Yes. Our Place used to have the Scouts/Cubs/Beavers attend (reluctantly) two or three times a year, and they were asked to read one of the Lessons, and to lead the Prayers. Despite giving them the material in writing a couple of weeks beforehand, it was obvious that no effort had been made to practise...with the exception of one young lass, who read well, and with comprehension. I believe she is now at University...
Little Miss Feet (now 8) reads occasionally, sometimes with minimal chance to practise, and I start to wonder why people find it so hard.
I think I was about 8 the first time I read in church
Same here. Having said that, reading aloud always came naturally to me. I can't take any credit for it; it was just natural, like being either right or left-handed.
If I'm reading a lesson though, I like to have the chance to read it over beforehand, especially if it has a lot of silly Old Testament names in it ...
I think I must have been about 8, too - The Tin Tabernacle Of My Youth had *Children's Church* at 10am on Sundays, and we youngsters were encouraged to read Lessons and Prayers, as well as to sing in the choir.
We used (in rotation) a little book of three different services, all of which were *liturgical* and based on various bits of the BCP...this was 65 years ago, so not much else was available!
Hymns came from Hymns Ancient and Modern (the old blue-cover edition).
Yes. Our Place used to have the Scouts/Cubs/Beavers attend (reluctantly) two or three times a year, and they were asked to read one of the Lessons, and to lead the Prayers. Despite giving them the material in writing a couple of weeks beforehand, it was obvious that no effort had been made to practise...with the exception of one young lass, who read well, and with comprehension. I believe she is now at University...
Little Miss Feet (now 8) reads occasionally, sometimes with minimal chance to practise, and I start to wonder why people find it so hard.
I think I was about 8 the first time I read in church
Same here. Having said that, reading aloud always came naturally to me. I can't take any credit for it; it was just natural, like being either right or left-handed.
Same here. And that’s the thing; it comes very naturally and easy to some of us, while to others it doesn’t. I can understand why some find it hard because some of the things that come easily to others—sports or science, say—do not come easily at all to me.
Same here.
After President Kennedy was shot, my Headteacher rang me at home to ask me to read in Assembly. I was given the reading two minutes before I was due to read.
Playing for a funeral at the local Methodists today, including The Old Rugged Cross. I have neither played nor sung it before - its a belter of a tune. I think this will be the first Methodist service I have been to.
They have an pipe organ which is in a terrible state of repair. It needs about £200,000 to thoroughly overhaul it. They are a small and ageing congregationand this is way beyond their means. And any spare cash they have goes into the food bank they run (excellent!)
Should be interesting.
I'm a sucker for American hymns of that type, and love The Old Rugged Cross. It's great with the harmonies (Doctor Who, of all things, had a lovely rendition a few years ago) and you might get them sung if you have the right Methodists. For full effect I think you're meant to play on a wheezy harmonium, but maybe a clapped out pipe organ will suffice.
I'm a sucker for American hymns of that type, and love The Old Rugged Cross. It's great with the harmonies (Doctor Who, of all things, had a lovely rendition a few years ago) and you might get them sung if you have the right Methodists. For full effect I think you're meant to play on a wheezy harmonium, but maybe a clapped out pipe organ will suffice.
Being an early reader (self taught age 3) and a vicar’s daughter aka Nearest Available Sucker, I was reading in church by about 7, playing for Sunday School aged 8 (thank you ‘Easiest Tune Book of Hymns’) and teaching Sunday School at 12. It’s not just clergy wives who were unpaid curates…
Oh, and ‘Mine Eyes Have Seen The Glory’ was popular in my South Wales school in the 70s. Probably due to the tune. We were mystified by most of the words, apart from giggling at ‘bosom’.
And yes, school trips featured the skydiving version, including
“Glory glory, what a helluva way to die
Suspended by his braces in the middle of the sky”
Or alternatively the ‘teacher hit me with a ruler’ version.
Playing for a funeral at the local Methodists today, including The Old Rugged Cross. I have neither played nor sung it before - its a belter of a tune.
That brings back memories from my youth, when I was organist in a village church, and had my only encounter with it. I was booked for a wedding one Saturday. The families were not regular churchgoers, but the grrom's parents were friends of my parents through non-church activities (Gardeners' Society and Women's Institute). The request was passed to me to include "The Old Rugged Cross" in the music played before the service, as it was a favourite of the groom's grandmother.
I managed to find a copy (in the News Chronicle Song Book which we had at home). Before the wedding, when the groom's family had taken their seats, I played it through, and then improvised a couple of variations. Afterwards I received effusive thanks from the family. The grandmother had apparently been greatly moved by my performance.
When I was in Ipswich, Suffolk, we had a Good Friday Walk of Witness around the town centre. We stopped at various points to either read a portion of the Passion story or sing a hymn. It wasn't easy finding hymns which everyone knew, but we ended up with "There is a green hill", "When I survey", "Were you there when they crucified my Lord" and "The old rugged cross".
Advent Sunday tomorrow at Our Place (and, I guess, at many other Places!), with the following hymns scheduled:
The advent of our King (Franconia or perhaps St Thomas) Thou didst leave thy throne and thy kingly crown (Margaret) Come, thou long-expected Jesus (Halton Holgate) Lo, he comes with clouds descending (Helmsley)
“Christ is coming!” - Neander.
“Great is the darkness” [Noel Richards].
“O come, O come, Emmanuel”.
“The days are surely coming” - Llangloffan.
“Hail to the Lord's anointed” - Cruger.
O come, O come, Emmanuel really sets the tone of Advent for me - not sure why, but perhaps it's the contrast between the rather haunting, even wistful, music of the first four lines, contrasted with the joyful two-line refrain.
Our Place usually reserves it for Advent 4, but IMHO it's suitable for any of the services in Advent.
O come, O come, Emmanuel really sets the tone of Advent for me.
And for me, and I agree with the wistfulness.
Mind you, I don't like the way it's usually sung: to me each line should be one continuous free-flowing phrase, with no bar lines and with the natural stresses of the words.
O come, O come, Emmanuel really sets the tone of Advent for me.
And for me, and I agree with the wistfulness.
Mind you, I don't like the way it's usually sung: to me each line should be one continuous free-flowing phrase, with no bar lines and with the natural stresses of the words.
Yes, agreed. We had it at a special Advent evening service one year, and it was sung a capella (led by Me) in the way you describe.
Visited St James' Anglican, Morpeth this afternoon, Morpeth Combined Choirs Service of Carols for Advent. A blessed Advent season to all journeying through it.
Drop Down Ye Heavens From Above
O Come, O Come, Emmanuel
Of the Father's Heart Begotten
This is the Truth Sent From Above
Wake, O Wake! With Tidings Thrilling
Gabriel to Mary Came (new to me)
The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came
Es ist ein Ros entsprungen (verses interspersed with prayers for Christ to come)
Lo He Comes in Clouds Descending (sic; from verse 2 it was the version I know)
Antiphons by choir throughout.
---
Crossing back to a "new calendar" church last night, the Prophet Nahum is commemorated today (the Orthodox liturgical day begins at sunset). One of many OT books I have zero knowledge of, so interesting to me to hear through hymnody a bit about him, for example from Vespers:
The grace of the all-holy Spirit came and dwelt in you, O God-inspired Nahum, the Prophet of the Most High, and it made you an illustrious lamp of His divine light. Through you He warned the people of Nineveh the great what would befall them.
At Matins we had the Nativity Canon (a different translation), well, not its entirety but the first stanza of each Ode, the first time this Nativity season for me which was lovely. Christmas is coming!
O come, O come, Emmanuel really sets the tone of Advent for me - not sure why, but perhaps it's the contrast between the rather haunting, even wistful, music of the first four lines, contrasted with the joyful two-line refrain.
Our Place usually reserves it for Advent 4, but IMHO it's suitable for any of the services in Advent.
There is a debate among RC liturgy/music people about when this should be sung. The words come from the magnificat antiphons from December 17-23rd and are the "final push" before Christmas. Some think the hymn should be saved up until then. Others don't. I quite like to save it up for late Advent and have quite meditative (longing and waiting) stuff early on.
I have sung and played it both ways, with and without breaks. The tune isn't that old in terms of plainsong and is too late to be strictly modal. And the words in hymn form are post reformation. The words and tune weren't put together until the 1850s. Its a bit of pseudo-medievalism, so either seems OK to me.
This afternoon at our Advent Service we will start with the Matin Responsory ( adapted from Palestrina, as found in CC book 2 page 68
O Come O Come Emmanuel ( Veni Emmanuel)
Come thou long expected Jesus( Cross of Jesus)
Hills of the north rejoice ( Cornard)
Anthem: Come prepare the way (Trumpet voluntary- Jeremiah Clarke)
Lo he comes with clouds descending
( Helmsley)
The angel Gabriel from heaven came
( Gabriel’s Message)
On Jordan’s Bank ( Winchester New )
First Sunday of the month, so the early morning service was "Hymns of Praise" (without communion).
Rejoice, the Lord is King! - GOPSAL
There is a Higher Throne - Keith & Kristyn Getty
The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came - GABRIEL'S MESSAGE
How Sweet the Name of Jesus Sounds - ST PETER
Great is Thy Faithfulness - FAITHFULNESS
I am SO ENVIOUS of all you people having Proper Advent Hymns! Just wait until next year, when I'm going to have a say in what we get at St Pete's ...
We did have hymns with an Advent flavour, but sadly none of the really good ones. I wasn't singing much, as I was serving.
Hark, a herald voice is calling - Merton Lord of our life, and God of our salvation - Cloisters Come, thou long expected Jesus - Cross of Jesus* The advent of our King - Franconia Songs of thankfulness and praise - St Edmund
* Sorry, BT - I actually quite like Stuttgart (and it's what I feel I should be singing to CTLEJ).
You're absolutely right about anything other than Helmsley to LHCWCD though - that absolutely is outrage!
You're absolutely right about anything other than Helmsley to LHCWCD though - that absolutely is outrage!
As I've said on another thread, I heard a rousing rendition from St Giles on the radio this morning: combined choirs of St Giles, St Mary's Anglican & Paisley Abbey.
Next week they'll be doing Welsh "plygain" - can't wait!
At Matins we had the Nativity Canon (a different translation), well, not its entirety but the first stanza of each Ode, the first time this Nativity season for me which was lovely. Christmas is coming!
There are also verses in preparation for Christmas included in some of the feast days, starting on November 30th.
O come, O come, Emmanuel really sets the tone of Advent for me - not sure why, but perhaps it's the contrast between the rather haunting, even wistful, music of the first four lines, contrasted with the joyful two-line refrain.
Our Place usually reserves it for Advent 4, but IMHO it's suitable for any of the services in Advent.
There is a debate among RC liturgy/music people about when this should be sung. The words come from the magnificat antiphons from December 17-23rd and are the "final push" before Christmas. Some think the hymn should be saved up until then. Others don't. I quite like to save it up for late Advent and have quite meditative (longing and waiting) stuff early on.
That debate doesn’t happen in my tribe much, but our hymnal does note the appropriate verse for each day from Dec. 17–Dec. 24. I’m pretty sure the Episcopal Hymnal 1982 does as well.
And no bar lines anywhere in OCOCE in our hymnal, just small marks at the top line of the score to note ends of phrases. That said, if the accompaniment is played exactly as written, it can sound like the bar lines are there. Most organists I’ve encountered play it much more freely.
Today, we only had one “store-bought” hymn—
“Of the Father’s Love Begotten”/DIVINUM MYSTERIUM
The remaining hymns were more “homemade,” as it were. One was by our music director, written while at another church. It will be sung every Sunday in Advent, with an additional verse added each week. The other was one I mentioned a month+ ago, a hymn I wrote for a significant anniversary of the church I grew up in. Not an Advent hymn as such, but one that resonated well with the sermon, so there was a request to use it.
The advent of our God (St Thomas)
Plainsong Mass from NEH
Lo! he comes (Helmsley)
O Jesus Christ remember (Aurelia)
Thou didst leave thy throne (Margaret)
Evensong
Creator of the stars of night (Plainsong)
Come thou long expected Jesus (Cross of Jesus)
Hark a herald voice (Merton)
Hark the glad sound (sung to a Cornish tune by Thomas Merritt)
All good solid traditional Advent hymns, the third hymn this morning came from RC sources and had lovely words. The Cornish tune is an acquired taste and not to my liking but I play what is asked for! It is a loud rumbustious thing with a lot of whooping and scooping 😮
The advent of our God (St Thomas)
O Jesus Christ remember (Aurelia)
Thou didst leave thy throne (Margaret)
Hark the glad sound (sung to a Cornish tune by Thomas Merritt)
New to me (not surprising given my past and current situations). Thank you for expanding my horizons.
I am SO ENVIOUS of all you people having Proper Advent Hymns! Just wait until next year, when I'm going to have a say in what we get at St Pete's ...
Sounds like a promotion of some kind?
Not exactly. J, who currently picks the hymns, is moving to a town on the other side of Edinburgh, and won't be picking the hymns (although she will still come back to rehearse the "choir"). She suggested to Rev Rosie that I assist with hymn-choosing, and she agreed.
I need that devil/angel smilie we had on the old Ship!
Good news @Piglet , and I hope your new task proves congenial!
@Truron - do you have a YouTube link to the Cornish hymn you mentioned? I'm hazarding a guess that it might have been originally intended for a west gallery band/quire.
I am SO ENVIOUS of all you people having Proper Advent Hymns! Just wait until next year, when I'm going to have a say in what we get at St Pete's ...
Sounds like a promotion of some kind?
Not exactly. J, who currently picks the hymns, is moving to a town on the other side of Edinburgh, and won't be picking the hymns (although she will still come back to rehearse the "choir"). She suggested to Rev Rosie that I assist with hymn-choosing, and she agreed.
I need that devil/angel smilie we had on the old Ship!
a bespoke set of words to HELMSLEY by our Rector loosely inspired by "Lo He Comes"
Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus (STUTTGART)*
Signs of Ending All Around Us (EBENEZER)
The anthem was an arrangement of The King Shall Come (MORNING SONG)
*I prefer HYFRYDOL or the excellent JEFFERSON, but I guess when in Rome...(or perhaps more accurately Canterbury for we Episcopalians )
I am SO ENVIOUS of all you people having Proper Advent Hymns! Just wait until next year, when I'm going to have a say in what we get at St Pete's ...
Sounds like a promotion of some kind?
Not exactly. J, who currently picks the hymns, is moving to a town on the other side of Edinburgh, and won't be picking the hymns (although she will still come back to rehearse the "choir"). She suggested to Rev Rosie that I assist with hymn-choosing, and she agreed.
I need that devil/angel smilie we had on the old Ship!
With great power comes great responsibility.
Indeed, but I'm sure all of us here in Eccles are willing and eager to offer assistance in due course, should it be required...
Our Advent Service went very well, especially the Matin Responsory, mainly thanks to three superb visiting tenors. Just as well they were available, as our home tenor became ill and was unable to attend. Unfortunately one of our regular soprano extras messed up her four bar solo, both rhythmically and in pitch.
When you know you yourself are singing in tune, what do you do when those around you have dropped a half-tone?
This. is the Cornish tune, sung here by a male voice choir. Interested in what @Bishop Finger thinks of it, probably better in this situation than with organ and small congregation 🤔
This. is the Cornish tune, sung here by a male voice choir. Interested in what @Bishop Finger thinks of it, probably better in this situation than with organ and small congregation 🤔
Sounds great - thanks!
Not especially easy for small congregation and organ, and needs some competent singers to lead it. A group of musicians, all complete with bass viol, clarinet, and serpent, would make it even more fun!
May I ask a musical notation question of the informed here? What does the flattened(?) "u"-shape represent after a line in a hymn (e.g. pages 32/33, hymn on page 32, verses 2 and 3, here?)?
Comments
Same here. Having said that, reading aloud always came naturally to me. I can't take any credit for it; it was just natural, like being either right or left-handed.
If I'm reading a lesson though, I like to have the chance to read it over beforehand, especially if it has a lot of silly Old Testament names in it ...
We used (in rotation) a little book of three different services, all of which were *liturgical* and based on various bits of the BCP...this was 65 years ago, so not much else was available!
Hymns came from Hymns Ancient and Modern (the old blue-cover edition).
After President Kennedy was shot, my Headteacher rang me at home to ask me to read in Assembly. I was given the reading two minutes before I was due to read.
They have an pipe organ which is in a terrible state of repair. It needs about £200,000 to thoroughly overhaul it. They are a small and ageing congregationand this is way beyond their means. And any spare cash they have goes into the food bank they run (excellent!)
Should be interesting.
This is the Doctor Who arrangement:
https://youtu.be/ODdeJxE_264?si=ndfzmMRNmF6j8h51
I've tried and failed to find it written down anywhere, I think it was arranged specially.
And yes, school trips featured the skydiving version, including
“Glory glory, what a helluva way to die
Suspended by his braces in the middle of the sky”
Or alternatively the ‘teacher hit me with a ruler’ version.
That brings back memories from my youth, when I was organist in a village church, and had my only encounter with it. I was booked for a wedding one Saturday. The families were not regular churchgoers, but the grrom's parents were friends of my parents through non-church activities (Gardeners' Society and Women's Institute). The request was passed to me to include "The Old Rugged Cross" in the music played before the service, as it was a favourite of the groom's grandmother.
I managed to find a copy (in the News Chronicle Song Book which we had at home). Before the wedding, when the groom's family had taken their seats, I played it through, and then improvised a couple of variations. Afterwards I received effusive thanks from the family. The grandmother had apparently been greatly moved by my performance.
I associate it with Welsh Baptist churches rather than Western films. To me, Westerns always seem to feature ‘Rock of Ages’.
The advent of our King (Franconia or perhaps St Thomas)
Thou didst leave thy throne and thy kingly crown (Margaret)
Come, thou long-expected Jesus (Halton Holgate)
Lo, he comes with clouds descending (Helmsley)
“Christ is coming!” - Neander.
“Great is the darkness” [Noel Richards].
“O come, O come, Emmanuel”.
“The days are surely coming” - Llangloffan.
“Hail to the Lord's anointed” - Cruger.
Our Place usually reserves it for Advent 4, but IMHO it's suitable for any of the services in Advent.
Mind you, I don't like the way it's usually sung: to me each line should be one continuous free-flowing phrase, with no bar lines and with the natural stresses of the words.
Hail To The Lord's Anointed
Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus (Hyfrydol)
Lo He Comes In Clouds Descending (Regent Square)
That feels to me like we've got all the big guns coming out this week.
But you get brownie points for not singing "Come, thou long expected" to the IMO rather dull "Stuttgart".
Yes, agreed. We had it at a special Advent evening service one year, and it was sung a capella (led by Me) in the way you describe.
It worked. I miss it!
Drop Down Ye Heavens From Above
O Come, O Come, Emmanuel
Of the Father's Heart Begotten
This is the Truth Sent From Above
Wake, O Wake! With Tidings Thrilling
Gabriel to Mary Came (new to me)
The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came
Es ist ein Ros entsprungen (verses interspersed with prayers for Christ to come)
Lo He Comes in Clouds Descending (sic; from verse 2 it was the version I know)
Antiphons by choir throughout.
---
Crossing back to a "new calendar" church last night, the Prophet Nahum is commemorated today (the Orthodox liturgical day begins at sunset). One of many OT books I have zero knowledge of, so interesting to me to hear through hymnody a bit about him, for example from Vespers:
At Matins we had the Nativity Canon (a different translation), well, not its entirety but the first stanza of each Ode, the first time this Nativity season for me which was lovely. Christmas is coming!
There is a debate among RC liturgy/music people about when this should be sung. The words come from the magnificat antiphons from December 17-23rd and are the "final push" before Christmas. Some think the hymn should be saved up until then. Others don't. I quite like to save it up for late Advent and have quite meditative (longing and waiting) stuff early on.
I have sung and played it both ways, with and without breaks. The tune isn't that old in terms of plainsong and is too late to be strictly modal. And the words in hymn form are post reformation. The words and tune weren't put together until the 1850s. Its a bit of pseudo-medievalism, so either seems OK to me.
O Come O Come Emmanuel ( Veni Emmanuel)
Come thou long expected Jesus( Cross of Jesus)
Hills of the north rejoice ( Cornard)
Anthem: Come prepare the way (Trumpet voluntary- Jeremiah Clarke)
Lo he comes with clouds descending
( Helmsley)
The angel Gabriel from heaven came
( Gabriel’s Message)
On Jordan’s Bank ( Winchester New )
Rejoice, the Lord is King! - GOPSAL
There is a Higher Throne - Keith & Kristyn Getty
The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came - GABRIEL'S MESSAGE
How Sweet the Name of Jesus Sounds - ST PETER
Great is Thy Faithfulness - FAITHFULNESS
We did have hymns with an Advent flavour, but sadly none of the really good ones. I wasn't singing much, as I was serving.
Hark, a herald voice is calling - Merton
Lord of our life, and God of our salvation - Cloisters
Come, thou long expected Jesus - Cross of Jesus*
The advent of our King - Franconia
Songs of thankfulness and praise - St Edmund
* Sorry, BT - I actually quite like Stuttgart (and it's what I feel I should be singing to CTLEJ).
You're absolutely right about anything other than Helmsley to LHCWCD though - that absolutely is outrage!
Next week they'll be doing Welsh "plygain" - can't wait!
O Come O Come Emmanuel
Lo He Comes with Clouds Descending
Hills of the North Rejoice
Brilliant.
There are also verses in preparation for Christmas included in some of the feast days, starting on November 30th.
You can find them all conveniently collected here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160404212452/http://www.anastasis.org.uk/pre-christmas.htm
I had forgotten about these hymns. Thank you for recalling them to mind.
Thank you very much.
That debate doesn’t happen in my tribe much, but our hymnal does note the appropriate verse for each day from Dec. 17–Dec. 24. I’m pretty sure the Episcopal Hymnal 1982 does as well.
And no bar lines anywhere in OCOCE in our hymnal, just small marks at the top line of the score to note ends of phrases. That said, if the accompaniment is played exactly as written, it can sound like the bar lines are there. Most organists I’ve encountered play it much more freely.
Today, we only had one “store-bought” hymn—
“Of the Father’s Love Begotten”/DIVINUM MYSTERIUM
The remaining hymns were more “homemade,” as it were. One was by our music director, written while at another church. It will be sung every Sunday in Advent, with an additional verse added each week. The other was one I mentioned a month+ ago, a hymn I wrote for a significant anniversary of the church I grew up in. Not an Advent hymn as such, but one that resonated well with the sermon, so there was a request to use it.
Parish Eucharist
The advent of our God (St Thomas)
Plainsong Mass from NEH
Lo! he comes (Helmsley)
O Jesus Christ remember (Aurelia)
Thou didst leave thy throne (Margaret)
Evensong
Creator of the stars of night (Plainsong)
Come thou long expected Jesus (Cross of Jesus)
Hark a herald voice (Merton)
Hark the glad sound (sung to a Cornish tune by Thomas Merritt)
All good solid traditional Advent hymns, the third hymn this morning came from RC sources and had lovely words. The Cornish tune is an acquired taste and not to my liking but I play what is asked for! It is a loud rumbustious thing with a lot of whooping and scooping 😮
Not exactly. J, who currently picks the hymns, is moving to a town on the other side of Edinburgh, and won't be picking the hymns (although she will still come back to rehearse the "choir"). She suggested to Rev Rosie that I assist with hymn-choosing, and she agreed.
I need that devil/angel smilie we had on the old Ship!
@Truron - do you have a YouTube link to the Cornish hymn you mentioned? I'm hazarding a guess that it might have been originally intended for a west gallery band/quire.
a bespoke set of words to HELMSLEY by our Rector loosely inspired by "Lo He Comes"
Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus (STUTTGART)*
Signs of Ending All Around Us (EBENEZER)
The anthem was an arrangement of The King Shall Come (MORNING SONG)
*I prefer HYFRYDOL or the excellent JEFFERSON, but I guess when in Rome...(or perhaps more accurately Canterbury for we Episcopalians
Indeed, but I'm sure all of us here in Eccles are willing and eager to offer assistance in due course, should it be required...
When you know you yourself are singing in tune, what do you do when those around you have dropped a half-tone?
This. is the Cornish tune, sung here by a male voice choir. Interested in what @Bishop Finger thinks of it, probably better in this situation than with organ and small congregation 🤔
Sounds great - thanks!
Not especially easy for small congregation and organ, and needs some competent singers to lead it. A group of musicians, all complete with bass viol, clarinet, and serpent, would make it even more fun!
Thank you.