Ongoing confusion here. I messaged my brother to say that we needed to talk. I got a message in response which ignored the suggestion of actually talking. My mother then told my brother he needed to talk to me. That produced a further message to me from my brother that it is my mother's "express wish to be alone on her birthday."
Mum says she is baffled. She can't think of anything she might have said to my brother to make him think she wouldn't want to be with her adored grandchildren on her birthday / anniversary of Dad's death. She says that all she can recall saying to my brother was that it would be a bittersweet family gathering.
I had assumed that Mum was saying one thing to my brother and a different thing to me, but that is seeming less likely.
Plus, she has had family with her on the previous anniversaries.
That sounds very difficult @North East Quine . Things between my sister and me aren't great but we don't and hopefully never will get to this point.
I'm flying to Chicago to be with my lover who has been very ill over the last couple of months. We have made our peace with what may happen, though being a retired teacher I don't think my mother will die until her granddaughters have finished their exams. One is doing a levels and the other GCSEs. They finish after I get home.
It sounds to me as though your brother has got his own emotional stuff going on, which he isn't going to want to unpack with you, if he even realises that there is any kind of issue or difficulty. I may be way off the mark, but that's just how it sounds to me. (My own tricky relationships with my parents and siblings are possibly improving a bit as I get older and mellower about past hurts, however I suspect that at times during my adult life, my behaviour towards family members has been closer to that of your brother's apparent arse-hole-ness than to your own graciousness.)
2 thoughts which strike me from your most recent post.
1) Is your mum willing to contact your brother, ideally while you are with her in person, stressing that she is looking forward to seeing her grandchildren on her birthday and that she very much wants to see them even though it's obviously bittersweet? Thinking of a phone call or voicemail message to your brother, which you hear being made (and with your brother being told that you're there), which suggests maybe there's been some confusion at some point in family communications, but your mum definitely does want to see her grandchildren as planned on her birthday.
2) Apologies if I've missed something which answers this point already. Are your brother's statements about what your mum wants affecting anybody other than you? Is he telling the grandchildren they shouldn't be seeing your mum on her birthday? If your brother is only saying this to you, would your best option be trying not to get drawn into a debate about it, e.g. standard response of, "Mum's told me she does want to see the grandchildren as planned on her birthday and is really looking forward to it," then no further discussion. Obviously, the bigger pain is if he's making these comments to the grandchildren and trying to get them to change the plan. If that if the case, maybe the grandchildren also need a one line response, "Grandma's said she does want to see us and is looking forward to it," etc.
Are your brother's statements about what your mum wants affecting anybody other than you?
Yes. My brother messaged to say that he had spoken to my (adult) nephew, his son, and that his son now sees that the lunch is "ill-advised" and won't be attending. My nephew himself has not contacted his baffled cousins, or my mother, or me. But it's no longer "all the grandchildren", my mother is telling me that she is upset about that, and my daughter can't understand why her cousin, with whom she regards herself as having a warm cousinly relationship, has left it to his father to send a cold message that he won't be coming.
My brother and his family are going to take my mother out for a birthday lunch at a more appropriate time "probably within the next fortnight."
It sounds to me as though your brother has got his own emotional stuff going on, which he isn't going to want to unpack with you, if he even realises that there is any kind of issue or difficulty.
That comment made me realise that I have my own "stuff" going on. As a child / adolescent I often didn't "get" social nuance, unspoken rules etc etc. As soon as I got to university I found my tribe and left that socially awkward me behind. But being told that my mother has "clearly expressed wishes" which I have somehow failed to register, by someone who was a big part of my life in the awkward years, and I'm flipping straight back into panicky adolescent mode - what have I failed to understand? why have I failed to understand it? Why have "clearly expressed views" somehow gone right over my head?
I do think your brother is running this. He feels your mother ought to be spending the day in sackcloth and ashes. He has taken on himself to refuse on his son's behalf - who was probably quite ready to go.
I don't suppose there's any chance of direct grandmother to grandson communication? 'I'll really miss you - sure you won't change your mind?' Silly me, of course not. That's not how these things work. Bafflement, misunderstandings and hurt feelings much better.
Has your brother or your nephew told your mum that your nephew is now not planning to attend? And what has your mum said in response?
From your posts on this thread, like Firenze, I think your brother has got his fixed ideas which he's imposing on everybody else. You started with the charitable view that maybe there was misunderstanding because your mum was saying different things to you and your brother to try to keep both of you happy. However, you've now discussed this really explicitly with your mum, and she's clear she hasn't been giving your brother the messages he's saying he's heard. And, as you're trying to get everybody to a mutual understanding of your mum's genuine wishes, your brother is digging his heels in and coming across as being more and more illogical and intractable.
If at all possible, I very much think your mum rather than you now needs to be leading on the responses to your brother and nephew. Your brother's ongoing 'trump card' in the discussions is that he is advocating your mum's true wishes. If possible, the best way to gently point out that that's not true is for her to say so to your brother and/or nephew.
The lunch was lovely. Mum made a wee speech at the end, which I videoed on my phone, thanking everyone for coming. I've got several nice photos of Mum with the family members who were there. Mum was dressed in blue, Dad's favourite colour. Dad was certainly not far from our thoughts.
I'm still baffled as to what it was all about, but at the end of the day, my brother chose to opt-out, and to encourage his son to opt-out as well, so they have been the ones who have missed out.
I had a full house yesterday, with eight people for coffee at my house, four of whom were staying the night. They are all heading home now and I am tackling the resultant laundry mountain, with three beds to strip.
I am going back to Mum's tomorrow, to accompany her to a friend's birthday celebration.
Brothers and sisters- a strange / strained relationship in my family too, as my son and daughter have not spoken for six months now. Both their father and I have special birthdays this year. Their Dad is having a big lunch for family and friends in a hotel, big enough for the two families to keep well apart. I’m thinking of having a separate meal with each of them at the weekend, and inviting friends to an open house on the actual day. They’ ve got a few months to sort themselves out, but I don’t intend to get involved. I don’t really understand what it is about anyway.
Yes, it is not just what will need doing after I die, but when I become too frail or confused. Hopefully a long time ahead yet.
IANAL (although I work for some); have you got a Power of Attorney in place? That would make sure someone was able to look after your finances if you couldn't.
It's tricky, Piglet. I was a lawyer for many years until my retirement. The law here (and at least it used be in the other States, England and Wales, and New Zealand) is that a power of attorney becomes inoperative if the person making the power becomes incapable of revoking it. That used create all sorts of problems as the power was almost certainly created to deal with things on the incapacity. The remedy back then was a quick application to our Supreme Court for the appointment of a manager of the affairs, normally the attorney under power. The judge who normally dealt with these matters thought that something had to be done, but contrary to the usual pattern for such things, he did something. He conferred with the small group of us regularly involved in such matters, a proposal was put together and the judge went off to the Attorney-General with a proposal for legislative amendment. The result was a simple piece of legislation to set out a procedure to be followed enabling the power to continue. I don't now remember if that was followed in other Australian jurisdictions or elsewhere.
I still don't know what my brother's issue was, but my brother and sister-in-law could not have been kinder when they heard that my husband had had a TIA. We got lovely messages from them, and they sent a card through the post.
Yes, it is not just what will need doing after I die, but when I become too frail or confused. Hopefully a long time ahead yet.
IANAL (although I work for some); have you got a Power of Attorney in place? That would make sure someone was able to look after your finances if you couldn't.
It's tricky, Piglet. I was a lawyer for many years until my retirement. The law here (and at least it used be in the other States, England and Wales, and New Zealand) is that a power of attorney becomes inoperative if the person making the power becomes incapable of revoking it. That used create all sorts of problems as the power was almost certainly created to deal with things on the incapacity. The remedy back then was a quick application to our Supreme Court for the appointment of a manager of the affairs, normally the attorney under power. The judge who normally dealt with these matters thought that something had to be done, but contrary to the usual pattern for such things, he did something. He conferred with the small group of us regularly involved in such matters, a proposal was put together and the judge went off to the Attorney-General with a proposal for legislative amendment. The result was a simple piece of legislation to set out a procedure to be followed enabling the power to continue. I don't now remember if that was followed in other Australian jurisdictions or elsewhere.
In the English and Welsh jurisdiction it’s specifically what is known as an Enduring Power of Attorney, and there is a process for triggering it if the grantor of the power becomes incapacitated.
Yes, it is not just what will need doing after I die, but when I become too frail or confused. Hopefully a long time ahead yet.
IANAL (although I work for some); have you got a Power of Attorney in place? That would make sure someone was able to look after your finances if you couldn't.
It's tricky, Piglet. I was a lawyer for many years until my retirement. The law here (and at least it used be in the other States, England and Wales, and New Zealand) is that a power of attorney becomes inoperative if the person making the power becomes incapable of revoking it. That used create all sorts of problems as the power was almost certainly created to deal with things on the incapacity. The remedy back then was a quick application to our Supreme Court for the appointment of a manager of the affairs, normally the attorney under power. The judge who normally dealt with these matters thought that something had to be done, but contrary to the usual pattern for such things, he did something. He conferred with the small group of us regularly involved in such matters, a proposal was put together and the judge went off to the Attorney-General with a proposal for legislative amendment. The result was a simple piece of legislation to set out a procedure to be followed enabling the power to continue. I don't now remember if that was followed in other Australian jurisdictions or elsewhere.
In the English and Welsh jurisdiction it’s specifically what is known as an Enduring Power of Attorney, and there is a process for triggering it if the grantor of the power becomes incapacitated.
I think it's similar in Scotland; you have a combined Continuing (financial) and Welfare POA. The financial powers can take effect whenever the grantor wishes, but the Welfare powers only come into play if you're deemed by a medical practitioner to have lost capacity.
It is important to know that, in England at least, should your first appointed Attorney become unavailable, you should notify the Office of the Public Guardian. Only then can any reserve Attorneys act, even if named on the original application. We found this out when trying to enact my Mum's - I couldn’t take over without proving that my father had died. Mum's LPOA naming me as Attorney turned up 2 weeks after she died - thankfully she was of sound mind until near the end and we didn't need it.
In England, the LPA can be used, by consent, if the donor is of sound mind, but not physically capable eg of going to the bank or using a computer/ phone.
@Gee D this is a question for you as we're in the same country. My Dad never really lost mental capacity, but was physically unable to do his banking and pay bills. He left it too late to transition to an electronic life so I was able to do things as I had enduring power of Attorney. However, I wonder whether he could just have made me a signatory on his bank account and we not activated the POA. I'm asking also for future reference for myself, though I recognise that I would consult a solicitor in my own state. But I do wonder ...
Speaking only of NSW, yes, you could have attended to those matters being a signatory on his account. Given that, I'd say it is better that you proceeded as you did. Let's say that some question arises, you could point to your power as the basis of your actions. I don't know if you have any siblings, but family relationships are known to change (an understatement) where money is concerned.
Thanks for that @Gee D indeed relationships can change and not just family. Everyone who knows a family will have an opinion. Some will think they are entitled to share it and others will make a mental note and move on, recognising that it's not their business.
I had often wondered whether there is a process to cover a temporary situation that might arise that can easily be undone. I might be thinking about it in the wrong mindset but the very name enduring power of attorney makes me think it's meant for long term situations or those of decline that won't be recovered from, rather than a temporary health blip.
Cheery G - my sister and I set up the paperwork for a (UK) Lasting Power of Attorney with my father about a year ago, after our mother had died and when it looked like he was 'slowing down a bit'. I have only now brought it to the attention of his bank - not because I need to act for him, but because it is possible that I might and I have the paperwork in hand. But I still do not intend to do anything on his behalf, until he either asks me, or a situation arises where I feel I have to. So - if he went into hospital for a few weeks, and I had to pay his bills, I could (from his account) and when he came out, the situation would revert to how things had been previously. Holding the paperwork (in the UK) in no way means that anyone needs to act on it, and if such a need arose which was temporary, the paperwork would still be in place to act at some unknown date in the future, were it to become necessary again.
One thing we hoped to avoid, was my Dad becoming confused enough that applying for these powers would no longer be possible. In this sense, in the UK one *must* apply for them, before their use is necessary. I and my sister were lucky in that several of Dad's trusted contemporaries made that point to him, in relation to their own arrangements with their own children.
Thanks for that @Gee D indeed relationships can change and not just family. Everyone who knows a family will have an opinion. Some will think they are entitled to share it and others will make a mental note and move on, recognising that it's not their business.
I had often wondered whether there is a process to cover a temporary situation that might arise that can easily be undone. I might be thinking about it in the wrong mindset but the very name enduring power of attorney makes me think it's meant for long term situations or those of decline that won't be recovered from, rather than a temporary health blip.
These are always difficult situations. Your assessment is partially correct. The enduring power was enacted to allow for continuation. Until the legislation was enacted, a power of attorney became ineffective once the person granting the power it ceased to have the mental ability to revoke it. The primary reason many people appointed an attorney was to have someone look after their affairs if they themselves became incapable. The enduring power gets around that problem. It endures despite the lack of capacity to revoke. That does not mean that the person granting the power (the donor of the power) cannot revoke or amend it at any time, as long as they have the mental capacity.
That may help you with part what's bothering you. It's an area where I had quite a bit of experience, and I'd find myself briefed to obtain urgent orders late in the week where there was to be an auction of a house the coming weekend. Some of the children wanted the sale to proceed, others wanted to stop it. Someone, often one of the children, had been appointed as attorney under power with the specific aim of dealing with the situation. At this late stage, the lawyer acting on the sale realised the problem. Often a day or 2 before the auction, I'd be appearing before the Protective Judge, one of the Equity judges wearing a different hat (or wig), to get the appointment of the attorney as manager of the affairs of the owner to enable the sale to proceed. The judge normally sitting as Protective Judge saw that legislative reform was necessary, and spoke with the Attorney-General. Continuing powers was the result. A word of warning - there may well have been change in the years since I retired, and you'd do best to seek advice from someone in practice.
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Thanks @Gee D and @mark_in_manchester. I'm no longer needing to work within the POA system as both Mum and Dad are gone now. I am just thinking back and wondering whether there was any other option other than using the POA to do Dad's banking.
Once Dad was recovered enough and mostly his "old" self, I used to get him to also sign the withdrawal form for his bank account. I think the bank staff thought this a bit strange, but I thought he'd had his life upended by his heart condition and needing to be on home oxygen, and that anything that made him feel more normal and in control of things, was keeping him happy and he could see that everything was fine with his bank account as I'd give him the balance print out when I got home.
I wanted the last year of his life to be as happy and normal as possible and even though he couldn't get out much, he had a few things that he was managing with minimal help and I thought it was a case of doing whatever works!!
Yes when my mother stopped driving, but was still otherwise capable, my brother used to call in about once a week and go through her bills with her and then pay them by phone banking while he was there, so that she could listen to what he was doing.
My mother wanted to add me as a joint account-holder for this purpose, but the bank couldn't/wouldn't as it had previously been a joint account with my dad before he died. They said that money laundering rules stopped a joint account being daisy-chained in this way. Obviously banks and jurisdictions (we're in England) may vary in this, I don’t know. I also used to help Mum to use her online banking account, and thankfully she never needed to hand over the reins completely.
The money laundering regulations belong in the hottest of the nether regions. They are officious nonsense designed to deflect attention from the lack of real effort to combat actual criminal activity. Meanwhile ordinary life becomes impossible for a far too many people.
This past week there was an opinion piece in my local paper about on exercising a power of attorney. My question is, how to respond to a person who second guesses what he did regarding his friend's wishes.
My mother wanted to add me as a joint account-holder for this purpose, but the bank couldn't/wouldn't as it had previously been a joint account with my dad before he died. They said that money laundering rules stopped a joint account being daisy-chained in this way. Obviously banks and jurisdictions (we're in England) may vary in this, I don’t know. I also used to help Mum to use her online banking account, and thankfully she never needed to hand over the reins completely.
My mother wanted to add me as a joint account-holder for this purpose, but the bank couldn't/wouldn't as it had previously been a joint account with my dad before he died. They said that money laundering rules stopped a joint account being daisy-chained in this way. Obviously banks and jurisdictions (we're in England) may vary in this, I don’t know. I also used to help Mum to use her online banking account, and thankfully she never needed to hand over the reins completely.
I'm booting this up for the New Year so it doesn't sink into Oblivion. I hope everyone's Aged P's are doing OK. It is very odd to now be the Aged P myself since my mother died in 2023 and my mother-in-law in 2022.
My mother (92) hosted five of us over the New Year. She doesn't like me trying to help ("interfering" "getting under her feet" etc) but fortunately is charmed by my daughter and son in law taking charge of her kitchen. She has always thought her grandchildren could do no wrong. Any time the kitchen was empty, she was straight back in there "just heating up a few sausage rolls / a pizza / vol-au-vents"
There was far too much food, and she's sent us home with left-overs.
Not my aged parents, but a close friend ( who is not close to her children) is going to spend the next three months abroad, for warmer weather. Last year I helped her get Pension Credit and she is thrilled at the extra help it gets her. I felt I had to tell her today that she is only allowed to be out of the UK for four weeks, and that there is every likelihood that Passport Control will inform DWP/ Pension Service, which would lead to having to repay PC and potentially be investigated for Benefit fraud. She knew about the four weeks but was just going to ‘risk it’.
Fortunately she took it well and has informed the Pension Service. I am relieved.
My aging Mum is lively and relatively fit, I’m glad to say. She’s always looked far younger than her years and still does.
She’s unconfident in her cooking skills, so now doesn’t cater for family gatherings, and her memory isn’t what it was (neither is mine!)
I just hope I’m as fit as her if I reach her age.
My Dad is OK-ish, but losing his memory pretty heavily now. I wonder if anyone here had a long-distance aging parent that had a full-ish life, and had to weigh up friends and independence vs proximity and ease-of-help? We're a way off any big changes (absent sudden health issues, which are always possible) but I need, I think, to start thinking about all this, and talking it over with my sister (also a long way away). Sis and I both work, and would provide a poor substitute for Dad's current life, sometimes lonely though he finds it. But a day might come.
We had this dilemma in 2012 when I moved from being a 15 minute drive from my mum to moving about an hour away. My brother who had also moved that year thought we should persuade mum to mum nearer one of us. I wasn't keen, because although I could see she wasn't as capable as she had been I thought moving her away from everything she was familiar with would hasten her decline. When six years later things really started to unravel I began to wish I'd pushed mum to move to the retirement village near my brother. As it was I ended up moving mum to a care home near me. I hoped she could still live a semi-independent life there but it soon became obvious she'd been hiding a lot from me and she really needed 24/7 care.
Mum had vascular dementia so her memory was fairy OK until 2017/18, what was really noticeable was that, in my husband's memorable phrase 'her logic boxes had fried'.
If you haven't already done so make sure you have Power of Attorney sorted, it makes things a lot easier if you need to start taking over things for your dad.
Thinking of my Dad, as we approach his first heavenly birthday. I am grateful for all the help, support and advice this thread has given, and it’s a bittersweet thought that I no longer need it. Hopefully I will remember to pop in on the thread and support my fellow Shipmates.
We had this dilemma in 2012 when I moved from being a 15 minute drive from my mum to moving about an hour away. My brother who had also moved that year thought we should persuade mum to mum nearer one of us. I wasn't keen, because although I could see she wasn't as capable as she had been I thought moving her away from everything she was familiar with would hasten her decline.
If you and your brother each decided to move, why should your mother have to leave an environment which is familiar to her, and with which she is apparently happy to continue living?
My Dad is OK-ish, but losing his memory pretty heavily now. I wonder if anyone here had a long-distance aging parent that had a full-ish life, and had to weigh up friends and independence vs proximity and ease-of-help? We're a way off any big changes (absent sudden health issues, which are always possible) but I need, I think, to start thinking about all this, and talking it over with my sister (also a long way away). Sis and I both work, and would provide a poor substitute for Dad's current life, sometimes lonely though he finds it. But a day might come.
It partly depends how old your Dad is. But essentially, there is a large psychological cost to uprooting. The loss of social network and support, and of familiar activities and places. If his memory is already going it might cause more deterioration and faster deterioration.
I live a five hour journey from my elderly parents and my sister is 2.5hrs away but less able to take time off work. We alternate going up once every two months, so one or other of us is there every month. We video call every Sunday. We’ve arranged a key safe, and ensured local services have the code. They have fall alarms and my Dad wears an alert bracelet that looks much like a watch that contains his personal details including that he is my mother’s carer - emergency contact is his next door neighbour. My mum is entered in the Herbert protocol website
They have a small care package we’d like them to increase. Plus a cleaner who also does the ironing, who usually comes once a week.
Dad has lpa for health and finance for my mum, by I and my sister are named on the document to replace if he loses capacity - and we have have lpas for him, but they are not activated at this time because he has not lost capacity.
If LPAs do not exist, these have to be done before someone loses capacity to donate there power of attorney - if they already have the process for someone without capacity is deputyship. Or at least this is the process in England and Wales, not sure on the system in Scotland - but there will be an equivalent.
Dad gets practical and emotional support from his neighbours, his friends and his church and a very familiar routine. As mum’s mobility has got worse they have had alterations done wear they live, they have a stairlift, a level access shower with shower stool paid for by the NHS, and internal railings in the hall.
I am hoping they will never have to move, if it was really needed it would be possible to put an overhead hoist in.
We had this dilemma in 2012 when I moved from being a 15 minute drive from my mum to moving about an hour away. My brother who had also moved that year thought we should persuade mum to mum nearer one of us. I wasn't keen, because although I could see she wasn't as capable as she had been I thought moving her away from everything she was familiar with would hasten her decline.
If you and your brother each decided to move, why should your mother have to leave an environment which is familiar to her, and with which she is apparently happy to continue living?
Hi @Gee D , I don't think you read my post properly, or indeed my previous post where I spoke of my mother dying in 2023. I think we all want the best for our parents, but sometimes, as was the case with my mum, they become unable to live independently and difficult decisions have to be made.
Depending on what you envisage. If you think he will need to move at some stage, then moving earlier rather than later. The earlier he moves, the better chance he has of developing a new social network. If you envisage putting in care and support where he is to the end and only moving if essential, then leave where he is. If you do, then you need to have someone local who will act as a local power of attorney with respect to health. Even if your father is in a care home, if he is admitted to hospital, he will go in alone without anyone with him. Really difficult if dementia is part of his health problems. Elderly parents do hide how bad things are. The reasons are complex and differ in each case. It normally is not malicious.
My sister and I left my parents where they were, which is what my Dad wanted. Mum would have preferred to be nearer my sisters. My sister was not in favour of this. Dad was definitely the one who kept his mind the longest, while Mum was the more physically able. Together they functioned as a unit for far longer than either of them would have functioned alone. My sister was not on the doorstep, but not far away either, and I could get there within a reasonable time. With my father's parents, my parents tried to get them to move right close to where we lived, which would have made their care easy while respecting their independence. We thought of a ground-floor flat three doors away. They refused. They struggled on until Grandpa died, and Gran tried to keep going, but in the end decided to live with my parents. She might have managed in the flat, who knows. It would have meant a different retirement for my parents.
Thanks for your thoughts, folks. Dad is 83, and my Sis and I have LPAs for him which I am now 'firing up' as he becomes less able to handle banking etc. I knew he was less himself when he was prepared to sign the paperwork. He does OK on Iceland microwave meals for now, and I know he's really not himself as he buys the luxury ones. 'Don't know why women make such a fuss about cooking' - OK, Dad. The Indian meals have a hotness-rating marked on the packet by a number of red chilli symbols. 'I didn't much like that one with 3 carrots'.
He's 5 hours drive away, and I go every 5 or 6 weeks - and he is still able to get 2 trains to my Sis (as he's done it for a long time, before his memory really went downhill) once a month or so. She'd be happier to see him if he was less keen at resolving his 'missing female company' at their church. Since I (and he) are anonymous here, I can offer a smile at the thought of a man with no memory who cannot move without farting being out on the pull. It's quite a thing (and makes him vulnerable, but there is FA I can do about that).
He knows a good few people and goes to activities for a few hours most days, and while he can eat and is not sat cold at home - well, OK then. He's never visited anyone in a care home and I doubt anyone would want to visit him in one either, so if we end up there then somewhere close to me would probably be worth considering (I am less likely to move house than my sis). A friend in a similar position had his FIL collapse having driven himself to see them, and he never went home, going into care locally - a least-bad outcome in a very sh*t situation. He doesn't know where he is, which is perhaps not such a bad thing.
I am hoping they will never have to move, if it was really needed it would be possible to put an overhead hoist in.
Hope this is of help.
I like the idea of a gantry - I have most of the steel I might need behind the shed, but any carers might be alarmed at the LOLER implications . Thanks for your help (and @Jengie Jon and @Sarasa ), it is much appreciated.
@mark_in_manchester I forgot to add, the other thing I my sister and our parents did a few years ago - with everyone involved’s consent - was all join up to the free version of the lifecircle tracker app. So if Dad does take his mobile home with him we know roughly where he is.
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Mum says she is baffled. She can't think of anything she might have said to my brother to make him think she wouldn't want to be with her adored grandchildren on her birthday / anniversary of Dad's death. She says that all she can recall saying to my brother was that it would be a bittersweet family gathering.
I had assumed that Mum was saying one thing to my brother and a different thing to me, but that is seeming less likely.
Plus, she has had family with her on the previous anniversaries.
It's all very odd.
I'm flying to Chicago to be with my lover who has been very ill over the last couple of months. We have made our peace with what may happen, though being a retired teacher I don't think my mother will die until her granddaughters have finished their exams. One is doing a levels and the other GCSEs. They finish after I get home.
It sounds to me as though your brother has got his own emotional stuff going on, which he isn't going to want to unpack with you, if he even realises that there is any kind of issue or difficulty. I may be way off the mark, but that's just how it sounds to me. (My own tricky relationships with my parents and siblings are possibly improving a bit as I get older and mellower about past hurts, however I suspect that at times during my adult life, my behaviour towards family members has been closer to that of your brother's apparent arse-hole-ness than to your own graciousness.)
2 thoughts which strike me from your most recent post.
1) Is your mum willing to contact your brother, ideally while you are with her in person, stressing that she is looking forward to seeing her grandchildren on her birthday and that she very much wants to see them even though it's obviously bittersweet? Thinking of a phone call or voicemail message to your brother, which you hear being made (and with your brother being told that you're there), which suggests maybe there's been some confusion at some point in family communications, but your mum definitely does want to see her grandchildren as planned on her birthday.
2) Apologies if I've missed something which answers this point already. Are your brother's statements about what your mum wants affecting anybody other than you? Is he telling the grandchildren they shouldn't be seeing your mum on her birthday? If your brother is only saying this to you, would your best option be trying not to get drawn into a debate about it, e.g. standard response of, "Mum's told me she does want to see the grandchildren as planned on her birthday and is really looking forward to it," then no further discussion. Obviously, the bigger pain is if he's making these comments to the grandchildren and trying to get them to change the plan. If that if the case, maybe the grandchildren also need a one line response, "Grandma's said she does want to see us and is looking forward to it," etc.
Are your brother's statements about what your mum wants affecting anybody other than you?
Yes. My brother messaged to say that he had spoken to my (adult) nephew, his son, and that his son now sees that the lunch is "ill-advised" and won't be attending. My nephew himself has not contacted his baffled cousins, or my mother, or me. But it's no longer "all the grandchildren", my mother is telling me that she is upset about that, and my daughter can't understand why her cousin, with whom she regards herself as having a warm cousinly relationship, has left it to his father to send a cold message that he won't be coming.
My brother and his family are going to take my mother out for a birthday lunch at a more appropriate time "probably within the next fortnight."
It sounds to me as though your brother has got his own emotional stuff going on, which he isn't going to want to unpack with you, if he even realises that there is any kind of issue or difficulty.
That comment made me realise that I have my own "stuff" going on. As a child / adolescent I often didn't "get" social nuance, unspoken rules etc etc. As soon as I got to university I found my tribe and left that socially awkward me behind. But being told that my mother has "clearly expressed wishes" which I have somehow failed to register, by someone who was a big part of my life in the awkward years, and I'm flipping straight back into panicky adolescent mode - what have I failed to understand? why have I failed to understand it? Why have "clearly expressed views" somehow gone right over my head?
I don't suppose there's any chance of direct grandmother to grandson communication? 'I'll really miss you - sure you won't change your mind?' Silly me, of course not. That's not how these things work. Bafflement, misunderstandings and hurt feelings much better.
From your posts on this thread, like Firenze, I think your brother has got his fixed ideas which he's imposing on everybody else. You started with the charitable view that maybe there was misunderstanding because your mum was saying different things to you and your brother to try to keep both of you happy. However, you've now discussed this really explicitly with your mum, and she's clear she hasn't been giving your brother the messages he's saying he's heard. And, as you're trying to get everybody to a mutual understanding of your mum's genuine wishes, your brother is digging his heels in and coming across as being more and more illogical and intractable.
If at all possible, I very much think your mum rather than you now needs to be leading on the responses to your brother and nephew. Your brother's ongoing 'trump card' in the discussions is that he is advocating your mum's true wishes. If possible, the best way to gently point out that that's not true is for her to say so to your brother and/or nephew.
I'm still baffled as to what it was all about, but at the end of the day, my brother chose to opt-out, and to encourage his son to opt-out as well, so they have been the ones who have missed out.
I had a full house yesterday, with eight people for coffee at my house, four of whom were staying the night. They are all heading home now and I am tackling the resultant laundry mountain, with three beds to strip.
I am going back to Mum's tomorrow, to accompany her to a friend's birthday celebration.
Many happy returns to North East Mum! 🙂
It's tricky, Piglet. I was a lawyer for many years until my retirement. The law here (and at least it used be in the other States, England and Wales, and New Zealand) is that a power of attorney becomes inoperative if the person making the power becomes incapable of revoking it. That used create all sorts of problems as the power was almost certainly created to deal with things on the incapacity. The remedy back then was a quick application to our Supreme Court for the appointment of a manager of the affairs, normally the attorney under power. The judge who normally dealt with these matters thought that something had to be done, but contrary to the usual pattern for such things, he did something. He conferred with the small group of us regularly involved in such matters, a proposal was put together and the judge went off to the Attorney-General with a proposal for legislative amendment. The result was a simple piece of legislation to set out a procedure to be followed enabling the power to continue. I don't now remember if that was followed in other Australian jurisdictions or elsewhere.
I think it's similar in Scotland; you have a combined Continuing (financial) and Welfare POA. The financial powers can take effect whenever the grantor wishes, but the Welfare powers only come into play if you're deemed by a medical practitioner to have lost capacity.
Or so I hope.
I had often wondered whether there is a process to cover a temporary situation that might arise that can easily be undone. I might be thinking about it in the wrong mindset but the very name enduring power of attorney makes me think it's meant for long term situations or those of decline that won't be recovered from, rather than a temporary health blip.
One thing we hoped to avoid, was my Dad becoming confused enough that applying for these powers would no longer be possible. In this sense, in the UK one *must* apply for them, before their use is necessary. I and my sister were lucky in that several of Dad's trusted contemporaries made that point to him, in relation to their own arrangements with their own children.
These are always difficult situations. Your assessment is partially correct. The enduring power was enacted to allow for continuation. Until the legislation was enacted, a power of attorney became ineffective once the person granting the power it ceased to have the mental ability to revoke it. The primary reason many people appointed an attorney was to have someone look after their affairs if they themselves became incapable. The enduring power gets around that problem. It endures despite the lack of capacity to revoke. That does not mean that the person granting the power (the donor of the power) cannot revoke or amend it at any time, as long as they have the mental capacity.
That may help you with part what's bothering you. It's an area where I had quite a bit of experience, and I'd find myself briefed to obtain urgent orders late in the week where there was to be an auction of a house the coming weekend. Some of the children wanted the sale to proceed, others wanted to stop it. Someone, often one of the children, had been appointed as attorney under power with the specific aim of dealing with the situation. At this late stage, the lawyer acting on the sale realised the problem. Often a day or 2 before the auction, I'd be appearing before the Protective Judge, one of the Equity judges wearing a different hat (or wig), to get the appointment of the attorney as manager of the affairs of the owner to enable the sale to proceed. The judge normally sitting as Protective Judge saw that legislative reform was necessary, and spoke with the Attorney-General. Continuing powers was the result. A word of warning - there may well have been change in the years since I retired, and you'd do best to seek advice from someone in practice.
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Once Dad was recovered enough and mostly his "old" self, I used to get him to also sign the withdrawal form for his bank account. I think the bank staff thought this a bit strange, but I thought he'd had his life upended by his heart condition and needing to be on home oxygen, and that anything that made him feel more normal and in control of things, was keeping him happy and he could see that everything was fine with his bank account as I'd give him the balance print out when I got home.
I wanted the last year of his life to be as happy and normal as possible and even though he couldn't get out much, he had a few things that he was managing with minimal help and I thought it was a case of doing whatever works!!
Same with my bank here in California.
As in Washington.
I think it has to do with a federal law.
There was far too much food, and she's sent us home with left-overs.
Not my aged parents, but a close friend ( who is not close to her children) is going to spend the next three months abroad, for warmer weather. Last year I helped her get Pension Credit and she is thrilled at the extra help it gets her. I felt I had to tell her today that she is only allowed to be out of the UK for four weeks, and that there is every likelihood that Passport Control will inform DWP/ Pension Service, which would lead to having to repay PC and potentially be investigated for Benefit fraud. She knew about the four weeks but was just going to ‘risk it’.
Fortunately she took it well and has informed the Pension Service. I am relieved.
She’s unconfident in her cooking skills, so now doesn’t cater for family gatherings, and her memory isn’t what it was (neither is mine!)
I just hope I’m as fit as her if I reach her age.
Mum had vascular dementia so her memory was fairy OK until 2017/18, what was really noticeable was that, in my husband's memorable phrase 'her logic boxes had fried'.
If you haven't already done so make sure you have Power of Attorney sorted, it makes things a lot easier if you need to start taking over things for your dad.
If you and your brother each decided to move, why should your mother have to leave an environment which is familiar to her, and with which she is apparently happy to continue living?
It partly depends how old your Dad is. But essentially, there is a large psychological cost to uprooting. The loss of social network and support, and of familiar activities and places. If his memory is already going it might cause more deterioration and faster deterioration.
I live a five hour journey from my elderly parents and my sister is 2.5hrs away but less able to take time off work. We alternate going up once every two months, so one or other of us is there every month. We video call every Sunday. We’ve arranged a key safe, and ensured local services have the code. They have fall alarms and my Dad wears an alert bracelet that looks much like a watch that contains his personal details including that he is my mother’s carer - emergency contact is his next door neighbour. My mum is entered in the Herbert protocol website
They have a small care package we’d like them to increase. Plus a cleaner who also does the ironing, who usually comes once a week.
Dad has lpa for health and finance for my mum, by I and my sister are named on the document to replace if he loses capacity - and we have have lpas for him, but they are not activated at this time because he has not lost capacity.
If LPAs do not exist, these have to be done before someone loses capacity to donate there power of attorney - if they already have the process for someone without capacity is deputyship. Or at least this is the process in England and Wales, not sure on the system in Scotland - but there will be an equivalent.
Dad gets practical and emotional support from his neighbours, his friends and his church and a very familiar routine. As mum’s mobility has got worse they have had alterations done wear they live, they have a stairlift, a level access shower with shower stool paid for by the NHS, and internal railings in the hall.
I am hoping they will never have to move, if it was really needed it would be possible to put an overhead hoist in.
Hope this is of help.
Hi @Gee D , I don't think you read my post properly, or indeed my previous post where I spoke of my mother dying in 2023. I think we all want the best for our parents, but sometimes, as was the case with my mum, they become unable to live independently and difficult decisions have to be made.
To add to the links @Doublethink has posted you might find The Dementia Support Forum a useful resource @mark_in_manchester. I found it invaluable for help and support when trying to do the best for my mum.
My sister and I left my parents where they were, which is what my Dad wanted. Mum would have preferred to be nearer my sisters. My sister was not in favour of this. Dad was definitely the one who kept his mind the longest, while Mum was the more physically able. Together they functioned as a unit for far longer than either of them would have functioned alone. My sister was not on the doorstep, but not far away either, and I could get there within a reasonable time. With my father's parents, my parents tried to get them to move right close to where we lived, which would have made their care easy while respecting their independence. We thought of a ground-floor flat three doors away. They refused. They struggled on until Grandpa died, and Gran tried to keep going, but in the end decided to live with my parents. She might have managed in the flat, who knows. It would have meant a different retirement for my parents.
He's 5 hours drive away, and I go every 5 or 6 weeks - and he is still able to get 2 trains to my Sis (as he's done it for a long time, before his memory really went downhill) once a month or so. She'd be happier to see him if he was less keen at resolving his 'missing female company' at their church. Since I (and he) are anonymous here, I can offer a smile at the thought of a man with no memory who cannot move without farting being out on the pull. It's quite a thing (and makes him vulnerable, but there is FA I can do about that).
He knows a good few people and goes to activities for a few hours most days, and while he can eat and is not sat cold at home - well, OK then. He's never visited anyone in a care home and I doubt anyone would want to visit him in one either, so if we end up there then somewhere close to me would probably be worth considering (I am less likely to move house than my sis). A friend in a similar position had his FIL collapse having driven himself to see them, and he never went home, going into care locally - a least-bad outcome in a very sh*t situation. He doesn't know where he is, which is perhaps not such a bad thing.
I like the idea of a gantry - I have most of the steel I might need behind the shed, but any carers might be alarmed at the LOLER implications