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Fucking Guns

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  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    ... They won't be included in the statistics, which are awful enough already, but they deserve to be.
    My thoughts exactly when I saw that terrible news. :heartbreak:
  • mental illness, disability, the list goes on.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Some of the extreme reactions against the victims, survivors, and loved ones probably made things much worse. Like the (bleeping) conspiracy theory that the Newtown shootings were a hoax. (AIUI, Alex Jones of the InfoWars broadcast especially pushed it.) And all the stuff on social media against the Parkland kids.
  • I'm pretty sure it was one of the children of my Mum's lifelong friends who was so upset by a short string of bank robberies where she worked as a young woman in the 1980's that she had to leave work and is still troubled by crippling anxiety. I knew another former bank employee through church who went through the same thing.

    The same thing happened to a bloke I worked with at a servo doing night shift. He used to bring in some dope to share with me at shift change, and one night after I left (like about 20 mins) he got held up. His Dad owned the place, but he couldn't bring himself to work there again, let alone at night and alone. We lost touch after that, but I sure hope he got straightened out. He was trouble with a capital T, but he was nice.

    None of those robberies involved people getting shot as far as I know. Just getting a weapon shoved in your face is enough, especially if you are high, like my poor mate Jammo was.
  • There is a factoid circulating (which I cannot confirm) that more kids were shot in the USA last year than USA active military and police members. If accurate, that means having a parent with a gun is more dangerous than serving in Iraq.

    It doesn't, by itself, mean that. Taking this factoid at face value (usual comments, etc.), you also need to know how many active duty military are serving in Iraq, and how many parents own guns, in order to make the determination that you make.

    That niggle aside, I agree, of course. Guns are not only dangerous tools - they are lethal weapons which popular entertainment shows in use all the time. Even very young kids know exactly what you do with handguns - you point them at people and pull the trigger. Kids are going to imitate movies / cartoons / whatever with them. You shouldn't leave anything dangerous accessible to small children, but handguns are especially seductive.
  • As it turns out - darn paywall, still can't see the whole thing -they were comparing number of kids shot at school, so the gun at home angle isn't addressed. That kind of makes it worse, though, doesn't it? Hey kids, wanna go to school or go to Iraq? Hmmm, let me think ...
  • I know a bloke who went to Afghanistan and was a mechanic working on choppers. He was still in danger, but he gets embarassed when people thank him for his service and stuff. He feels like he wasn't really in danger and doesn't deserve the praise from being a Vet. Shows the quality of the bloke I reckon. Anyway, he says that the main problem he had was fighting the Romanian contingent for the cherry tomatos in the canteen salads. He reckons that for some reason they used to pinch all the bloody tomatos and he had to have salad without that juicy tomato goodness. War is hell.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    So is the problem over that side of the pond actually unsolvable? I gu mss a new President could tighten laws but at the moment POTUS is not going to. So the question stands is it unsolvable?
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    No, it's not unsolvable. Fundamentally what's needed is to work on the legal system and the political system in exactly the way the NRA worked on the legal system and political system over many decades, introducing ideas about what the 2nd Amendment meant that gradually won out.

    Ideas that earlier judges had regarded as complete bullshit.

    If enough work is done on the legal front, pointing to the earlier decisions and arguing that over the last generation or so a bad legal error has crept in, and that the earlier precedents should be gone back to and jurisprudence in the second half of the 20th century regarded as a wrong deviation, then it becomes possible to implement sensible gun laws.

    Then there's the political will of course.

    In BOTH cases what it takes is frankly a lot of money, power and influence. If the NRA can do it, so can the anti-NRA.

    There's also of course the vague possibility of giving funding and influence to the sensible gun folk, the ones who don't scream about how the whole world is out to get you and you need a gun in your pocket or handbag to save yourself, and helping them take over the NRA again. Because the NRA wasn't always run by a bunch of fruitloops. The fruitloops took over. And the fruitloops can be kicked out again.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    There is a factoid circulating (which I cannot confirm) that more kids were shot in the USA last year than USA active military and police members. If accurate, that means having a parent with a gun is more dangerous than serving in Iraq.

    So much for protecting the family.

    Well no, it doesn't, because there a lot more kids than serving military, so a larger proportion of the latter may still die.

    Point that it isn't very protective still stands.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    orfeo wrote: »
    ...There's also of course the vague possibility of giving funding and influence to the sensible gun folk, the ones who don't scream about how the whole world is out to get you and you need a gun in your pocket or handbag to save yourself, and helping them take over the NRA again. Because the NRA wasn't always run by a bunch of fruitloops. The fruitloops took over. And the fruitloops can be kicked out again.
    It's sure not my father's NRA anymore. When he joined, as a teenage hunter and black-powder target shooter, they were primarily a conservation group that safeguarded the rights of hunters. In the last 30 years, at least, they've gone totally off the deep end. I think a fair number of (sane) gun owners have come to recognize that fact.


  • Did the Americans get coverage of all the rallys and gatherings in Wellington this week? Or has the news cycle moved on?
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Today the NZ Parliament was voting on a change to the gun laws in response to the attack on two mosques in Christchurch. One M.P, Leader of the ACT Party and its sole M.P, was opposing this legislation, and was planning to force the House into urgency to debate it. When the time came he was so busy talking to journalists about his views he missed the vote so it was passed unanimously. :smiley:

    His return to the House bought laughter from all other parties.

    Dipstick.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    ROTFL Maybe we can get some Congress critters to do the same...
  • Beautiful Huia, and well done Kiwiland.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    It's sure not my father's NRA anymore. When he joined, as a teenage hunter and black-powder target shooter, they were primarily a conservation group that safeguarded the rights of hunters. In the last 30 years, at least, they've gone totally off the deep end. I think a fair number of (sane) gun owners have come to recognize that fact.

    A strong case can be made that the NRA no longer functions as a lobbying group for gun owners but rather a lobbying group for gun manufacturers. Which is how you get NRA officials deliberately trying to stir "false flag" conspiracy theories about mass shootings.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    Crœsos wrote: »
    A strong case can be made that the NRA no longer functions as a lobbying group for gun owners but rather a lobbying group for gun manufacturers...
    I think a strong case can be made for that.


  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    How possible would it be to limit the kind of gun one can own? If you couldn’t own a military grade weapon without a good reason then that would surely meet the NRAs right to own a gun but limit the bloodshed a little as none military style guns cause more damage. That could be a start and you negotiate from there.
    Just to say I am a Brit who doesn’t Like general gun ownership.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Hugal--

    Assault weapons have been periodically banned, then come back. To the extent that the NRA hierarchy is a sock puppet for gun makers, it's unlikely to be for any kind of restrictions on any kind of gun. To the extent that the hierarchy and/or members are religiously and righteously devoted to the right to bear arms...if all the various shootings--especially Sandy Hook/Newton--haven't gotten through to them, I'm not sure anything can. Kind of like a group of dwarves in the last Narnia book: they've gotten through to Aslan's country (part of Heaven), but they're so stubborn and deluded that they can't see any of its wonderfullness. Even Aslan seems unsure whether they'll change.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Thanks Golden Key. It looks like more serious bloodshed then.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    How possible would it be to limit the kind of gun one can own?

    One of the reasons that people choose to own guns is to defend themselves against "bad guys" - by which they mean kill them. And the thing about a gun suitable for killing multiple hypothetical bad guys that are attacking you is that it is also good at killing multiple innocent schoolchildren / concert goers / whoever.

    If you take "self-defense" off the table, so you're just considering guns suitable for hunting, or for shooting at bits of paper, then the possibilities open up rather more.
  • jbohnjbohn Shipmate
    In the case of the InfoWars crowd, there's a definite subtext of protecting themselves from the "gub'mint" and black helicopters, FEMA concentration camps, and black presidents/people.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Even though I know it is legal over there and I saw guns and bullets in Walmart one time we went over there, it is still hard to believe that guns can be for sale not for sporting purposes or to cut down vermin.
    Having them because the bad guys have them leads to a mini arms race. Where does it stop? What if they have hand grenades do you get them?
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    For some people, it appears that the "bad guys" is the US government, who have a massive nuclear arsenal.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    A strong case can be made that the NRA no longer functions as a lobbying group for gun owners but rather a lobbying group for gun manufacturers. Which is how you get NRA officials deliberately trying to stir "false flag" conspiracy theories about mass shootings.

    Thanks for that insight. I really couldn't understand why the NRA were so interested in gun ownership here or Australia, but that makes sense of it.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Alan--
    For some people, it appears that the "bad guys" is the US government, who have a massive nuclear arsenal.

    Hmmm...while I know of lots of worries, fears, and theories Americans have and/or had about the US gov't, I don't think I've ever come across a worry that they'll use the nukes on Americans. Possibly staging some kind of nuclear disaster, like 3 Mile Island. But not just nuke Americans.

    Mind, people can do anything, especially when they're afraid of losing political or personal power. And/or they're batshit crazy.

    IME, Americans are much more apt to worry about the gov't nuking someplace else, accidentally or on purpose.--and vice-versa. (See the movies "Failsafe" and "War Games", for example.) And the literal fallout from that.

    That's not even tagging the worries about homegrown dictatorship, mind-control, intelligence agencies, surveillance, taking guns away so the gov't can oppress people more easily, etc., etc.
  • I'm not sure I'm being fair or even relevant, but when I saw this story about a guy in Canberra who threatened to kill people at specific Christian churches I thought, (a) thank God they caught him in time, and then (b) what if he was in America?

    I'm so glad he got caught. The reported evidence of the psychiatrist is very scary.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    One of the reasons that people choose to own guns is to defend themselves against "bad guys" - by which they mean kill them. ... If you take "self-defense" off the table, so you're just considering guns suitable for hunting, or for shooting at bits of paper, then the possibilities open up rather more.
    Not necessarily.

    My father taught me how to shoot (tin cans, bits of paper) with a .22 rifle as a child; I enjoyed it, as some people enjoy swatting tennis balls or golf balls.

    When I was a Struggling Young Artist, living in a gentrifying neighborhood that wasn't quite there yet, there were a series of break-ins and some rapes in my apartment building. My father loaned me Snubby, his .38 calibre Chief's Special revolver.

    At about 2 one morning, the door of my studio flat creaked open. I picked up Snubby and cocked it. It's a single-action revolver, and I didn't need to cock it, but it makes a distinctive noise, which was what I wanted: I did not want to kill him, but I didn't want to be a victim, either.

    In less time than it takes to type the words, he was out of my apartment, down two flights of stairs, and down the alley out of sight. That was what I wanted.

    My father gave me Snubby, and some other firearms, before he died. I sold the others, but I kept Snubby, because I'm a handicapped woman living alone, and I'm still not interested in being a victim. It's locked up, but I can get to it quickly, if I need to. I pray I never do.


  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    I'm glad it worked, Rossweisse! :)

    One of the problems with reining in gun use and ownership is that the pro-gun slogans and ideas aren't necessarily altogether wrong.

    E.g., "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns". That's true. Whether or not that's a bad thing...sometimes, guns can at least help even the odds. That was the case for Rossweisse. And I remember a news story, a couple years back, about an incident in a convenience store in Washington state. A man with a licensed, concealed-carry gun was shopping. Another man came in with some sort of knife, etc., and IIRC confronted the first man, then moved on to the cashier--and started stabbing him. The shopper shot the attacker dead, saving the cashier. The shopper was a wreck afterwards. He'd never done anything like that. A Shipmate posted on the gun thread that this is the kind of situation pro-carry folks are talking about, where you need a good guy with a gun.

    I don't have a gun, and I don't want one. I did a little bit of target shooting with rifles as a kid, with grownups. Fired from a prone position. Wasn't awful, but wasn't something I particularly wanted to do again. The rifles were kept at the very front of a frequently-used closet, with the ammunition right there, too. Don't know if they were loaded. I think they were kept there for quick protection. They were there all through my childhood, with a mind-bogglingly stupid mental disconnect about safety. Fortunately, I wasn't the sort of kid who messed about with stuff to figure out how it worked.

    I'm meandering. Anyway, I don't want a gun. But, in some particular circumstances (living way out in the Boonies, dealing with a stalker, etc.), I might consider it.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    I’m still not keen as guns even as self-defence. A couple of years ago my sister-in-law was living on a farm five minutes’ drive from the nearest neighbours and was on occasion alone there at night. Her security consisted of three German shepherds.

    I don’t believe she would have been safer with a fire-arm than with the dogs.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin Emeritus
    If all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target.
  • Nowadays people can use recordings of barking dogs to scare away would-be burglars.

    In the same way, if a recording of a dog works to make people move on, a recording on your phone of a gun being cocked might work too.
  • Mr Clingford, I saw an episode of Would I Lie to You in which one of the contestants claimed to call a dog named Henry (IIRC) to put off would be assailants if he was walking the streets at night.

    I agree, self-defence is a really shit reason to justify gun ownership, but possibly not in a country actually awash with guns.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    In New Zealand you cannot get a firearms licence if you state that your purpose for owning a gun is self defence.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    If all you have is a gun, everything looks like a target.
    Not necessarily. It is, or should be, a very last resort.

    I have an alarm system, and I'm conscientious about using it. I have neighbors who keep an eye out for me, as I do for them. I'm not a dog person (and I couldn't walk one now in any event, since I'm in a wheelchair), but I agree that they're a great deterrent. I used to practice self-defense moves, but those are now impossible for me. And there are people who watch for, and prey on, the handicapped, particularly small women like me. I think it makes sense for me to have that particular insurance policy locked up but close by in my closet. For others, it might not.

    (And few things frighten me more than people who think they should be able to tote their weapons with them everywhere they go.)

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Alan--
    For some people, it appears that the "bad guys" is the US government, who have a massive nuclear arsenal.

    Hmmm...while I know of lots of worries, fears, and theories Americans have and/or had about the US gov't, I don't think I've ever come across a worry that they'll use the nukes on Americans.
    It was a somewhat facetious comment in relation to the concept of an arms race where the "bad guys" have bigger/more weapons. Which is a rather stupid reason to get more/bigger weapons yourself.

  • I should point out that in the calling out to a dog named Henry situation, the caller did not actually have a dog. :)
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    An American baby shower: Yesterday, five people, including two children, were shot and wounded at a family party in Chicago.
  • fuck
  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    Twilight wrote: »
    An American baby shower: Yesterday, five people, including two children, were shot and wounded at a family party in Chicago.
    I saw that. Horrible. I hope they catch the bastards.


  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Just on the news, another 12 dead, this time in Virginia, adding to the growing cost of not tightening gun laws.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Another slaughter of ordinary citizens, for no discernible reason, at another ordinary American workplace. Another day in America . . .
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Just on the news, another 12 dead, this time in Virginia, adding to the growing cost of not tightening gun laws.
    Here is a link. Cue the "thoughts and prayers" from those who have no intention of doing Thing One about it.
  • The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of innocent bystanders.
  • I wonder how long it will be before the NRA suggests that Americans wear bullet proof vests while going about their daily activities.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I wonder how long it will be before the NRA suggests that Americans wear bullet proof vests while going about their daily activities.

    Just as soon as they take out sufficient stock in the manufacturers of bullet-proof vests.
  • RooKRooK Shipmate
    One might hope that the NRA finishes going bankrupt sooner rather than later. Perhaps supplanted by an actual gun owners association, though nothing would be safe from manufacturer's lobbying money for long.
  • It said on the news this is the 150th mass shooting in the USA this year, which makes it just shy of one a day for 2019 and fatalities average out at 1 per shooting. But while the number of fatalities may seem relatively small, there are no statistics I can find for the number permanently maimed or traumatised for the rest of their life.

    When you look at homicides in general by firearm the total for 2017 was nearly 40,000. In addition the suicide-by-firearm rate is roughly 20,000 per year, and then there are the "accidental" fatalities - in 2014 over 2,500 children aged 0-19 died by gunshot.

    In the name of God, what is it with a country that they can just dismiss these deaths as just so much collateral damage?
  • Generation Lockdown This video was created for the March for our Lives organisation. It shows a child talking a group of teachers through the lockdown procedure she was taught.
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