@Darda - I'm assuming the hymn There is a fountain is the one by William Cowper? Here are the lyrics of the first verse, hidden for the sake of the squeamish:
There is a fountain filled with blood
Drawn from Immanuel’s veins;
And sinners, plunged beneath that flood,
Lose all their guilty stains:
Lose all their guilty stains,
Lose all their guilty stains;
And sinners, plunged beneath that flood,
Lose all their guilty stains.
More interesting (if somewhat unseasonal) tunes from Darda and Nick Tamen: Puer nobis nascitur and Helmsley* are irrevocably associated with Advent and Christmas in my mind!
* I know there's the "deeply wailing" bit, but still ...
More interesting (if somewhat unseasonal) tunes from Darda and Nick Tamen: Puer nobis nascitur and Helmsley* are irrevocably associated with Advent and Christmas in my mind!
I thought that too when we sang PUER NOBIS NASCITUR. I mean, the Christmas connection is right there in the name of the tune (“a boy/son to us is born”). And as I was thinking that, I glanced down at the bottom of the page. Glory to God, my tribe’s hymnal, includes a note on each hymn. The note for “That Easter Day with Joy Was Bright” says:
These Eastertide stanzas are derived from a longer Latin text that was one of the earliest hymns written especially for a season of the church year. They are set here to a tune with Christmas associations, a means of linking the two great festivals of the Christian year.
So there you go. It was hoped that we’d make the association.
I have no idea what will be sung tomorrow.
I am in that London to cheer on my son who is running in the Marathon.
My replacement organist is only going to play some hymns and no Mass parts - a hymn sandwich as it is called in RC liturgical circles.
Our Place is to sing two St George's Day hymns, as well as two others suitable for Easter 3. Quite what the special St George's Day hymns are, I know not, but they will doubtless fit in with FatherInCharge's unswerving loyalty and patriotism.
We are hosting a Masonic Service (again, for St George's Day) in the afternoon, and I'll be interested to know what hymns might be chosen for that - Christ is made the sure foundation springs to mind as appropriate!
We are hosting a Masonic Service (again, for St George's Day) in the afternoon, and I'll be interested to know what hymns might be chosen for that - Christ is made the sure foundation springs to mind as appropriate!
How do you square holding a masonic service in church when the CofE has consistently spokken of Freemasonry as being inconsistent with Christianity? (The theology of salvation by works e.g)
I'd be very interested to know who in the Diocese has given permission but then again masons are such generous people ....
We are hosting a Masonic Service (again, for St George's Day) in the afternoon, and I'll be interested to know what hymns might be chosen for that - Christ is made the sure foundation springs to mind as appropriate!
How do you square holding a masonic service in church when the CofE has consistently spokken of Freemasonry as being inconsistent with Christianity? (The theology of salvation by works e.g)
I'd be very interested to know who in the Diocese has given permission but then again masons are such generous people ....
Much the same question occurred to me - this is the first time (in recent years, anyway) that a Masonic Service has been held at Our Place AFAIK.
Masons were involved in the establishment and building of the church, as evidenced by the foundation stone.
I don't know why this has been arranged, but a former churchwarden, who died suddenly about this time in 2016, was a Mason, so there may be some connection (his father, now in his 70s, is also a Mason, and large numbers of Masons attended the son's funeral Mass).
We are hosting a Masonic Service (again, for St George's Day) in the afternoon, and I'll be interested to know what hymns might be chosen for that - Christ is made the sure foundation springs to mind as appropriate!
How do you square holding a masonic service in church when the CofE has consistently spokken of Freemasonry as being inconsistent with Christianity? (The theology of salvation by works e.g)
I'd be very interested to know who in the Diocese has given permission but then again masons are such generous people ....
Much the same question occurred to me - this is the first time (in recent years, anyway) that a Masonic Service has been held at Our Place AFAIK.
Masons were involved in the establishment and building of the church, as evidenced by the foundation stone.
I don't know why this has been arranged, but a former churchwarden, who died suddenly about this time in 2016, was a Mason, so there may be some connection (his father, now in his 70s, is also a Mason, and large numbers of Masons attended the son's funeral Mass).
Mmmm what does Father whatsisname and what do the churchwardens think?
Seems extraordinary to me
Well, I assume that FatherInCharge and the churchwarden (we only have one at the moment) have agreed to hold the service, perhaps at the request of the local Lodge, but I'm afraid I don't know any details.
FWIW, it seems strange to me, too. I expect my trusty Spy will be in attendance, and will report back to me in due course!
My Dad (and a fair few of his relatives) was a Mason and at his funeral my cousin (who also belongs) read the Prayer for a Departed Brother: fairly inoffensive, and no masonic gear was worn/carried by anyone.
When my brother was of the age to think about joining, Mum and I told him we'd never speak to him again if he did, but he said nothing was further from his thoughts. So that was OK!
Well, I assume that FatherInCharge and the churchwarden (we only have one at the moment) have agreed to hold the service, perhaps at the request of the local Lodge, but I'm afraid I don't know any details.
FWIW, it seems strange to me, too. I expect my trusty Spy will be in attendance, and will report back to me in due course!
Doesn't this get them all into deep water with the powers that be if there's anything in the service contrary to CofE doctrine?
Christ is alive - Truro All my hope on God is founded - Michael I danced in the morning - Lord of the Dance Brother, sister, let me serve you - The Servant Song This joyful Eastertide - This Joyful Eastertide/Vruchten
Christ is alive - Truro
Open our eyes, Lord
Jesus is risen, Alleluia (Tanzanian)
Jesus, Lord, Redeemer - Evelyns
Here, O my Lord, we see you face to face - Toulon
Sent forth by God's blessing - The Ash Grove
We had inter alia Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken. Heretically it was done to AUSTRIA, not the Correct ABBOTS LEIGH.
I'm more used to Austria for this, leaving AL for "God is love, let heaven adore him" which of course can also be sung to Blaenwern (although I'd reserve that for "Love divine, all loves excelling").
We had inter alia Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken. Heretically it was done to AUSTRIA, not the Correct ABBOTS LEIGH.
I'm more used to Austria for this, leaving AL for "God is love, let heaven adore him" which of course can also be sung to Blaenwern (although I'd reserve that for "Love divine, all loves excelling").
Livestream Choral Evensong from Uppsala Cathedral:
Psalm 23 (Anglican chant – contemporary words, not Coverdale) Magnificat (in Latin – music by Javier Busto) Nunc Dimittis (in Latin – Gregorian chant) Anthem – another version of Psalm 23 (no hint given as to author of tune, but it sounded modern IYSWIM) Hymn – The Lord’s my Shepherd (tune CRIMOND by Jesse Irvine)
All in English (well, apart from the Mag and Nunc), and sung by the Cathedral Girls' Choir (20 of them). A fair-sized congregation, who seemed OK with saying the Creed, and singing the hymn, in English.
April 23rd
He is risen, / Neander
We have a Gospel to proclaim, / Fulda
I know that my redeemer lives, / Church Triumphant
We know that Christ is raised and dies no more, / Engelberg
Choral
Blest be the everlasting God, / Belair
Ego sum panis vivus, (Michael Haller)
A combination of post easter and pre-Anzac Day service.
The day draws on with golden light (Puer nobis nascitur)
Rejoice the Lord is King (Gopsal)
Ye choirs of new Jerusalem (St Fulbert)
Thine be the glory (Maccabaeus)
All in English (well, apart from the Mag and Nunc), and sung by the Cathedral Girls' Choir (20 of them). A fair-sized congregation, who seemed OK with saying the Creed, and singing the hymn, in English.
A service in English from Sweden sounds a bit odd. Did they not import Lutheran hymns and settings?
All in English (well, apart from the Mag and Nunc), and sung by the Cathedral Girls' Choir (20 of them). A fair-sized congregation, who seemed OK with saying the Creed, and singing the hymn, in English.
A service in English from Sweden sounds a bit odd. Did they not import Lutheran hymns and settings?
No, they didn't.
I agree that it sounds a bit odd, but it seems to be not entirely unknown (and English is widely spoken in Sweden, as in other Nordic countries).
I recently mentioned another BCP Evensong in English at Uppsala, back in February for the Candlemas weekend - the youth choirs of 4 Swedish cathedrals get together at that time each year, singing Evensong (in English) on the Saturday afternoon, and the Högmässa (High Mass) in Swedish on the Sunday morning. This year, it was Uppsala's turn.
I wonder what Luther would have thought of services not in the vernacular.
I don't know, but in Anglican tradition "a tongue understanded of the people" has been sufficiently elastic to permit the use of Latin translations of the BCP in some university chapels. If [the vast majority of] the congregation understand what is being said surely that is sufficient?
I wonder what Luther would have thought of services not in the vernacular.
I don't know, but in Anglican tradition "a tongue understanded of the people" has been sufficiently elastic to permit the use of Latin translations of the BCP in some university chapels. If [the vast majority of] the congregation understand what is being said surely that is sufficient?
No - understood of the people, not some people. Stick to the language of the everyday people although I suspect that even the vernacular needs attention. How many would understand that the "Lamb of God" = Jesus? Yet it appears in many services.
However you try to excuse it - "people can go to classes" etc - language can still be exclusive. The church is no place for that.
I wonder what Luther would have thought of services not in the vernacular.
I don't know, but in Anglican tradition "a tongue understanded of the people" has been sufficiently elastic to permit the use of Latin translations of the BCP in some university chapels. If [the vast majority of] the congregation understand what is being said surely that is sufficient?
No - understood of the people, not some people. Stick to the language of the everyday people although I suspect that even the vernacular needs attention. How many would understand that the "Lamb of God" = Jesus? Yet it appears in many services.
However you try to excuse it - "people can go to classes" etc - language can still be exclusive. The church is no place for that.
Meant to add that music - of whatever type or age - can bring together but also divide. Personally I find a "sung" service and/or one with choir pieces pushes me away from God rather than permitting access.
I wonder what Luther would have thought of services not in the vernacular.
I don't know, but in Anglican tradition "a tongue understanded of the people" has been sufficiently elastic to permit the use of Latin translations of the BCP in some university chapels. If [the vast majority of] the congregation understand what is being said surely that is sufficient?
No - understood of the people, not some people.
Hmm. I'm not sure I can agree with that. It would seem to preclude the use of Welsh or Gaelic (for example) except where the entire congregation is fluent.
Hmm ... I suspect that the folk who drew up Article 24 for the CofE were (a) assuming that England (possibly including Wales) was a monolingual country and (b) specifically aiming to stop the use of Latin in churches, as practised by the RC Church.
FYI my wife has attended services in sothern Senegal where the leader has preached in French, with translation into Wolof and English, with a further interpreter at the back whispering Guinea-Bissau Crioulo into someone else's ear.
Hmm ... I suspect that the folk who drew up Article 24 for the CofE were (a) assuming that England (possibly including Wales) was a monolingual country and (b) specifically aiming to stop the use of Latin in churches, as practised by the RC Church.
FYI my wife has attended services in sothern Senegal where the leader has preached in French, with translation into Wolof and English, with a further interpreter at the back whispering Guinea-Bissau Crioulo into someone else's ear.
As I recall they cottoned on to Welsh pretty fast and there has long been a translation of the BCP in Welsh. It was the good folk of Cornwall who got particularly upset about the imposition of the English language, which they considered far more alien to them than the Latin liturgy they'd grown up with.
I wonder what Luther would have thought of services not in the vernacular.
Luther may not have been familiar with the idea of multi-lingualism, which is so common in present-day Europe.
My Lithuanian lady-friend of some years back was fluent in Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, English, and German, and I know of a Finnish Lutheran priest who is part-Finn, part-Greek, and who works among the Swedish-speaking people of her parish. The Eucharist service-book used in the Lutheran church at Longyearbyen (Svalbard), up in the very north of Norway, is printed in Norwegian and English.
FWIW (and I can hardly speak on behalf of Uppsala Cathedral), be it noted that Uppsala is a major University city, and many of the members of the Girls' Choir appeared to be of student age. They may therefore be from several different countries, with English in this case acting as a common language...
I wonder what Luther would have thought of services not in the vernacular.
Luther may not have been familiar with the idea of multi-lingualism, which is so common in present-day Europe.
My Lithuanian lady-friend of some years back was fluent in Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, English, and German, and I know of a Finnish Lutheran priest who is part-Finn, part-Greek, and who works among the Swedish-speaking people of her parish. The Eucharist service-book used in the Lutheran church at Longyearbyen (Svalbard), up in the very north of Norway, is printed in Norwegian and English.
FWIW (and I can hardly speak on behalf of Uppsala Cathedral), be it noted that Uppsala is a major University city, and many of the members of the Girls' Choir appeared to be of student age. They may therefore be from several different countries, with English in this case acting as a common language...
Accepting the caveat you draw attention to, surely the same would have applied to Latin in much of Europe in the 16th century - a language known well by an educated class, but not by those out in the fields. Much could have been said about multi-lingualism 50 years ago, and it was that that Luther railed against
Seriously, though, the Stuff I warble (if the lyrics are on screen), whilst watching online services from Other Places, isn't really relevant to this thread.
Mind you, it's mildly educational - I've recently come across two very nice (and differing) metrical paraphrases of the Magnificat. One is in Swedish, and I'm sure the tune is used for a similar hymn in English, and the other is in Norwegian, to an unfamiliar (but easily singable) tune.
Comments
* I know there's the "deeply wailing" bit, but still ...
I am in that London to cheer on my son who is running in the Marathon.
My replacement organist is only going to play some hymns and no Mass parts - a hymn sandwich as it is called in RC liturgical circles.
We are hosting a Masonic Service (again, for St George's Day) in the afternoon, and I'll be interested to know what hymns might be chosen for that - Christ is made the sure foundation springs to mind as appropriate!
I'd be very interested to know who in the Diocese has given permission but then again masons are such generous people ....
Much the same question occurred to me - this is the first time (in recent years, anyway) that a Masonic Service has been held at Our Place AFAIK.
Masons were involved in the establishment and building of the church, as evidenced by the foundation stone.
I don't know why this has been arranged, but a former churchwarden, who died suddenly about this time in 2016, was a Mason, so there may be some connection (his father, now in his 70s, is also a Mason, and large numbers of Masons attended the son's funeral Mass).
Mmmm what does Father whatsisname and what do the churchwardens think?
Seems extraordinary to me
FWIW, it seems strange to me, too. I expect my trusty Spy will be in attendance, and will report back to me in due course!
When my brother was of the age to think about joining, Mum and I told him we'd never speak to him again if he did, but he said nothing was further from his thoughts. So that was OK!
Doesn't this get them all into deep water with the powers that be if there's anything in the service contrary to CofE doctrine?
Define 'CofE doctrine'.
One might as well try to define 'Baptist doctrine' or 'Methodist doctrine' or ...
Please take the discussion about Freemasonry to Purgatory and return this thread to what we're singing in church.
Nenya - Ecclesiantics Host
Doffs Hostly Mitre
Christ is alive - Truro
All my hope on God is founded - Michael
I danced in the morning - Lord of the Dance
Brother, sister, let me serve you - The Servant Song
This joyful Eastertide - This Joyful Eastertide/Vruchten
Open our eyes, Lord
Jesus is risen, Alleluia (Tanzanian)
Jesus, Lord, Redeemer - Evelyns
Here, O my Lord, we see you face to face - Toulon
Sent forth by God's blessing - The Ash Grove
... and it wasn't a Communion Sunday!!!
In addition to the two St George's Day hymns, Our Place had:
Now the green blade riseth (Noel Nouvelet)
Alleluia, alleluia, give thanks to the risen Lord (words & music by D Fishel)
This was indeed said (as were Horatius Bonar and Charles Spurgeon) and it's a very Baptist thing today. However on this occasion ...
When we get to the Feeding of the 5000 we'll sing, "Break thou the bread of life".
I'm more used to Austria for this, leaving AL for "God is love, let heaven adore him" which of course can also be sung to Blaenwern (although I'd reserve that for "Love divine, all loves excelling").
AL is just a Better Tune.
How Sweet the Name of Jesus Sounds
Angel Voices, Ever Singing
Trust and Obey
Sorry, don't know the names of the tunes.
Psalm 23 (Anglican chant – contemporary words, not Coverdale)
Magnificat (in Latin – music by Javier Busto)
Nunc Dimittis (in Latin – Gregorian chant)
Anthem – another version of Psalm 23 (no hint given as to author of tune, but it sounded modern IYSWIM)
Hymn – The Lord’s my Shepherd (tune CRIMOND by Jesse Irvine)
All in English (well, apart from the Mag and Nunc), and sung by the Cathedral Girls' Choir (20 of them). A fair-sized congregation, who seemed OK with saying the Creed, and singing the hymn, in English.
He is risen, / Neander
We have a Gospel to proclaim, / Fulda
I know that my redeemer lives, / Church Triumphant
We know that Christ is raised and dies no more, / Engelberg
Choral
Blest be the everlasting God, / Belair
Ego sum panis vivus, (Michael Haller)
The day draws on with golden light (Puer nobis nascitur)
Rejoice the Lord is King (Gopsal)
Ye choirs of new Jerusalem (St Fulbert)
Thine be the glory (Maccabaeus)
Does that count?
Who else would do as well?
He wrote some good hymns, though.
A service in English from Sweden sounds a bit odd. Did they not import Lutheran hymns and settings?
No, they didn't.
I agree that it sounds a bit odd, but it seems to be not entirely unknown (and English is widely spoken in Sweden, as in other Nordic countries).
I recently mentioned another BCP Evensong in English at Uppsala, back in February for the Candlemas weekend - the youth choirs of 4 Swedish cathedrals get together at that time each year, singing Evensong (in English) on the Saturday afternoon, and the Högmässa (High Mass) in Swedish on the Sunday morning. This year, it was Uppsala's turn.
I don't know, but in Anglican tradition "a tongue understanded of the people" has been sufficiently elastic to permit the use of Latin translations of the BCP in some university chapels. If [the vast majority of] the congregation understand what is being said surely that is sufficient?
No - understood of the people, not some people. Stick to the language of the everyday people although I suspect that even the vernacular needs attention. How many would understand that the "Lamb of God" = Jesus? Yet it appears in many services.
However you try to excuse it - "people can go to classes" etc - language can still be exclusive. The church is no place for that.
Hmm. I'm not sure I can agree with that. It would seem to preclude the use of Welsh or Gaelic (for example) except where the entire congregation is fluent.
FYI my wife has attended services in sothern Senegal where the leader has preached in French, with translation into Wolof and English, with a further interpreter at the back whispering Guinea-Bissau Crioulo into someone else's ear.
As I recall they cottoned on to Welsh pretty fast and there has long been a translation of the BCP in Welsh. It was the good folk of Cornwall who got particularly upset about the imposition of the English language, which they considered far more alien to them than the Latin liturgy they'd grown up with.
Luther may not have been familiar with the idea of multi-lingualism, which is so common in present-day Europe.
My Lithuanian lady-friend of some years back was fluent in Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, English, and German, and I know of a Finnish Lutheran priest who is part-Finn, part-Greek, and who works among the Swedish-speaking people of her parish. The Eucharist service-book used in the Lutheran church at Longyearbyen (Svalbard), up in the very north of Norway, is printed in Norwegian and English.
FWIW (and I can hardly speak on behalf of Uppsala Cathedral), be it noted that Uppsala is a major University city, and many of the members of the Girls' Choir appeared to be of student age. They may therefore be from several different countries, with English in this case acting as a common language...
Accepting the caveat you draw attention to, surely the same would have applied to Latin in much of Europe in the 16th century - a language known well by an educated class, but not by those out in the fields. Much could have been said about multi-lingualism 50 years ago, and it was that that Luther railed against
Seriously, though, the Stuff I warble (if the lyrics are on screen), whilst watching online services from Other Places, isn't really relevant to this thread.
Mind you, it's mildly educational - I've recently come across two very nice (and differing) metrical paraphrases of the Magnificat. One is in Swedish, and I'm sure the tune is used for a similar hymn in English, and the other is in Norwegian, to an unfamiliar (but easily singable) tune.
...and followed the rules for singing here http://www.agosanjose.org/neworganist/SingingHymns.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2v2NH_T2UsDbw9yyb0uXajkyn0BpGo6Q454iJnooRl33VfmM6k-LJT5J4