Please see Styx thread on the Registered Shipmates consultation for the main discussion forums - your views are important, continues until April 4th.

Purgatory : how would you feel about a sermon on Climate Change on Ash Wednesday?

FloRossFloRoss Shipmate Posts: 20
edited April 2021 in Limbo
For the last 2 years, my place of worship has had a wonderful Ash Wednesday service, with the imposition of ashes. It was spiritual and intimate, and very moving. This year it included a sermon on Climate Change. I'm not a CC denier, but it felt horribly out of place. The Lent series of discussions will be using a booklet 'suitable for adults, young adults and children', on CC. So I'll be missing that.
Oh yes, a few weeks back we had a whole sermon on Safeguarding.
A new leader has started, and it seems this is the result.
I just feel so alienated from the place I loved.
«1345

Comments

  • That's no good FloRoss. I'm Catholic and so I want the focus to be on Easter, sin and redemption. Its about preparation for Good Friday, and then the release of Easter Sunday.
  • I think it depends on how it is presented. I see a large part of climate change as the result of the sin of greed and our own failure to be good stewards of God's gifts to us. Confessing that sin and moving ahead from it is important in the right context, but I am not sure if this is it. We seem to be a long way from the moment of redemption on that one.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I think it depends on how it is presented. I see a large part of climate change as the result of the sin of greed and our own failure to be good stewards of God's gifts to us. Confessing that sin and moving ahead from it is important in the right context, but I am not sure if this is it. We seem to be a long way from the moment of redemption on that one.

    Good points

    It is hard to speak about any sermon without having the original source.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Our church doesn't follow a full liturgical pattern (anything but!) but I made my first sermon of the year, usually a keynote of some kind, about climate change this year.
  • GarasuGarasu Shipmate
    Given that the Archbishop of Canterbury has endorsed as his lent book something that I understand focuses on the climate crisis, it perhaps isn't surprising if that's being picked up?
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    I've preached on climate change before, and will probably do so again should the occasion (including what the lectionary gives me) be appropriate. Given the context of Ash Wednesday, and Lent more generally, of penitential preparation for Easter then a sermon on climate change seems entirely appropriate - our (lack of) care for the environment and the impacts that has on others is one of the sins we need to repent of, as people give things up for Lent a challenge to do more for their fellow creatures in combating the climate emergency (eg: maybe stop driving during Lent, and take the bus instead) could be more meaningful than giving up chocolate. I'd probably worry if that was the theme of the sermon every year, but it's a very topical subject just now.

    @FloRoss, well done to your minister for tackling it (of course, I can't comment on how well the sermon was delivered, as I wasn't there). A sermon on Safeguarding seems harder to work into the life of the church, unless there has been a problem there or in your local community, but again I can see occasions where care for the vulnerable is an entirely appropriate subject to focus on in our worship and that could include Safeguarding.
  • I'd go with Alan on this, providing that the climate change theme was introduced in a way which made a conscious link to Christianity, penitence and Lent. I know that the person who posted the OP felt that it was inappropriate; presumably that was because they were expecting something to do with personal spirituality - which isn't what they got. There is, I think, some benefit in occasionally given the "unexpected" if it makes one think!
  • As far as Safeguarding is concerned, a very useful preamble and Gospel justification can be found in the first sections of the Baptist Union's "Safe to Grow" document. We've included a tiny part of that in our church's own statement: "Apart from all this, I wonder if it would be worth putting in a preamble along the lines of: “As a Christian Church, we are committed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is Good News for everyone. Our beliefs include respect for all people as valued and unique individuals, created by God; we therefore want every person who takes part in any of our activities to receive welcome and be kept safe. We further recognise that the good name of Christ in a community is intimately linked to the reputation of its churches; we therefore wish to do everything possible to avoid it from being tarnished”. This sets it in a Christian, rather than a legal or even a "caring" context.
  • Whilst I wouldn't expect a sermon on climate change on Ash Wednesday, I can see that, as others have said, it could well form part of a church's Lent course/sermons/thinking.

    Re safeguarding, the Church of England has certainly been concerned with this in recent months, and it may be that that particular sermon was preached as a result of that concern - perhaps along the lines suggested by @Baptist Trainfan ? The C of E also tries to put the subject in a Christian context.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Climate change/environmentalism/good stewardship of the Earth's resources seems to be the chosen theme for this Lent in the C of E. This Sunday we had a lay speaker talking about the importance of bees to the ecosystem in general and our food supply in particular. Yes, she did talk about it in a Christian context, and as she is herself a beekeeper with over 30 years' experience it was both fascinating and completely unlike anything our clergy (none of whom is a beekeper) could have said on the subject.

    Definitely made me think, and that is the purpose of a good sermon. And if it's the chosen theme for Lent at your church, that would explain why you had a sermon on that theme for Ash Wednesday as well.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Given the importance of the subject to the future of our world, I find it sad to learn that the OPer feels alienated by its mention at church.

    @FloRoss , did your Ash Wednesday service (you don't tell us what denomination you belong to - but please don't feel you have to!) still include some sort of Liturgy of Penitence, and the Imposition of Ashes?

    The mention of safeguarding makes me think that we are talking about an Anglican, or possibly Roman Catholic, church here.

    I don't know what FatherInCharge praught about on Ash Wednesday, as I wasn't there, but I expect it was about keeping Lent faithfully, and quietly, without boasting about it (as per the Gospel). I went to the Cathedral's lunchtime service, which was 'by the book', and included NO sermon. The words of the liturgy were allowed to speak for themselves, which for me was a refreshing change!

  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    I can't actually remember the Ash Wednesday sermon, which suggests that it was the usual spiel about keeping Lent, etc. What I do remember is the minister's enthusiasm over ashing us - we came out of church with huge black crosses on our foreheads, looking like members of some weird cult (which, in some people's view, we are). Ironically, the Gospel reading was all about not making a big song and dance about fasting in order to impress people with your holiness.
  • Quite so, and that very point has been made elsewhere on these boards.

    To Wipe, or not to Wipe? That is the Question...
  • Christian Aid's Lent resource is on climate change, particularly its impact in more deprived countries.

    I know our Lent course is on stewardship, but in what context I won't know until Thursday.
    Fr Mandarin preached on the idea of ashes being a sign of destruction used as a sign of renewal, as well as the usual exhortation to keep a good Lent. Although he mentioned Australia he didn't link the bushfires to climate issues.

    I can take sermons on climate change and safeguarding as they're going to always be a step up from being harangued several weeks running in the church I attended at uni about what financially dire straits the place was in.
  • I’d love a sermon on climate change for Ash Wednesday, but possibly that’s because it’s something I’m very worried about. I’m in a CofE church, general synod passed the resolution to aim for zero net carbon by 2030, and there has been not a peep on it from the leadership of my church, or Deanery.

    I can see how people might feel such a sermon feels out of place on Ash Wednesday, or that looking at climate change is more a corporate issue than the personal reflection often emphasised on this service, but I would welcome it.

    Also, as others have said, the Archbish’s Lent book is Ruth Valerio’s Saying Yes to Life, which is all about care for the planet and tackling climate change, based around the creation story, so perhaps the preacher was using that as a starting point.
  • I think that some of that is working out how the subject can be broached in a local context without people feeling they're being set up to fail by an impossible target.

    In our Deanery there will be a few churches who can easily afford the measures to reduce their carbon footprint, but many like St Quacks where the needs of improving outreach and paying for essential maintenance work, on top of day-to-day running costs eat up what money is available, and the costs of replacing heating and insulating a Victorian barn without spoiling the aesthetics will need careful consideration and a LOT of fundraising if the wider CofE isn't prepared to dish out grants.

    I suspect many churches will face objections even to the idea of solar panels on the roof from the wider public and the listed buildings bodies, although the vicarage in the parish where I live has them.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    edited March 2020
    I think things will have to get a great deal worse before solar panels would be accepted by planners for our highly visible Grade 1 listed building in the heart of a conservation area in a National Park; or plexiglass or even glass secondary glazing across our medieval and Victorian stained glass windows, or the infrastructure needed (on our road island site) for ground- or air-source heat pumps.

    Our architect did explore roofing insulation in connection with major repairs we are currently undergoing, but found it would necessitate a complete rebuild in order to deal with some critical dimensions.

    The value of our heating would be considerably improved by some large ceiling fans-but that’s not going to be permitted either IMO.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    I think things will have to get a great deal worse before solar panels would be accepted by planners for our highly visible Grade 1 listed building in the heart of a conservation area in a National Park; or plexiglass or even glass secondary glazing across our medieval and Victorian stained glass windows, or the infrastructure needed (on our road island site) for ground- or air-source heat pumps.

    Our architect did explore roofing insulation in connection with major repairs we are currently undergoing, but found it would necessitate a complete rebuild in order to deal with some critical dimensions.

    The value of our heating would be considerably improved by some large ceiling fans-but that’s not going to be permitted either IMO.
    I don't agree. I suspect that whoever's pleading that to you is doing so as an excuse for doing nothing. As care for the planet is now the fifth of the CofE's five marks of mission,
    "To strive to safeguard the integrity of creation and sustain and renew the life of the earth."
    it's time parishes and DACs had the guts to face down the heritage lobby, both internal to the church and external to it on this one, even to the point of ranting and self-righteousness.

    For those who like statements (I'm not actually very interested in them) as a mark of mission, insisting on putting some highly visible solar panels on a Grade 1 listed building would be a valuable and significant message.

    I'm not clear what being in a National Park has to do with this. Over 30 years ago I saw some pretty cheapo plastic sheeting removable supplementary glazing in a village church which is in a somewhat exposed position in one of our higher altitude National Parks.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Since most of the suggested works (not secondary glazing or fans) would affect the exterior of the building, the relevant authority is not the DAC and the Chancellor, but the national park as the planning authority. They tend to be governed partly by the thought ‘If we let one building in our picturesque location install solar panels we’ll have to let them all do it.’ And, because we are an island site we don’t have a ‘round the back’ where infrastructure can be concealed. We can’t fig down because (a) we’d very soon hit rock, and (b) we’d be disturbing 500 years worth of burials.
  • A lot of people only turn up to church at Easter and Christmas, so it makes sense to me that the Church uses those opportunities to talk about the most pressing issues of our time.
  • MorganMorgan Shipmate Posts: 15
    This part of the world has suffered for months with catastrophic bushfires, due in no small part to climate change. By Ash Wednesday these fires were officially extinguished although the fire season is not over. Lives, property and livelihoods were lost. Some churches, particularly in affected areas, used ash from these fires for their Ash Wednesday services. This was incredibly moving, personal and spiritually relevant to those who had suffered the events and continue to suffer the results.
  • Wow! Yes indeed.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    A lot of people only turn up to church at Easter and Christmas, so it makes sense to me that the Church uses those opportunities to talk about the most pressing issues of our time.
    Not so sure about that. Presumably people who come to church very occasionally, or only at Christmas and Easter, do so with some sense that somewhere within themselves they have some sort of a hunger that they might want or need to try to make contact with God.

    I'd class saying something that either addressed that or sought to stretch it is the most pressing issue for a major festival.

    On Ash Wednesday, though, it would depend on how Climate Change was spoken about whether I'd regard it as just the subject to speak to or spoiling Ash Wednesday.

    It's primarily an occasion for people already members of the household of faith. It's not the sort of time when many occasional conformists are likely to turn up. As many have already pointed out on this thread, a Christian's approach to stewardship of the earth is very much the centrally promoted theme for the 40 days this year. So, I'd have thought that a sermon on that, was entirely appropriate. However, if the sermon was just something worthy or hectoring that any secular person, such as say George Monbiot, could just as easily have said, then I'd agree with you @FloRoss. Otherwise, I wouldn't.

    So are you grumbling that the service wasn't something 'holy', with the atmosphere you missed from last year, but at heart a bit pietist, or that what you got was a missed opportunity, without the theological element, and as I said, no more than the sort of thing George Monbiot could have said, without the need either for holy orders or theological reflection?

  • A very good question, if I may say so. If one is preaching about an issue such as Climate Change, there needs to be something distinctively Christian about the approach.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Well, it's not difficult to preach* on climate chaos with a Christian approach. Anything related to stewardship of creation would have that context. The last time I preached on the subject the context was lectionary readings calling us to serve others, with a dash of serving others often means sacrificing some of our own comforts (that would also work very well for Lent).

    * I'd add that on a general note, preaching will always be in a Christian context - if there's no Christian context then you're delivering a lecture not preaching a sermon.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    ... * I'd add that on a general note, preaching will always be in a Christian context - if there's no Christian context then you're delivering a lecture not preaching a sermon.
    Yebbut @Alan Cresswell I'm sure most of us have heard what are supposed to be sermons that infringe that one!


  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    ... * I'd add that on a general note, preaching will always be in a Christian context - if there's no Christian context then you're delivering a lecture not preaching a sermon.
    Yebbut @Alan Cresswell I'm sure most of us have heard what are supposed to be sermons that infringe that one!
    True, but without further information I will assume that if someone says they objected to the sermon that this was a sermon, not a lecture. That further info could, of course, be "I was expecting a sermon, but got a dull lecture instead".
  • Or even a not-dull one!
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Sermons, of course, are never dull ;)
  • Though personally, I would find a lecture series featuring a group of people with policy expertise on how we as a society can become less carbon-dependent more useful than some kind of theological argument about why we need to do something about carbon change. Most people I know are already on board with the latter point; the difficult question is how. If, say, our Diocese sponsored something like that on series of weeknights I think a number of people might find it genuinely helpful.

    For me, Ash Wednesday plays an important role in framing Lent as does the Ash Wednesday sermon. I'm not going to rule out the possibility that a good Ash Wednesday sermon could also focus on the issue of climate change, but honestly I think it would be a challenge not to give a sermon where the tail ends up wagging the dog. With the first Sunday of Lent only days around the corner, why not wait till then?

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    A lecture series is different from a sermon series. A lecture series can be organised by a church, but equally especially when it's not dependent upon a theological perspective can be organised by someone else. This weekend we're going to a climate change workshop in the local library, if that was held in a church building the content would be identical (though, of course, being a workshop rather than lecture there will be inevitable variations depending on who attends). It would be good for churches to organise and host such events, but by their very nature would appeal beyond the worshipping community, whereas a sermon is an activity of a worshipping community.
  • Yes, and it may well be that part of the church's response to climate change angst will turn out to be the facilitating of such workshops, discussions, and actions arising therefrom, without overt Christian input, but equally without compromising the Christian message about caring, stewardship, and so on.

    IYSWIM.
  • Bearing in mind that many Christians (a) get their instruction and education largely or exclusively from Sunday sermons; and (b) tend to compartmentalise the "religious" and "secular" aspects of their lives, I think it's good to offer a Christian perspective on these "real world" issues in our sermons, albeit not every week!
  • This.

    The number of peeps attending (say) the Lent Study Group at Our Place, in proportion to our Sunday congregation, is very small indeed.

    Whether we like it or not, the Sunday sermon/homily/address (and there are many ways in which this can, could, or should, be presented), is still the main vehicle for 'on-the-spot' (often using the day's Bible readings) instruction/explanation.

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I agree, and particularly if the issue is one which a lot of people in the congregation might be concerned about. I don't see how it's legitimate to say we can't talk about that because it's something that happens in 'the real world' or 'it's contentious'.

    Anyway, climate change is hardly contentious these days except among the tribe of oddities.

  • That would be the Tribe of Oddities ruling our Idiocracies, no?

    Which, if it be so, makes it all the more imperative for the churches to address this issue, and others affecting the People generally.
  • * I'd add that on a general note, preaching will always be in a Christian context - if there's no Christian context then you're delivering a lecture not preaching a sermon.
    I guess the question that arises for me is what were the Scripture readings? Because, whatever the subject of a sermon, if it doesn't arise out of at least one of the readings, that sounds more like a lecture to me.

    I can easily imagine a sermon on climate change. I cannot as easily imagine one based on the readings traditionally heard on Ash Wednesday.

  • RussRuss Deckhand, Styx
    Given the importance of the subject to the future of our world, I find it sad to learn that the OPer feels alienated by its mention at church.

    A hugely important subject, yes of course.

    But not part of traditional Christianity.

    So I can see an argument that the traditional highlights of the church's year - Christmas, Easter etc - should be left to mean what they have always meant. And breaking new ground - developing a new understanding of the church on the modern world - is better done in ordinary time.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Nonsense. There is an obvious religious question regarding our mismanagement of Creation, and our accountability to its creator for that mismanagement. I can think of few more explicitly Lenten concerns in our time.

    That "Traditional Christianity" has missed this for so long is part of our collective failing.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Is it not part of caring for each other? Sharing resources and at minimal cost to those who will follow us? And caring for the created world
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Russ wrote: »
    Given the importance of the subject to the future of our world, I find it sad to learn that the OPer feels alienated by its mention at church.

    A hugely important subject, yes of course.

    But not part of traditional Christianity.
    When did "love your neighbour" stop being part of traditional Christianity?
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I can easily imagine a sermon on climate change. I cannot as easily imagine one based on the readings traditionally heard on Ash Wednesday.
    This is where, to my mind, the traditions that rigidly follow a lectionary have it wrong to the extent that - dare I say? - they might even be "quenching the freedom of the Spirit". For one either has to make the momentous decision to go off-piste and use different readings, causing ire and wrath among the faithful; or one has to somehow squeeze the readings and the topic together even though they aren't natural bedfellows and better readings could have been chosen.

  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I can easily imagine a sermon on climate change. I cannot as easily imagine one based on the readings traditionally heard on Ash Wednesday.
    This is where, to my mind, the traditions that rigidly follow a lectionary have it wrong to the extent that - dare I say? - they might even be "quenching the freedom of the Spirit". For one either has to make the momentous decision to go off-piste and use different readings, causing ire and wrath among the faithful; or one has to somehow squeeze the readings and the topic together even though they aren't natural bedfellows and better readings could have been chosen.

    ...and this is where non-conformists sound egotistical and arrogant.

    The point of the lectionary, to my mind, is that the whole church is moving through it together. Each congregation, each preacher will bring their selves, individual and collective, to it and get different things out of it. No shoehorning required; just openness.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I can easily imagine a sermon on climate change. I cannot as easily imagine one based on the readings traditionally heard on Ash Wednesday.
    This is where, to my mind, the traditions that rigidly follow a lectionary have it wrong to the extent that - dare I say? - they might even be "quenching the freedom of the Spirit". For one either has to make the momentous decision to go off-piste and use different readings, causing ire and wrath among the faithful; or one has to somehow squeeze the readings and the topic together even though they aren't natural bedfellows and better readings could have been chosen.
    Our place doesn't have a service on Ash Wednesday, but the prayer book has a Gospel reading (Matthew 6) about giving to others, fasting and not storing up treasures on earth - I could easily make a sermon on how consumerism and accumulation of worldly wealth and comfort have contributed both to impoverishing others and damage to the environment, and our calling to follow Christ should include assessing our attitudes to "stuff" and how we consume the resources of the world. Isaiah on true fasting, "to loose the chains of injustice, to set the oppressed free, to share your food with the hungry, provide the poor wanderer with shelter"; lots from that which could apply to how we respond to the climate emergency. 2 Corinthians about how we live as ambassadors of Christ, I can see how to fit in a climate emergency filter on that, leading by example to work to address the problems, add in the bit there about enduring the criticism and hostility of living the right way and you've got a bit chunk of my last sermon which included the need to act on the climate as part of our service to others.

  • I knew someone would pick me up on what I wrote! I do appreciate what you say, and I of course accept that the common nonconformist way of "preaching on what you think the Spirit is saying" has many problems of its own. As it happens I quite frequently follow the RCL myself.

    Nevertheless I do worry that, in churches which use a lectionary but where preachers quite rightly want to focus on a pressing issue of the day, a lot of eisegesis may be going on: i.e. the squeezing of meanings out of the set text which really aren't in it. That to me isn't really being faithful to Scripture.
  • KwesiKwesi Deckhand, Styx
    Simon Toad: I'm Catholic and so I want the focus to be on Easter, sin and redemption. Its about preparation for Good Friday, and then the release of Easter Sunday.

    I'm not a Roman Catholic, but I think your post, Simon, aptly sums up what most Christians would see as the purpose of the Lenten period. My problem is that the liturgical construction of Lent severely truncates the significance of Christ's ministry. When Easter is early, the Magi have hardly left the stage before Ash Wednesday and Lenten Cross make their appearance. We are left with the impression that the death of Christ was the only purpose of the incarnation. Lent, with its emphasis on sackcloth and ashes, pushes out the declaration of Jubilee.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    I assume one could preach on the poetry of Hopkins without departing from "traditional Christianity". When Hopkins wrote Inversnaid,

    Oh let them be left, wildness and wet;
    Long be the weeds and the wilderness yet.

    Did he think he was no longer writing about "traditional Christianity" just because in that particular poem he doesn't explicitly mention God or Jesus?

    Traditional Christianity relates to everything or it is nothing.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    I knew someone would pick me up on what I wrote! I do appreciate what you say, and I of course accept that the common nonconformist way of "preaching on what you think the Spirit is saying" has many problems of its own. As it happens I quite frequently follow the RCL myself.

    Nevertheless I do worry that, in churches which use a lectionary but where preachers quite rightly want to focus on a pressing issue of the day, a lot of eisegesis may be going on: i.e. the squeezing of meanings out of the set text which really aren't in it. That to me isn't really being faithful to Scripture.

    To my mind it is being faithful to the place of scripture in the life of the church. A sermon brings the bible to life in the context of the community receiving that scripture. It cannot therefore be excessively eisegetic to bring the scriptures heard to bear on where that community is.

    Fixed broken quote code. BroJames Purgatory Host
  • KwesiKwesi Deckhand, Styx
    ThunderBunk: A sermon brings the bible to life in the context of the community receiving that scripture. It cannot therefore be excessively eisegetic to bring the scriptures heard to bear on where that community is.

    The question I would want to ask is how a centrally constructed lectionary can determined which passages of scripture "bring the bible to life in the context of the [numerous and varied] communities receiving that scripture."
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    When the lectionary sets a Gospel, OT, Epistle and Psalm then there should be something in that collection of readings which is relevant to the life of any Christian community.
Sign In or Register to comment.