Some one has to do it . . . .sorry if that makes you uncomfortable .. .
No-one has to do it. It's genuinely unnecessary. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, but not all of us try to paint our hobbies as some kind of mission from God.
No-one has to do it. It's genuinely unnecessary. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, but not all of us try to paint our hobbies as some kind of mission from God.
Did I say "from God?"
Maybe it's from the other guy . . . .or maybe I made the whole thing up just to be annoying . . .
No-one has to do it. It's genuinely unnecessary. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, but not all of us try to paint our hobbies as some kind of mission from God.
Did I say "from God?"
Maybe it's from the other guy . . . .or maybe I made the whole thing up just to be annoying . . .
Please use a capital for "Shroud," Bro James as this word is a proper noun. The use of a small "s" indicates an intentional disrespect and is employed by many hardened skeptics.
All of the several objections to the authenticity of the Holy Shroud can be countered by reasonable explanations.
But the skeptics cannot explain how the image was put onto the cloth. They keep saying that they will figure it out in just a few more years, but they have been saying that for over a hundred years.
That image should not be there, but it is and is not going away.
Please use a capital for "Shroud," Bro James as this word is a proper noun. The use of a small "s" indicates an intentional disrespect and is employed by many hardened skeptics.
As long as you don't use disrespectful names for Jesus.
Please use a capital for "Shroud," Bro James as this word is a proper noun. The use of a small "s" indicates an intentional disrespect and is employed by many hardened skeptics.
As long as you don't use disrespectful names for Jesus.
Yes.
No more of this Rabbi Yeshu (or whatever) nonsense, please. This is a Christian website.
Please use a capital for "Shroud," Bro James as this word is a proper noun. The use of a small "s" indicates an intentional disrespect and is employed by many hardened skeptics.
As long as you don't use disrespectful names for Jesus.
Yes.
No more of this Rabbi Yeshu (or whatever) nonsense, please. This is a Christian website.
Can live with that. The Ben Pantera bit rather assumes though...
Please use a capital for "Shroud," Bro James as this word is a proper noun. The use of a small "s" indicates an intentional disrespect and is employed by many hardened skeptics.
As long as you don't use disrespectful names for Jesus.
Yes.
No more of this Rabbi Yeshu (or whatever) nonsense, please. This is a Christian website.
Can live with that. The Ben Pantera bit rather assumes though...
Where does that calumny come from, I wonder? An insult to Our Blessed Lady...
No they can’t. Vanishing corpses giving off neutron blasts to spoof radiocarbon dating is not a reasonable explanation.
Of course the hypothesis that Yehoshua's* corpse vanished is not rational, but neither is the tale that Yehoshua appeared in the flesh to His disciples after His brutal execution. If you are going to accept the truth of the Holy Gospels, then you have to believe that His corpse was not to be found in its tomb when it was first opened.
Science cannot, of course, duplicate the disappearance of a human corpse into another dimension. Therefore, it is not possible to ascertain what radiological side effects might accompany such an event. Shroud researchers have determined that the Shroud's image is the result of some kind of radiation whose source was from the corpse that the Shroud enveloped. Therefore, it does not seem unreasonable to postulate a neutron flux as a side effect of the vanishing. Images of flowers are visible around the corpse's image. Neutron radiation would have caused these burial flowers to emit enough proton radiation to cause their image to be imprinted on the Shroud.
The alternative explanation for the 16% increase in the Shroud's 14C content is to hypothesize that it is of a medieval origin. I have previously discussed this theory and given valid reasons why it is not viable, one of which is that the Shroud is proven to be extant in the sixth century by the numerous icons and coins which display a Shroud dependent image.
*Yehoshua is the Messiah's formal Hebrew name. If you were to ask for a person named "Jesus" in first century Israel, no one would know who you were talking about. It is not a Aramaic or Hebrew name. Yehoshua's detractors wanted the world to forget His name.
Using the term "Jesus" enables that desire.
Common knowledge, fellow rodent. Yehoshua shortens to Yeshua in Aramaic. In Greek Yeshua becomes Iesous. In English the "I" becomes a "J" resulting in the familiar "Jesus."
I'd like to explain here that I meant no insult in my use of the suffix, "ben Pantera," which means "son of the Panther." One out of seven first century Jewish men had the name "Yehoshua," and that name is still in use today. At least one prominent ancient Rabbi had that name, and he was not the Messiah. I use the suffix, "ben Pantera," to create a unique name that cannot be mistaken for any other, and I regard "son of the Panther" to refer to the Holy Spirit rather than to that Jewish archer who enlisted in the Roman Legion.
As a side note, Prof. Fanti relates that fragmented DNA obtained from the blood on the Shroud has been analyzed and its resulting data published. In his book, THE PHYSICS OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, (2007) Tipler concludes that the solution to this data is the hypothesis of an XX chromosome which contains an SSY factor, in other words, the signature of parthenogenesis.
The books that we have call him Iesous (Ἰησοῦς). Yehoshua is an inference from that (not a wrong inference necessarily, but an inference). If scholars (or you or I) can work out that the man the Gospels call Iesous was called Yehoshua in Aramaic, then using Iesous (or the English spelling Jesus) clearly and patently does not enable the name Yehoshua to be forgotten.
Ben Pantera refers to the belief that Jesus' father was a Roman soldier of that name. You can imagine it might offend some Christians who put any stock in Mary's Virginity at his conception - i.e. most of them.
Things do not disappear into other dimensions. As has been previously pointed out, this is the popular Sci-fi conception of what dimensions are, not one physicists recognise.
Things do not disappear into other dimensions. As has been previously pointed out, this is the popular Sci-fi conception of what dimensions are, not one physicists recognize.
Karl, Heaven is another dimension, and we cannot see it. Your statement indicates that you hold to a rationalist theology, and that theology is very popular in modern times. Believing that the Shroud cannot be authentic based on one's personal theology is not being objective, and it ignores the very through research that scientists have done on the Shroud. I be willing to bet that the all of the considerable skepticism we have seen here on this thread is based on rationalist theology rather than objectivity.
Of course, rationalist theology is not the only mindset that finds the Holy Shroud objectionable. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't like it as they have a very firm theology as to what Yehoshua looked like which is very different from that depicted on the Shroud.
Bahai Faith doesn't like the Shroud because it proves the disappearance of the corpse, and Bahai theology holds that Yehoshua did not perform miracles and that His reappearance to His disciples was an illusion. I could go on.
The point is that your theology is getting in the way of an objective analysis of the issue, and no one wants to be forced by science into the conclusion that one's theology is wrong.
But that is what the Holy Shroud is all about: proof given by our Creator to the modern world that a miracle can happen.
The point is that your theology is getting in the way of an objective analysis of the issue, and no one wants to be forced by science into the conclusion that one's theology is wrong.
@undead_rat I am objecting to your sci-fi use of the term "dimension". Heaven, if it exists, would be a greater reality, of which the cosmos is a subset. You seem to misuse the word to mean "alternate reality" or "alternative universe", such as posited by some interpretations of quantum physics. Such alternate realities, if they exist, are just part of the created order, not beyond it.
Science cannot, of course, duplicate the disappearance of a human corpse into another dimension. Therefore, it is not possible to ascertain what radiological side effects might accompany such an event.
Theology on the other hand can point out that the action of the primary cause in the absence of any secondary causes can have no side effects. If an omnipotent and omniscient being wants to do something they can do it without side effects. The only limits on God's power are logical possibility.
@undead_rat I am objecting to your sci-fi use of the term "dimension". Heaven, if it exists, would be a greater reality, of which the cosmos is a subset. You seem to misuse the word to mean "alternate reality" or "alternative universe", such as posited by some interpretations of quantum physics. Such alternate realities, if they exist, are just part of the created order, not beyond it.
A 4th spatial dimension would provide a mechanism for the ability of Jesus to move in and out of apparently closed spaces post-resurrection. A line presents an impassable barrier to movement in the plane, but is almost an irrelevance to movement in 3 dimensions. By extrapolation one could hypothesise that the risen Christ was able to move in 4 (or more) spatial dimensions and thus able to bypass a locked door as easily as you or I might step over a rope lying on the ground. This might also explain how people might be unable to recognise him, were he "turned" in such a way in the 4th dimension so as to present a view of himself other than the one he usually had in 3-space.
The alternative explanation for the 16% increase in the Shroud's 14C content is to hypothesize that it is of a medieval origin. I have previously discussed this theory and given valid reasons why it is not viable, one of which is that the Shroud is proven to be extant in the sixth century by the numerous icons and coins which display a Shroud dependent image.
More likely the shroud has a icon- and coin-dependent image.
@undead_rat I am objecting to your sci-fi use of the term "dimension". Heaven, if it exists, would be a greater reality, of which the cosmos is a subset. You seem to misuse the word to mean "alternate reality" or "alternative universe", such as posited by some interpretations of quantum physics. Such alternate realities, if they exist, are just part of the created order, not beyond it.
A 4th spatial dimension would provide a mechanism for the ability of Jesus to move in and out of apparently closed spaces post-resurrection. A line presents an impassable barrier to movement in the plane, but is almost an irrelevance to movement in 3 dimensions. By extrapolation one could hypothesise that the risen Christ was able to move in 4 (or more) spatial dimensions and thus able to bypass a locked door as easily as you or I might step over a rope lying on the ground. This might also explain how people might be unable to recognise him, were he "turned" in such a way in the 4th dimension so as to present a view of himself other than the one he usually had in 3-space.
Yes, but that's not what's meant by "Heaven is another dimension", I think.
Besides, the conjecture that "moving between dimensions" results in a radiation burst powerful enough to stain linen (in a manner unlike known radiation processes ... because otherwise the "how was it done?" question wouldn't be unanswered) and offset the 14C in the linen then that would also happen at any other time that Jesus shifted between dimensions. In which case disciples in locked room would have suffered radiation sickness, if not fatal exposure.
Besides, the conjecture that "moving between dimensions" results in a radiation burst powerful enough to stain linen (in a manner unlike known radiation processes ... because otherwise the "how was it done?" question wouldn't be unanswered) and offset the 14C in the linen then that would also happen at any other time that Jesus shifted between dimensions. In which case disciples in locked room would have suffered radiation sickness, if not fatal exposure.
See, I was thinking the emission would be attributed to the process of Glorification, by which the fully human, spatially constrained body of Jesus becomes the multi-dimensional risen Christ, rather than simply the travel in the fourth spatial dimension.
Why yes, I have been giving this too much thought.
@undead_rat had been talking about the "movement of a corpse into another dimension", I see no reason why the movement of a corpse across dimensions* would have a different physical manifestation than the movement of a living being. Now, of course, the act of turning a corpse into a glorified living being may have a radiation signature, but that would need to happen before any "dimensional shift" in which case it's not a corpse that's moving between dimensions and we're discussing a different scenario than that postulated by @undead_rat.
* with apologies to @KarlLB for the unforgivably slopping use of the word 'dimension' when I really should know better.
Besides, the conjecture that "moving between dimensions" results in a radiation burst powerful enough to stain linen (in a manner unlike known radiation processes ... because otherwise the "how was it done?" question wouldn't be unanswered) and offset the 14C in the linen then that would also happen at any other time that Jesus shifted between dimensions. In which case disciples in locked room would have suffered radiation sickness, if not fatal exposure.
See, I was thinking the emission would be attributed to the process of Glorification, by which the fully human, spatially constrained body of Jesus becomes the multi-dimensional risen Christ, rather than simply the travel in the fourth spatial dimension.
Why yes, I have been giving this too much thought.
Things do not disappear into other dimensions. As has been previously pointed out, this is the popular Sci-fi conception of what dimensions are, not one physicists recognize.
Karl, Heaven is another dimension, and we cannot see it. Your statement indicates that you hold to a rationalist theology, and that theology is very popular in modern times. Believing that the Shroud cannot be authentic based on one's personal theology is not being objective, and it ignores the very through research that scientists have done on the Shroud. I be willing to bet that the all of the considerable skepticism we have seen here on this thread is based on rationalist theology rather than objectivity.
Of course, rationalist theology is not the only mindset that finds the Holy Shroud objectionable. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't like it as they have a very firm theology as to what Yehoshua looked like which is very different from that depicted on the Shroud.
Bahai Faith doesn't like the Shroud because it proves the disappearance of the corpse, and Bahai theology holds that Yehoshua did not perform miracles and that His reappearance to His disciples was an illusion. I could go on.
The point is that your theology is getting in the way of an objective analysis of the issue, and no one wants to be forced by science into the conclusion that one's theology is wrong.
But that is what the Holy Shroud is all about: proof given by our Creator to the modern world that a miracle can happen.
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
Common knowledge, fellow rodent. Yehoshua shortens to Yeshua in Aramaic. In Greek Yeshua becomes Iesous. In English the "I" becomes a "J" resulting in the familiar "Jesus."
I'd like to explain here that I meant no insult in my use of the suffix, "ben Pantera," which means "son of the Panther." One out of seven first century Jewish men had the name "Yehoshua," and that name is still in use today. At least one prominent ancient Rabbi had that name, and he was not the Messiah. I use the suffix, "ben Pantera," to create a unique name that cannot be mistaken for any other, and I regard "son of the Panther" to refer to the Holy Spirit rather than to that Jewish archer who enlisted in the Roman Legion.
As a side note, Prof. Fanti relates that fragmented DNA obtained from the blood on the Shroud has been analyzed and its resulting data published. In his book, THE PHYSICS OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, (2007) Tipler concludes that the solution to this data is the hypothesis of an XX chromosome which contains an SSY factor, in other words, the signature of parthenogenesis.
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
No they can’t. Vanishing corpses giving off neutron blasts to spoof radiocarbon dating is not a reasonable explanation.
Of course the hypothesis that Yehoshua's* corpse vanished is not rational, but neither is the tale that Yehoshua appeared in the flesh to His disciples after His brutal execution. If you are going to accept the truth of the Holy Gospels, then you have to believe that His corpse was not to be found in its tomb when it was first opened.
Science cannot, of course, duplicate the disappearance of a human corpse into another dimension. Therefore, it is not possible to ascertain what radiological side effects might accompany such an event. Shroud researchers have determined that the Shroud's image is the result of some kind of radiation whose source was from the corpse that the Shroud enveloped. Therefore, it does not seem unreasonable to postulate a neutron flux as a side effect of the vanishing. Images of flowers are visible around the corpse's image. Neutron radiation would have caused these burial flowers to emit enough proton radiation to cause their image to be imprinted on the Shroud.
The alternative explanation for the 16% increase in the Shroud's 14C content is to hypothesize that it is of a medieval origin. I have previously discussed this theory and given valid reasons why it is not viable, one of which is that the Shroud is proven to be extant in the sixth century by the numerous icons and coins which display a Shroud dependent image.
*Yehoshua is the Messiah's formal Hebrew name. If you were to ask for a person named "Jesus" in first century Israel, no one would know who you were talking about. It is not a Aramaic or Hebrew name. Yehoshua's detractors wanted the world to forget His name.
Using the term "Jesus" enables that desire.
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
All of the several objections to the authenticity of the Holy Shroud can be countered by reasonable explanations.
But the skeptics cannot explain how the image was put onto the cloth. They keep saying that they will figure it out in just a few more years, but they have been saying that for over a hundred years.
That image should not be there, but it is and is not going away.
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
OK. It seems to me that we’ve reached the end of serious discussion on this subject, so I’m closing the thread. If anyone wants to make the case that there is further worthwhile discussion to be had which will add anything of value to the preceding fifteen pages they can do so in Styx and the Purgatory Hosts will give it all due consideration.
Comments
No, they don't.
What makes us uncomfortable is your condition.
No-one has to do it. It's genuinely unnecessary. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, but not all of us try to paint our hobbies as some kind of mission from God.
makes me uncomfortable too (back hurts most of the time)
Did I say "from God?"
Maybe it's from the other guy . . . .or maybe I made the whole thing up just to be annoying . . .
If you did you have been most successful.
BroJames, Purgatory Host
Please use a capital for "Shroud," Bro James as this word is a proper noun. The use of a small "s" indicates an intentional disrespect and is employed by many hardened skeptics.
But the skeptics cannot explain how the image was put onto the cloth. They keep saying that they will figure it out in just a few more years, but they have been saying that for over a hundred years.
That image should not be there, but it is and is not going away.
Of what relevance to today's world can it possibly be?
What do you @undead_rat think *we* should do with it (apart from indulging in idolatry)?
As long as you don't use disrespectful names for Jesus.
No they can’t. Vanishing corpses giving off neutron blasts to spoof radiocarbon dating is not a reasonable explanation.
May it please her Majesty's court. Or the Crown or however one says that. YES PLEASE!!!!
Yes.
No more of this Rabbi Yeshu (or whatever) nonsense, please. This is a Christian website.
Can live with that. The Ben Pantera bit rather assumes though...
With that logic no thread would ever be closed.
Alas, all too true. There are indeed a few threads which need to be brought to a .
Where does that calumny come from, I wonder? An insult to Our Blessed Lady...
Please. Oh please. OH PLEASE.
Of course the hypothesis that Yehoshua's* corpse vanished is not rational, but neither is the tale that Yehoshua appeared in the flesh to His disciples after His brutal execution. If you are going to accept the truth of the Holy Gospels, then you have to believe that His corpse was not to be found in its tomb when it was first opened.
Science cannot, of course, duplicate the disappearance of a human corpse into another dimension. Therefore, it is not possible to ascertain what radiological side effects might accompany such an event. Shroud researchers have determined that the Shroud's image is the result of some kind of radiation whose source was from the corpse that the Shroud enveloped. Therefore, it does not seem unreasonable to postulate a neutron flux as a side effect of the vanishing. Images of flowers are visible around the corpse's image. Neutron radiation would have caused these burial flowers to emit enough proton radiation to cause their image to be imprinted on the Shroud.
The alternative explanation for the 16% increase in the Shroud's 14C content is to hypothesize that it is of a medieval origin. I have previously discussed this theory and given valid reasons why it is not viable, one of which is that the Shroud is proven to be extant in the sixth century by the numerous icons and coins which display a Shroud dependent image.
*Yehoshua is the Messiah's formal Hebrew name. If you were to ask for a person named "Jesus" in first century Israel, no one would know who you were talking about. It is not a Aramaic or Hebrew name. Yehoshua's detractors wanted the world to forget His name.
Using the term "Jesus" enables that desire.
You know this how?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua
I'd like to explain here that I meant no insult in my use of the suffix, "ben Pantera," which means "son of the Panther." One out of seven first century Jewish men had the name "Yehoshua," and that name is still in use today. At least one prominent ancient Rabbi had that name, and he was not the Messiah. I use the suffix, "ben Pantera," to create a unique name that cannot be mistaken for any other, and I regard "son of the Panther" to refer to the Holy Spirit rather than to that Jewish archer who enlisted in the Roman Legion.
As a side note, Prof. Fanti relates that fragmented DNA obtained from the blood on the Shroud has been analyzed and its resulting data published. In his book, THE PHYSICS OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, (2007) Tipler concludes that the solution to this data is the hypothesis of an XX chromosome which contains an SSY factor, in other words, the signature of parthenogenesis.
Things do not disappear into other dimensions. As has been previously pointed out, this is the popular Sci-fi conception of what dimensions are, not one physicists recognise.
Karl, Heaven is another dimension, and we cannot see it. Your statement indicates that you hold to a rationalist theology, and that theology is very popular in modern times. Believing that the Shroud cannot be authentic based on one's personal theology is not being objective, and it ignores the very through research that scientists have done on the Shroud. I be willing to bet that the all of the considerable skepticism we have seen here on this thread is based on rationalist theology rather than objectivity.
Of course, rationalist theology is not the only mindset that finds the Holy Shroud objectionable. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't like it as they have a very firm theology as to what Yehoshua looked like which is very different from that depicted on the Shroud.
Bahai Faith doesn't like the Shroud because it proves the disappearance of the corpse, and Bahai theology holds that Yehoshua did not perform miracles and that His reappearance to His disciples was an illusion. I could go on.
The point is that your theology is getting in the way of an objective analysis of the issue, and no one wants to be forced by science into the conclusion that one's theology is wrong.
But that is what the Holy Shroud is all about: proof given by our Creator to the modern world that a miracle can happen.
The point is that your theology is getting in the way of an objective analysis of the issue, and no one wants to be forced by science into the conclusion that one's theology is wrong.
There's nothing objective in your analysis.
Dimensions are height, breadth, depth. There's a good explanation here: https://phys.org/news/2014-12-universe-dimensions.html
A 4th spatial dimension would provide a mechanism for the ability of Jesus to move in and out of apparently closed spaces post-resurrection. A line presents an impassable barrier to movement in the plane, but is almost an irrelevance to movement in 3 dimensions. By extrapolation one could hypothesise that the risen Christ was able to move in 4 (or more) spatial dimensions and thus able to bypass a locked door as easily as you or I might step over a rope lying on the ground. This might also explain how people might be unable to recognise him, were he "turned" in such a way in the 4th dimension so as to present a view of himself other than the one he usually had in 3-space.
Yes, but that's not what's meant by "Heaven is another dimension", I think.
See, I was thinking the emission would be attributed to the process of Glorification, by which the fully human, spatially constrained body of Jesus becomes the multi-dimensional risen Christ, rather than simply the travel in the fourth spatial dimension.
Why yes, I have been giving this too much thought.
* with apologies to @KarlLB for the unforgivably slopping use of the word 'dimension' when I really should know better.
O I dunno. You seem to be talking sense...
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
The transparency of the duplicity was obvious to the Roman Catholic intelligentsia of the time. Conspiracist ideation is correlated with religiosity as a by-product of the evolution of human psychology. It didn't matter much before the the neolithic. It's getting far worse now with the internet. People are desperate for significance in their general ignorance.
There has been for some considerable time.
Indeed.
Dear me. There seems to be an echo on this thread...
BroJames, Purgatory Host