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Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • stetsonstetson Shipmate

    Crœsos wrote: »

    You mean it might be retaliation propaganda by the regime of the cruelest monster currently heading a nation, Justin Trudeau? Say it ain't so! :wink:

    Heh. Actually, JT's politics are not entirely what his fanbots in the global media make them out to be. Among other things, he is currently pushing through a pipeline that has been denounced as an eco-horrorshow by environementalists, as well as the governor of Washington State. When the Texas-based pipeline company balked at the headache of dealing with the opposition, Trudeau simply bought the project from them.

    And while a prime minister certainly should support the soldiers he has sent overseas, Trudeau's comments on this particular occassion were probably not what his NPR-listening fans south of the border would expect to hear.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    stetson wrote: »
    Eutychus wrote:

    3. In a reproof to western democracies, South Korea actually ousted a corrupt president who was wholly under the influence of a pagan shaman. The new man is a devout catholic committed to working for peace.

    I'm wondering what significance your friend sees in the pagan/Catholic divide. I believe that about half of the Korean population answers "no religion" on the census, so they might not have any strong preference one way or another, as far as a politicans' religion goes.

    I assumed that Eutychus's friend means that God is literally rewarding the South Koreans for their electoral decision.

    Well, I guess I'd still wonder why a liberal theologian would think God cares so much about whether the president is pagan or Catholic. (As opposed to just corrupt or non-corrupt)

    Despite the country's admirable history of avoiding sectarian strife(with several religious tendencies farther apart theologically than Belfast Catholics and Orangemen), Korean protestantism does have a not-entirely-insignificant strain of religious bigotry, with vandalism of Buddhas and other non-Christian artwork being an occassional issue. In my experience, Catholics tend to be a little more mellow about that sort of thing, and in fact generally have no problem performing things like ancestral rites, which even moderate protestants tend to eschew as idolatry.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    And just for clarification, but Park Guen hye wasn't ousted by an election. She was dismissed from office due to her criminal shennanigans, after which an early presidential election was held a few months later. Her party did lose that one, though.
  • stetson wrote: »

    That said, it is true that all the left-wing presidents since the fall of the dictators have been Roman Catholic. I'm not sure if there's any pattern to be gleaned there, or if it's just a coincidence.

    Isn't this just a reflection that Catholic social teaching had left wing expressions in the 20th Century, and it tended to be centered geographically.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    What a win it would be for the Chinese to get US troops out of Sth Korea! I reckon they are willing to trade Kim's nukes for that kind of a result, and I reckon Kim is taking orders from them.

    I'm pretty sure you reckon incorrectly on that count. If North Korea was willing to take orders from China they wouldn't have nuclear weapons or ICBMs in the first place. As I said earlier, China really likes the current Korean status quo compared to any likely alternatives. North Korea having an effective nuclear deterrent against the United States (the first country to develop one since China itself, coincidentally enough) is hugely destabilizing to that status quo, which is why China was more willing than usual to go along with sanctions this time.

    My wife follows Stephen McDonnell, the BBC's China correspondent. He reckons he attended a press conference yesterday at which China announced that the joint military exercises in Korea would end, before Trump announced it in Singapore.

    The truth is that nobody in the West knows the true nature of the relationship between North Korea and China. We can only make guesses from what we observe. I reckon the relationship probably fluctuates, but China must have the whip hand. At the risk of sounding like my favorite flat-earther, just look at the map.

    Does North Korea have an effective deterrent against the United States? I know they say they do, but my little brother used to tell me that all the time. He never did.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    The truth is that nobody in the West knows the true nature of the relationship between North Korea and China. We can only make guesses from what we observe. I reckon the relationship probably fluctuates, but China must have the whip hand. At the risk of sounding like my favorite flat-earther, just look at the map.

    China has not in the past been willing to push the North Koreans too far. Most speculation, mine included, is that they fear pushing too much would collapse the regime, leaving China with a very messy refugee problem and failed state on its border.
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Does North Korea have an effective deterrent against the United States? I know they say they do, but my little brother used to tell me that all the time. He never did.

    They're known to have nuclear weapons. Their latest missile tests indicate they have ICBMs that can reach at least the west coast of the United States. It's something of an open question as to whether or not those ICBMs can reach the United States when loaded with a warhead. Whether or not this constitutes an effective nuclear deterrent depends on how willing the U.S. is willing to gamble on the proposition that the fully-loaded range of North Korean ICBMs is too short to reach the U.S.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »

    That said, it is true that all the left-wing presidents since the fall of the dictators have been Roman Catholic. I'm not sure if there's any pattern to be gleaned there, or if it's just a coincidence.

    Isn't this just a reflection that Catholic social teaching had left wing expressions in the 20th Century, and it tended to be centered geographically.

    Well, the Catholic church did play a signifcant role in the democracy movement of the 1980s, and still continues with progressive stands on various socioeconomic issues. So yeah, there might be something to that, though I don't know to what extent those presidents were influenced by Catholic social teaching, or if their own views just happened to coincidentally dovetail with the church, and luck of the draw just saw the three of them manage to get to the Blue House.




  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    MSNBC--which is admittedly anti Fake King, is reporting that Michael Cohen is changing his team of layers and is preparing to be a cooperating witness with the Mueller investigation. His previous set of lawyers had been paid for by the Trump campaign.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    MSNBC--which is admittedly anti Fake King, is reporting that Michael Cohen is changing his team of layers and is preparing to be a cooperating witness with the Mueller investigation. His previous set of lawyers had been paid for by the Trump campaign.
    AIUI the first part of this statement is fact and the second part is speculation, for now.

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I'd guess he's running out of money. The current lawyers have a legal deadline to meet. And I think they charge premium rates.

    That points towards an increased likelihood that Cohen may be ready to deal, but it's speculation at this stage.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    FYI: Scaramucci and Avenatti were on Stephen Colbert's show together Wed. night. Got a bit heated and rowdy, as Stephen peppered them with questions. But it was also funny, with some good discussion.

    Might be worth a look.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    So apparently the Attorney General of New York has filed a suit alleging that the Trump Foundation is not so much a charity as a criminal conspiracy.
    The New York attorney general filed suit against President Trump and his three eldest children Thursday, alleging “persistently illegal conduct” at the president’s personal charity, saying Trump repeatedly misused the nonprofit organization — to pay off his businesses’ creditors, to decorate one of his golf clubs and to stage a multimillion-dollar giveaway at his 2016 campaign events.

    In the suit, filed Thursday morning, Attorney General Barbara Underwood asked a state judge to dissolve the Donald J. Trump Foundation. She asked that its remaining $1 million in assets be distributed to other charities and that Trump be forced to pay at least $2.8 million in restitution and penalties.

    Underwood said that oversight of spending at Trump’s foundation was so loose that its board of directors hadn’t met in 19 years, and its official treasurer wasn’t even aware that he was on the board.

    Instead, she said, the foundation came to serve the spending needs of Trump — and then, in 2016, the needs of his presidential campaign. She cited emails from Trump campaign staff members, directing which charities should receive gifts from the Trump Foundation, and in what amounts.

    There's a lot more at the link, but if you don't feel like using one of your Washington Post clicks Reuters has a similar, though less detailed, account.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Hmm. Am I right that as these are State charges they aren't presidentially pardonable offences?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    Hmm. Am I right that as these are State charges they aren't presidentially pardonable offences?

    You are indeed correct. They're not offenses that typically involve jail time, however, so a pardon would be overkill. The relief being requested by the state of New York seems to be in the form of dissolving the Trump Foundation, distributing its funds among more legitimate charities, various financial penalties totaling (according to the Post) "at least $2.8 million" to be paid by Trump himself, and banning Donald Trump and the three of his kids who sat on the Foundation's board from serving on the boards of other New York charities for a period of time. (Donald Sr. for ten years, Ivanka, Don Jr, and Eric for one year.)

    The legal filing can be found here, for those who are interested in such things.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Re: Who has been paying Cohen's defense lawyers? It has been the Trump Organization according to ABC News The initial report was Trump has paid $228,000 in April. Now the total bill would be $500,000 or more.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Re T foundation charges:

    AIUI, a reporter I heard on NPR suggested there are federal aspects, too, to the misuse of the foundation.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Re T foundation charges:

    AIUI, a reporter I heard on NPR suggested there are federal aspects, too, to the misuse of the foundation.

    A lot of the allegations seem to be violations of federal election law, like using Foundation funds for election purposes (a big no-no for charities) and coordination with the campaign. These are beyond the ability of a state attorney general to pursue, however.

    In other news, Hillary Clinton won Twitter.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    More...happy...thoughts from DC:
    "White House defends border separations: 'It's biblical to enforce the law'" (Yahoo).

    Wherein we have:

    --Sessions advising that St. Paul said we should follow the law. Hmm...I wonder if he's violated any laws?

    --Conditions in shelters for immigrant children.

    --Sort of T shrine painted on a detention center wall.

    --Allegedly: Kids taken from parents to get a bath, but really taken away. Baby taken away from mother *while breastfeeding*. Etc.

    --Whether Sarah H. Sanders (SHS) has empathy. And she may be resigning.

    "Presented for your consideration." (Where is Rod Serling when we need him?)
  • GK I went and watched that Colbert thing. They were all great mates! It could have been a discussion in a pub. I thought the best bit was when one of them called Trump a narcissist and Scaramucci said something like 'and we three arent?'
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    LOL Yeah, they were great mates. But the conversation was much louder and more energetic than it usually is.

    Tonight (Thurs.), Stephen ripped into Jeff Sessions and the US gov't* about the horror that is child immigrants in detention centers and taken away from their parents. Ordered us to all call our gov't representatives this weekend, and tell them to *do something*! He was at his best.

    Stephen is getting me through this T horror, bless him.

    *This was in the section after the stand-up monologue, where he's at his desk.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Manafort arrested.

    Trump trying to distance himself. Those computers will be interesting to peruse!
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    A quick reminder was that one of the things Paul Manafort influenced Donald Trump to do was pick Mike Pence as his running mate.
  • I first got onto Colbert when his Report was well established. It has taken me a while to adjust to the Tonight Show format, and I usually just watch his monologues. So that pointer was needed GK! I do think that he just thrives in that environment, and my objection is more to watching celebs and other people I have no interest in.

    My wife and I are massive Sam Bee fans.
  • He started the economic policies that started the ultra stupid. He's the guy who thought he served in WW2 because he acted in movies, thought the SS are victims, started the cuts to public service and tax breaks to the rich, welfare to corporations, deceit in the aid of patriotism. Oh and abortion. Because it's all about that Jerry.

    And started the union busting that led to extreme imbalance of economic and political power

  • I get news summaries twice a day from the New York Times and can click on any that are of interest. Each morning they send me a link to the important bits of the late night shows -- almost always Colbert's monologue, among others. As they put it, they stay up late to watch television so that I don't have to.
  • Why am I not hearing an outcry about Trump's trial balloon about condos on DPRK beaches? Interested minds want to know.
  • White House Official Defines the Trump Doctrine: We're America, bitches!.

    Which to my reading looks like a return to 19th century. America unbound, not encumbered by any commitments, beholden to no norms of rightness or wrongness, merely self-interest, believing being combative and obnoxious creates an advantage It doesn't matter what happens to non-Americans except as they benefit America as viewed by this guy, if he has a coherent view. And if he doesn't, the goal is to be merely disruptive because bitch.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    It is very very funny because it is so crazy, Pangolin. I mean, what's the weather like?

    It also pales into insignificance compared to Trump's characterisation of the regime.

    No Prophet, the policy is better described as 'I'm Donald J Trump. You will bow down before me.'
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    I've heard about possible hotels in NK, but not condos. Is he assuming international travelers? I doubt that N. Koreans could afford any of that, considering they're still starving. Except maybe the upper 1% of the 1%.

    Would lots of int'l business people and influencers be able to afford the high cost?
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Would lots of int'l business people and influencers be able to afford the high cost?

    If you don't mind me saying so, you're missing the point. Which is that Trump saw N.Korea and thought the same kind of thoughts that an outfit called 'Peel Holdings' thinks in these parts - 'buy it in distress, sit on it, build on it when the state pumps in redevelopment money, sell at a very large profit'. This isn't so much a post to note that this is how land speculation works, as it is to note that Trump seems to have no other way at all, of looking at anything.

    I'm sure you knew that, and my needing to post it is a mark of my own naivete in finding it remarkable.

  • And that once again, we see that Trump assumes the primary purpose of the office of POTUS is to enrich his personal business holdings
  • Again - he doesn't have a way of not thinking like this.

    It will be a measure of American greatness, the degree to which the institutions and process of state are able to resist him. So far, ISTM that all is not lost, in comparison to Turkey, Russia, Zimbabwe... May God strengthen the forces of Truth and Justice.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    It is good to be in Germany for a couple of weeks. No Trump signs. Little said about the man. Das ist gut That is good
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Melania is speaking up against splitting immigrant kids from their families.

    Yay! You go, girl!
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    That No Prophet link strikes me as pretty much spot on. And makes the post-Brexit UK foreign policy position look even worse.

    Sucking up to Trump? Where's the vomiting emoji?
  • It is manifest destiny, huh, as No Prophet describes it. My feeling is that outlook is instinctive in quite a few Americans.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    It is good to be in Germany for a couple of weeks. No Trump signs.

    Well...
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    No great surprise, but Trump is lying about an ally. Again. This, of course, follows on from appointing an ambassador, who seems to think that it is the duty of an ambassador to interfere in local politics. Again, no great surprise here: Trump's decimation of the experienced diplomatic corps was obviously a forerunner to appointing "diplomats" who do not know how to be diplomatic.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The abiding truth about the Trump administration is that it lies.
  • john holdingjohn holding Host Emeritus
    Here there is growing interest in a boycott of US products, as far as possible. And talk of cancelling trips and vacations that go to or through the US. But I fancy what would hurt Trump most would be another boycott that's being talked of: a boycott of the annual US ambassador's July 4 barbecue and reception. (Only works if you live in a capital city, of course.)

  • Just try and boycott Republicans John. Ben and Jerry are still OK I hope.

    Stetson, I clicked that link knowing the result. Whoops!
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    ...I've been thinking of what might prod the "T has left the building" (alive) process.

    Next time he and a reporter sit down, and discuss T's favorite despots, and how everyone does bad stuff, so it doesn't really matter...the interviewer should:

    a) gently and enthusiastically ask "And what bad stuff have you done? Anything on their level?"

    b) gently and enthusiastically ask "What about WWII? That was quite a thing, eh? Lots of big men who found space in which to prove their worth. Mussolini, Hirohito, [that Austrian with the funny mustache]...what do you think of them, and how do you compare with them?"

    And then just let T talk and talk, revealing whatever thoughts spew out.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    I think the idea for getting rid of Trump I like the best is to subject him to a crushing defeat at the ballot box. An absolute nowhere to go 30% of the popular vote rejection of this lying, vain and corrupt person. Then I'd like to see the organs of state destroy him, his family and the family of his children. Then, once it was clear that he has nothing, materially or spiritually except for a Presidential library and an allowance from the State, I would like what happened to Ariel Sharon to happen to him, except I want him to be conscious.

    I don't think I've communicated that last bit to anyone before, because it is so awful. I'm ashamed to wish that on anybody, and I'm ashamed wishing it on him. But I do wish it on him.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    The abiding truth about the Trump administration is that it lies.

    Who is considering Donald Trump's last resting place:

    "Here lies Donald J Trump"
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I think the idea for getting rid of Trump I like the best is to subject him to a crushing defeat at the ballot box.

    Early days, and pollsters are under a dark cloud these days. but 538 produced this interesting table very recently.

    I hope the mid-terms will become his Waterloo. The awful consequences of the immigration policy are doing some damage (see separate thread) and I suspect there will be more from Mueller before the mid-terms.

    What fascinates me is how much lying he gets away with. "Here lies Donald Trump" is a pretty good living epitaph. All politicians spin of course, but none have been in anything like the same ballpark as the Donald.

  • Just heard the border guard recording about an orchestra of crying hildren.

    And the campaign ad featuring a trumpster dumpster fire.

    And then pondered: which works better as performance art? Crying orchestra of children or the fire?

    Here's a link to a dumpster ad article, from Russian news, of course.

    My vote is with the children because cruelty stirs up more feelings.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I think the idea for getting rid of Trump I like the best is to subject him to a crushing defeat at the ballot box. An absolute nowhere to go 30% of the popular vote rejection of this lying, vain and corrupt person. Then I'd like to see the organs of state destroy him, his family and the family of his children. Then, once it was clear that he has nothing, materially or spiritually except for a Presidential library and an allowance from the State, I would like what happened to Ariel Sharon to happen to him, except I want him to be conscious.

    I don't think I've communicated that last bit to anyone before, because it is so awful. I'm ashamed to wish that on anybody, and I'm ashamed wishing it on him. But I do wish it on him.

    Believe me, you are not alone.

    Jesus Christ, Savior, have mercy on me, a sinner.
  • It may be awful, but it is not a sin to wish that God would visit the exact same end on the person in question that he would do if he were not busy listening to our wishes.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I think the idea for getting rid of Trump I like the best is to subject him to a crushing defeat at the ballot box. An absolute nowhere to go 30% of the popular vote rejection of this lying, vain and corrupt person. Then I'd like to see the organs of state destroy him, his family and the family of his children. Then, once it was clear that he has nothing, materially or spiritually except for a Presidential library and an allowance from the State, I would like what happened to Ariel Sharon to happen to him, except I want him to be conscious.

    I don't think I've communicated that last bit to anyone before, because it is so awful. I'm ashamed to wish that on anybody, and I'm ashamed wishing it on him. But I do wish it on him.

    Believe me, you are not alone.

    Jesus Christ, Savior, have mercy on me, a sinner.

    amen. I don't know why but I'm crying.
  • I was afraid I might actually vomit when I heard the recording of the kids crying and calling out in Spanish (and I am about as unsentimental about kids as humanly possible without being a psycho). But as for the midterms, I wouldn't count any chickens. After all, "37 percent of registered voters believe that the FBI put a spy in Donald Trump’s campaign for president", which is technically correct, IF you classify an FBI counter-intelligence operation trying to catch spies as "spying".

    If the Democrats don't start winning state houses - now that it's obvious the Supreme Court is turning the clock back - there will be no chance of using states' rights to resist the Trump agenda.

    And never forget, if it wasn't for the Electoral College, the GOP could be still be safely occupied investigating Benghazi and Anthony Weiner's wie laptop instead of brutalizing children. Sad!
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