If asked I would pray for what they asked generally. It tends to be for an illness or a twist or broken bone. Or for wisdom in a situation, to find a job something like that. I have no trouble with this.
Set prayers are nice for me as they connect me with the Communion of Saints (ie Everybody). Anything "set" that I pray has been prayed by so many people in so many situations as well as in every possible combination of belief/doubt/fear/hope.
So it's like a sharp piece of rock now smoothed to a pebble in a flowing stream. So there is "a place" for me on that surface.
I don't often feel "one of the crowd" but I do when I pray set prayers.
Btw, Prayers don't have to go anywhere - they just are
I'd been wondering why I find set prayers in church so soothing, in spite of the fact I don't believe we can petition God for concrete interventions as such. Your description of how these prayers affect you went a long way to explain why I find satisfaction in these prayers too.
You know the answer. Never do I hear a public prayer that acknowledges the fact that God cannot intervene, ever, except ineffably 'by the Spirit', yearning passively, immanently alongside us, in us for us to be His hands, feet, ears, voices and wallets.
Whilst I would agree with you here, I often pray that people may be given strength, patience or tenacity to help them cope with what they are going through. It's as though whilst I believe God isn't got to intercede in any sort of physical way, he is able to affect people's mental well-being. This may be irrational - I don't know.
I do pray generally for the situation, but I place it in God's hands, as I do with my own situations, rather than beg God for a particular outcome, because I see it that God's perspective is bigger than mine and knows better than me what is best.
I once was asked by someone to pray that her disabled brother, who shared a house with their elderly mother, would realise it was the right thing to move house, and stop selfishly wanting to remain in that house when it was clearly best for the mother to move, and the mother's needs were more important than his. This prayer request demanded that I agree with this woman's perception of the situation and what was the right thing to do and whose needs were more important, and I simply couldn't do this. Besides, I didn't know anything about the situation other than what she told me. I told her it sounded like it was very important to her to control the situation and to get God to agree with her, and maybe it would be less stressful for her to entrust the situation to God, and that this was how I would pray.
It is hard when people are convinced they know what God's will is, and they expect you to trust they are right and are offended if you question. This same woman was running a Facebook Bible group and had given one member a leadership role in some Bible study thing, and then later decided she didn't feel right about this, and that God was clearly telling her this person shouldn't have this role. So she told the person that it was no longer God's will for her to be doing it, and was incredibly offended that this person questioned - she saw it that this person was questioning God's will. I tried to explain to her that this person had no way of knowing for certain that God has told someone something, just because that person claims it, and she simply couldn't get her head round this. This is a bit of an extreme example of 'God told me, therefore it's right, and we must all agree!' but there is often something of the same in all sorts of prayer requests.
I think what many of us struggle with is an observed tendency of intercessions turning into an itemised, detailed shopping list full of instructions to God, which are then left to God to solve. For example an instruction to heal Mrs Franklin's lumbago so she can continue her ministry of making the teas.
I would prefer to pray for Mrs Franklin as name on the intercessions by asking God, silently, in my thoughts, what support she needs? is she getting it? what else could be provided? And does someone else need to volunteer to make the teas rather than continue to put this on the obviously unwell Mrs Franklin? Possibly followed up by a conversation with Mrs Franklin after church to ask how she is and is everything OK?
You make it sound like everybody else is so stupid they only tick off Mrs. Franklin's name on their prayer list, while you are so clever you ask her personally how she's doing and if you can help her. O so wise.
No, I don't think that, but I have seen situations where people have been treated badly because the prayers didn't "work".
The example I have used before on here before is the child I knew quite well, who died from an infection while being treated for leukaemia. She was the subject of much praying over by the prayer warriors, whose response to this child's death was to cut the mother. I still remember the mother nearly crying when I met her in passing and asked her how she was.
There seems to me to be a general awareness that prayers are not nowadays considered to have the same power as they probably were in the not so distant past. Please correct me if this is wrong. Is this, I wonder, quite a lot to do with the fact that with instant global communication about major disasters, tsunamis, the World Trade Centre tragedy, etc, where God obviously did nothing to prevent such things - and there perhaps as a result must be puzzlement about what use it was asking God to help the living, or the souls of the dead (but I do not imply that any here thought this).
Is there, I wonder, a general acceptance that the 'role' of God has altered, or that prayers must be updated somehow?
I am not aware of a past where everyone thought prayers had powerful magical powers. There have always been people of faith who have seen prayer as being in God's presence, getting to know God and to align one's will with God's, and there have equally always been people who have seen prayer as a magical weapon to get whatever you want.
And I have also observed the kind of thing Ck talks about. I was in a church where members prayed for a woman in the church who had bad depression. Because she wasn't getting better, they decided that clearly she was doing something to give the devil a foothold, and failing in her faith, because they were all praying with perfect faith (according to themselves) and so if their prayers weren't working, it must be this woman's fault.
Such attitudes persist in certain churches. But, SusanDoris, the kind of people who think this way are not likely to be on Ship of Fools. They are to be found on plenty of Facebook Bible groups though. They still exist, and do not, in my observations, show any signs of descreasing.
It wasn't the mainstream of this church, just a small but vociferous group who regularly led prayer groups and the like. The same group that leads the lay led services, which is why I tend to run miles from those services.
Off the cuff, I doubt it, Susan. The high rate of mortality in the past would surely show that God didn't act to heal a great deal of the time.
Agreed, but I think the big difference today is the instant globa awareness - although not necessarily an anywhere near comparable level of understanding!!
I am not aware of a past where everyone thought prayers had powerful magical powers. There have always been people of faith who have seen prayer as being in God's presence, getting to know God and to align one's will with God's, and there have equally always been people who have seen prayer as a magical weapon to get whatever you want.
And I have also observed the kind of thing Ck talks about. I was in a church where members prayed for a woman in the church who had bad depression. Because she wasn't getting better, they decided that clearly she was doing something to give the devil a foothold, and failing in her faith, because they were all praying with perfect faith (according to themselves) and so if their prayers weren't working, it must be this woman's fault.
That is just so bigoted and unkind.
Such attitudes persist in certain churches. But, SusanDoris, the kind of people who think this way are not likely to be on Ship of Fools.
Absolutely agree with that.
They are to be found on plenty of Facebook Bible groups though. They still exist, and do not, in my observations, show any signs of descreasing.
I'm not sure instant global awareness makes that much difference in this case.
Besides, years ago people tended to see bad things that happened as a form of divine judgement or else, at the very least as a platform to issue moral warnings to everyone else.
They didn't appear to have an American prosperity gospel style name-it-and-claim-it approach to prayer.
RE: "The name it and claim it" set. It just occurred to me that none of those "name it and claim it" preachers ever name poor people to receive riches and to be lifted out of their miserable poverty! Nope, it's always Preacher X naming a large sum of money or three houses, a boat, and a garage full of cars for him or herself. Maybe someone ought to "get on the horn" and ask God to deliver all the poor people.
You know the answer. Never do I hear a public prayer that acknowledges the fact that God cannot intervene, ever, except ineffably 'by the Spirit', yearning passively, immanently alongside us, in us for us to be His hands, feet, ears, voices and wallets.
Whilst I would agree with you here, I often pray that people may be given strength, patience or tenacity to help them cope with what they are going through. It's as though whilst I believe God isn't got to intercede in any sort of physical way, he is able to affect people's mental well-being. This may be irrational - I don't know.
We've all done it. And no He isn't. Because He doesn't. The psychological is the physical. It's all down to us.
You know the answer. Never do I hear a public prayer that acknowledges the fact that God cannot intervene, ever, except ineffably 'by the Spirit', yearning passively, immanently alongside us, in us for us to be His hands, feet, ears, voices and wallets.
Whilst I would agree with you here, I often pray that people may be given strength, patience or tenacity to help them cope with what they are going through. It's as though whilst I believe God isn't got to intercede in any sort of physical way, he is able to affect people's mental well-being. This may be irrational - I don't know.
We've all done it. And no He isn't. Because He doesn't. The psychological is the physical. It's all down to us.
I've only very recently started exploring the idea of Christianity. Your perspective may well be right, but from where I am at this stage, I like to think there is a bit of wriggle room. I'm elderly. My capacity to practically help people is quite limited now, and in future will be even more limited. The thought that prayer is redundant (other than for spurring ourselves on to great activity) is depressing. It's something that we can do even when the flesh (& in my case the finances too), are weak. I agree very much with what you say - 95% of prayer is about what we do, for sure, but I like the idea of another 5% perhaps being broader in scope than that.
If Susan you are suggesting that the complex stances of prayer held by shipmates are responses to feeling that it can influence things less then I am afraid you are very much underestimating the understanding of prayer held by previous generations. There has been very little development in the understanding of the nature of prayer in centuries and the modern age has not produced a sudden shift. What has happened is we have become more aware of how much our forebearers actually knew about prayer. Simple petitionary prayer has long been held to be the simplest prayer usually used by beginners. Prayer as a way of aligning yourself with God's will, waiting on God in silent prayer or contemplative prayer are all seen as more advanced forms. We'd have to go back millenia to find a time before these more advanced forms were unknown.
You know the answer. Never do I hear a public prayer that acknowledges the fact that God cannot intervene, ever, except ineffably 'by the Spirit', yearning passively, immanently alongside us, in us for us to be His hands, feet, ears, voices and wallets.
Whilst I would agree with you here, I often pray that people may be given strength, patience or tenacity to help them cope with what they are going through. It's as though whilst I believe God isn't got to intercede in any sort of physical way, he is able to affect people's mental well-being. This may be irrational - I don't know.
We've all done it. And no He isn't. Because He doesn't. The psychological is the physical. It's all down to us.
I've only very recently started exploring the idea of Christianity. Your perspective may well be right, but from where I am at this stage, I like to think there is a bit of wriggle room. I'm elderly. My capacity to practically help people is quite limited now, and in future will be even more limited. The thought that prayer is redundant (other than for spurring ourselves on to great activity) is depressing. It's something that we can do even when the flesh (& in my case the finances too), are weak. I agree very much with what you say - 95% of prayer is about what we do, for sure, but I like the idea of another 5% perhaps being broader in scope than that.
Seriously @caroline444, people like me need people like you to carry on believing what you do, despite people like us! For me there is no wriggle room at all, lying hypocrite that I am: there being no rationalists in foxholes.
RE: "The name it and claim it" set. It just occurred to me that none of those "name it and claim it" preachers ever name poor people to receive riches and to be lifted out of their miserable poverty! Nope, it's always Preacher X naming a large sum of money or three houses, a boat, and a garage full of cars for him or herself. Maybe someone ought to "get on the horn" and ask God to deliver all the poor people.
I defiantly do not agree with prosperity Gospel. In fact I hate it. However I think you are miss representing them a little here. Many say that they will do that to give you chance to believe for yourself and you cam do the same. Also some believe in prosperity Gospel so they can give to others.
I've been in Christian service for 30 odd years now, and the one thing we could never do without is prayer. Petitionary prayer. Whether that's for psychological stuff (strength, wisdom, etc.) or for the crassest physical needs (O God, help me find a nurse to put a catheter into this guy STAT).
I don't give a damn what the philosophical arguments are against it, petitionary prayer is a good thing. And every missionary I know gloms on to people who pray with both hands and both feet. (You should see the little envious sparks that light up in their eyes when one of them mentions a person who prays faithfully for them. It's actually rather hilarious.)
So if you are elderly or disabled or housebound or whatever it may be that debars you from what we foolishly call more active forms of service, prayer is NOT second best. Sometimes I wonder if it's the only best.
And if you'd like to pray for me and mine, we'd be grateful.
You know the answer. Never do I hear a public prayer that acknowledges the fact that God cannot intervene, ever, except ineffably 'by the Spirit', yearning passively, immanently alongside us, in us for us to be His hands, feet, ears, voices and wallets.
Whilst I would agree with you here, I often pray that people may be given strength, patience or tenacity to help them cope with what they are going through. It's as though whilst I believe God isn't got to intercede in any sort of physical way, he is able to affect people's mental well-being. This may be irrational - I don't know.
We've all done it. And no He isn't. Because He doesn't. The psychological is the physical. It's all down to us.
And yet Jesus taught to petition God for things. “Give us today our daily bread.” If it were as simple as you are making it out we wouldn’t be having these conversations. Restricting an all powerful God by saying it is all down to us is illogical. It cannot happen he is all powerful. So there must be another reason. What that is may vary, we cannot know for sure.
I have only heard of the type of thing some people are reporting here. God not answering your petition prayer how you want has not lead to anyone being told that it is their fault in my experience. We cannot know the mind of God. If we assume he wants the best for us then no or wait may be appropriate answers. Petition prayer is only part of the whole. If prayer is defined as communicating or talking with God then there is a deeper relationship than just asking. That is however part of it.
You know the answer. Never do I hear a public prayer that acknowledges the fact that God cannot intervene, ever, except ineffably 'by the Spirit', yearning passively, immanently alongside us, in us for us to be His hands, feet, ears, voices and wallets.
Whilst I would agree with you here, I often pray that people may be given strength, patience or tenacity to help them cope with what they are going through. It's as though whilst I believe God isn't got to intercede in any sort of physical way, he is able to affect people's mental well-being. This may be irrational - I don't know.
We've all done it. And no He isn't. Because He doesn't. The psychological is the physical. It's all down to us.
I've only very recently started exploring the idea of Christianity.
Could you please say briefly what you mean by this? Are you exploring from another faith belief, or from non-belief for instance?
Your perspective may well be right, but from where I am at this stage, I like to think there is a bit of wriggle room. I'm elderly. My capacity to practically help people is quite limited now, and in future will be even more limited. The thought that prayer is redundant (other than for spurring ourselves on to great activity) is depressing. It's something that we can do even when the flesh (& in my case the finances too), are weak. I agree very much with what you say - 95% of prayer is about what we do, for sure, but I like the idea of another % perhaps being broader in scope than that.
I think the difference between prayer and thinking is that thoughts labelled prayer involve an externaly existing God, whereas similar thoughts and wishes for others and self can be similarly and strongly expressed without it.
If Susan you are suggesting that the complex stances of prayer held by shipmates are responses to feeling that it can influence things less then I am afraid you are very much underestimating the understanding of prayer held by previous generations. There has been very little development in the understanding of the nature of prayer in centuries and the modern age has not produced a sudden shift. What has happened is we have become more aware of how much our forebearers actually knew about prayer. Simple petitionary prayer has long been held to be the simplest prayer usually used by beginners. Prayer as a way of aligning yourself with God's will, waiting on God in silent prayer or contemplative prayer are all seen as more advanced forms. We'd have to go back millenia to find a time before these more advanced forms were unknown.
I think I understand you, but whatever the understanding of prayer was or has been, I do not think there would have been a time when it was not associated with the idea of an external force or power of some sort which could b enlisted in some way.
I don't think I have ever considered before the idea that prayer can be sort of on a scale from simple to more sophisticated! This could be assessed, I suppose, from the vocabulary used. However, to align oneself with 'God's will' raises a few more questions of course. As far as I can see, this, i.e. God's will, can only be discerned by observing (via the senses) what others have considered it to be throughout human existence and then deciding for oneself what is the most likely best interpretation.
Which is called tradition, small t or Tradition, Capital T, of course.
Any impression we may have of God's will is going to be based on what we've been exposed to through reading scripture, hearing sermons, discussion, debate and a million and one things we do or come across through our interaction with other people, both within our own faith traditions and beyond.
It's interesting that those here who are squeamish about direct petitionary prayer retain an idea of God as an 'external force'.
At any rate, I'm not sure that sophistication / lack of sophistication is what Jengie Jon is driving at. Our Lord encouraged us to approach the Kingdom of God 'like a little child.'
Children are very direct. They can also be very wise and insightful.
I think Jengie's point is that when it comes to prayer it's not a case of linear, progressive development as one might see with technology or scientific discovery.
A medieval monk who believed the world was flat could probably nevertheless teach us a thing or two about prayer.
Not necessarily to either. Firstly it depends on what you mean by vocabulary. In a deep human relationship you don’t need to use lots of words the same can go for God.
People also claim you discern God not only with the senses but with your spirit. A kind of sixth sense, if you like to put it that way, sensing the presence of God that goes beyond the 5 senses
Very occasionally you will meet someone who is prayerful and spends so much time in prayer, encountering God that it radiates from them. Then there will be others who are on that journey. Amazing people to encounter. Encounters with those people strongly suggest an external God to pray to: they have a different aspect to those who meditate.
@SusanDoris I am getting the impression from this thread that you started it in the hope of convincing others of your belief in the lack of efficacy of prayer as, as you have stated previously, there is no evidence of miracles being performed. However there is a lot of research demonstrating the benefits of a religion on people's well-being: I would suggest to you that those benefits are an outworking of regular prayer.
On Hugal's observations about Prosperity Gospellers - well yes, theirs is a position I detest but they are human beings and therefore as capable of good, mixed or impure motives as everyone else. They also have the capacity to change their minds and one hopes they can and will do so before too many people get hurt.
It can be insidious and I have encountered milder forms of it among Anglican charismatics as well as out on the fringes of charismaticdom.
On the thing of discerning things with our spirits, as it were, a kind of sixth sense. I can see what Hugal means but am uncomfortable with the vocabulary. That doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with him.
It's hard to find words for these things, 'nous'?
Food for thought and another thread on that particular issue, perhaps?
Very occasionally you will meet someone who is prayerful and spends so much time in prayer, encountering God that it radiates from them. Then there will be others who are on that journey. Amazing people to encounter. Encounters with those people strongly suggest an external God to pray to: they have a different aspect to those who meditate.
But I think the only way you would actually know whether they are how they are because of prayer etc if they chose to use words to inform.
@SusanDoris I am getting the impression from this thread that you started it in the hope of convincing others of your belief in the lack of efficacy of prayer as, as you have stated previously, there is no evidence of miracles being performed.
Actually, definitely no! One of the reasons I put it in DH was that I thought it was a subject for discussion in general rather than with any end in mind. I didn't think it would change any minds, and I hope I have kept away from anything too direct ... ... well, it seems to have been an an interesting exchange of views so far.
However there is a lot of research demonstrating the benefits of a religion on people's well-being: I would suggest to you that those benefits are an outworking of regular prayer.
I have to be a little sceptical about whether it is religions themselves which are beneficial, or the general altruism and psychology involved, but not here.
Not necessarily to either. Firstly it depends on what you mean by vocabulary. In a deep human relationship you don’t need to use lots of words the same can go for God.
People also claim you discern God not only with the senses but with your spirit. A kind of sixth sense, if you like to put it that way, sensing the presence of God that goes beyond the 5 senses
Yeah, if that exists, that's what I think I don't have.
SusanDoris, you were suggesting that as people's global awareness increases, as has happened over time with TV and internet, they are less likely to believe that God will fix all suffering. In my experience, the people who believe that if they pray hard enough, God will fix something the way they want it are often people who are desperate because a loved one is seriously ill or dying. They feel so helpless and so desperate to be able to do something, and it is a comfort to believe that if they pray hard enough, God will definitely heal the person. If the person gets better, that confirms this belief for them, and if they don't, that is when they often start to question this very black-and-white belief.
In my observations, people find it all too easy to dismiss what is happening in other countries, or to people they are not close to, because they have no emotional involvement - easy to explain it away by suggesting another country is godless, or another person doesn't have enough faith, or the right sort of faith. And not just in religion either - it's human nature to have more emotional investment in the people you're close to.
So I don't think what people overall have believed about prayer has changed, as people have always had loved ones ill and dying - and probably more so in the past when there wasn't the research and medical care people can get now, and when it was much more common for younger people to die. From what I observe in literature through the centuries is an idea of God's ways being mysterious, which has often been said when people die. People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this.
The way I see it is God is a mystery, and this is a world where suffering happens, often caused by people. And our life here simply does end in death - whether we die at 20 or 90, we are going to die. Whether there is an afterlife is another matter, but this human body we have will die. And God doesn't intervene to stop all suffering. That would be a very controlling thing to do - it would involve forcefully controlling a lot of people's behaviours. I do believe that God is involved though and does intervene in little ways in response to our prayers - not to make our lives perfect, or to remove all suffering, but to quietly remind us of his love and presence within all the suffering. Which to me is the main purpose of prayer - to draw closer to God, to know his love, to be more in step with him.
When I first started keeping a prayer journal, at age 15, my prayers consisted of 'Dear God, please help me with my maths homework, and help me get it finished by tomorrow.' The more I prayed, the more I became aware that this was a conversation with the divine, with a God who loved me, which was more exciting, more huge, more amazing than simply getting my maths homework done. Obviously if you don't believe in God, you are not going to see it that way, and it's going to sound like I was talking to an imaginary friend, but my experience, however you like to interpret it, has been a deep awareness of God, and of being with him, communicating with him. I believe he is there (as in present, rather than a specific place), and that he knows my prayers before I express them, but my expressing them makes me also there, also focussed on God, so I am also with him as he is with me, as a two-way relationship.
Not necessarily to either. Firstly it depends on what you mean by vocabulary. In a deep human relationship you don’t need to use lots of words the same can go for God.
People also claim you discern God not only with the senses but with your spirit. A kind of sixth sense, if you like to put it that way, sensing the presence of God that goes beyond the 5 senses
Yeah, if that exists, that's what I think I don't have.
It has seemed to me, from hearing different people's experiences of their faith, that some people have this and some people don't, which suggests to me that it isn't something fundamental to our faith, but more a case of us all being different and expressing our faith in different ways. I do have it, I think - I discern God in quite a different way from my senses or my emotions or my intellect (though they may be involved, as I'm still a sensing, feeling, thinking human). But not everyone experiences this, and also some non-religious people experience it, though for them what they say they are experiencing is not God.
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
No, I spent years in Charismatic circles where this "sixth sense" was given a lot of prominence. If it was down to that, I'd have it in spades. In reality, the failure of the Charismatic promise of sensing the presence of God was one of the reasons I abandoned it.
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
I don't agree. I know Christians who are strongly moral people, very practical and down-to-earth, very good and kind and focused on following Christ's teaching, who simply don't experience this, despite other Christians in their church or community experiencing it. I do find the people who speak out about not experiencing it are the ones who are not afraid to be honest and open, and are secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it - because it can be used against people, to suggest they aren't good/strong enough Christians. I also suspect, from my observations in some churches, that some people fake it, or convince themselves that their emotions are a spiritual awareness, because they don't want to be seen as spiritually inferior. There can be a lot of pressure about such things.
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
I don't agree. I know Christians who are strongly moral people, very practical and down-to-earth, very good and kind and focused on following Christ's teaching, who simply don't experience this, despite other Christians in their church or community experiencing it. I do find the people who speak out about not experiencing it are the ones who are not afraid to be honest and open, and are secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it - because it can be used against people, to suggest they aren't good/strong enough Christians. I also suspect, from my observations in some churches, that some people fake it, or convince themselves that their emotions are a spiritual awareness, because they don't want to be seen as spiritually inferior. There can be a lot of pressure about such things.
Your last two sentences describe me when I was in a Charismatic setting. You are afraid of admitting it's just not happening because quite apart from anything else you know all the non-Charismatic Evangelical Churches aren't the real deal like you are. So there's nowhere to go. Perhaps there's less of that now, but back in my day (80s) any liturgical church was referred to as "high and dead". Non-Charismatic Evangelicals were strongly suspected of being "nominal Christians". I was amazed to learn that in the early days of the Charismatic movement the Evangelicals were their implacable foes; they'd fused into a single thing by the time I got into it. But I digress.
I did wonder where all the "real Christians" had been prior to the 70s Charismatic Revival, but people kept on referring to odd pockets of weird phenomena to prove the Holy Spirit had been active all this time - "active" being defined as speaking in tongues, "words" of whatever and miracles, or at least the claim of them. And "experiencing God". Lying on the floor with a beatific smile on your face appeared to be an approved way of doing so.
I wouldn't however describe myself as "secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it" - rather just not prepared to pretend.
I wouldn't however describe myself as "secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it" - rather just not prepared to pretend.
Makes sense. I also think some people find pretending more difficult/unnatural/pointless than others do. I would find it very hard to pretend in this sort of way or to find value in it - seems a bit pointless, logically, to pretend to God if God knows our hearts anyway. And I'm not much good at pretending to myself either - myself knows me too well and won't humour such nonsense!
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
I don't agree. I know Christians who are strongly moral people, very practical and down-to-earth, very good and kind and focused on following Christ's teaching, who simply don't experience this, despite other Christians in their church or community experiencing it. I do find the people who speak out about not experiencing it are the ones who are not afraid to be honest and open, and are secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it - because it can be used against people, to suggest they aren't good/strong enough Christians. I also suspect, from my observations in some churches, that some people fake it, or convince themselves that their emotions are a spiritual awareness, because they don't want to be seen as spiritually inferior. There can be a lot of pressure about such things.
I never said that people who don’t have the “Sixth Sense,” I really didn’t want to use that phrase but could not think of another, are not strong Christians. I was very careful in picking my words. I said that some denominations or sections of denominations do not encourage it and that is a reason not the reason. Just one reason among several. I am open and honest about it. It is not as though it happens every week. There are times when it is just as you pointed out. Getting on with the job of being a Christian. I have also experienced the opposite. Some members of none charismatic churches wouldn’t br seem with some of my church because of this. They did not believe it happened and anyone who did was deluded st best.
Your experience is your experience and I am sorry you didn’t want to stay in that Church.
My experiences are mine and seem at odds with a lot of experiences on here. The Church is a complicated place
Reading through these latest posts, I think there is an important word missing, and that is interpretation, i.e. interpretation of thoughts and experiences, and I wonder how much there is some agreemnent on that.
SusanDoris, you were suggesting that as people's global awareness increases, as has happened over time with TV and internet, they are less likely to believe that God will fix all suffering.
No, not so much that but an increasing awareness, not necessarily a thought-through awareness, but a sort of background awareness, that answers to many questions, problems and requests are now available without a need for God.
In my experience, the people who believe that if they pray hard enough, God will fix something the way they want it are often people who are desperate because a loved one is seriously ill or dying. They feel so helpless and so desperate to be able to do something, and it is a comfort to believe that if they pray hard enough, God will definitely heal the person. If the person gets better, that confirms this belief for them, and if they don't, that is when they often start to question this very black-and-white belief.
Yes, there is no doubt that for many people such prayers and feelings are a comfort.
I am coming towards the end of a book called ‘Queen Victoria’s Matchmaking’ and the time period is around the 1900s when anarchy was very much on the rise in Russia. Olla (married to Sergei, a grand Duke and uncle of Tsar Nicholas II)whose husband, Sergei , was bombed to bits, turned to her adopted religion, Russian Orthodox, and founded, using her fortune, a monastery and dedicated her life to looking after the poor and needy in Moscow. Yes, that’s a tangent, but her religious belief was a great comfort to her.
People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this.
I think this is one of the places where ‘interpretation’ is important. I do not understand ‘God’s ways’ for obvious reasons.
I do believe that God is involved though and does intervene in little ways in response to our prayers - not to make our lives perfect, or to remove all suffering, but to quietly remind us of his love and presence within all the suffering. Which to me is the main purpose of prayer - to draw closer to God, to know his love, to be more in step with him.
ISTM that whatever we think we are asking God in prayer, we are actually asking Him to give us Himself - even if we're not aware of this at the time. And this asking God to pour out Himself to us is to our benefit and that of the whole world. Jesus gives us the example of asking a friend for bread - but the bread is needed because the "you" of the story have been visited by someone late at night and have nothing to give them. The story is one of seeing need in others, being unable to satisfy it out of your own resources, and asking God to supply....something: the Holy Spirit. In the same way, if someone asks for prayer, we can always says yes and simply pray "Come, Holy Spirit"; that doesn't require any evaluation on our part of whether the petition is "worthy" or "holy" or anything.
And if prayer is about God giving Himself to us, then perhaps it is not something we do to God, but something we make space to allow God to do to us? He may be working His purpose even as we think we're asking Him to do stuff for us.
And then Jesus seemed to wait for people to ask for what they wanted, even when it must have been dead obvious (e.g. asking Bartimaeus what he wanted).
Reading through these latest posts, I think there is an important word missing, and that is interpretation, i.e. interpretation of thoughts and experiences, and I wonder how much there is some agreemnent on that.
SusanDoris, you were suggesting that as people's global awareness increases, as has happened over time with TV and internet, they are less likely to believe that God will fix all suffering.
No, not so much that but an increasing awareness, not necessarily a thought-through awareness, but a sort of background awareness, that answers to many questions, problems and requests are now available without a need for God.
In my experience, the people who believe that if they pray hard enough, God will fix something the way they want it are often people who are desperate because a loved one is seriously ill or dying. They feel so helpless and so desperate to be able to do something, and it is a comfort to believe that if they pray hard enough, God will definitely heal the person. If the person gets better, that confirms this belief for them, and if they don't, that is when they often start to question this very black-and-white belief.
Yes, there is no doubt that for many people such prayers and feelings are a comfort.
I am coming towards the end of a book called ‘Queen Victoria’s Matchmaking’ and the time period is around the 1900s when anarchy was very much on the rise in Russia. Olla (married to Sergei, a grand Duke and uncle of Tsar Nicholas II)whose husband, Sergei , was bombed to bits, turned to her adopted religion, Russian Orthodox, and founded, using her fortune, a monastery and dedicated her life to looking after the poor and needy in Moscow. Yes, that’s a tangent, but her religious belief was a great comfort to her.
People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this.
I think this is one of the places where ‘interpretation’ is important. I do not understand ‘God’s ways’ for obvious reasons.
I do believe that God is involved though and does intervene in little ways in response to our prayers - not to make our lives perfect, or to remove all suffering, but to quietly remind us of his love and presence within all the suffering. Which to me is the main purpose of prayer - to draw closer to God, to know his love, to be more in step with him.
Very interesting, as always. Thank you.
Interpretation is the reason why words of knowledge etc are tested. Are often given with the possibility they may be just the prayers interpretation, what they are thinking. There will always be an element of belief. Even science cannot be absolutely sure of everything, particularly origins. Belief is will always be a factor. Looked at objectively feeling the presence of God could be just a feeling. What you believe will influence how you interpret it. You SusanDoris would not interpret it as God. I would. In the end neither of us can prove beyond doubt we are right.
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
No, I spent years in Charismatic circles where this "sixth sense" was given a lot of prominence. If it was down to that, I'd have it in spades. In reality, the failure of the Charismatic promise of sensing the presence of God was one of the reasons I abandoned it.
In retrospect, I think I was lucky to have had quite a coo, middle-of the-road, CofE backgroundd where anything more exaggerated didn't appear.
Reading through these latest posts, I think there is an important word missing, and that is interpretation, i.e. interpretation of thoughts and experiences, and I wonder how much there is some agreemnent on that.
SusanDoris, you were suggesting that as people's global awareness increases, as has happened over time with TV and internet, they are less likely to believe that God will fix all suffering.
No, not so much that but an increasing awareness, not necessarily a thought-through awareness, but a sort of background awareness, that answers to many questions, problems and requests are now available without a need for God.
In my experience, the people who believe that if they pray hard enough, God will fix something the way they want it are often people who are desperate because a loved one is seriously ill or dying. They feel so helpless and so desperate to be able to do something, and it is a comfort to believe that if they pray hard enough, God will definitely heal the person. If the person gets better, that confirms this belief for them, and if they don't, that is when they often start to question this very black-and-white belief.
Yes, there is no doubt that for many people such prayers and feelings are a comfort.
I am coming towards the end of a book called ‘Queen Victoria’s Matchmaking’ and the time period is around the 1900s when anarchy was very much on the rise in Russia. Olla (married to Sergei, a grand Duke and uncle of Tsar Nicholas II)whose husband, Sergei , was bombed to bits, turned to her adopted religion, Russian Orthodox, and founded, using her fortune, a monastery and dedicated her life to looking after the poor and needy in Moscow. Yes, that’s a tangent, but her religious belief was a great comfort to her.
People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this.
I think this is one of the places where ‘interpretation’ is important. I do not understand ‘God’s ways’ for obvious reasons.
I do believe that God is involved though and does intervene in little ways in response to our prayers - not to make our lives perfect, or to remove all suffering, but to quietly remind us of his love and presence within all the suffering. Which to me is the main purpose of prayer - to draw closer to God, to know his love, to be more in step with him.
Very interesting, as always. Thank you.
Interpretation is the reason why words of knowledge etc are tested. Are often given with the possibility they may be just the prayers interpretation, what they are thinking. There will always be an element of belief. Even science cannot be absolutely sure of everything, particularly origins. Belief is will always be a factor. Looked at objectively feeling the presence of God could be just a feeling. What you believe will influence how you interpret it. You SusanDoris would not interpret it as God. I would. In the end neither of us can prove beyond doubt we are right.
Agree of course, although I'd like to mention that I think science has the edge bearing in mind it has some things well evidenced, although it has to stop short of 100%!!
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
I don't agree. I know Christians who are strongly moral people, very practical and down-to-earth, very good and kind and focused on following Christ's teaching, who simply don't experience this, despite other Christians in their church or community experiencing it. I do find the people who speak out about not experiencing it are the ones who are not afraid to be honest and open, and are secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it - because it can be used against people, to suggest they aren't good/strong enough Christians. I also suspect, from my observations in some churches, that some people fake it, or convince themselves that their emotions are a spiritual awareness, because they don't want to be seen as spiritually inferior. There can be a lot of pressure about such things.
I never said that people who don’t have the “Sixth Sense,” I really didn’t want to use that phrase but could not think of another, are not strong Christians. I was very careful in picking my words. I said that some denominations or sections of denominations do not encourage it and that is a reason not the reason. Just one reason among several. I am open and honest about it. It is not as though it happens every week. There are times when it is just as you pointed out. Getting on with the job of being a Christian. I have also experienced the opposite. Some members of none charismatic churches wouldn’t br seem with some of my church because of this. They did not believe it happened and anyone who did was deluded st best.
Your experience is your experience and I am sorry you didn’t want to stay in that Church.
My experiences are mine and seem at odds with a lot of experiences on here. The Church is a complicated place
To clarify, I did read your wording and I'm aware you didn't call it a sixth sense, but an understanding that goes beyond our senses. I was responding to your words. I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. Is it possible this was intended for a different person? It was KarlLB, not me, who spoke of a sixth sense and leaving a church.
Reading through these latest posts, I think there is an important word missing, and that is interpretation, i.e. interpretation of thoughts and experiences, and I wonder how much there is some agreemnent on that.
SusanDoris, you were suggesting that as people's global awareness increases, as has happened over time with TV and internet, they are less likely to believe that God will fix all suffering.
No, not so much that but an increasing awareness, not necessarily a thought-through awareness, but a sort of background awareness, that answers to many questions, problems and requests are now available without a need for God.
In my experience, the people who believe that if they pray hard enough, God will fix something the way they want it are often people who are desperate because a loved one is seriously ill or dying. They feel so helpless and so desperate to be able to do something, and it is a comfort to believe that if they pray hard enough, God will definitely heal the person. If the person gets better, that confirms this belief for them, and if they don't, that is when they often start to question this very black-and-white belief.
Yes, there is no doubt that for many people such prayers and feelings are a comfort.
I am coming towards the end of a book called ‘Queen Victoria’s Matchmaking’ and the time period is around the 1900s when anarchy was very much on the rise in Russia. Olla (married to Sergei, a grand Duke and uncle of Tsar Nicholas II)whose husband, Sergei , was bombed to bits, turned to her adopted religion, Russian Orthodox, and founded, using her fortune, a monastery and dedicated her life to looking after the poor and needy in Moscow. Yes, that’s a tangent, but her religious belief was a great comfort to her.
People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this.
I think this is one of the places where ‘interpretation’ is important. I do not understand ‘God’s ways’ for obvious reasons.
I do believe that God is involved though and does intervene in little ways in response to our prayers - not to make our lives perfect, or to remove all suffering, but to quietly remind us of his love and presence within all the suffering. Which to me is the main purpose of prayer - to draw closer to God, to know his love, to be more in step with him.
Very interesting, as always. Thank you.
Hi, SusanDoris, yes, I'm aware it is interpretation. But all experience is interpretation, so we don't say it each time - I'm interpreting myself as feeling happy, I'm interpreting what I see as blue, etc. As someone who believes in God, and has told you this, I'm not going to say each time 'my interpretation of life is that God exists,' because that's a given. When I said 'People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this,' it was in the context of people who believe in God. I wasn't talking about you.
The purpose of my post was to explain what makes people question a simplistic/controlling view that God will do whatever they ask, and why this attitude hasn't decreased (in my observations) due to people being more aware of widespread suffering and cruelty in the world.
Awareness of scientific explanations for various things is another issue entirely, which you have discussed in many threads, but it was not the point you had made in this thread, so I wasn't responding to that. I will quote what you said, to remind you, to show what I was responding to - it was further up the page. Perhaps if you reread my post in the light of this, it will make more sense.
There seems to me to be a general awareness that prayers are not nowadays considered to have the same power as they probably were in the not so distant past. Please correct me if this is wrong. Is this, I wonder, quite a lot to do with the fact that with instant global communication about major disasters, tsunamis, the World Trade Centre tragedy, etc, where God obviously did nothing to prevent such things - and there perhaps as a result must be puzzlement about what use it was asking God to help the living, or the souls of the dead (but I do not imply that any here thought this).
thank you and yes, of course, the interpretation is almost always a given. Are there, however, particular times when the question of interpretation sort of really gets in the way, I wonder?
That’s a bit of a vague question, SusanDoris, and I’m not quite sure what sort of thing you’re talking about. In the way in communication, do you mean, where different people have different assumptions?
Some denominations and section of denominations don’t encourage that kind of thing some do. That could be a reason for the differences. I believe we as human beings have a level of understanding that goes beyond our senses. All people Christian or not. God can work in this area as much as any other.
I don't agree. I know Christians who are strongly moral people, very practical and down-to-earth, very good and kind and focused on following Christ's teaching, who simply don't experience this, despite other Christians in their church or community experiencing it. I do find the people who speak out about not experiencing it are the ones who are not afraid to be honest and open, and are secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it - because it can be used against people, to suggest they aren't good/strong enough Christians. I also suspect, from my observations in some churches, that some people fake it, or convince themselves that their emotions are a spiritual awareness, because they don't want to be seen as spiritually inferior. There can be a lot of pressure about such things.
I never said that people who don’t have the “Sixth Sense,” I really didn’t want to use that phrase but could not think of another, are not strong Christians. I was very careful in picking my words. I said that some denominations or sections of denominations do not encourage it and that is a reason not the reason. Just one reason among several. I am open and honest about it. It is not as though it happens every week. There are times when it is just as you pointed out. Getting on with the job of being a Christian. I have also experienced the opposite. Some members of none charismatic churches wouldn’t br seem with some of my church because of this. They did not believe it happened and anyone who did was deluded st best.
Your experience is your experience and I am sorry you didn’t want to stay in that Church.
My experiences are mine and seem at odds with a lot of experiences on here. The Church is a complicated place
To clarify, I did read your wording and I'm aware you didn't call it a sixth sense, but an understanding that goes beyond our senses. I was responding to your words. I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. Is it possible this was intended for a different person? It was KarlLB, not me, who spoke of a sixth sense and leaving a church.
By starting with the words Disagree with you, you seemed to be saying I said only those who seem to have the Sixth Sense are moral and good Christians. I did not. You went on to say that those who say that they din’t are brave. I was pointing out that I did not say that only those who seem to have it are the only good and moral Christians and that those who do use it are also being brave and have also had a hard time for saying they sense God.
Hope that clears it up.
Comments
I'd been wondering why I find set prayers in church so soothing, in spite of the fact I don't believe we can petition God for concrete interventions as such. Your description of how these prayers affect you went a long way to explain why I find satisfaction in these prayers too.
That makes me hopeful.
Whilst I would agree with you here, I often pray that people may be given strength, patience or tenacity to help them cope with what they are going through. It's as though whilst I believe God isn't got to intercede in any sort of physical way, he is able to affect people's mental well-being. This may be irrational - I don't know.
I once was asked by someone to pray that her disabled brother, who shared a house with their elderly mother, would realise it was the right thing to move house, and stop selfishly wanting to remain in that house when it was clearly best for the mother to move, and the mother's needs were more important than his. This prayer request demanded that I agree with this woman's perception of the situation and what was the right thing to do and whose needs were more important, and I simply couldn't do this. Besides, I didn't know anything about the situation other than what she told me. I told her it sounded like it was very important to her to control the situation and to get God to agree with her, and maybe it would be less stressful for her to entrust the situation to God, and that this was how I would pray.
It is hard when people are convinced they know what God's will is, and they expect you to trust they are right and are offended if you question. This same woman was running a Facebook Bible group and had given one member a leadership role in some Bible study thing, and then later decided she didn't feel right about this, and that God was clearly telling her this person shouldn't have this role. So she told the person that it was no longer God's will for her to be doing it, and was incredibly offended that this person questioned - she saw it that this person was questioning God's will. I tried to explain to her that this person had no way of knowing for certain that God has told someone something, just because that person claims it, and she simply couldn't get her head round this. This is a bit of an extreme example of 'God told me, therefore it's right, and we must all agree!' but there is often something of the same in all sorts of prayer requests.
You make it sound like everybody else is so stupid they only tick off Mrs. Franklin's name on their prayer list, while you are so clever you ask her personally how she's doing and if you can help her. O so wise.
The example I have used before on here before is the child I knew quite well, who died from an infection while being treated for leukaemia. She was the subject of much praying over by the prayer warriors, whose response to this child's death was to cut the mother. I still remember the mother nearly crying when I met her in passing and asked her how she was.
I didn't read her post as implying she was wiser or more spiritual than anyone else.
Is there, I wonder, a general acceptance that the 'role' of God has altered, or that prayers must be updated somehow?
And I have also observed the kind of thing Ck talks about. I was in a church where members prayed for a woman in the church who had bad depression. Because she wasn't getting better, they decided that clearly she was doing something to give the devil a foothold, and failing in her faith, because they were all praying with perfect faith (according to themselves) and so if their prayers weren't working, it must be this woman's fault.
Such attitudes persist in certain churches. But, SusanDoris, the kind of people who think this way are not likely to be on Ship of Fools. They are to be found on plenty of Facebook Bible groups though. They still exist, and do not, in my observations, show any signs of descreasing.
Besides, years ago people tended to see bad things that happened as a form of divine judgement or else, at the very least as a platform to issue moral warnings to everyone else.
They didn't appear to have an American prosperity gospel style name-it-and-claim-it approach to prayer.
We've all done it. And no He isn't. Because He doesn't. The psychological is the physical. It's all down to us.
I've only very recently started exploring the idea of Christianity. Your perspective may well be right, but from where I am at this stage, I like to think there is a bit of wriggle room. I'm elderly. My capacity to practically help people is quite limited now, and in future will be even more limited. The thought that prayer is redundant (other than for spurring ourselves on to great activity) is depressing. It's something that we can do even when the flesh (& in my case the finances too), are weak. I agree very much with what you say - 95% of prayer is about what we do, for sure, but I like the idea of another 5% perhaps being broader in scope than that.
Seriously @caroline444, people like me need people like you to carry on believing what you do, despite people like us! For me there is no wriggle room at all, lying hypocrite that I am: there being no rationalists in foxholes.
Aye. Up.
I defiantly do not agree with prosperity Gospel. In fact I hate it. However I think you are miss representing them a little here. Many say that they will do that to give you chance to believe for yourself and you cam do the same. Also some believe in prosperity Gospel so they can give to others.
I don't give a damn what the philosophical arguments are against it, petitionary prayer is a good thing. And every missionary I know gloms on to people who pray with both hands and both feet. (You should see the little envious sparks that light up in their eyes when one of them mentions a person who prays faithfully for them. It's actually rather hilarious.)
So if you are elderly or disabled or housebound or whatever it may be that debars you from what we foolishly call more active forms of service, prayer is NOT second best. Sometimes I wonder if it's the only best.
And if you'd like to pray for me and mine, we'd be grateful.
And yet Jesus taught to petition God for things. “Give us today our daily bread.” If it were as simple as you are making it out we wouldn’t be having these conversations. Restricting an all powerful God by saying it is all down to us is illogical. It cannot happen he is all powerful. So there must be another reason. What that is may vary, we cannot know for sure.
I have only heard of the type of thing some people are reporting here. God not answering your petition prayer how you want has not lead to anyone being told that it is their fault in my experience. We cannot know the mind of God. If we assume he wants the best for us then no or wait may be appropriate answers. Petition prayer is only part of the whole. If prayer is defined as communicating or talking with God then there is a deeper relationship than just asking. That is however part of it.
I don't think I have ever considered before the idea that prayer can be sort of on a scale from simple to more sophisticated! This could be assessed, I suppose, from the vocabulary used. However, to align oneself with 'God's will' raises a few more questions of course. As far as I can see, this, i.e. God's will, can only be discerned by observing (via the senses) what others have considered it to be throughout human existence and then deciding for oneself what is the most likely best interpretation.
Any impression we may have of God's will is going to be based on what we've been exposed to through reading scripture, hearing sermons, discussion, debate and a million and one things we do or come across through our interaction with other people, both within our own faith traditions and beyond.
It's interesting that those here who are squeamish about direct petitionary prayer retain an idea of God as an 'external force'.
At any rate, I'm not sure that sophistication / lack of sophistication is what Jengie Jon is driving at. Our Lord encouraged us to approach the Kingdom of God 'like a little child.'
Children are very direct. They can also be very wise and insightful.
I think Jengie's point is that when it comes to prayer it's not a case of linear, progressive development as one might see with technology or scientific discovery.
A medieval monk who believed the world was flat could probably nevertheless teach us a thing or two about prayer.
People also claim you discern God not only with the senses but with your spirit. A kind of sixth sense, if you like to put it that way, sensing the presence of God that goes beyond the 5 senses
@SusanDoris I am getting the impression from this thread that you started it in the hope of convincing others of your belief in the lack of efficacy of prayer as, as you have stated previously, there is no evidence of miracles being performed. However there is a lot of research demonstrating the benefits of a religion on people's well-being: I would suggest to you that those benefits are an outworking of regular prayer.
On Hugal's observations about Prosperity Gospellers - well yes, theirs is a position I detest but they are human beings and therefore as capable of good, mixed or impure motives as everyone else. They also have the capacity to change their minds and one hopes they can and will do so before too many people get hurt.
It can be insidious and I have encountered milder forms of it among Anglican charismatics as well as out on the fringes of charismaticdom.
On the thing of discerning things with our spirits, as it were, a kind of sixth sense. I can see what Hugal means but am uncomfortable with the vocabulary. That doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with him.
It's hard to find words for these things, 'nous'?
Food for thought and another thread on that particular issue, perhaps?
Yeah, if that exists, that's what I think I don't have.
In my observations, people find it all too easy to dismiss what is happening in other countries, or to people they are not close to, because they have no emotional involvement - easy to explain it away by suggesting another country is godless, or another person doesn't have enough faith, or the right sort of faith. And not just in religion either - it's human nature to have more emotional investment in the people you're close to.
So I don't think what people overall have believed about prayer has changed, as people have always had loved ones ill and dying - and probably more so in the past when there wasn't the research and medical care people can get now, and when it was much more common for younger people to die. From what I observe in literature through the centuries is an idea of God's ways being mysterious, which has often been said when people die. People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this.
The way I see it is God is a mystery, and this is a world where suffering happens, often caused by people. And our life here simply does end in death - whether we die at 20 or 90, we are going to die. Whether there is an afterlife is another matter, but this human body we have will die. And God doesn't intervene to stop all suffering. That would be a very controlling thing to do - it would involve forcefully controlling a lot of people's behaviours. I do believe that God is involved though and does intervene in little ways in response to our prayers - not to make our lives perfect, or to remove all suffering, but to quietly remind us of his love and presence within all the suffering. Which to me is the main purpose of prayer - to draw closer to God, to know his love, to be more in step with him.
When I first started keeping a prayer journal, at age 15, my prayers consisted of 'Dear God, please help me with my maths homework, and help me get it finished by tomorrow.' The more I prayed, the more I became aware that this was a conversation with the divine, with a God who loved me, which was more exciting, more huge, more amazing than simply getting my maths homework done. Obviously if you don't believe in God, you are not going to see it that way, and it's going to sound like I was talking to an imaginary friend, but my experience, however you like to interpret it, has been a deep awareness of God, and of being with him, communicating with him. I believe he is there (as in present, rather than a specific place), and that he knows my prayers before I express them, but my expressing them makes me also there, also focussed on God, so I am also with him as he is with me, as a two-way relationship.
It has seemed to me, from hearing different people's experiences of their faith, that some people have this and some people don't, which suggests to me that it isn't something fundamental to our faith, but more a case of us all being different and expressing our faith in different ways. I do have it, I think - I discern God in quite a different way from my senses or my emotions or my intellect (though they may be involved, as I'm still a sensing, feeling, thinking human). But not everyone experiences this, and also some non-religious people experience it, though for them what they say they are experiencing is not God.
No, I spent years in Charismatic circles where this "sixth sense" was given a lot of prominence. If it was down to that, I'd have it in spades. In reality, the failure of the Charismatic promise of sensing the presence of God was one of the reasons I abandoned it.
I don't agree. I know Christians who are strongly moral people, very practical and down-to-earth, very good and kind and focused on following Christ's teaching, who simply don't experience this, despite other Christians in their church or community experiencing it. I do find the people who speak out about not experiencing it are the ones who are not afraid to be honest and open, and are secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it - because it can be used against people, to suggest they aren't good/strong enough Christians. I also suspect, from my observations in some churches, that some people fake it, or convince themselves that their emotions are a spiritual awareness, because they don't want to be seen as spiritually inferior. There can be a lot of pressure about such things.
Your last two sentences describe me when I was in a Charismatic setting. You are afraid of admitting it's just not happening because quite apart from anything else you know all the non-Charismatic Evangelical Churches aren't the real deal like you are. So there's nowhere to go. Perhaps there's less of that now, but back in my day (80s) any liturgical church was referred to as "high and dead". Non-Charismatic Evangelicals were strongly suspected of being "nominal Christians". I was amazed to learn that in the early days of the Charismatic movement the Evangelicals were their implacable foes; they'd fused into a single thing by the time I got into it. But I digress.
I did wonder where all the "real Christians" had been prior to the 70s Charismatic Revival, but people kept on referring to odd pockets of weird phenomena to prove the Holy Spirit had been active all this time - "active" being defined as speaking in tongues, "words" of whatever and miracles, or at least the claim of them. And "experiencing God". Lying on the floor with a beatific smile on your face appeared to be an approved way of doing so.
I wouldn't however describe myself as "secure enough in themselves and their faith to be able to admit it" - rather just not prepared to pretend.
Makes sense. I also think some people find pretending more difficult/unnatural/pointless than others do. I would find it very hard to pretend in this sort of way or to find value in it - seems a bit pointless, logically, to pretend to God if God knows our hearts anyway. And I'm not much good at pretending to myself either - myself knows me too well and won't humour such nonsense!
I never said that people who don’t have the “Sixth Sense,” I really didn’t want to use that phrase but could not think of another, are not strong Christians. I was very careful in picking my words. I said that some denominations or sections of denominations do not encourage it and that is a reason not the reason. Just one reason among several. I am open and honest about it. It is not as though it happens every week. There are times when it is just as you pointed out. Getting on with the job of being a Christian. I have also experienced the opposite. Some members of none charismatic churches wouldn’t br seem with some of my church because of this. They did not believe it happened and anyone who did was deluded st best.
Your experience is your experience and I am sorry you didn’t want to stay in that Church.
My experiences are mine and seem at odds with a lot of experiences on here. The Church is a complicated place
I am coming towards the end of a book called ‘Queen Victoria’s Matchmaking’ and the time period is around the 1900s when anarchy was very much on the rise in Russia. Olla (married to Sergei, a grand Duke and uncle of Tsar Nicholas II)whose husband, Sergei , was bombed to bits, turned to her adopted religion, Russian Orthodox, and founded, using her fortune, a monastery and dedicated her life to looking after the poor and needy in Moscow. Yes, that’s a tangent, but her religious belief was a great comfort to her. I think this is one of the places where ‘interpretation’ is important. I do not understand ‘God’s ways’ for obvious reasons.
Very interesting, as always. Thank you.
And if prayer is about God giving Himself to us, then perhaps it is not something we do to God, but something we make space to allow God to do to us? He may be working His purpose even as we think we're asking Him to do stuff for us.
And then Jesus seemed to wait for people to ask for what they wanted, even when it must have been dead obvious (e.g. asking Bartimaeus what he wanted).
Interpretation is the reason why words of knowledge etc are tested. Are often given with the possibility they may be just the prayers interpretation, what they are thinking. There will always be an element of belief. Even science cannot be absolutely sure of everything, particularly origins. Belief is will always be a factor. Looked at objectively feeling the presence of God could be just a feeling. What you believe will influence how you interpret it. You SusanDoris would not interpret it as God. I would. In the end neither of us can prove beyond doubt we are right.
To clarify, I did read your wording and I'm aware you didn't call it a sixth sense, but an understanding that goes beyond our senses. I was responding to your words. I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about. Is it possible this was intended for a different person? It was KarlLB, not me, who spoke of a sixth sense and leaving a church.
Hi, SusanDoris, yes, I'm aware it is interpretation. But all experience is interpretation, so we don't say it each time - I'm interpreting myself as feeling happy, I'm interpreting what I see as blue, etc. As someone who believes in God, and has told you this, I'm not going to say each time 'my interpretation of life is that God exists,' because that's a given. When I said 'People don't fully understand God's ways and they are aware of this,' it was in the context of people who believe in God. I wasn't talking about you.
The purpose of my post was to explain what makes people question a simplistic/controlling view that God will do whatever they ask, and why this attitude hasn't decreased (in my observations) due to people being more aware of widespread suffering and cruelty in the world.
Awareness of scientific explanations for various things is another issue entirely, which you have discussed in many threads, but it was not the point you had made in this thread, so I wasn't responding to that. I will quote what you said, to remind you, to show what I was responding to - it was further up the page. Perhaps if you reread my post in the light of this, it will make more sense.
thank you and yes, of course, the interpretation is almost always a given. Are there, however, particular times when the question of interpretation sort of really gets in the way, I wonder?
By starting with the words Disagree with you, you seemed to be saying I said only those who seem to have the Sixth Sense are moral and good Christians. I did not. You went on to say that those who say that they din’t are brave. I was pointing out that I did not say that only those who seem to have it are the only good and moral Christians and that those who do use it are also being brave and have also had a hard time for saying they sense God.
Hope that clears it up.