As I type this, I am remembering Kamala Harris' attack on Joe Biden over bussing. Can someone please help me rescue Biden while retaining my criticism of Goldwater.
If you support bussing, there is likely no defense of Biden's previous stance, back in his troglodyte days.
Which doesn't mean you shouldn't support him today, now that he's changed his position. If you refused to vote for any politician because you don't like a viewpoint they had advocated decades earlier, that would likely limit your options considerably.
(And yes, this would also have applied to Goldwater, had he moved as far to the left as Biden has, and especially if he was running against the absolute worst president since I-don't-know-when.)
The concerns about bussing, however, were genuine and not always race motivated ...
I was very fortunate to grow up in an excellent school district (which was ca. 95% "white") ...
Grade 3-6 I walked to my school (through waist deep snow, uphill both ways -- Minnesota, you see) ... and later I walked to my Middle School also (even longer trek, same conditions) ... In High School I had the option of riding the bus, but I mostly preferred to *hoof*it* ...
Point is, I went to the same school as my neighbor kids ... Some of our teachers were nearby neighbors ...
A legitimate concern was -- still is -- "neighborhood" schools ... The desire of many (including a large percentage of parents) was to improve the schools rather than shuffle the children ...
I was very fortunate to grow up in an excellent school district (which was ca. 95% "white") ...
<snip>
Point is, I went to the same school as my neighbor kids ... Some of our teachers were nearby neighbors ...
A legitimate concern was -- still is -- "neighborhood" schools ... The desire of many (including a large percentage of parents) was to improve the schools rather than shuffle the children ...
I'll also note that the concern white folks living in redlined neighborhoods felt to improve neighborhood schools in non-white neighborhoods was largely contingent on the likelihood that their own kids might have to attend those schools.
FWIW, in Edmonton Canada, my elementary and junior high(aka middle) schools could have accurately been described as "neighbourhood" schools, as far as the student-body went. I believe some of the teachers might have lived in the area, but I don't think most of us had a lot of social interaction with them. (These were Catholic schools, but I never saw any of the teachers at mass in the nearby churches, for example, and I was a weekly attendee.)
My high school's jurisdiction, so to speak, was a bunch of mostly continguous areas, but also included students from across the river who often commuted in by bus. The other side of the river was pretty much considered a separate part of the city.
Some of the teachers lived within walking or at least cycling distance of the school, but with one or two exceptions, I never knew exactly where their houses were.
(My high-school also had a Ukrainian bilingual progam, whose students came from all over the city.)
Oh, not that it's really important, but just for the sake of accurate recollection...
One of my high-school teachers was a priest, and he sometimes said mass at a church I attended. My family was a bit closer to him than to most of my other teachers(he baptized my father). But I never knew where he lived, much less visited him, when he was my teacher.
And is it really a good idea for a teacher to be pals around the neighbourhood with students' families anyway? I think they have to maintain a certain objectivity in regards to their students, which might be kinda difficult if they're shooting pool at the local pub with kids' parents.
And is it really a good idea for a teacher to be pals around the neighbourhood with students' families anyway? I think they have to maintain a certain objectivity in regards to their students, which might be kinda difficult if they're shooting pool at the local pub with kids' parents.
It's... really not that hard. Kids are kids and if they're great, they're great and if not, well, who their parents are matters not a jot.
I always went to neighborhood schools but we were blessed with a lot of international students as well. Staff children from nearby embassies in Wash. D.C. . Not only did we know the teachers, some of whom had taught our parents, but we also knew the neighborhood policeman who walked our beat, and came to school events. I think there is something to be said for children going to school in their own area. That said if your neighborhood was not integrated I think parents of children should have been allowed to send their children to different school districts. This was especially true where schools were covered by local real estate tax, thereby making money available for schools different depending on where you lived. I think things are better now, but there are still students who are not getting a good education because of where they live. The problem of unequal education offered to children has not gone away.
I was very fortunate to grow up in an excellent school district (which was ca. 95% "white") ...
<snip>
Point is, I went to the same school as my neighbor kids ... Some of our teachers were nearby neighbors ...
A legitimate concern was -- still is -- "neighborhood" schools ... The desire of many (including a large percentage of parents) was to improve the schools rather than shuffle the children ...
I'll also note that the concern white folks living in redlined neighborhoods felt to improve neighborhood schools in non-white neighborhoods was largely contingent on the likelihood that their own kids might have to attend those schools.
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
No, just counteract (some of) the effects redlining had on education, like @Graven Image's observation about the connection between property values and school budgets.
It's... really not that hard. Kids are kids and if they're great, they're great and if not, well, who their parents are matters not a jot.
...and in a small community, it's inevitable. Everyone knows everyone - whether you're the teacher, or the police officer, or the guy getting drunk and throwing up on the pool table. We're a fairly normal suburb, and lots of kids round here routinely see their teachers in the supermarket. I'm sure there are people that attend church with their teachers, or live next to a teacher, or whose dad is fishing buddies with their teacher, or whatever else.
Years ago in the UK, I used to regularly encounter my GP at the bridge table.
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
No, just counteract (some of) the effects redlining had on education, like @Graven Image's observation about the connection between property values and school budgets.
Hence the sensible suggestion by many,
(1) that the BUDGET and general supports should be increased for public schools
(2) even as our society tries to even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities ...
I remember the times and the debates ...
Many parents -- irrespective of the *race* of the child or parents -- were not keen on having THEIR kids spending an additional two hours every day on a bus ...
That is my point ...
Indeed. Going back to Kamala Harris you'll note the paternalism of worrying about students riding a bus for 20 minutes twice every school day is turned into a backhanded criticism of parents like the Harrises who would subject their kids to such an atrocity to attend a better school.
No ...
As per the SCOTUS, "separate is inherently unequal" ...
And, no ...
In Brown v. Board of Education, the SCOTUS did not order "bussing" as the remedy ..
Indeed. Going back to Kamala Harris you'll note the paternalism of worrying about students riding a bus for 20 minutes twice every school day is turned into a backhanded criticism of parents like the Harrises who would subject their kids to such an atrocity to attend a better school.
It wasn't only "white" parents who weren't thrilled with 'bussing" ...
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
No, just counteract (some of) the effects redlining had on education, like @Graven Image's observation about the connection between property values and school budgets.
Hence the sensible suggestion by many,
(1) that the BUDGET and general supports should be increased for public schools
(2) even as our society tries to even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities ...
I remember the times and the debates ...
Many parents -- irrespective of the *race* of the child or parents -- were not keen on having THEIR kids spending an additional two hours every day on a bus ...
That is my point ...
Oh, bullshit. White parents opposed to bussing never advocated for more money for the schools that minority students attended - if they did, how the hell could they have gotten so poor in the first place?
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
No, just counteract (some of) the effects redlining had on education, like @Graven Image's observation about the connection between property values and school budgets.
Hence the sensible suggestion by many,
(1) that the BUDGET and general supports should be increased for public schools
(2) even as our society tries to even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities ...
I remember the times and the debates ...
Many parents -- irrespective of the *race* of the child or parents -- were not keen on having THEIR kids spending an additional two hours every day on a bus ...
That is my point ...
Oh, bullshit. White parents opposed to bussing never advocated for more money for the schools that minority students attended - if they did, how the hell could they have gotten so poor in the first place?
Huh ...
"We know what ALL 'WHITE' parents are like ..." ... ???
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
No, just counteract (some of) the effects redlining had on education, like @Graven Image's observation about the connection between property values and school budgets.
Hence the sensible suggestion by many,
(1) that the BUDGET and general supports should be increased for public schools
(2) even as our society tries to even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities ...
I remember the times and the debates ...
Many parents -- irrespective of the *race* of the child or parents -- were not keen on having THEIR kids spending an additional two hours every day on a bus ...
That is my point ...
Oh, bullshit. White parents opposed to bussing never advocated for more money for the schools that minority students attended - if they did, how the hell could they have gotten so poor in the first place?
Huh ...
"We know what ALL 'WHITE' parents are like ..." ... ???
Since we live in America - why yes, we do know what racism is, and we know who had control over budgets, and what they chose to spend money on. And we don't need to pretend that there were large numbers of white parents who were advocating increased spending on schools for minority students as an alternative to school integration.
And we don't need to pretend that there were large numbers of white parents who were advocating increased spending on schools for minority students as an alternative to school integration.
Or who were advocating for integrated neighborhoods as a means of achieving integration without bussing.
And we don't need to pretend that there were large numbers of white parents who were advocating increased spending on schools for minority students as an alternative to school integration.
Or who were advocating for integrated neighborhoods as a means of achieving integration without bussing.
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
No, just counteract (some of) the effects redlining had on education, like @Graven Image's observation about the connection between property values and school budgets.
Hence the sensible suggestion by many,
(1) that the BUDGET and general supports should be increased for public schools
(2) even as our society tries to even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities ...
I remember the times and the debates ...
Many parents -- irrespective of the *race* of the child or parents -- were not keen on having THEIR kids spending an additional two hours every day on a bus ...
That is my point ...
Oh, bullshit. White parents opposed to bussing never advocated for more money for the schools that minority students attended - if they did, how the hell could they have gotten so poor in the first place?
Huh ...
"We know what ALL 'WHITE' parents are like ..." ... ???
Since we live in America - why yes, we do know what racism is, and we know who had control over budgets, and what they chose to spend money on. And we don't need to pretend that there were large numbers of white parents who were advocating increased spending on schools for minority students as an alternative to school integration.
In Brown v. Board of Education, the SCOTUS did not order "bussing" as the remedy ..
For those unfamiliar with the facts of the case this bit of shameless mendacity may have passed unnoticed. Allow me to elucidate.
The school board of Topeka, Kansas maintained racially segregated schools, but not many of them. This meant that black students, like Linda Brown, had to be bused to distant facilities rather than attending their (Whites Only) neighborhood schools a few blocks away. Apparently the solicitude of white folks about the indignity of long bus rides doesn't cross the color line. It's okay as long as it's used to maintain "an excellent school district", which is a euphemism for a "ca. 95% white" student body. Apparently Oliver Brown should have been more reasonable and waited for society to "even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities" and then sent his daughter to elementary school. (Linda Brown died in 2018, and I get the feeling she'd still be waiting for that elementary school education if she waited for all those "vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities" to be eliminated.)
In Brown v. Board of Education, the SCOTUS did not order "bussing" as the remedy ..
For those unfamiliar with the facts of the case this bit of shameless mendacity may have passed unnoticed. Allow me to elucidate.
The school board of Topeka, Kansas maintained racially segregated schools, but not many of them. This meant that black students, like Linda Brown, had to be bused to distant facilities rather than attending their (Whites Only) neighborhood schools a few blocks away. Apparently the solicitude of white folks about the indignity of long bus rides doesn't cross the color line. It's okay as long as it's used to maintain "an excellent school district", which is a euphemism for a "ca. 95% white" student body. Apparently Oliver Brown should have been more reasonable and waited for society to "even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities" and then sent his daughter to elementary school. (Linda Brown died in 2018, and I get the feeling she'd still be waiting for that elementary school education if she waited for all those "vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities" to be eliminated.)
My goodness, you are a (self) righteous -- even god-like??? -- person, fit to project your own prejudices onto others, able to read their minds, and so on ...
But ... You have no idea where or how I grew up, K-12 or later, yet because I am "white" you assume and assert that I am a racist ...
(As I indicated -- above -- while I had the option of riding the bus to high school, I almost always preferred to walk ... Why was that ... ???)
My goodness, you are a (self) righteous -- even god-like??? -- person, fit to project your own prejudices onto others, able to read their minds, and so on ...
But ... You have no idea where or how I grew up, K-12 or later, yet because I am "white" you assume and assert that I am a racist ...
(As I indicated -- above -- while I had the option of riding the bus to high school, I almost always preferred to walk ... Why was that ... ???)
Ah, the old "Yes-racism-is-rampant-all-around-me-but-I-know-better-and-don't-share-that-belief-so-I'm-not-a-racist" argument. Been there, done that, and, sadly, still doing it.
Of course, at one level this is right, @Fr Teilhard. It is, at least, some sort of starting point. Until/unless we explain in detail, we none of us have much grasp of what any of our personal anti-racism efforts consist of.
Sharing this sort of thing -- "Here's what I do to combat racism at my school / at my job / in my family / in my church / in myself" -- might seem a little self-congratulatory. Maintaining radio silence on the subject only perpetuates the huge general cultural resistance to acknowledging its persistent, pernicious, pervasive, and corrosive presence in our society. And nearly every discussion I've ever been drawn into about this issue (among so-called "whites," anyway) . . always seems to boil down to "Well, I'm not a racists, but let me tell you about the horrible thing some work-make / group-member / acquaintance said or did that I found totally unjustified and deeply offensive and which drove an insurmountable wedge between us forever."
All of which leaves me scratching my head. With so many well-meaning, apparently sincere and committed non-racists around, how do we manage to maintain a society in which income, education, occupation, health, and life expectancy outcomes across the board remain so stubbornly challenging for people of color? One might almost begin to suspect that all those good intentions and wishes allegedly harbored by so many white folks like me were somehow Not Quite Enough.
So confession time: here's how I contributed today to fostering equality for people of color in my society: zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzz
My goodness, you are a (self) righteous -- even god-like??? -- person, fit to project your own prejudices onto others, able to read their minds, and so on ...
But ... You have no idea where or how I grew up, K-12 or later, yet because I am "white" you assume and assert that I am a racist ...
(As I indicated -- above -- while I had the option of riding the bus to high school, I almost always preferred to walk ... Why was that ... ???)
Ah, the old "Yes-racism-is-rampant-all-around-me-but-I-know-better-and-don't-share-that-belief-so-I'm-not-a-racist" argument. Been there, done that, and, sadly, still doing it.
Of course, at one level this is right, @Fr Teilhard. It is, at least, some sort of starting point. Until/unless we explain in detail, we none of us have much grasp of what any of our personal anti-racism efforts consist of.
Sharing this sort of thing -- "Here's what I do to combat racism at my school / at my job / in my family / in my church / in myself" -- might seem a little self-congratulatory. Maintaining radio silence on the subject only perpetuates the huge general cultural resistance to acknowledging its persistent, pernicious, pervasive, and corrosive presence in our society. And nearly every discussion I've ever been drawn into about this issue (among so-called "whites," anyway) . . always seems to boil down to "Well, I'm not a racists, but let me tell you about the horrible thing some work-make / group-member / acquaintance said or did that I found totally unjustified and deeply offensive and which drove an insurmountable wedge between us forever."
All of which leaves me scratching my head. With so many well-meaning, apparently sincere and committed non-racists around, how do we manage to maintain a society in which income, education, occupation, health, and life expectancy outcomes across the board remain so stubbornly challenging for people of color? One might almost begin to suspect that all those good intentions and wishes allegedly harbored by so many white folks like me were somehow Not Quite Enough.
So confession time: here's how I contributed today to fostering equality for people of color in my society: zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzz
The point of the original question was about Joe Biden's long ago opposition to bussing and the reason(s) for it ...
I've never met Joe in person, had a conversation with him, been able to "size him up" one on one ... and unlike (apparently) quite a few other including you, I don't have the ability to read his mind at a distance ...
What I do KNOW -- having been politically aware and active since the 60s -- is that SOME objections to "bussing" had nothing at all to do with "racism" at any level ...
But, okay, I'll continue to *bite* ... (since you seem to love "trolling") ...
Please tell me ... My affirmation of the need for "affirmative action" is an indication of my pernicious "soft racism," i.e., the gross idea that People of Color are inherently incapable of making it on their own, without "white" intervention ... ??? ... Is that it ... ???
I have just begun to read The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein (New York: The Liveright Publishing Corp 2017). Rothstein argues that since 1866, when the 13th Amendment was passed up until 1968 the United States had been using laws to segregate urban neighborhoods from African Americans. For instance, after WWII, when the Veterans Administration Home Loan program came out, black returning veterans were not able to apply for the loans which forced them to live in the inner city while their white (former) brothers in arms were allowed to move out into the new suburban areas. Consequently, black wealth severely lagged because they could not build up equity in their houses. In 1950 a house that would have cost around $7,000 then would have been worth around $47,000 in 1980 when those veterans would have been retiring. That same house today would be worth $119,000 depending on where it is built--in California it could be ten times as much.
My goodness, you are a (self) righteous -- even god-like??? -- person, fit to project your own prejudices onto others, able to read their minds, and so on ...
But ... You have no idea where or how I grew up, K-12 or later, yet because I am "white" you assume and assert that I am a racist ...
(As I indicated -- above -- while I had the option of riding the bus to high school, I almost always preferred to walk ... Why was that ... ???)
Ah, the old "Yes-racism-is-rampant-all-around-me-but-I-know-better-and-don't-share-that-belief-so-I'm-not-a-racist" argument. Been there, done that, and, sadly, still doing it.
Of course, at one level this is right, @Fr Teilhard. It is, at least, some sort of starting point. Until/unless we explain in detail, we none of us have much grasp of what any of our personal anti-racism efforts consist of.
Sharing this sort of thing -- "Here's what I do to combat racism at my school / at my job / in my family / in my church / in myself" -- might seem a little self-congratulatory. Maintaining radio silence on the subject only perpetuates the huge general cultural resistance to acknowledging its persistent, pernicious, pervasive, and corrosive presence in our society. And nearly every discussion I've ever been drawn into about this issue (among so-called "whites," anyway) . . always seems to boil down to "Well, I'm not a racists, but let me tell you about the horrible thing some work-make / group-member / acquaintance said or did that I found totally unjustified and deeply offensive and which drove an insurmountable wedge between us forever."
All of which leaves me scratching my head. With so many well-meaning, apparently sincere and committed non-racists around, how do we manage to maintain a society in which income, education, occupation, health, and life expectancy outcomes across the board remain so stubbornly challenging for people of color? One might almost begin to suspect that all those good intentions and wishes allegedly harbored by so many white folks like me were somehow Not Quite Enough.
So confession time: here's how I contributed today to fostering equality for people of color in my society: zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzz
Ohher, do you teach at a community college, or am I confusing you with someone else? Is that contributing to fostering equality for people of colour? If your classes include people of colour, surely you are contributing. Plus, I'm pretty sure you were present for MLK's I have a Dream speech, and that you were not holding a truncheon.
Australia shares the dishonour of being in the big league of structural racism, right up there with the Apartheid regime. Even living here is to participate in enjoying the fruits of genocide and an immigration policy that ensured most of us can trace our ancestry back to the British Isles or Europe. I think there is great value in identifying the racist underpinnings of society, and the racist modes of thinking that I was taught simply by being around and listening to adult conversation in the 1970's, let alone the balderised history that was the 1970's curriculum.
Given all that, how can I not be racist to some degree? Surely my primary task is to identify and try to stop myself saying or doing things that are racist. Perhaps my next self-imposed obligation is to prioritise change in structurally racist Australia when working out who to vote for. If I do that, I think I am making a sufficient contribution to prevent tearing strips off myself. What can I do? At least I can do that, as a bare minimum.
There are other things that can be done short of being a full time activist and doing stuff like guarding sacred trees so road crews don't destroy them (happening now). But personal acknowledgement that I say and do racist things from time to time and doing the work to try and lessen those times is the most important and immediate work for me.
If your classes include people of colour, surely you are contributing.
Contributing what, though? I suspect I'm just another in a long line of well-meaning but clueless white ladies who tries hard but will never really Get It.
Australia shares the dishonour of being in the big league of structural racism, right up there with the Apartheid regime. Even living here is to participate in enjoying the fruits of genocide and an immigration policy that ensured most of us can trace our ancestry back to the British Isles or Europe. I think there is great value in identifying the racist underpinnings of society, and the racist modes of thinking that I was taught simply by being around and listening to adult conversation in the 1970's, let alone the balderised history that was the 1970's curriculum.
Given all that, how can I not be racist to some degree?
This is the question I wish more "whites" would ask themselves, and ask more often, and explore more deeply.
Surely my primary task is to identify and try to stop myself saying or doing things that are racist. Perhaps my next self-imposed obligation is to prioritise change in structurally racist Australia when working out who to vote for. If I do that, I think I am making a sufficient contribution to prevent tearing strips off myself. What can I do? At least I can do that, as a bare minimum.
There are other things that can be done short of being a full time activist and doing stuff like guarding sacred trees so road crews don't destroy them (happening now). But personal acknowledgement that I say and do racist things from time to time and doing the work to try and lessen those times is the most important and immediate work for me.
Well said. I wish more of us would undertake similar tasks with similar commitment
Whatever else, you spent 30 years giving people a chance at something better.
I went to community college, before I went off to a four-year. One thing I like about them is that the students there either really want to be there, or they know they need to be there. And community colleges are much less expensive than other colleges.
Plus the variety of programs available, and ways to attend: you can finish high school by getting your GED; get certification for a vocation; do a college transfer program; and take individual classes, as you like.
Community college is an equalizer, a leveling of the playing field.
Plus, who says you have to get it to be an agent for change? It's impossible for me to really know what its like to grow up in a dysfunctional family, or be hungry. I can read about it, talk to people, but I'll never get it properly. I can still contribute to change. I don't need to understand the experience of poverty.
The bussing tangent has edged from time to time into Commandment 3 territory, folks. The main thread is of course on its last legs. I'll keep an eye on the value of a split. Meanwhile, watch the Commandment 3 boundaries.
Not true. You're right to say that minorities make up a larger and larger share of the US population, but residential and school segregation are as bad today as they were in the 1950s, or worse. School integration peaked in about the late 80s or early 90s, and dropped off again when the feds looked away.
Not true. You're right to say that minorities make up a larger and larger share of the US population, but residential and school segregation are as bad today as they were in the 1950s, or worse. School integration peaked in about the late 80s or early 90s, and dropped off again when the feds looked away.
"White anxiety" still plays a large role in American society ... but will gradually wither away ...
Not true. You're right to say that minorities make up a larger and larger share of the US population, but residential and school segregation are as bad today as they were in the 1950s, or worse. School integration peaked in about the late 80s or early 90s, and dropped off again when the feds looked away.
Was it the feds looking away? I think rather it was the whites moving away and/or signing their kids up for private and religious schools, plus political pressure on local school districts to fund the school choices being made by the anxious white parents.
It all boils down to deep-rooted prejudice and fear of the other.
My public school in Lodi CA was incredibly diverse back in 1984, reflecting the community around it. It was also just MASSIVE, and had girls... of all shapes and sizes. For a lad from a small private Catholic school it was quite an eye-opener. My best mates were a skinny Indian kid who drove a light blue Pinto, a Pakistani kid whose Dad ran a local restaurant, where he worked, a Vietnamese man catching up on his education after half a life as a refugee, and a few other nerdy kids. He was on his way to Stanford. I was totally at sea with relating to the girls, mostly agog to be honest. Yet somehow, the person I am still in touch with is a woman whose house Mandy and I stayed at in 2016.
California was much more diverse than Melbourne, the most diverse city in Australia, at least in the 1980's. For us that has changed now, for the better. Lots of East Asian, African and South Asian migrants, and some too from the ME and Afghanistan. "We are one and we are many." I find it interesting that I distinguish ethnic groups from Asia easily, but I don't think I can do that with African immigrants. I don't know enough.
Sorry, got off track. I am not sure whether we have "white" schools, even by default. Maybe. But Catholic private schools are European plus others, and the same with state schools. I think wealth and poverty is the deciding factor in school attendance here, and that's not really racially defined.
My son’s school was very diverse too. His best friends were Sikh, Hindu and Muslim. They regularly spent time in each other’s houses and for meals. All four decided to become Hindus when they grew up as Hindus have far more parties!
Re Aussie schools and segregation, there are a couple of factors at play:
1. Recent migrants are wealthier than they were in the post-war period, and try to educate their kids in the best schools they can afford.
2. European migrants after the war flourished and are now part of every segment of Australian society.
3. Schools associated with churches and mosques bend over backwards to let kids from their congregation go to their schools, regardless of whether their parents can pay.
4. Most Melbourne suburbs are diverse, as to income and ethnicity, with only a few exceptions. There are certainly richer areas, but moderate and low income housing is threaded throughout them, partly through policy, and partly by private development of higher density housing.
5. For the truly white bread experience, go to a country town, but things are changing there too.
Not true. You're right to say that minorities make up a larger and larger share of the US population, but residential and school segregation are as bad today as they were in the 1950s, or worse. School integration peaked in about the late 80s or early 90s, and dropped off again when the feds looked away.
Was it the feds looking away? I think rather it was the whites moving away and/or signing their kids up for private and religious schools, plus political pressure on local school districts to fund the school choices being made by the anxious white parents.
It all boils down to deep-rooted prejudice and fear of the other.
Yes ...
Over time, actual life experience tends to ease one's anxieties ...
My public school in Lodi CA was incredibly diverse back in 1984, reflecting the community around it. It was also just MASSIVE, and had girls... of all shapes and sizes. For a lad from a small private Catholic school it was quite an eye-opener. My best mates were a skinny Indian kid who drove a light blue Pinto, a Pakistani kid whose Dad ran a local restaurant, where he worked, a Vietnamese man catching up on his education after half a life as a refugee, and a few other nerdy kids. He was on his way to Stanford. I was totally at sea with relating to the girls, mostly agog to be honest. Yet somehow, the person I am still in touch with is a woman whose house Mandy and I stayed at in 2016.
California was much more diverse than Melbourne, the most diverse city in Australia, at least in the 1980's. For us that has changed now, for the better. Lots of East Asian, African and South Asian migrants, and some too from the ME and Afghanistan. "We are one and we are many." I find it interesting that I distinguish ethnic groups from Asia easily, but I don't think I can do that with African immigrants. I don't know enough.
Sorry, got off track. I am not sure whether we have "white" schools, even by default. Maybe. But Catholic private schools are European plus others, and the same with state schools. I think wealth and poverty is the deciding factor in school attendance here, and that's not really racially defined.
My last two decades of parish ministry were mostly "interim" ... When a parish went vacant, the bishop sent me to take care of things until a new pastor could be called, and in about a third to half of situations I cleaned up one or another kind of *mess* ...
Sometimes I was in the inner city, sometimes a suburb, sometimes out in farm country ... Something I have noted throughout my parish work is that EVERY neighborhood everywhere is always a community in transition -- demographically, economically, socially ...
My longest term was twelve years out on the prairie in very rural SW Minnesota, a two point parish of (mostly) Swedish Lutherans ... For years, the people were increasingly desperate as young folks graduated and moved away to school and jobs ... The small towns and small churches struggled to stay viable and there were earnest prayers for PEOPLE to come to them ...
And they came ... Difficult jobs were available in poultry and hog slaughter plants, empty houses were inexpensive, and vacant store fronts were had for little $$$ ...
By the time we left after twelve years fully one fourth of the active members of one of my congregations were SE Asian immigrant refugees -- Buddhists, but too far away from their community, so they came to us to offer prayers, make sacrifices, and have their families guided in ways of mindfulness and peace ... Marty Luther would have been spinning in his grave had he known that we were communing unbaptized Buddhists ... But at that point hospitality overrides theology and pastoral care of souls was job #1 ...
We're all in this together ... for real ...
Baruch ha Shem Adonai Eloheinu ha Melech Olam ...
Not true. You're right to say that minorities make up a larger and larger share of the US population, but residential and school segregation are as bad today as they were in the 1950s, or worse. School integration peaked in about the late 80s or early 90s, and dropped off again when the feds looked away.
Was it the feds looking away? I think rather it was the whites moving away and/or signing their kids up for private and religious schools, plus political pressure on local school districts to fund the school choices being made by the anxious white parents.
It all boils down to deep-rooted prejudice and fear of the other.
Yes ...
Over time, actual life experience tends to ease one's anxieties ...
You'd think so, but the age profile of Trumpers and Brexiters suggests that prejudice has a long half-life.
Not true. You're right to say that minorities make up a larger and larger share of the US population, but residential and school segregation are as bad today as they were in the 1950s, or worse. School integration peaked in about the late 80s or early 90s, and dropped off again when the feds looked away.
Was it the feds looking away? I think rather it was the whites moving away and/or signing their kids up for private and religious schools, plus political pressure on local school districts to fund the school choices being made by the anxious white parents.
It all boils down to deep-rooted prejudice and fear of the other.
Yes ...
Over time, actual life experience tends to ease one's anxieties ...
You'd think so, but the age profile of Trumpers and Brexiters suggests that prejudice has a long half-life.
Cognitive dissonance happens now and then if you're paying attention, and ways of dealing with that experience vary from person to person ...
... and of course generalities are true only generally, and exceptions commonly prove a rule ...
... and, yes, perversity leads some people to embrace their own disadvantage or even doom ...
To the point about integrated schools, one of the things I have always liked about our community is the cosmopolitan nature of the school system. Because we are a university town, we have international faculty and students, many of whom have brought their families to the community. Those families have kids who need to be schooled. Consequently, our kids would have peers from all over the world. Those kids would bring their culture and perspectives into the mix of our educational system. There are two smaller private schools but to my knowledge, they have been just integrated as the public school system.
To Fr Teilhard's point about radical hospitality, my congregation has developed a supportive relationship with the Islamic Prayer Center just three blocks from our church. It started shortly after 9-11 when the Center was targetted by some right-wing radicals. The local clergy association came out in support of the center and our congregation along with others started having fellowship experiences with them (like celebrating Eid--btw, there are a number of lesser Eids). It continued when Lybia cut off its support of the Lybian students who were at the university. We gave them food and housing assistance while the university continued their tuition. Recently, when the Center's building was tagged by a lone vandal some of the people from our congregation went over there to help clean up the graffiti.
To the point about integrated schools, one of the things I have always liked about our community is the cosmopolitan nature of the school system. Because we are a university town, we have international faculty and students, many of whom have brought their families to the community. Those families have kids who need to be schooled. Consequently, our kids would have peers from all over the world. Those kids would bring their culture and perspectives into the mix of our educational system. There are two smaller private schools but to my knowledge, they have been just integrated as the public school system.
To Fr Teilhard's point about radical hospitality, my congregation has developed a supportive relationship with the Islamic Prayer Center just three blocks from our church. It started shortly after 9-11 when the Center was targetted by some right-wing radicals. The local clergy association came out in support of the center and our congregation along with others started having fellowship experiences with them (like celebrating Eid--btw, there are a number of lesser Eids). It continued when Lybia cut off its support of the Lybian students who were at the university. We gave them food and housing assistance while the university continued their tuition. Recently, when the Center's building was tagged by a lone vandal some of the people from our congregation went over there to help clean up the graffiti.
That sounds like the old "we have lots of diversity except for black people and poor people" problem. At historically white universities, why are there so many more professors who moved here from foreign countries, than African-American professors? Also, don't get too complacent about good schools in college towns.
The workforce in academia (and hence the population of most small college towns) is incredibly segregated by class, race, and gender. Try asking yourself why it's so much easier for white academics to form friendships and find commonality with middle-class/wealthy people from other countries, than with working-class people from their own city.
Gramps, you are in the PNW which is historically hostile to black residents - how many American-born black families live in your school district at all?
By the way, I grew up a faculty brat in Chapel Hill - one of the towns featured in the above Atlantic article - so I do know the territory.
Not true. You're right to say that minorities make up a larger and larger share of the US population, but residential and school segregation are as bad today as they were in the 1950s, or worse. School integration peaked in about the late 80s or early 90s, and dropped off again when the feds looked away.
Was it the feds looking away? I think rather it was the whites moving away and/or signing their kids up for private and religious schools, plus political pressure on local school districts to fund the school choices being made by the anxious white parents.
It all boils down to deep-rooted prejudice and fear of the other.
Actually if you look at points 2 and 3 in the first article I posted, it's pretty clear that school districts being released from court oversight played a big part in re-segregating formerly integrated schools. And of course, thanks to the Milliken decision in the 1970s, northern school systems never integrated in the first place.
That sounds like the old "we have lots of diversity except for black people and poor people" problem. At historically white universities, why are there so many more professors who moved here from foreign countries, than African-American professors? Also, don't get too complacent about good schools in college towns.
The workforce in academia (and hence the population of most small college towns) is incredibly segregated by class, race, and gender. Try asking yourself why it's so much easier for white academics to form friendships and find commonality with middle-class/wealthy people from other countries, than with working-class people from their own city.
Gramps, you are in the PNW which is historically hostile to black residents - how many American-born black families live in your school district at all?
By the way, I grew up a faculty brat in Chapel Hill - one of the towns featured in the above Atlantic article - so I do know the territory.
Our school district reports there are 1,742 (71.7%) Whites, 231 (9.5%) Asians/Pacific Islanders, 226 (9.3%) Asians, 225 (9.3%) Hispanics, 154 (6.3%) people with two or more races, 62 (2.6%) Blacks, 14 (0.6%) American Indians/Alaskan Natives and 5 (0.2%) Pacific Islanders. According to the census bureau, there are 1,038 African Americans (2018) in my community compared to 450 and 305 respectively in communities of similar size in the congressional district
Please do not stereotype my community. We are far different from Chapel Hill. I can tell you as far as academia is concerned, though, the number of chairs, administrative officers we have are proportionate to our faculty numbers. We recently lost a well-liked president of the university to cancer who was African American.
I don’t think your community was being stereotyped. I think you were being asked questions designed to test or explore possible underlying assumptions, which is quite reasonable.
We are far different from Chapel Hill.
How do you know what Chapel Hill—which is in North Carolina, not South Carolina— is like?
FWIW, I do know Chapel Hill. I recognize Antisocial Alto’s description of places like it. And I know lots of people in Chapel Hill, both within the University and outside it, who would describe the community and its schools very much as you have described your community and its schools.
I don’t think your community was being stereotyped. I think you were being asked questions designed to test or explore possible underlying assumptions, which is quite reasonable.
We are far different from Chapel Hill.
How do you know what Chapel Hill—which is in North Carolina, not South Carolina— is like?
FWIW, I do know Chapel Hill. I recognize Antisocial Alto’s description of places like it. And I know lots of people in Chapel Hill, both within the University and outside it, who would describe the community and its schools very much as you have described your community and its schools.
People often see what they want to see.
Sorry about the mislocation of Chapel Hill, I had edited it out while you were entering your reply.
As far as my knowledge of Chapel Hill is concerned, I had a good friend who was a faculty member there and we visited them once. He is now retired. My daughter also considered becoming a student there, which I would have supported (my motto: I don't care where you go to school as long as it is 500 miles from home.)
And I do believe Antisocial Alto made a stereotypical reference to the Pacific Northwest and made the assumption my community is no different.
Comments
The concerns about bussing, however, were genuine and not always race motivated ...
I was very fortunate to grow up in an excellent school district (which was ca. 95% "white") ...
Grade 3-6 I walked to my school (through waist deep snow, uphill both ways -- Minnesota, you see) ... and later I walked to my Middle School also (even longer trek, same conditions) ... In High School I had the option of riding the bus, but I mostly preferred to *hoof*it* ...
Point is, I went to the same school as my neighbor kids ... Some of our teachers were nearby neighbors ...
A legitimate concern was -- still is -- "neighborhood" schools ... The desire of many (including a large percentage of parents) was to improve the schools rather than shuffle the children ...
Because nothing is ever motivated by race in America. It's always "property values", or "cultural similarity", or "crime", or . . .
As for the question of why certain neighborhoods were "ca. 95% white", that's often pitched as a pure coincidence rather than a concerted political effort to drive out / keep out non-whites from predominantly white neighborhoods.
I'll also note that the concern white folks living in redlined neighborhoods felt to improve neighborhood schools in non-white neighborhoods was largely contingent on the likelihood that their own kids might have to attend those schools.
My high school's jurisdiction, so to speak, was a bunch of mostly continguous areas, but also included students from across the river who often commuted in by bus. The other side of the river was pretty much considered a separate part of the city.
Some of the teachers lived within walking or at least cycling distance of the school, but with one or two exceptions, I never knew exactly where their houses were.
(My high-school also had a Ukrainian bilingual progam, whose students came from all over the city.)
One of my high-school teachers was a priest, and he sometimes said mass at a church I attended. My family was a bit closer to him than to most of my other teachers(he baptized my father). But I never knew where he lived, much less visited him, when he was my teacher.
And is it really a good idea for a teacher to be pals around the neighbourhood with students' families anyway? I think they have to maintain a certain objectivity in regards to their students, which might be kinda difficult if they're shooting pool at the local pub with kids' parents.
It's... really not that hard. Kids are kids and if they're great, they're great and if not, well, who their parents are matters not a jot.
"Bussing" students across town to *other* schools didn't stop -- wasn't meant to stop -- "redlining" ...
No, just counteract (some of) the effects redlining had on education, like @Graven Image's observation about the connection between property values and school budgets.
...and in a small community, it's inevitable. Everyone knows everyone - whether you're the teacher, or the police officer, or the guy getting drunk and throwing up on the pool table. We're a fairly normal suburb, and lots of kids round here routinely see their teachers in the supermarket. I'm sure there are people that attend church with their teachers, or live next to a teacher, or whose dad is fishing buddies with their teacher, or whatever else.
Years ago in the UK, I used to regularly encounter my GP at the bridge table.
Hence the sensible suggestion by many,
(1) that the BUDGET and general supports should be increased for public schools
(2) even as our society tries to even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities ...
I remember the times and the debates ...
Many parents -- irrespective of the *race* of the child or parents -- were not keen on having THEIR kids spending an additional two hours every day on a bus ...
That is my point ...
Indeed. Going back to Kamala Harris you'll note the paternalism of worrying about students riding a bus for 20 minutes twice every school day is turned into a backhanded criticism of parents like the Harrises who would subject their kids to such an atrocity to attend a better school.
No ...
As per the SCOTUS, "separate is inherently unequal" ...
And, no ...
In Brown v. Board of Education, the SCOTUS did not order "bussing" as the remedy ..
It wasn't only "white" parents who weren't thrilled with 'bussing" ...
Huh ...
"We know what ALL 'WHITE' parents are like ..." ... ???
bingo
Huh ...
Just ... Huh ...
For those unfamiliar with the facts of the case this bit of shameless mendacity may have passed unnoticed. Allow me to elucidate.
The school board of Topeka, Kansas maintained racially segregated schools, but not many of them. This meant that black students, like Linda Brown, had to be bused to distant facilities rather than attending their (Whites Only) neighborhood schools a few blocks away. Apparently the solicitude of white folks about the indignity of long bus rides doesn't cross the color line. It's okay as long as it's used to maintain "an excellent school district", which is a euphemism for a "ca. 95% white" student body. Apparently Oliver Brown should have been more reasonable and waited for society to "even out vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities across communities" and then sent his daughter to elementary school. (Linda Brown died in 2018, and I get the feeling she'd still be waiting for that elementary school education if she waited for all those "vexing social-economic-political injustices and inequities" to be eliminated.)
My goodness, you are a (self) righteous -- even god-like??? -- person, fit to project your own prejudices onto others, able to read their minds, and so on ...
But ... You have no idea where or how I grew up, K-12 or later, yet because I am "white" you assume and assert that I am a racist ...
(As I indicated -- above -- while I had the option of riding the bus to high school, I almost always preferred to walk ... Why was that ... ???)
Ah, the old "Yes-racism-is-rampant-all-around-me-but-I-know-better-and-don't-share-that-belief-so-I'm-not-a-racist" argument. Been there, done that, and, sadly, still doing it.
Of course, at one level this is right, @Fr Teilhard. It is, at least, some sort of starting point. Until/unless we explain in detail, we none of us have much grasp of what any of our personal anti-racism efforts consist of.
Sharing this sort of thing -- "Here's what I do to combat racism at my school / at my job / in my family / in my church / in myself" -- might seem a little self-congratulatory. Maintaining radio silence on the subject only perpetuates the huge general cultural resistance to acknowledging its persistent, pernicious, pervasive, and corrosive presence in our society. And nearly every discussion I've ever been drawn into about this issue (among so-called "whites," anyway) . . always seems to boil down to "Well, I'm not a racists, but let me tell you about the horrible thing some work-make / group-member / acquaintance said or did that I found totally unjustified and deeply offensive and which drove an insurmountable wedge between us forever."
All of which leaves me scratching my head. With so many well-meaning, apparently sincere and committed non-racists around, how do we manage to maintain a society in which income, education, occupation, health, and life expectancy outcomes across the board remain so stubbornly challenging for people of color? One might almost begin to suspect that all those good intentions and wishes allegedly harbored by so many white folks like me were somehow Not Quite Enough.
So confession time: here's how I contributed today to fostering equality for people of color in my society: zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzz
The point of the original question was about Joe Biden's long ago opposition to bussing and the reason(s) for it ...
I've never met Joe in person, had a conversation with him, been able to "size him up" one on one ... and unlike (apparently) quite a few other including you, I don't have the ability to read his mind at a distance ...
What I do KNOW -- having been politically aware and active since the 60s -- is that SOME objections to "bussing" had nothing at all to do with "racism" at any level ...
But, okay, I'll continue to *bite* ... (since you seem to love "trolling") ...
Please tell me ... My affirmation of the need for "affirmative action" is an indication of my pernicious "soft racism," i.e., the gross idea that People of Color are inherently incapable of making it on their own, without "white" intervention ... ??? ... Is that it ... ???
Ohher, do you teach at a community college, or am I confusing you with someone else? Is that contributing to fostering equality for people of colour? If your classes include people of colour, surely you are contributing. Plus, I'm pretty sure you were present for MLK's I have a Dream speech, and that you were not holding a truncheon.
Australia shares the dishonour of being in the big league of structural racism, right up there with the Apartheid regime. Even living here is to participate in enjoying the fruits of genocide and an immigration policy that ensured most of us can trace our ancestry back to the British Isles or Europe. I think there is great value in identifying the racist underpinnings of society, and the racist modes of thinking that I was taught simply by being around and listening to adult conversation in the 1970's, let alone the balderised history that was the 1970's curriculum.
Given all that, how can I not be racist to some degree? Surely my primary task is to identify and try to stop myself saying or doing things that are racist. Perhaps my next self-imposed obligation is to prioritise change in structurally racist Australia when working out who to vote for. If I do that, I think I am making a sufficient contribution to prevent tearing strips off myself. What can I do? At least I can do that, as a bare minimum.
There are other things that can be done short of being a full time activist and doing stuff like guarding sacred trees so road crews don't destroy them (happening now). But personal acknowledgement that I say and do racist things from time to time and doing the work to try and lessen those times is the most important and immediate work for me.
I've just wrapped up my final semester after 30 years of teaching.
I wish to God I knew. Given the struggles they've shared with me, there's not a lot of evidence of marked improvement.
Contributing what, though? I suspect I'm just another in a long line of well-meaning but clueless white ladies who tries hard but will never really Get It.
I was. True.
This is the question I wish more "whites" would ask themselves, and ask more often, and explore more deeply.
Well said. I wish more of us would undertake similar tasks with similar commitment
Whatever else, you spent 30 years giving people a chance at something better.
I went to community college, before I went off to a four-year. One thing I like about them is that the students there either really want to be there, or they know they need to be there. And community colleges are much less expensive than other colleges.
Plus the variety of programs available, and ways to attend: you can finish high school by getting your GED; get certification for a vocation; do a college transfer program; and take individual classes, as you like.
Community college is an equalizer, a leveling of the playing field.
And you helped. Well done!
And a better New Year to you all
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Much -- VERY much -- to the consternation of the Trumpistas, The USA is ever more a "mixed race" society ... and that includes public schools ...
"White anxiety" still plays a large role in American society ... but will gradually wither away ...
Was it the feds looking away? I think rather it was the whites moving away and/or signing their kids up for private and religious schools, plus political pressure on local school districts to fund the school choices being made by the anxious white parents.
It all boils down to deep-rooted prejudice and fear of the other.
California was much more diverse than Melbourne, the most diverse city in Australia, at least in the 1980's. For us that has changed now, for the better. Lots of East Asian, African and South Asian migrants, and some too from the ME and Afghanistan. "We are one and we are many." I find it interesting that I distinguish ethnic groups from Asia easily, but I don't think I can do that with African immigrants. I don't know enough.
Sorry, got off track. I am not sure whether we have "white" schools, even by default. Maybe. But Catholic private schools are European plus others, and the same with state schools. I think wealth and poverty is the deciding factor in school attendance here, and that's not really racially defined.
Re Aussie schools and segregation, there are a couple of factors at play:
1. Recent migrants are wealthier than they were in the post-war period, and try to educate their kids in the best schools they can afford.
2. European migrants after the war flourished and are now part of every segment of Australian society.
3. Schools associated with churches and mosques bend over backwards to let kids from their congregation go to their schools, regardless of whether their parents can pay.
4. Most Melbourne suburbs are diverse, as to income and ethnicity, with only a few exceptions. There are certainly richer areas, but moderate and low income housing is threaded throughout them, partly through policy, and partly by private development of higher density housing.
5. For the truly white bread experience, go to a country town, but things are changing there too.
Yes ...
Over time, actual life experience tends to ease one's anxieties ...
My last two decades of parish ministry were mostly "interim" ... When a parish went vacant, the bishop sent me to take care of things until a new pastor could be called, and in about a third to half of situations I cleaned up one or another kind of *mess* ...
Sometimes I was in the inner city, sometimes a suburb, sometimes out in farm country ... Something I have noted throughout my parish work is that EVERY neighborhood everywhere is always a community in transition -- demographically, economically, socially ...
My longest term was twelve years out on the prairie in very rural SW Minnesota, a two point parish of (mostly) Swedish Lutherans ... For years, the people were increasingly desperate as young folks graduated and moved away to school and jobs ... The small towns and small churches struggled to stay viable and there were earnest prayers for PEOPLE to come to them ...
And they came ... Difficult jobs were available in poultry and hog slaughter plants, empty houses were inexpensive, and vacant store fronts were had for little $$$ ...
By the time we left after twelve years fully one fourth of the active members of one of my congregations were SE Asian immigrant refugees -- Buddhists, but too far away from their community, so they came to us to offer prayers, make sacrifices, and have their families guided in ways of mindfulness and peace ... Marty Luther would have been spinning in his grave had he known that we were communing unbaptized Buddhists ... But at that point hospitality overrides theology and pastoral care of souls was job #1 ...
We're all in this together ... for real ...
Baruch ha Shem Adonai Eloheinu ha Melech Olam ...
You'd think so, but the age profile of Trumpers and Brexiters suggests that prejudice has a long half-life.
Cognitive dissonance happens now and then if you're paying attention, and ways of dealing with that experience vary from person to person ...
... and of course generalities are true only generally, and exceptions commonly prove a rule ...
... and, yes, perversity leads some people to embrace their own disadvantage or even doom ...
To Fr Teilhard's point about radical hospitality, my congregation has developed a supportive relationship with the Islamic Prayer Center just three blocks from our church. It started shortly after 9-11 when the Center was targetted by some right-wing radicals. The local clergy association came out in support of the center and our congregation along with others started having fellowship experiences with them (like celebrating Eid--btw, there are a number of lesser Eids). It continued when Lybia cut off its support of the Lybian students who were at the university. We gave them food and housing assistance while the university continued their tuition. Recently, when the Center's building was tagged by a lone vandal some of the people from our congregation went over there to help clean up the graffiti.
Yes
The workforce in academia (and hence the population of most small college towns) is incredibly segregated by class, race, and gender. Try asking yourself why it's so much easier for white academics to form friendships and find commonality with middle-class/wealthy people from other countries, than with working-class people from their own city.
Gramps, you are in the PNW which is historically hostile to black residents - how many American-born black families live in your school district at all?
By the way, I grew up a faculty brat in Chapel Hill - one of the towns featured in the above Atlantic article - so I do know the territory.
Actually if you look at points 2 and 3 in the first article I posted, it's pretty clear that school districts being released from court oversight played a big part in re-segregating formerly integrated schools. And of course, thanks to the Milliken decision in the 1970s, northern school systems never integrated in the first place.
Our school district reports there are 1,742 (71.7%) Whites, 231 (9.5%) Asians/Pacific Islanders, 226 (9.3%) Asians, 225 (9.3%) Hispanics, 154 (6.3%) people with two or more races, 62 (2.6%) Blacks, 14 (0.6%) American Indians/Alaskan Natives and 5 (0.2%) Pacific Islanders. According to the census bureau, there are 1,038 African Americans (2018) in my community compared to 450 and 305 respectively in communities of similar size in the congressional district
Please do not stereotype my community. We are far different from Chapel Hill. I can tell you as far as academia is concerned, though, the number of chairs, administrative officers we have are proportionate to our faculty numbers. We recently lost a well-liked president of the university to cancer who was African American.
How do you know what Chapel Hill—which is in North Carolina, not South Carolina— is like?
FWIW, I do know Chapel Hill. I recognize Antisocial Alto’s description of places like it. And I know lots of people in Chapel Hill, both within the University and outside it, who would describe the community and its schools very much as you have described your community and its schools.
People often see what they want to see.
Sorry about the mislocation of Chapel Hill, I had edited it out while you were entering your reply.
As far as my knowledge of Chapel Hill is concerned, I had a good friend who was a faculty member there and we visited them once. He is now retired. My daughter also considered becoming a student there, which I would have supported (my motto: I don't care where you go to school as long as it is 500 miles from home.)
And I do believe Antisocial Alto made a stereotypical reference to the Pacific Northwest and made the assumption my community is no different.