Easy to explain: Gloucester, and its organist, was the way our of a rural backwater for Howells; he loved the city and its cathedral, was inspired by the people he met through the Three Choirs Festival, and it shows in the compositions he wrote for Gloucester.
Love Howells. Have sung lots. Always beautifully written for voices. The superbly bluesy Like as the hart always hits the spot for me. Yes, Coll Gloc has that brilliantly conceived opening to the mag with the intertwining upper voices. But the doxology in the Coll Reg mag and nunc always makes the hairs stand up on my arms - spine-tingling.
[pedant alert] Not "Coll" Gloc: the "Coll" in the shorthand for the King's Service (Collegium Regale), but the Gloucester Service was for the cathedral of that city and is only ever known as The Gloucester Service.
[pedant alert] Not "Coll" Gloc: the "Coll" in the shorthand for the King's Service (Collegium Regale), but the Gloucester Service was for the cathedral of that city and is only ever known as The Gloucester Service.
I feel better now!
Except in the London university college chapel choir and in the (RC) cathedral choir where I sang and where it was known as Coll Gloc by all.
Don't mention it.
Last Sunday the readings were about the cost of discipleship. I heard a good sermon, which contained a striking comparison: "We charge no fee for baptism. But it costs everything."
There's a lot to think about there, but I'm asking here about a small point. Why does the CoE not charge for baptisms, when we do for funerals and weddings? The explanation I was given a long time ago is that baptism is a sacrament, so there's no fee, any more than there would be for receiving Communion.
Is this explanation correct?
What do other denominations do about fees here? Especially those who believe there are more than two sacraments?
Yes, I think that explanation, as regards the C of E, is correct.
Mainstream thinking (going back to the Reformation, I guess) is that there are two sacraments specifically commanded by Our Lord, to wit, Baptism, and Holy Communion.
I’ve never heard of charging for a baptism. We don’t charge for weddings of members, either, except for a fee for the organist and for the sexton/custodian. Nonmembers are charged a fee for use of the church.
And no charge for funerals either, except possibly again for the organist and/or sexton/custodian.
When I was in a seven sacraments corner of Anglicanism the local policy was 'we do not charge for sacraments, but we may charge for the use of the building.' This was a common sense policy based on the fact that cranking up the heating system on a chilly morning in February was going to put a hole in the budget. I seem to recall that we asked for $30 to cover the heat. In the case of nuptial and requiem masses you often got a little white envelope with two or three portraits of General Grant in it, but it was not a formal fee.
Here we have a different system, but I still do not ask for a surplice fee except for marriages where I ask for a small fee to cover my time running back and forth to the courthouse. The vestry charges a fee is to cover the heat or A/C in the church - usually $100 with this building, which is fairly large - though in cases of need we forget to mention it.
When it comes to folks ability to appreciate what it costs to do things I find my wife's observation from when she used to busk in the bars on St Patrick's Day holds true - "The working man appreciates you more." However I always tell her that's because a lot of guys have a soft spot for cute redheads. I will not repeat her response to that one!
RCs do charge "stole fees" for public sacraments celebrated in church, and an offering is made if we ask for a mass for our own intention. RC priests are not salaried - I suppose that is the thinking.
I think there is more to it than that. Baptism is the entry sacrament that marks our coming to Christ. I suspect that the interpretation of "let the little ones come unto me and do not hinder them" makes charging a fee for the Baptism not something the Church would be willing to consider.
... In the case of nuptial and requiem masses you often got a little white envelope with two or three portraits of General Grant in it, but it was not a formal fee. ...
??????? !!!!!!
That's clearly a cultural reference that is beyond my experience. Is that the one who was a general in the US Civil War and then president? Or someone else? Either way, why, and what does that mean? Do US$s have a picture of him on them?
I think there is more to it than that. Baptism is the entry sacrament that marks our coming to Christ. I suspect that the interpretation of "let the little ones come unto me and do not hinder them" makes charging a fee for the Baptism not something the Church would be willing to consider.
... In the case of nuptial and requiem masses you often got a little white envelope with two or three portraits of General Grant in it, but it was not a formal fee. ...
??????? !!!!!!
That's clearly a cultural reference that is beyond my experience. Is that the one who was a general in the US Civil War and then president? Or someone else? Either way, why, and what does that mean? Do US$s have a picture of him on them?
Yes, the general and president. His picture is on the $50 bill, so @PDR means he got an honorarium of $100 or $150 in cash.
Charging for sacraments smacks a little of Simony.
Do RC churches charge for weddings and funerals, as Anglicans do?
People pay when they have a wedding etc in Church. They aren't refused if there is no money - so it isn't exactly charging. I don't think there are set fees, its more a case of "an offering towards the cost of opening the building, leccie at would be appreciated" and an envelope is handed over. It would probably better to have set fees as other places do.
Funeral directors seem to be in charge of funeral finances. I'm an organist and I (and the parish) are paid by the funeral directors. They seem to have set what the rate should be - nobody's ever asked me what I charge. Two envelopes with cheques arrive with the coffin. One for me and one for the parish. Its the only time I ever handle a cheque!
The answer is both NO and YES.It is expected but not demanded that people will make an offering to cover lighting,heating etc
And if there is a Mass offered for a particular intention then there should be a Mass offering but it is not demanded.
I still think there is an Ecclesiantic question as to what in the CofE one is celebrating on the 15th August, how one marks it other than reading the passages for the day, or in what way it is different from the last Sunday of Advent.
I was brought up, both by the revered ordained parent and by the chaplain at school, to believe that if there was any feast on 15th August it was The Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary. So, similar to the orthodox but without the bodily assumption bit.
Both Papa and the chaplain were Mirfield trained, with the chaplain having done further study at St Stephen's House.
The Anglican Church of Canada, in its 1959/1962 BCP, which is still the doctrinal standard, has August 15th as The Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The BAS has August 15th as a red letter Feast of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I am not entirely certain what rigour is observed.
Why does water get added to the wine in Communion? The pious explanation is that this represents our humanity being mingled with Christ's divinity, but I'm suspicious. Most pious explanations are later add ons. Was it originally to make the wine go further?
The explanation I have heard is that it represents the blood and water that flowed from Jesus' side. There are a varietyof interpretations of what the blood and water flowing from Jesus' side represent.
And also of course as it was a common practice 2 millennia and more ago to make the water safe to drink, it was most likely done at the Last Supper itself.
Mixing water with wine was very common in BCE and early CE Mediterranean culture. Drinking unmixed wine was seen as a sign of dissipation. (Greece, Rome)
I think the meanings attached to it were, so to speak, devotional aids attached to normal actions to aid/ inspire/ instruct the worshipper.
Why does water get added to the wine in Communion? The pious explanation is that this represents our humanity being mingled with Christ's divinity, but I'm suspicious. Most pious explanations are later add ons. Was it originally to make the wine go further?
It was done to make the wine palatable and the water safe enough to drink. Other explanations are sort of <sigh, eyeroll> Durandus who had a mystical reason for everything.
I’ve never heard of charging for a baptism. We don’t charge for weddings of members, either, except for a fee for the organist and for the sexton/custodian. Nonmembers are charged a fee for use of the church.
And no charge for funerals either, except possibly again for the organist and/or sexton/custodian.
I have. sadly.
When I was in a parish of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, we often had more recent arrivals from Russia who would be very apologetic and even embarrassed that they had no money to pay for things that we would never have dreamed that people would ever be expected to pay for, and sometimes we learnt from people who did offer money that they had been saving for some time before they even made the request for something that we would never have charged them for. This was completely alien to our British people and those who had long been part of the well-established Russian emigré community.
I'm afraid it didn't do much to help the image of the Moscow Patriarchate in the minds of many of us. I understand that, outside of the urban centres in many countries, the funds might not always be available to give a priest a comfortable salary, and that there might be a social expectation that people requesting things from the priest might give him a little something to help him along - I get that. However, when it reaches the point that a Christian church is refusing to pray for the dead or to baptise people into the Church of God because the people requesting this have no money, something has gone very wrong indeed.
In the C18th the C of E tried bringing in baptism fees. It's in Parson James Woodford's diary. But they gave up the idea because it was 'encouraging immorality' - parishioners were not bringing their children for baptism. The sacraments of baptism and holy communion are seen as signs of the free grace of God to His people. And the pastoral offices of weddings and funerals only include essential fees.
Why does water get added to the wine in Communion? The pious explanation is that this represents our humanity being mingled with Christ's divinity, but I'm suspicious.
I know what you mean but I'm not sure I've heard that particular wording before, and would be wary of it.
In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.
The sacraments of baptism and holy communion are seen as signs of the free grace of God to His people. And the pastoral offices of weddings and funerals only include essential fees.
I don't think anyone's yet pointed out that the fees charged by the C of E for weddings, and funerals, are a legal requirement, the C of E being the Established Church, and all that. In comparison with the overall costs of weddings/funerals these days, they are modest.
Indeed, but it often feels odd that we charge a fee for those services, and not for baptisms. From a practical point of view they are all ceremonies marking life events that we mainly offer to people who have little or no contact with church.
Today I saw a sign outside the local funeral directors advertising their special offer for 'Cremation no ceremony.' It made me feel rather sad. Does modern society really see a funeral as being something which is functional rather than a respectful laying to rest and commending to God in the presence of family and friends?
@Rublev - I agree. I would have thought that if there is any event in life that requires ritual it is the death of a loved one. However, modern society seems to live in a state of quasi-denial about death.
Perhaps it is because we live in a consumer society but we cannot buy life, so we ignore death instead. Previous generations were much more pragmatic about death:
"The world is a city full of crowded streets,
Death is the marketplace where all men meet;
If life were merchandise that men could buy,
The rich would always live and the poor would always die"
(C16th tombstone epitaph).
Indeed, but it often feels odd that we charge a fee for those services, and not for baptisms. From a practical point of view they are all ceremonies marking life events that we mainly offer to people who have little or no contact with church.
Yes, and it would be interesting to see whether churches would become more popular wedding/funeral venues (IYSWIM) if set fees were not charged, but donations invited instead.
At Our Place, a poor UPA parish, we find that families are often quite generous at baptisms, making voluntary donations to the church which has welcomed them...
Today I saw a sign outside the local funeral directors advertising their special offer for 'Cremation no ceremony.' It made me feel rather sad. Does modern society really see a funeral as being something which is functional rather than a respectful laying to rest and commending to God in the presence of family and friends?
It certainly does in the secular, post-Christian, UK. The service offered may well include a respectful laying to rest, but it seems, sadly, logical to have no commendation to a god in whom probably no-one there believes anyway.
Today I saw a sign outside the local funeral directors advertising their special offer for 'Cremation no ceremony.' It made me feel rather sad. Does modern society really see a funeral as being something which is functional rather than a respectful laying to rest and commending to God in the presence of family and friends?
One of my churches is twinned with a rural Czech congregation of the ECCB (Evangelical Church of the Czech Brethren, a Protestant church made of various strands which came together a hundred years ago). The minister there envies me funerals. He says that in the communist years obviously church funerals were not encouraged, and instead the state offered a ceremony. This state ceremony is still on offer, but is so dire (he says) that most people, not knowing that there is an alternative, opt for no ceremony, as in @Rublev's observation above. My Czech friend says that this is very bad for the grieving process and emotional health.
Indeed, but it often feels odd that we charge a fee for those services, and not for baptisms. From a practical point of view they are all ceremonies marking life events that we mainly offer to people who have little or no contact with church.
In countries (most I believe) where the clergy do not act on behalf of the state as registrars, a church wedding is a purely religious service and it's up to the church whether it charges a fee or asks for a donation. In the C of E we have to charge a fee but the couple don't then have to pay a fee to the state registrar. I'd prefer the former arrangement but since they would have to pay a fee in any case I don't think the church is acting unfairly. And in the vast majority of cases the expenditure on costumes, room hire, food and drink, flowers etc vastly outweighs the church fee.
Many (most?) CoE churches are struggling for money to survive. As others have said, the church fee for weddings and funerals is a small part of the total, which is why it feels odd that we can't charge for baptisms.
In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.
It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.
"O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."
In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.
It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.
"O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."
That is much closer to the Tridentine wording. I wonder if it predates the Schism.
Is it possible that Cyprian is quoting from the Western rite Orthodox liturgy which to an outside observer looks much like the Roman rite (minus perhaps the prayer for the pope ?
It is equally possible that it comes from the pre-schism Byzantine rite liturgy.
However I would ask Cyprian from what time does the text of the Western rite Orthodox liturgy date in its present form ?
In the RC mass the priest says this prayer during the mixing of the water and wine "By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity." It is a shorter and clearer version of the prayer in the Tridentine Missal.
It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.
"O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."
That is much closer to the Tridentine wording. I wonder if it predates the Schism.
Possibly.
The rite I vaguely referred to as "our Orthodox rite" above is the rite of the Gauls as reconstructed by St John of Saint-Denis in the last century from ancient sources. I have only this weekend purchased his commentary on his sources and method but haven't yet read it. If I'm able to find anything about the prayers of the preparation rite I'll post back here.
Comments
I feel better now!
Except in the London university college chapel choir and in the (RC) cathedral choir where I sang and where it was known as Coll Gloc by all.
Don't mention it.
There's a lot to think about there, but I'm asking here about a small point. Why does the CoE not charge for baptisms, when we do for funerals and weddings? The explanation I was given a long time ago is that baptism is a sacrament, so there's no fee, any more than there would be for receiving Communion.
Is this explanation correct?
What do other denominations do about fees here? Especially those who believe there are more than two sacraments?
Mainstream thinking (going back to the Reformation, I guess) is that there are two sacraments specifically commanded by Our Lord, to wit, Baptism, and Holy Communion.
And no charge for funerals either, except possibly again for the organist and/or sexton/custodian.
Here we have a different system, but I still do not ask for a surplice fee except for marriages where I ask for a small fee to cover my time running back and forth to the courthouse. The vestry charges a fee is to cover the heat or A/C in the church - usually $100 with this building, which is fairly large - though in cases of need we forget to mention it.
When it comes to folks ability to appreciate what it costs to do things I find my wife's observation from when she used to busk in the bars on St Patrick's Day holds true - "The working man appreciates you more." However I always tell her that's because a lot of guys have a soft spot for cute redheads. I will not repeat her response to that one!
That's clearly a cultural reference that is beyond my experience. Is that the one who was a general in the US Civil War and then president? Or someone else? Either way, why, and what does that mean? Do US$s have a picture of him on them?
This.
Do RC churches charge for weddings and funerals, as Anglicans do?
People pay when they have a wedding etc in Church. They aren't refused if there is no money - so it isn't exactly charging. I don't think there are set fees, its more a case of "an offering towards the cost of opening the building, leccie at would be appreciated" and an envelope is handed over. It would probably better to have set fees as other places do.
Funeral directors seem to be in charge of funeral finances. I'm an organist and I (and the parish) are paid by the funeral directors. They seem to have set what the rate should be - nobody's ever asked me what I charge. Two envelopes with cheques arrive with the coffin. One for me and one for the parish. Its the only time I ever handle a cheque!
And if there is a Mass offered for a particular intention then there should be a Mass offering but it is not demanded.
The Anglican Church of Canada, in its 1959/1962 BCP, which is still the doctrinal standard, has August 15th as The Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The BAS has August 15th as a red letter Feast of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I am not entirely certain what rigour is observed.
I think the meanings attached to it were, so to speak, devotional aids attached to normal actions to aid/ inspire/ instruct the worshipper.
It was done to make the wine palatable and the water safe enough to drink. Other explanations are sort of <sigh, eyeroll> Durandus who had a mystical reason for everything.
I have. sadly.
When I was in a parish of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, we often had more recent arrivals from Russia who would be very apologetic and even embarrassed that they had no money to pay for things that we would never have dreamed that people would ever be expected to pay for, and sometimes we learnt from people who did offer money that they had been saving for some time before they even made the request for something that we would never have charged them for. This was completely alien to our British people and those who had long been part of the well-established Russian emigré community.
I'm afraid it didn't do much to help the image of the Moscow Patriarchate in the minds of many of us. I understand that, outside of the urban centres in many countries, the funds might not always be available to give a priest a comfortable salary, and that there might be a social expectation that people requesting things from the priest might give him a little something to help him along - I get that. However, when it reaches the point that a Christian church is refusing to pray for the dead or to baptise people into the Church of God because the people requesting this have no money, something has gone very wrong indeed.
I know what you mean but I'm not sure I've heard that particular wording before, and would be wary of it.
I don't think anyone's yet pointed out that the fees charged by the C of E for weddings, and funerals, are a legal requirement, the C of E being the Established Church, and all that. In comparison with the overall costs of weddings/funerals these days, they are modest.
"The world is a city full of crowded streets,
Death is the marketplace where all men meet;
If life were merchandise that men could buy,
The rich would always live and the poor would always die"
(C16th tombstone epitaph).
Yes, and it would be interesting to see whether churches would become more popular wedding/funeral venues (IYSWIM) if set fees were not charged, but donations invited instead.
At Our Place, a poor UPA parish, we find that families are often quite generous at baptisms, making voluntary donations to the church which has welcomed them...
It certainly does in the secular, post-Christian, UK. The service offered may well include a respectful laying to rest, but it seems, sadly, logical to have no commendation to a god in whom probably no-one there believes anyway.
One of my churches is twinned with a rural Czech congregation of the ECCB (Evangelical Church of the Czech Brethren, a Protestant church made of various strands which came together a hundred years ago). The minister there envies me funerals. He says that in the communist years obviously church funerals were not encouraged, and instead the state offered a ceremony. This state ceremony is still on offer, but is so dire (he says) that most people, not knowing that there is an alternative, opt for no ceremony, as in @Rublev's observation above. My Czech friend says that this is very bad for the grieving process and emotional health.
In countries (most I believe) where the clergy do not act on behalf of the state as registrars, a church wedding is a purely religious service and it's up to the church whether it charges a fee or asks for a donation. In the C of E we have to charge a fee but the couple don't then have to pay a fee to the state registrar. I'd prefer the former arrangement but since they would have to pay a fee in any case I don't think the church is acting unfairly. And in the vast majority of cases the expenditure on costumes, room hire, food and drink, flowers etc vastly outweighs the church fee.
It exists as well in our Orthodox rite, although it forms part of the preparation prior to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy, and is said by the deacon as he pours the water into the chalice.
"O God, Who wonderfully created and yet more wonderfully restored the dignity of our human nature, grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may come to share in the divine life of Him Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity."
That is much closer to the Tridentine wording. I wonder if it predates the Schism.
It is equally possible that it comes from the pre-schism Byzantine rite liturgy.
However I would ask Cyprian from what time does the text of the Western rite Orthodox liturgy date in its present form ?
Possibly.
The rite I vaguely referred to as "our Orthodox rite" above is the rite of the Gauls as reconstructed by St John of Saint-Denis in the last century from ancient sources. I have only this weekend purchased his commentary on his sources and method but haven't yet read it. If I'm able to find anything about the prayers of the preparation rite I'll post back here.