I think we’ll find all sorts of places asking ‘have you been vaccinated?’ Before allowing people to visit, and that will soon reduce the number who refuse.
Actually, I'll probably wait a good while, see what the side effects are, and find out how other people with immune system problems and chronic illnesses react--or if they even take it. I can have reactions to vaccines and medications.
This is called "vaccine hesitancy". Everyone *can* have reactions to the vaccines and medication. None of us should hesitate unless you have an actual diagnosis which prevents being vaccinated. This may not be you, but I'm rather impatient with people who claim experience is the guide to them getting vaccinated, i.e., "I got sick in the past with another vaccine", "I seem to have a sensitive system because <pick ailment to list" etc. Only if you have an actual medical diagnosis and have been firmly recommended not to be vaccinated should anyone wait.
I do support the need for employers and others (say you want to visit a long term care home) requiring proof of vaccination before coming in. I'm reminded of those who said they couldn't wear face masks. There's almost no-one who can't.
I think we’ll find all sorts of places asking ‘have you been vaccinated?’ Before allowing people to visit, and that will soon reduce the number who refuse.
Given concerns about liability, I anticipate that proof of COVID vaccination will be required to fly anywhere by the end of 2021. That alone will probably be a big motivator for a lot of people.
Good gods, between 1/6 and 1/4 of Britains say they won't get the jab and nearly 1/2 of Americans seem that they might not.
If there were more proof needed that we are not an intelligent species, this should be more than enough.
If you were to ask me now "will I get the vaccine" then the answer is "it depends". I've got more research to do before I can answer. It's likely that the answer will be "yes" - I usually get a flu shot, for example - but I haven't done my due diligence yet. I'm not in a priority group, so I'm expecting to be at the back of the queue.
Flu vaccine uptake in adults is a bit under 50%. Covid is more serious than flu, so you'd expect more people to bother. @Gramps49 and @Crœsos point to the driving force for vaccine uptake in children - the fact that schools require it, and they're given routinely when kids go for their routine checkups.
Most adults don't go for a routine checkup, and if nobody is telling them "you need this vaccine to be allowed to do something you want to do", it'll be easy to put it on the back burner.
As an aside, does anyone know when the trials in children will start?
Work (NHS) push them hard, both for avoiding staff getting flu, and as I believe there is some money available for passing something like 70% vaccination rate.
Good gods, between 1/6 and 1/4 of Britains say they won't get the jab and nearly 1/2 of Americans seem that they might not.
If there were more proof needed that we are not an intelligent species, this should be more than enough.
If you were to ask me now "will I get the vaccine" then the answer is "it depends". I've got more research to do before I can answer.
Seriously? How are you qualified to do research on this topic?
FYI: I have a longgg list of diagnoses. I've had problems with some vaccines. I used to get the yearly flu vaccine, except I got a full set of flu symptoms, full on, after each one. For me, getting almost-flu from the vaccine was as bad as getting the real thing. So I stopped getting the flu vaccine. My doctors are aware of this. Also aware that, with any medication, I need to start with the lowest possible dose (e.g., start with children's dose, or a special dose). Sometimes, I'll still have to go back to nothing, then try again. And I tend to get some of the rarer (but not life-threatening) reactions.
I'm being very, very good about following the rules (mask, non-surgical gloves, social distancing). I'm alone. I only go out very rarely. For the past 6 months or so, I haven't been further then maybe 5 blocks from my home--except for 1 appointment.
My doctor and I talked through Covid strategies a few months ago. I wasn't to get tested at that time, because I would have to wait with a lot of other people, and might well catch Covid or something else. (I tend to catch whatever's going around, whenever I go out. Long before Covid.) And, given that my long-running assortment of symptoms overlaps with many Covid symptoms, I'm not to worry myself about whether I've got Covid, *unless* I have severe breathing problems. Other people are doing similarly.
tl;dr: There are legit reasons to wait to get the vaccine. My doctors are aware. Now, if the Pharma Companies That Be would just come up with something like the oral polio vaccine--the pink one, that has to be refrigerated. I've had that maybe three times in my life, and always liked it.
I've a friend with an immune system disorder who has been advised to not get the flu vaccine. I would expect them to ask their doctor about the Coronavirus vaccine. But that is hardly "research", just normal precaution.
People who have health problems sometimes research (online or wherever else they can) their problems, whether a particular thing is known to help or harm, how other people are dealing with it, etc. Sometimes, a doc isn't familiar with a particular thing, or doesn't *listen*, or doesn't have enough info to make a definite recommendation, or forgets you have particular contraindications. My docs know I look things up, and most encourage that. They'll say "ok, I think this medication/treatment might be a good fit; here are the details, and please let me know what you think".
IME, it's often referred to as "research". Maybe this is more of an American thing?
Good gods, between 1/6 and 1/4 of Britains say they won't get the jab and nearly 1/2 of Americans seem that they might not.
If there were more proof needed that we are not an intelligent species, this should be more than enough.
If you were to ask me now "will I get the vaccine" then the answer is "it depends". I've got more research to do before I can answer. It's likely that the answer will be "yes" - I usually get a flu shot, for example - but I haven't done my due diligence yet. I'm not in a priority group, so I'm expecting to be at the back of the queue.
Flu vaccine uptake in adults is a bit under 50%. Covid is more serious than flu, so you'd expect more people to bother. @Gramps49 and @Crœsos point to the driving force for vaccine uptake in children - the fact that schools require it, and they're given routinely when kids go for their routine checkups.
Most adults don't go for a routine checkup, and if nobody is telling them "you need this vaccine to be allowed to do something you want to do", it'll be easy to put it on the back burner.
As an aside, does anyone know when the trials in children will start?
Pfizer has been enrolling under-eighteens for at least a month, though I only know about it because they asked me to sign a revised consent form that acknowledged the addition to the study population. I don't know how young they go,
FYI: I have a longgg list of diagnoses. I've had problems with some vaccines. I used to get the yearly flu vaccine, except I got a full set of flu symptoms, full on, after each one. For me, getting almost-flu from the vaccine was as bad as getting the real thing. So I stopped getting the flu vaccine. My doctors are aware of this. Also aware that, with any medication, I need to start with the lowest possible dose (e.g., start with children's dose, or a special dose). Sometimes, I'll still have to go back to nothing, then try again. And I tend to get some of the rarer (but not life-threatening) reactions.
I'm being very, very good about following the rules (mask, non-surgical gloves, social distancing). I'm alone. I only go out very rarely. For the past 6 months or so, I haven't been further then maybe 5 blocks from my home--except for 1 appointment.
My doctor and I talked through Covid strategies a few months ago. I wasn't to get tested at that time, because I would have to wait with a lot of other people, and might well catch Covid or something else. (I tend to catch whatever's going around, whenever I go out. Long before Covid.) And, given that my long-running assortment of symptoms overlaps with many Covid symptoms, I'm not to worry myself about whether I've got Covid, *unless* I have severe breathing problems. Other people are doing similarly.
tl;dr: There are legit reasons to wait to get the vaccine. My doctors are aware. Now, if the Pharma Companies That Be would just come up with something like the oral polio vaccine--the pink one, that has to be refrigerated. I've had that maybe three times in my life, and always liked it.
I don't want to go too far into personal medical issues. However, will note two things. One is the that I continue to consult in health policy while mostly retired. The second is that frequently when people report symptoms of the very disease a vaccine is designed to prevent, they actually have mild symptoms of the disease, rarely even moderate levels, even though they find their responses to the vaccine to be quite intense. Flu can last several months and is potentially life threatening. Covid vaccines are based on entirely different technology than flu vaccines. We suspect that health policies in many places will exclude the non-vaccinated from many things, regardless of claimed or documented medical exemptions, for a year or two. The data on antibody treatment are not systematic presently.
People who have health problems sometimes research (online or wherever else they can) their problems, whether a particular thing is known to help or harm, how other people are dealing with it, etc. Sometimes, a doc isn't familiar with a particular thing, or doesn't *listen*, or doesn't have enough info to make a definite recommendation, or forgets you have particular contraindications. My docs know I look things up, and most encourage that. They'll say "ok, I think this medication/treatment might be a good fit; here are the details, and please let me know what you think".
IME, it's often referred to as "research". Maybe this is more of an American thing?
LC is a Brit living in America.
I take no medication without talking extensively to my doctors and pharmacist. And typically a bit of reading.
His statement read to me as being a vaccine shy excuse and I am mighty tired of that rubbish. However, that might have been incorrect.
As I said before, the initial takers are guinea pigs, but we need guinea pigs for the benefit of society. I am taking the jab as soon as offered. It is a risk, all medicine are a risk, but we cannot all wait.
LC is a Brit living in America.
I take no medication without talking extensively to my doctors and pharmacist. And typically a bit of reading.
His statement read to me as being a vaccine shy excuse and I am mighty tired of that rubbish. However, that might have been incorrect.
Well, let me expand a little, then.
There is more or less nothing that I do without research. We all know what proper prior planning prevents. I don't expect that a Covid vaccine will be reasonably available to me (I'm not old, I don't have health complications, and my job doesn't require me to have close contact with large numbers of people) until Easter, which sets the timescale by which I need to complete my due diligence.
If you had also quoted the next sentence from my post, you'd have included the point where I usually get the 'flu vaccine, which I would have thought would be sufficient to clue you in to my general attitude towards vaccines, but apparently not. My strong expectation is that, when I have done my due diligence, I will be happy that all of the major vaccines are both safe and sensible to take. I have not yet done that.
So I will read extensively about the vaccine trials, and I'll refresh my understanding of how the different vaccines work. I've never met my current doctor (my previous one moved away, and I haven't been since) so I don't know how strong their background is, so I don't know whether discussing the vaccine with them would be useful or not. Again, my strong expectation is that when I've finished my reading, I'll be happy, without needing to consult my doctor. But we'll see. (And because of the timescale involved, this isn't close to the top of my priority list at the moment.)
But, until we get enough people vaccinated restrictions on socialising will continue - because the alternative of everyone carrying evidence of vaccination before booking a meal out or space in a pub will be impractical.
It doesn't seem that impractical to just give everyone a receipt once they've been vaccinated, or to have a doorman checking said receipts when people seek admittance to a restaurant/pub.
My strong expectation is that, when I have done my due diligence, I will be happy that all of the major vaccines are both safe and sensible to take. I have not yet done that.
Apologies for assuming you are anti-vax.
However, we cannot all wait, not beyond were we are in line. We the healthy owe it to our communities to take the risks to develop the data.
The waiting is for:
1. manufacturers to report their data from their tens of thousands of volunteers
2. the data to be reviewed by regulators
3. approval by regulators
The only rational review by individuals is about whether the regulators have done their review properly. The regulator for Canada is Heath Canada. They're trusted.
I do BTW have a card certifying that I've had the flu vaccine this year. I don't need to prove to an employer that I've had it. But they give them out when you get one. Free for all people here, all ages and stages.
But, until we get enough people vaccinated restrictions on socialising will continue - because the alternative of everyone carrying evidence of vaccination before booking a meal out or space in a pub will be impractical.
It doesn't seem that impractical to just give everyone a receipt once they've been vaccinated, or to have a doorman checking said receipts when people seek admittance to a restaurant/pub.
Yep.
The yellow fever vaccination ‘receipt’ works like that for entering some countries.
The impractical part is how to demonstrate your vaccination status (and, that of all you'll be with) when making a dinner reservation - there'll still be an extended period of time while hospitality will be working on a reduced basis, and reserving a spot is likely to be advised. And, this would mean most hospitality will be shut until the summer, or working at a loss, because it'll be then before everyone has a chance at getting the vaccine ... do those who are far enough down the queue have to see others go to the pub knowing they won't get in through no fault of their own?
Or, when you get there and are settling down to have your night out and someone arrives late without the relevant bit of paper? Do you enjoy your evening short of one person as they go home alone, or go home with them? We're not used to having to carry id or anything else for going about our everyday life, and it's going to be something regularly forgotten. That's even without considering whether anyone will seek to produce counterfeit versions, who will pay for such cards produced so that they're not easily copied?
People will cheat and lie. Especially in America where there will be no uniform standard of indication and the states which most need it will refuse to have any sort of mandated certification
1. A phone app. It works great for all the health workers here. They have a QR code which is read. Similar to a phone used as an air travel boarding pass.
2. It'd be easy to use health cards here. They look like credit cards and we get sent yearly renewal stickers to put on them. They could be IR or QR readable. Similar are subway and transit cards and stickers.
3. A physical card with a QR or IR code.
4. You get curbside pick-up of whatever if you don't have your card or phone.
Those who say that it is unfair or what if you forget your card, well, people remember their other cards, like bank, credit, driving licence, and they also are glued to their phones. So it's not going to be difficult, except we won't do it because stupid ideas that rights and freedom supersede safety and not being a turkey.
Thanks for your lovely opinion of America. I think we've heard it before.
It is merely a reasoned evaluation.
The fact that states set there own policies in this means that there will be no uniform applications. You disagree with this?
People lied about medical exemptions for masks, do you dispute this?
The states which have resisted mandates have the highest rates of infection, do you disagree here?
I have a good opinion of America, I've spent much time there. But it is not perfect.
The UK will have it's own issues, but the relatively uniform policies should help. Provided they're got right. Which, with the current government, is no guarantee.
Point of clarification, in my last comment where I first referred to colleges and universities requiring proof of vaccination, I did mention "schools," but I was referring to institutions of higher learning.
As yet there is no data on the safety, effectiveness, or proper dosing on people younger than 18. Pfizer is just beginning to study that population.
Late breaking news: Doctor Scott Allen, Trump's discredited advisor to the US Coronavirus task force, has resigned. Recently, he encouraged people to rise up against the Minnesota governor's Covid restrictions and questioning the use of masks.
People will cheat and lie. Especially in America ...
You stated that America is going to be "especially" full of liars and cheats. That was not "a reasoned evaluation," it was the opening salvo to a pond war.
If you had had any intention of merely addressing the issue of multiple policies, you might have said:
People will cheat and lie. I am especially concerned for countries where there are different policy-making areas, where ....
Or if you absolutely couldn't manage that much politesse, you could have said:
People will cheat and lie. I am especially concerned for countries like America, where...
which would at least have had the virtue of suggesting that there might be more than one federated nation in the world (looking at you, UK) where regional differences might result in some difficulty.
You did none of that. And it's odd how often you accidentally manage to say the most amazingly offensive things on the subject of America, when you are being the voice of sweet reason.
Late breaking news: Doctor Scott Allen, Trump's discredited advisor to the US Coronavirus task force, has resigned. Recently, he encouraged people to rise up against the Minnesota governor's Covid restrictions and questioning the use of masks.
Resigning sounds like the best thing he could have done,
People will cheat and lie. Especially in America ...
You stated that America is going to be "especially" full of liars and cheats. That was not "a reasoned evaluation," it was the opening salvo to a pond war.
If you had had any intention of merely addressing the issue of multiple policies, you might have said:
People will cheat and lie. I am especially concerned for countries where there are different policy-making areas, where ....
Or if you absolutely couldn't manage that much politesse, you could have said:
People will cheat and lie. I am especially concerned for countries like America, where...
which would at least have had the virtue of suggesting that there might be more than one federated nation in the world (looking at you, UK) where regional differences might result in some difficulty.
You did none of that. And it's odd how often you accidentally manage to say the most amazingly offensive things on the subject of America, when you are being the voice of sweet reason.
It might be better to say that the political discourse in the US lends itself to large amounts of wilful defiance of public health measures and an unwillingness to enforce them. That defiance may take the form of lying or cheating with regard to testing or vaccination but it's incidental rather than causative.
(There are already two QR codes needed when flying anywhere at the moment. This will just become a third. I find keeping them in Apple Wallet the easiest way. You don’t even need to open your phone).
There certainly should be an alternative to a phone app, because if it's a phone app it'll exclude a large number of people - disproportionately the poor - who don't have a suitable phone. I can't use the tracking app because my phone doesn't support it. Not everyone sees the need to upgrade their phone every year, yet government issued apps generally assume people do and require the latest versions of OSs.
A friend needed to access Universal Credit a couple of years back after an accident left him with a broken leg and out of work, and unable to get into the job centre to sign on. He found he couldn't because the system to verify his identity needed a newer phone than the one he had ... but I bet that if UC claimants were spending lots of money on new phones (even if they had that money) Mail readers would be in uproar over scroungers claiming benefit when they can afford a new phone. Though, that's quite possibly a design feature, make it impossible for those who need benefits to actually obtain them would be consistent with Conservative Party policies, a hostile environment for benefit claimants.
I can’t see it being a government thing. I think individual businesses will ask for it - and a QR code printed on a piece of paper works as well as it does on a phone.
I would keep a paper copy in case of running out of battery etc, as I do when flying.
People will cheat and lie. Especially in America where there will be no uniform standard of indication and the states which most need it will refuse to have any sort of mandated certification
Host hat on @lilbuddha there is no way this post can avoid being taken as Pond War language, and in light of a similar issue less than a month ago, something you should have been careful to avoid.
Others have pointed out perfectly reasonable ways in which the point you say you were trying to make could have been put across without the anti-American implication of what you actually said, which was then reinforced by this subsequent post. Host hat off
BroJames, Purgatory Host
I think we’ll find all sorts of places asking ‘have you been vaccinated?’ Before allowing people to visit, and that will soon reduce the number who refuse.
Given concerns about liability, I anticipate that proof of COVID vaccination will be required to fly anywhere by the end of 2021. That alone will probably be a big motivator for a lot of people.
Qantas has announced it will want proof of vaccination. There was predictable outrage in some quarters.
But it's also been pointed out here, similar to a remark above, that Australia already has requirements to prove a vaccination against yellow fever if you've been to certain parts of the world. If anything, a requirement to prove coronavirus vaccination for going/returning from anywhere will be simpler to administer.
The impractical part is how to demonstrate your vaccination status (and, that of all you'll be with) when making a dinner reservation - there'll still be an extended period of time while hospitality will be working on a reduced basis, and reserving a spot is likely to be advised.
Why would someone make a reservation in the sure knowledge that they would be refused entry when they got there? And even if some people would do so out of vain hope or mischief, requiring a small deposit on booking would help to both prevent them doing so and compensate the venue for the empty table.
And, this would mean most hospitality will be shut until the summer, or working at a loss, because it'll be then before everyone has a chance at getting the vaccine ... do those who are far enough down the queue have to see others go to the pub knowing they won't get in through no fault of their own?
Why not? Surely it's better for some to be able to go and others not than for everyone to be barred?
Or, when you get there and are settling down to have your night out and someone arrives late without the relevant bit of paper? Do you enjoy your evening short of one person as they go home alone, or go home with them? We're not used to having to carry id or anything else for going about our everyday life, and it's going to be something regularly forgotten.
I'm no longer young, but I can still remember several nights as a teenager when exactly that sort of thing happened because one of my friends (or even I) had forgotten their ID. The universal solution was for them to make a mad dash home to pick it up in the hope that they wouldn't miss too much of the evening.
That's even without considering whether anyone will seek to produce counterfeit versions, who will pay for such cards produced so that they're not easily copied?
It's not beyond the wit of humanity to print a unique barcode for each vaccinated person onto a card or piece of paper (or even in an image sent to their phone) that can be scanned by a doorman. Any fakes wouldn't match to the central database and so would return an error. This is technology that the various online ticketing companies have been using for years.
Late breaking news: Doctor Scott Allen, Trump's discredited advisor to the US Coronavirus task force, has resigned. Recently, he encouraged people to rise up against the Minnesota governor's Covid restrictions and questioning the use of masks.
This is technology that the various online ticketing companies have been using for years.
The only online ticketing I've used have been for air travel (so, there's also a passport to prove id - but I admit the old paper boarding passes can be replaced by a pdf version that can be displayed on the phone, though I still print them out in case of phone failure) or for cinema, other events or train tickets which involve turning up at a machine, inserting the credit card I paid with and the booking reference I was given and then having paper tickets dispensed. These all involve some additional id other than just the information sent electronically - passport or credit card used to book. Are there any electronic booking systems that don't require proof that you are the person who booked when you get to the venue?
I'll accept that a piece of paper (or electronic equivalent for those willing and able to use their phones for this purpose) would work in conjunction with other id, or else the "proof of vaccination" card would also need to serve as id on it's own - so be tamper proof with a recent photo. It will create a bit of extra employment, having people at doors to check id when you get to the pub and more jobs is never going to be a problem.
We've routinely used QR codes for entry to sporting events, concerts, entry to venues. They are displayed on paper but much more frequently on a cell phone. It is possible for one cell phone to scroll sequentially through a series of these for multiple people. We've also had the experience of pre-registration for events with name and password or number being used when it's smaller or you're known to the people.
Are there any electronic booking systems that don't require proof that you are the person who booked when you get to the venue?
Yes. In this country at least, tickets to sporting events and concerts, to name two. Your ticket contains a barcode. When it is scanned, the system checks the database to make sure (a) that's a valid barcode, and (b) nobody else has used it yet. If both checks succeed, they let you in.
I think letting people go to the whatever on proof of immunity is a fabulous idea, even though it means I'll be left out of a lot of it till what, mid-summer? My immediate circle of family and friends is almost all immune due to COVID suffering or to trial vaccination. But knowing they won't die is a small price to pay for having to stay home when they're out at a bar...
yeah, I figured I'd waffled on long enough on other places of the Ship about that--
We're virtually certain about Mr Lamb due to the fact that the vaccination basically took him out for a weekend (the second shot--the first was more like a sore arm and crankiness). The second was a fever, aches, and being stuck in bed--and Mr. Lamb NEVER goes to bed even when he ought, so this was phenomenal. Still a helluva lot better than being on a respirator.
Me, I had zip zero nada as far as a reaction, not even a faintly sore arm--not on either shot. And I always have a sore arm, even for flu shots, tetanus, you name it. So while I'm glad to help the sciencey people, I'll be off to get the real shot as soon as they become available.
(There was a fascinating article, I can't recall where, on the frustration that various COVID and non-COVID trial arrangers have with this particular symptom alerting trial participants to their status. Some trials choose to mask it by making the placebo a different vaccine (say, a pneumonia shot), which then produces the common sore arm, etc. But neither Moderna nor Pfizer chose to do this--they went with saline.)
So while we must admit the faint possibility that we could be wrong about our respective statuses, I don't think so. (Plus the fact that Mr. Lamb has been out and about the community since the pandemic started, taking people to the hospital and etc. He really should have caught it by now.)
I think letting people go to the whatever on proof of immunity is a fabulous idea, even though it means I'll be left out of a lot of it till what, mid-summer? My immediate circle of family and friends is almost all immune due to COVID suffering or to trial vaccination. But knowing they won't die is a small price to pay for having to stay home when they're out at a bar...
So while we must admit the faint possibility that we could be wrong about our respective statuses, I don't think so. (Plus the fact that Mr. Lamb has been out and about the community since the pandemic started, taking people to the hospital and etc. He really should have caught it by now.)
That was one of the big concerns when the trials were first designed; the worry that COVID-19 mitigation measures would be effective so the disease wouldn't be prevalent enough to create a distinction between those who'd received the vaccine and were thus immune and those in the control group who simply didn't get exposed to the disease. "Luckily" the virus is out of control in the U.S. so the results are clearer.
Comments
This is called "vaccine hesitancy". Everyone *can* have reactions to the vaccines and medication. None of us should hesitate unless you have an actual diagnosis which prevents being vaccinated. This may not be you, but I'm rather impatient with people who claim experience is the guide to them getting vaccinated, i.e., "I got sick in the past with another vaccine", "I seem to have a sensitive system because <pick ailment to list" etc. Only if you have an actual medical diagnosis and have been firmly recommended not to be vaccinated should anyone wait.
I do support the need for employers and others (say you want to visit a long term care home) requiring proof of vaccination before coming in. I'm reminded of those who said they couldn't wear face masks. There's almost no-one who can't.
Given concerns about liability, I anticipate that proof of COVID vaccination will be required to fly anywhere by the end of 2021. That alone will probably be a big motivator for a lot of people.
If you were to ask me now "will I get the vaccine" then the answer is "it depends". I've got more research to do before I can answer. It's likely that the answer will be "yes" - I usually get a flu shot, for example - but I haven't done my due diligence yet. I'm not in a priority group, so I'm expecting to be at the back of the queue.
Flu vaccine uptake in adults is a bit under 50%. Covid is more serious than flu, so you'd expect more people to bother. @Gramps49 and @Crœsos point to the driving force for vaccine uptake in children - the fact that schools require it, and they're given routinely when kids go for their routine checkups.
Most adults don't go for a routine checkup, and if nobody is telling them "you need this vaccine to be allowed to do something you want to do", it'll be easy to put it on the back burner.
As an aside, does anyone know when the trials in children will start?
FYI: I have a longgg list of diagnoses. I've had problems with some vaccines. I used to get the yearly flu vaccine, except I got a full set of flu symptoms, full on, after each one. For me, getting almost-flu from the vaccine was as bad as getting the real thing. So I stopped getting the flu vaccine. My doctors are aware of this. Also aware that, with any medication, I need to start with the lowest possible dose (e.g., start with children's dose, or a special dose). Sometimes, I'll still have to go back to nothing, then try again. And I tend to get some of the rarer (but not life-threatening) reactions.
I'm being very, very good about following the rules (mask, non-surgical gloves, social distancing). I'm alone. I only go out very rarely. For the past 6 months or so, I haven't been further then maybe 5 blocks from my home--except for 1 appointment.
My doctor and I talked through Covid strategies a few months ago. I wasn't to get tested at that time, because I would have to wait with a lot of other people, and might well catch Covid or something else. (I tend to catch whatever's going around, whenever I go out. Long before Covid.) And, given that my long-running assortment of symptoms overlaps with many Covid symptoms, I'm not to worry myself about whether I've got Covid, *unless* I have severe breathing problems. Other people are doing similarly.
tl;dr: There are legit reasons to wait to get the vaccine. My doctors are aware. Now, if the Pharma Companies That Be would just come up with something like the oral polio vaccine--the pink one, that has to be refrigerated. I've had that maybe three times in my life, and always liked it.
People who have health problems sometimes research (online or wherever else they can) their problems, whether a particular thing is known to help or harm, how other people are dealing with it, etc. Sometimes, a doc isn't familiar with a particular thing, or doesn't *listen*, or doesn't have enough info to make a definite recommendation, or forgets you have particular contraindications. My docs know I look things up, and most encourage that. They'll say "ok, I think this medication/treatment might be a good fit; here are the details, and please let me know what you think".
IME, it's often referred to as "research". Maybe this is more of an American thing?
Pfizer has been enrolling under-eighteens for at least a month, though I only know about it because they asked me to sign a revised consent form that acknowledged the addition to the study population. I don't know how young they go,
Some work is being done on an anti-body jab for people who can’t have the vaccine: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55022288
I take no medication without talking extensively to my doctors and pharmacist. And typically a bit of reading.
His statement read to me as being a vaccine shy excuse and I am mighty tired of that rubbish. However, that might have been incorrect.
As I said before, the initial takers are guinea pigs, but we need guinea pigs for the benefit of society. I am taking the jab as soon as offered. It is a risk, all medicine are a risk, but we cannot all wait.
Well, let me expand a little, then.
There is more or less nothing that I do without research. We all know what proper prior planning prevents. I don't expect that a Covid vaccine will be reasonably available to me (I'm not old, I don't have health complications, and my job doesn't require me to have close contact with large numbers of people) until Easter, which sets the timescale by which I need to complete my due diligence.
If you had also quoted the next sentence from my post, you'd have included the point where I usually get the 'flu vaccine, which I would have thought would be sufficient to clue you in to my general attitude towards vaccines, but apparently not. My strong expectation is that, when I have done my due diligence, I will be happy that all of the major vaccines are both safe and sensible to take. I have not yet done that.
So I will read extensively about the vaccine trials, and I'll refresh my understanding of how the different vaccines work. I've never met my current doctor (my previous one moved away, and I haven't been since) so I don't know how strong their background is, so I don't know whether discussing the vaccine with them would be useful or not. Again, my strong expectation is that when I've finished my reading, I'll be happy, without needing to consult my doctor. But we'll see. (And because of the timescale involved, this isn't close to the top of my priority list at the moment.)
It doesn't seem that impractical to just give everyone a receipt once they've been vaccinated, or to have a doorman checking said receipts when people seek admittance to a restaurant/pub.
However, we cannot all wait, not beyond were we are in line. We the healthy owe it to our communities to take the risks to develop the data.
1. manufacturers to report their data from their tens of thousands of volunteers
2. the data to be reviewed by regulators
3. approval by regulators
The only rational review by individuals is about whether the regulators have done their review properly. The regulator for Canada is Heath Canada. They're trusted.
I do BTW have a card certifying that I've had the flu vaccine this year. I don't need to prove to an employer that I've had it. But they give them out when you get one. Free for all people here, all ages and stages.
Yep.
The yellow fever vaccination ‘receipt’ works like that for entering some countries.
Or, when you get there and are settling down to have your night out and someone arrives late without the relevant bit of paper? Do you enjoy your evening short of one person as they go home alone, or go home with them? We're not used to having to carry id or anything else for going about our everyday life, and it's going to be something regularly forgotten. That's even without considering whether anyone will seek to produce counterfeit versions, who will pay for such cards produced so that they're not easily copied?
1. A phone app. It works great for all the health workers here. They have a QR code which is read. Similar to a phone used as an air travel boarding pass.
2. It'd be easy to use health cards here. They look like credit cards and we get sent yearly renewal stickers to put on them. They could be IR or QR readable. Similar are subway and transit cards and stickers.
3. A physical card with a QR or IR code.
4. You get curbside pick-up of whatever if you don't have your card or phone.
Those who say that it is unfair or what if you forget your card, well, people remember their other cards, like bank, credit, driving licence, and they also are glued to their phones. So it's not going to be difficult, except we won't do it because stupid ideas that rights and freedom supersede safety and not being a turkey.
The fact that states set there own policies in this means that there will be no uniform applications. You disagree with this?
People lied about medical exemptions for masks, do you dispute this?
The states which have resisted mandates have the highest rates of infection, do you disagree here?
I have a good opinion of America, I've spent much time there. But it is not perfect.
The UK will have it's own issues, but the relatively uniform policies should help. Provided they're got right. Which, with the current government, is no guarantee.
As yet there is no data on the safety, effectiveness, or proper dosing on people younger than 18. Pfizer is just beginning to study that population.
Meanwhile, does anyone know how the Spanish flu morphed into the roaring 20s?
Fuck that.
You wrote:
You stated that America is going to be "especially" full of liars and cheats. That was not "a reasoned evaluation," it was the opening salvo to a pond war.
If you had had any intention of merely addressing the issue of multiple policies, you might have said:
Or if you absolutely couldn't manage that much politesse, you could have said:
which would at least have had the virtue of suggesting that there might be more than one federated nation in the world (looking at you, UK) where regional differences might result in some difficulty.
You did none of that. And it's odd how often you accidentally manage to say the most amazingly offensive things on the subject of America, when you are being the voice of sweet reason.
Resigning sounds like the best thing he could have done,
It might be better to say that the political discourse in the US lends itself to large amounts of wilful defiance of public health measures and an unwillingness to enforce them. That defiance may take the form of lying or cheating with regard to testing or vaccination but it's incidental rather than causative.
Then people will use those services where they feel safe. The others will soon follow.
As long as it's available on a card. There are people who don't have smartphones..... (and indeed who don't want them either).
A friend needed to access Universal Credit a couple of years back after an accident left him with a broken leg and out of work, and unable to get into the job centre to sign on. He found he couldn't because the system to verify his identity needed a newer phone than the one he had ... but I bet that if UC claimants were spending lots of money on new phones (even if they had that money) Mail readers would be in uproar over scroungers claiming benefit when they can afford a new phone. Though, that's quite possibly a design feature, make it impossible for those who need benefits to actually obtain them would be consistent with Conservative Party policies, a hostile environment for benefit claimants.
I would keep a paper copy in case of running out of battery etc, as I do when flying.
Host hat on
@lilbuddha there is no way this post can avoid being taken as Pond War language, and in light of a similar issue less than a month ago, something you should have been careful to avoid.
Others have pointed out perfectly reasonable ways in which the point you say you were trying to make could have been put across without the anti-American implication of what you actually said, which was then reinforced by this subsequent post.
Host hat off
BroJames, Purgatory Host
Qantas has announced it will want proof of vaccination. There was predictable outrage in some quarters.
But it's also been pointed out here, similar to a remark above, that Australia already has requirements to prove a vaccination against yellow fever if you've been to certain parts of the world. If anything, a requirement to prove coronavirus vaccination for going/returning from anywhere will be simpler to administer.
Why would someone make a reservation in the sure knowledge that they would be refused entry when they got there? And even if some people would do so out of vain hope or mischief, requiring a small deposit on booking would help to both prevent them doing so and compensate the venue for the empty table.
Why not? Surely it's better for some to be able to go and others not than for everyone to be barred?
I'm no longer young, but I can still remember several nights as a teenager when exactly that sort of thing happened because one of my friends (or even I) had forgotten their ID. The universal solution was for them to make a mad dash home to pick it up in the hope that they wouldn't miss too much of the evening.
It's not beyond the wit of humanity to print a unique barcode for each vaccinated person onto a card or piece of paper (or even in an image sent to their phone) that can be scanned by a doorman. Any fakes wouldn't match to the central database and so would return an error. This is technology that the various online ticketing companies have been using for years.
The resigning doctor is Scott Atlas and he encouraged the people of Michigan to "rise up" against Governor Whitmer's COVID restrictions (a domestic terror cell had recently been arrested for plotting to kidnap and/or assassinate her), but other than that your post is accurate.
Scott Atlas was the public face of surrender to COVID, leading to a lot of "Atlas shrugged" headlines and jokes. He will not be missed.
I'll accept that a piece of paper (or electronic equivalent for those willing and able to use their phones for this purpose) would work in conjunction with other id, or else the "proof of vaccination" card would also need to serve as id on it's own - so be tamper proof with a recent photo. It will create a bit of extra employment, having people at doors to check id when you get to the pub and more jobs is never going to be a problem.
Yes. In this country at least, tickets to sporting events and concerts, to name two. Your ticket contains a barcode. When it is scanned, the system checks the database to make sure (a) that's a valid barcode, and (b) nobody else has used it yet. If both checks succeed, they let you in.
Assuming that they're not in the control group of the trial.
We're virtually certain about Mr Lamb due to the fact that the vaccination basically took him out for a weekend (the second shot--the first was more like a sore arm and crankiness). The second was a fever, aches, and being stuck in bed--and Mr. Lamb NEVER goes to bed even when he ought, so this was phenomenal. Still a helluva lot better than being on a respirator.
Me, I had zip zero nada as far as a reaction, not even a faintly sore arm--not on either shot. And I always have a sore arm, even for flu shots, tetanus, you name it. So while I'm glad to help the sciencey people, I'll be off to get the real shot as soon as they become available.
(There was a fascinating article, I can't recall where, on the frustration that various COVID and non-COVID trial arrangers have with this particular symptom alerting trial participants to their status. Some trials choose to mask it by making the placebo a different vaccine (say, a pneumonia shot), which then produces the common sore arm, etc. But neither Moderna nor Pfizer chose to do this--they went with saline.)
So while we must admit the faint possibility that we could be wrong about our respective statuses, I don't think so. (Plus the fact that Mr. Lamb has been out and about the community since the pandemic started, taking people to the hospital and etc. He really should have caught it by now.)
That was one of the big concerns when the trials were first designed; the worry that COVID-19 mitigation measures would be effective so the disease wouldn't be prevalent enough to create a distinction between those who'd received the vaccine and were thus immune and those in the control group who simply didn't get exposed to the disease. "Luckily" the virus is out of control in the U.S. so the results are clearer.