do think that New Zealand became New Zealand".
    Zappa wrote: »
    That's fair, though I suspect you'll be pillaged for it.

    I can put my hand up right now and say I've been guilty of thinking to myself, on occasion, 'We may have problems, but they're not as big as Australia's problems'. Well, now they're bigger.

    I wish I could fucking do something.
  • NiteowlNiteowl Shipmate
    It makes me sick, There needs to be a clear repudiation of the hate groups and the ideology they adhere to. Politicians found to embrace the ideology need to be stripped of their offices.

  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    I am out for breakfast before I head to the local Field Days. An armed policeman with some form of (semi?) automatic weapon is outside the city's Islamic Centre. I almost drove off the road seeing him. It was a jolt of the highest order.

    Loads of flowers outside the gates of the centre.

    I'm still rather stunned. I was in Australia during Port Arthur and the subsequent gun reform...I never thought I'd see anything like this here in NZ. I do feel numb. Oddly, when I was in Lebanon and saw what looked like teenagers with high-powered guns atop tanks it did not faze me (it was a shock, though) as much as seeing a policeman with a powerful weapon here does. I guess that says more about me and my, what?, prejudice?, than anything else. Sorry for blabbing on...just trying to make sense of it.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    {{{{{{{Everyone affected by the shootings in Brazil and NZ, and anywhere else}}}}}}}
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Climacus wrote: »
    An armed policeman with some form of (semi?) automatic weapon is outside the city's Islamic Centre.

    The synagogue closest to me has an armed security guard out front every single Saturday morning during their services.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    anoesis wrote: »

    I used to live in Christchurch. I've seen those folk in the square. Unless things have changed quite a bit, I wouldn't rate them as being able to do much more than cut their own toenails, without help. But who knows, I guess...

    Yes, I did wonder about that myself after I posted. . These attacks required an organization I think they lacked.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Huia wrote: »
    anoesis wrote: »

    I used to live in Christchurch. I've seen those folk in the square. Unless things have changed quite a bit, I wouldn't rate them as being able to do much more than cut their own toenails, without help. But who knows, I guess...

    Yes, I did wonder about that myself after I posted. . These attacks required an organization I think they lacked.

    Over at Esquire, Charlie Pierce* has an explanation of the origin of the template used in these kinds of attacks.
    It is now perfectly plain that Anders Breivik, the murderous white-supremacist who killed 72 people in Norway in 2011, has become one of the most significant figures in international terrorism since the demise of Osama bin Laden. It is not merely the magnitude of Breivik's own violence, although that remains stunning in itself. Breivik formed the template for the modern white-supremacist mass murder.

    From Ted Kaczynski, he borrowed the idea of publishing a manifesto. From the Columbine killers, he borrowed the idea of using both bombs and guns. And from the international white-supremacist networks, he borrowed the murderous rage and bloodthirsty rhetoric necessary to carry out acts of mass murder, and to justify his crimes through an elaborate bullshit ideological exoskeleton that he wore like body armor. He put all of this together and created the modern mode of mass political murder, one that was carried out again Thursday in Christchurch, New Zealand.

    That killer even was gentleman enough to credit Breivik as an inspiration . . .


    *Esquire has a paywall around Pierce's work that will allow non-subscribers to view any three of his articles and then nothing of his ever again . . . until you clear your cookies.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Climacus wrote: »
    An armed policeman with some form of (semi?) automatic weapon is outside the city's Islamic Centre.

    The synagogue closest to me has an armed security guard out front every single Saturday morning during their services.

    I heard about such things only a few days ago on a BBC World Service report on a Pittsburgh synagogue. My heart weeps. No safety even in religious locations... I can't imagine what it would be like to go to worship and pass an armed guard. I'd probably stay at home (not that I've been going to church much these days...)
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Climacus wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    Climacus wrote: »
    An armed policeman with some form of (semi?) automatic weapon is outside the city's Islamic Centre.

    The synagogue closest to me has an armed security guard out front every single Saturday morning during their services.

    I heard about such things only a few days ago on a BBC World Service report on a Pittsburgh synagogue. My heart weeps. No safety even in religious locations... I can't imagine what it would be like to go to worship and pass an armed guard. I'd probably stay at home (not that I've been going to church much these days...)

    There are churches here in the US with armed guards now, either because of crime in the community, because people have killed at church to settle personal vendettas, because of mass shootings at churches like the one that happened not so long ago in Texas, and, in one case that I remember from years ago, because one church was the site of the murder of a doctor (George Tiller) who performed late-term abortions.

    St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC has armed guards constantly, because, as both a landmark church and a tourist site, it is a potential target for terrorist attacks.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Climacus wrote: »
    I can't imagine what it would be like to go to worship and pass an armed guard.

    I'm told that the security company sends the same guy every week, so worshippers know him and consider him a part of their community.

    This may be a bit ironic in light of one cause of the recent use of the admin banhammer, but the NZ PM says, "I can tell you one thing right now: our gun laws will change" (Guardian article).
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    On considering in the cold light of day what the troll said, he may be right, but I think it was the way he said it.

    When compared internationally the laws are more strict than many other countries, but they do need to be reviewed in light of recent events.

    Croesus - thanks for that. I am not reading all the details as I'm finding the information overwhelming, but I will follow that up.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Re dealing with social media videos, etc.:

    I happened to surf into "How to Block Violent Videos on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube" (Lifehacker).

    I'm not on social media, myself, but most of you probably are. The article was written as a response to the NZ incidents and the social media fallout. It gives tips on blocking, on taking time away, AND has a link on how to donate to help the victims.

    **NOTE**: SENSITIVITY WARNING

    The main article has a composite (Facebook page?) pic of a row of related photos (cars and ambulances, as far as I can tell) and then a row of feel-good cat pics at the top of the page. The link for the donation article and the article itself have a pic of a makeshift memorial.

    Just FYI, because that kind of thing can sometimes make suffering worse.


  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    The troll was gloating that a mass shooting had happened somewhere with tighter gun laws than the USA, like the empathy-free zone he always was.
  • What a messed up world we live in.

    Guns are obviously not a prerequisite for terrorists to kill random people, but it helps.

    But then even without guns they find a way - because they are hate-filled ideologues with their minds full of violence.
  • I got into a bit of trouble yesterday for saying that the far far right and far far left link up around the back - fairly uncontroversial I thought, but never mind.

    But there is something of a horrible lock step between the white fascist extremists and the worst Islamic extremists too. Both are tied into this idea of extreme redemptive violence and they appear to frame the world in similar ways.

    Bastards, the whole lot of them.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    I've mentioned this before, but there is a relevant and useful distinction to be made between religious practice and violent extremism. The problem is the latter, whether or not religious practice is attached or invoked.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    I've mentioned this before, but there is a relevant and useful distinction to be made between religious practice and violent extremism. The problem is the latter, whether or not religious practice is attached or invoked.

    Possibly not the place to debate this here, but I think I disagree. Fascism and the various complementary and corrollary beliefs are dangerous in themselves.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The troll was gloating that a mass shooting had happened somewhere with tighter gun laws than the USA, like the empathy-free zone he always was.
    Although in point of fact, New Zealand gun laws are loose enough that the killer had acquired the guns he used legally.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    In relation to the main subject of this thread, which has always been shootings in the US, two things so far in reporting from NZ have stood out - things that we've been saying here for years.

    1. That the NZ PM almost immediately said that the gun laws in NZ will need to be revised, so that it becomes harder for people like this particular evil individual to get hold of guns. Which is a big contrast to the usual response from the government in the US that "now is not the time".

    2. That there appears to have been a "good guy with a gun" at the scene. As we'd expect, he had no chance to do anything to prevent mass murder, or even stop it earlier by shooting the gun man. His presence did mean that several police officers were engaged in arresting him, questioning him before determining that he was no involved. Police officers who would otherwise have been deployed in a more direct response to the events. Contra the NRA nutters calling for more "good guys" to have guns, this shows that not only is this ineffective but also counter productive in making the job of the police harder.

    Whenever there's a tragedy of this sort, wherever that is, there's nothing wrong with all of us from seeing what we can learn to try and reduce the chances of something similar happening again. And, it's not all about gun control, though making it harder for criminals to get hold of guns is never going to be a bad idea. We also need to address the politics and media of our nations which encourage and support extremism; in the UK we're a long way short of rooting out the support for Islamaphobia, it wasn't that long ago that we had senior politicians making outrageous comments likening women to post boxes and bank robbers without any official sanction for that.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    mr cheesy wrote: »
    I got into a bit of trouble yesterday for saying that the far far right and far far left link up around the back - fairly uncontroversial I thought, but never mind.

    But there is something of a horrible lock step between the white fascist extremists and the worst Islamic extremists too. Both are tied into this idea of extreme redemptive violence and they appear to frame the world in similar ways.

    Bastards, the whole lot of them.

    Two cheeks of the same arse, I think the phrase is.
  • AthrawesAthrawes Shipmate
    I understand that semi-automatic weapons are going to be banned. The gunman owned several guns legally, including 5 of these.

  • I'm very sorry this has happened in NZ. My Mum went in for dental surgery on Friday, so I have been in an internet free zone while I help her out. I tag team on these things with my sister.

    The pictures on the telly, and now reading the posts from the Kiwis among you are reminiscent of the shock felt throughout the community when this happened to us in 1996. I understand that NZ has tried to pass three sets of tighter gun laws since then, and I hope now that Jacinda Ardern can marshall Parliament to make the necessary changes now.

    The shock will fade for all but those closest to these events. You will be a safer place for this.

    On the issue of fortified places of worship, at least one Synagogue in Melbourne, Temple Beth Israel has had armed guards, and a full suite of security features including cameras everywhere. Unfortunately, it is necessary.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    1. That the NZ PM almost immediately said that the gun laws in NZ will need to be revised, so that it becomes harder for people like this particular evil individual to get hold of guns. Which is a big contrast to the usual response from the government in the US that "now is not the time".
    We're perpetually sending thoughts and prayers in the US. Though don't over-credit the NZ government; they should have got this done a while ago and apparently couldn't manage it. I hope they can go Australia's route on this. I despair of such sense ever prevailing in the US, of course.
    And, it's not all about gun control, though making it harder for criminals to get hold of guns is never going to be a bad idea. We also need to address the politics and media of our nations which encourage and support extremism...
    The two are intertwined in the US. Extremism on the right is part of why we don't have decent gun control laws.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    [Tangent]

    Thanks to those responsible for the recent (IMO, long overdue) banning.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin Emeritus
    While I appreciate the sentiment, no more of this tangent here please. One party isn't here to contest the call, and the others hang out in Styx...

    DT
    HH
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    The long overdue banning everyone here is still waiting for is the one where the US government bans the ownership of guns. Or, at the very least those guns which have no purpose except to kill other people.
  • The long overdue banning everyone here is still waiting for is the one where the US government bans the ownership of guns. Or, at the very least those guns which have no purpose except to kill other people.

    Sadly, I fear we're going to wait for that a long time.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    And, more importantly than the actual number of years, we'll have to wait through thousands of needless deaths, and thousands more grieving friends and relatives.
  • Enraging but true.
  • The man who greeted people at the door of the mosque said this. 'Hello brother,' first New Zealand mosque victim said to shooter.

    #HelloBrother is thus a twitter trend. Many messages say that deploring violence isn't enough. The anti-Muslim rhetoric must be challenged whenever it is said, whether by a random person, political or the head of a country. No to racism. No to white supremacists who ever they are.
  • The long overdue banning everyone here is still waiting for is the one where the US government bans the ownership of guns. Or, at the very least those guns which have no purpose except to kill other people.

    Amen!

    I miss the :not worthy: emoji.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    Look at the ABC website for the photo of the NZ fern on the Opera House roof (sorry, tried BBCode but that end in a complete mess).
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2019
    As a sort of non-Hellish aside, we prayed at Mass this morning not only for the victims of the Christchurch outrage, but also for our local Ahmadiyya Mosque, just round the corner from Our Place.

    Father NewPriest is writing a letter to their Imam, expressing our sorrow, and our solidarity, even though we're on the opposite side of the world.

    There is indeed little else that we can do, I guess.
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