Bunches in my experience do not equal pigtails. In bunches, the hair is held close to the head by some elastic, and then hangs loose. In pigtails, the hair is plaited (braided) and then held at the end by some elastic. Greta Thunberg has pigtails. Though possibly hers are too long to be pigtails proper, just plaits.
A quick image search of bunches pulls up a variety, some cute, some weird. The same of pigtails pulls up images of both styles, and Wikipedia suggests a wide interpretation of the term, so I can see where LC is coming from. But where I grew up, pigtails were always plaits.
I wore my hair in pigtails most of my childhood in NW PA They were two braids. Others around me said that pigtails were not braided. Maybe the difference was because my mom was raised in Florida.
My definition was Southern California. I never had enough length in hair to braid, so it was exploding pigtails all the way. No plaits. Can't do plaits even today, unless I do a lot of them--hair much too thick and too much of it. It's that Cherokee heritage, I'm telling you.
I wore my hair in pigtails when I was a little girl: hair parted in the centre, then gathered on each side of the head with elastics, usually above the ears. No braiding was involved. The gathered hair hung down in curly loops like... a pig's tail.
In my parlance, Greta Thunberg wears her hair in braids.
I may have read the word "plaits" and figured out from context what was meant. I would have pronounced it the same as "plates." It was only when I was watching The Great British Baking Show that I heard the word "platted" bread and could not figure out what was wanted. Did platted mean flattened, like plateau? When they produced braided loaves I understood. Platted (plaited) is utterly unknown here as a word for braid.
My mother plaited my hair into pig tails as a child. Sometimes my aunt would do my braids. On a side note once my mother was in the hospital and my father had to do my hair. He said, "Well I know how to braid the horse's tail so guess I can do yours."
Not round my way. Braid is a fabric term, with strands of yarn woven into a narrow strip - the weaving is usually diagonal, a complex plaiting arrangement. I have a vague image of Sami (Lapp) braids, which may not be diagonal.
And from geography, braided rivers, with criss-crossing streams between shingle banks.
Not hair.
I remember stories by Zenna Henderson in which her People "plaited the twishers" to use their power. I'm wondering if that was in the American editions or if the ones I read had been Britishised.
I remember stories by Zenna Henderson in which her People "plaited the twishers" to use their power. I'm wondering if that was in the American editions or if the ones I read had been Britishised.
The word was actually "platted," not "plaited," though I grant it might have been derived from "plaited."
When I think of plaits I think of something flat, like a broad ribbon. A braid in a woman's hair doesn't seem very plait-like.
Maybe we're getting it from the same source, whatever that is. I tend to think of something that is looser and therefore flatter--the part up on the head is of course flat to the head, and the hanging down bits are still not particularly tight or fat (and therefore not so three-dimensional.) But that might just be the result of seeing endless illustrations of people with pale, fine hair described as "in plaits"--you couldn't get a proper three-dimensional braid out of that stuff if you tried. When I think "braid," I'm thinking of something sufficiently tightly woven that it could theoretically be used for rope, or at least cord. Something like what you see on old American Indian photos.
Another way of getting at it--I read novels where some idiot tries to pull a girl by her plaits and the plaits rip at least partly from the scalp. If you tried to do that with an American braid, you could drag the whole girl by the braids. Nothing loose, flat or whispy about them.
What do you call French braids? The ones that are not dangling free but within the head of hair? In the 1970s sophisticated men wore them with fringed shirts.
Thanks for the Henderson spelling, LC. I wondered when I posted it, but couldn't get at the books to check. I always assumed, from the description in the books, that it was a process not unlike plaiting.
I'm thinking it would be interesting to find why we have these two words used for a pair of related things, but with opposite meanings according to where the users of the words live. At which point in time did they separate? Were they used differently in the home countries, and an existing difference became fixed on crossing the ocean?
Just checking in my Old English dictionary. There is a root word for braid with a meaning, along with a lot of others which are hard to relate to it, of weaving and knotting. Plait doesn't appear, unless as "plett" with the meaning "fold". That seems to come from Latin, via French, and be related to pleat. And pleating does not include any crossing over or knotting action. Odd. I was wondering whether colonists from the part of Britain with dialect related to Norse had dominated the development in America, and it looks as though that might be true.
strangely enough, "tissues" is one of the rare cases where we don't use the brand name in our house
we talk about doing the Hoovering, for vacuum cleaning, and Sellotape for any sticky tape.
I've heard that the Australian equivalent to (UK) Sellotape and (US) Scotch tape is Durex. It has been known to lead to occasional cross-cultural awkwardness.
I have no doubt that you've heard that, but we've not heard it for decades - and even then it was not common.
See, I was just going to say someone had been having Stercus Tauri on. I've got no recognition of that term, whereas I'd probably understand both Sellotape or Scotch tape.
When I went out to Australia in 2002 I was warned about the Durex confusion, and then found it wasn't an issue. No one warned me about thongs however....
And thank you for the reminders about Zenna Henderson. They will be good comfort reading.
I remember the ‘durex’ confusion from the ‘80s with an Australian lad studying over here in the UK. He told us how it had caused some concern with his landlady...
strangely enough, "tissues" is one of the rare cases where we don't use the brand name in our house
we talk about doing the Hoovering, for vacuum cleaning, and Sellotape for any sticky tape.
I've heard that the Australian equivalent to (UK) Sellotape and (US) Scotch tape is Durex. It has been known to lead to occasional cross-cultural awkwardness.
I have no doubt that you've heard that, but we've not heard it for decades - and even then it was not common.
See, I was just going to say someone had been having Stercus Tauri on. I've got no recognition of that term, whereas I'd probably understand both Sellotape or Scotch tape.
I first heard it in the early 70s from an Australian post grad student in Aberdeen. I still remember the occasion when it was explained to him. But yes, that's a long time ago.
Yes, well, we've established in a different thread that to you they are. But I'm a middle-aged man and I have some difficulty remembering much of Kindergarten in '79.
Typically 50 is described as middle aged. It's not a half way point to death by years.
Exactly my point - middle-aged is an attitude, not a chronological age. There was a fellow in my year who was middle-aged when he started uni - like most of us, he chronological age was 17.
Which makes even less sense of your comment. You set an age of 50, and now you're declaring that it's an "attitude" rather than a chronological age, while claiming that you're agreeing with @NOprophet_NØprofit ?
You're not. And you don't even realise it.
This is frankly ridiculous. If middle-aged is an attitude, then you have absolutely no business in trying to tell me I'm too young to be middle-aged in the first place.
I'm middle-aged. The 70s were a long time ago. You're old. Deal with it.
Yes, well, we've established in a different thread that to you they are. But I'm a middle-aged man and I have some difficulty remembering much of Kindergarten in '79.
Which makes even less sense of your comment. You set an age of 50, and now you're declaring that it's an "attitude" rather than a chronological age, while claiming that you're agreeing with @NOprophet_NØprofit ?
You're not. And you don't even realise it.
This is frankly ridiculous. If middle-aged is an attitude, then you have absolutely no business in trying to tell me I'm too young to be middle-aged in the first place.
I'm middle-aged. The 70s were a long time ago. You're old. Deal with it.
70 years old can be young. The term "older adult" is used a fair bit to describe over 60 or 65. Some 70 year olds look and act like they're in their 50s. Some people in their 50s look and act like they're 70. If you're old when you're 40, my immediate thoughts are health status: smoking, alcohol consumption, diet, stamina, chronic health conditions.
If you're young when you're 70 I think you probably have a family history that helps. But this isn't genes. It's the list above plus the "social determinants of health". Plus the attitudes toward activities of life. There's a nice list here, with a list specific to Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_determinants_of_health
So you're not required to be "middle aged" at any age. Consider people you know at the same age: some will be healthy and fit, some will be less so. And consider why.
Things as simple as it being possible to walk versus must drive a car are social determinants of health.
70 is not "young". That's just fucking with language beyond what it can endure. If you live to be 90 or 100, you're old for a long time, you're not young at 70.
Yep. A 70-year-old can have a young or youthful attitude, or even have the health of a younger person or look younger than 70, but 70 years is still 70 years, and 70 years ain’t young for a human.
70 is not "young". That's just fucking with language beyond what it can endure. If you live to be 90 or 100, you're old for a long time, you're not young at 70.
70 is not "young". That's just fucking with language beyond what it can endure. If you live to be 90 or 100, you're old for a long time, you're not young at 70.
This. You can't be either "young at 70" or "old at 70". The clue is that 70 represents your age. All those other things are doing is comparing your health or behaviour to your actual age.
Confusing this objective fact with the question of mental attitude is what leads to nonsense like the Dutch guy who went to court to get his date of birth changed on his birth certificate because he didn't feel that old.
We weren't discussing how I look and act, not least because the vast majority of you have never laid eyes on my fair and rosy complexion. The entire knowledge base was that I was in Kindergarten in '79. As were many, many other people born around the same time as me, regardless of whether they're currently "acting their age", "old before their time" or having a mid-life crisis involving young girlfriends and sports cars.
My father was not quite 103 when he died, and that is very old. I'm recently 73 and my sisters are 76 and not quite 78; we are old, although such euphemisms as "not as young as we once were" are gentle on the ears. The younger of my sisters and I take after our father so we may well have a fair bit of time left.
jj raises a Hostly eyebrow
It seems to me that there is a wee spat taking place. Shall we get back to the subject of the thread?
Thank you for your kind attention. jj cranks the eyebrow to neutral position
I have just consulted Pippi Longstocking (1954 translation), and Pippi's hair is "braided into pigtails". That is therefore clearly the correct terminology.
I have just consulted Pippi Longstocking (1954 translation), and Pippi's hair is "braided into pigtails". That is therefore clearly the correct terminology.
I can't find biographical details for the translator: I think it's a Scandinavian surname. The publication details say the translation was first published in the UK.
And thank you for the reminders about Zenna Henderson. They will be good comfort reading.
The movie "The People" was made from those books. Saw it on TV as a kid, and it made an impression on me. I later read the books, but barely remember them.
Comments
A vest in the UK is underwear. A leather one doesn't sound comfortable.
A quick image search of bunches pulls up a variety, some cute, some weird. The same of pigtails pulls up images of both styles, and Wikipedia suggests a wide interpretation of the term, so I can see where LC is coming from. But where I grew up, pigtails were always plaits.
MMM
*south east England
Vest:US::waistcoat:UK
In my parlance, Greta Thunberg wears her hair in braids.
I may have read the word "plaits" and figured out from context what was meant. I would have pronounced it the same as "plates." It was only when I was watching The Great British Baking Show that I heard the word "platted" bread and could not figure out what was wanted. Did platted mean flattened, like plateau? When they produced braided loaves I understood. Platted (plaited) is utterly unknown here as a word for braid.
And from geography, braided rivers, with criss-crossing streams between shingle banks.
Not hair.
I remember stories by Zenna Henderson in which her People "plaited the twishers" to use their power. I'm wondering if that was in the American editions or if the ones I read had been Britishised.
The word was actually "platted," not "plaited," though I grant it might have been derived from "plaited."
Maybe we're getting it from the same source, whatever that is. I tend to think of something that is looser and therefore flatter--the part up on the head is of course flat to the head, and the hanging down bits are still not particularly tight or fat (and therefore not so three-dimensional.) But that might just be the result of seeing endless illustrations of people with pale, fine hair described as "in plaits"--you couldn't get a proper three-dimensional braid out of that stuff if you tried. When I think "braid," I'm thinking of something sufficiently tightly woven that it could theoretically be used for rope, or at least cord. Something like what you see on old American Indian photos.
Another way of getting at it--I read novels where some idiot tries to pull a girl by her plaits and the plaits rip at least partly from the scalp. If you tried to do that with an American braid, you could drag the whole girl by the braids. Nothing loose, flat or whispy about them.
I'm thinking it would be interesting to find why we have these two words used for a pair of related things, but with opposite meanings according to where the users of the words live. At which point in time did they separate? Were they used differently in the home countries, and an existing difference became fixed on crossing the ocean?
Just checking in my Old English dictionary. There is a root word for braid with a meaning, along with a lot of others which are hard to relate to it, of weaving and knotting. Plait doesn't appear, unless as "plett" with the meaning "fold". That seems to come from Latin, via French, and be related to pleat. And pleating does not include any crossing over or knotting action. Odd. I was wondering whether colonists from the part of Britain with dialect related to Norse had dominated the development in America, and it looks as though that might be true.
See, I was just going to say someone had been having Stercus Tauri on. I've got no recognition of that term, whereas I'd probably understand both Sellotape or Scotch tape.
And thank you for the reminders about Zenna Henderson. They will be good comfort reading.
MMM
I first heard it in the early 70s from an Australian post grad student in Aberdeen. I still remember the occasion when it was explained to him. But yes, that's a long time ago.
Yes, well, we've established in a different thread that to you they are. But I'm a middle-aged man and I have some difficulty remembering much of Kindergarten in '79.
What. Is. The. Average. Life. Expectancy?
Okay then.
Exactly my point - middle-aged is an attitude, not a chronological age. There was a fellow in my year who was middle-aged when he started uni - like most of us, he chronological age was 17.
You're not. And you don't even realise it.
This is frankly ridiculous. If middle-aged is an attitude, then you have absolutely no business in trying to tell me I'm too young to be middle-aged in the first place.
I'm middle-aged. The 70s were a long time ago. You're old. Deal with it.
I'm not old - I'm ancient.
You're a mere youngster. Enjoy!
70 years old can be young. The term "older adult" is used a fair bit to describe over 60 or 65. Some 70 year olds look and act like they're in their 50s. Some people in their 50s look and act like they're 70. If you're old when you're 40, my immediate thoughts are health status: smoking, alcohol consumption, diet, stamina, chronic health conditions.
If you're young when you're 70 I think you probably have a family history that helps. But this isn't genes. It's the list above plus the "social determinants of health". Plus the attitudes toward activities of life. There's a nice list here, with a list specific to Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_determinants_of_health
So you're not required to be "middle aged" at any age. Consider people you know at the same age: some will be healthy and fit, some will be less so. And consider why.
Things as simple as it being possible to walk versus must drive a car are social determinants of health.
Wait a few years.
This. You can't be either "young at 70" or "old at 70". The clue is that 70 represents your age. All those other things are doing is comparing your health or behaviour to your actual age.
Confusing this objective fact with the question of mental attitude is what leads to nonsense like the Dutch guy who went to court to get his date of birth changed on his birth certificate because he didn't feel that old.
We weren't discussing how I look and act, not least because the vast majority of you have never laid eyes on my fair and rosy complexion. The entire knowledge base was that I was in Kindergarten in '79. As were many, many other people born around the same time as me, regardless of whether they're currently "acting their age", "old before their time" or having a mid-life crisis involving young girlfriends and sports cars.
It seems to me that there is a wee spat taking place. Shall we get back to the subject of the thread?
Thank you for your kind attention.
jj cranks the eyebrow to neutral position
jj-HH
What was the nationality of the translator?
The movie "The People" was made from those books. Saw it on TV as a kid, and it made an impression on me. I later read the books, but barely remember them.