That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

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  • LolaLola Shipmate Posts: 49
    I feel rather stupid but now that I have googled Easter Vigil to find out what one of those is, I'm pretty certain that's what it will be as the notice sheet says sunrise Holy Communion. It is grey, grim and rainy here which doesn't help. Mr Lola who normally works every Sat and Sun is terribly not-keen on the idea of being woken at 5am on one of the few days of the year he is guaranteed a lie in. He is preparing for some ludicrous sporting event and had mentioned a long training session which would have all worked out nicely but torrential rain could interfere.

    Thank you for the wonderful variety of brilliant mental images! From the (law-breaking) fire in the park with accompanying (excessive) chanting to the champagne in the crypt! I am partial to our regular 8am BCP service so have sort of pictured it as being a bit like that - quiet and thoughtful with maybe an extra sense of empty tomb early in the morning. Low key is fine by me. But Bishop's Fingers service sounds v impressive (would definitely get out of bed for that!) and I suspect there are bacon rolls. Which might be the hardest part actually. But yes indeed....
    Cyprian wrote: »
    If you don't know what form it will take or what to expect, the best thing to do is to go and see.

  • Dawn Eucharist is the tradition I grew up with - light the new fire outside and from it the paschal candle. Enter the church with the sung response of "the light of Christ / thanks be to God" x 3 then fairly normal Eucharist with extra Alleluias and other seasonal bits and pieces followed by breakfast. I think it's fairly standard middle-to-high Anglican fare.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Dawn Eucharist is the tradition I grew up with - light the new fire outside and from it the paschal candle. Enter the church with the sung response of "the light of Christ / thanks be to God" x 3 then fairly normal Eucharist with extra Alleluias and other seasonal bits and pieces followed by breakfast. I think it's fairly standard middle-to-high Anglican fare.
    Wot no Exsultet? Ain't Easter without it.

  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    edited March 2018
    Yes, indeed - O those early-morning bacon rolls! With brown sauce!

    No. No. No. (smh.)

    What a ruining of a perfectly good butty. :/
    I once went to our local Cathedral Easter Vigil, which starts at the illegal hour of 530am on Easter Sunday morning. To my surprise, there were about 150-200 people present, and we had the works - New Fire (outside), Exsultet (with bees), OT readings, Baptisms, Confirmations (by the then Suffragan Bishop), full Sung Eucharist (with choir), incense, holy water, and all....

    IIRC, there was a champagne breakfast in the Crypt afterwards, but I needed to go back to bed by then.

    Did you not ask for a bottle to go? Seriously, that sounds very respectable and just the sort of thing I might enjoy.

    Ours (at my bishop's monastery - Western Orthodox) is in the evening and in two parts: the Office of readings & canticles, followed by the blessing of the New Fire and Paschal Candle (complete with Exultet, Angloid will be pleased to read). If we had any baptisms they would follow here. Then we gather again later on in the evening for Paschal Vigils, followed by the Mass of the Resurrection.

    Vigils is great. It essentially follows the classical structure of the western monastic night office of Vigils but each of the three nocturns takes the form of the paschal strophes of St John of Damascus (sung at speed, and with Alleluias, liberal censings, and shouted greetings of "Christ est ressuscité!, with various familiar texts thrown in, such as Victimae Paschali Laudes, and the paschal troparion.
    I'm afraid I would not be at all attracted by the sort of low-key service described by Cyprian.

    Tomorrow night's experience should more than make up for the disappointment.
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    @Cyprian, I’m not sure where Lola is, but in my part of the world, sunrise service means this, not the Paschal Vigil. I will admit to generally not being a fan, with one exception. As the article notes, the services have roots in the Moravian tradition. As I mentioned on another thread recently, the sunrise service held in in Old Salem (a Moravian community now part of Winston-Salem), North Carolina, is absolutely incredible.

    There was a Moravian settlement a stone's throw from where I used to live, with a nearby church still active. I wonder what their custom is at this time of year. Sadly, the days when I lived there were at a time in my life when I wouldn't have been open to the experience. Now that I am, it isn't an option. :(
    Lola wrote: »
    I feel rather stupid but now that I have googled Easter Vigil to find out what one of those is, I'm pretty certain that's what it will be as the notice sheet says sunrise Holy Communion.

    There's no need to feel daft for going away and learning something new. It's what makes us know we're still living. :)

  • PoppyPoppy Shipmate Posts: 28
    I introduced a non Eucharistic dawn service when I arrived at this parish which is at 6.30am this year and I hope it is a bit dark. I’ve had to buy kindling as all the wood for the fire was wet. We have the loan of bells from the school so there will be a joyful noise. Then breakfast and back for the renewal of baptism vows and the Eucharist.

    I inherited a real liturgical mishmash in this parish where one of my predecessors appeared to have gone over to Rome in all but actually handing in his orders. It has taken some time to work out what the parish expects in terms of liturgical and ritual flourishes.

    It never occurred to me to omit the Gloria in the BCP in Lent. It is not my tradition so I follow the rubrics.

  • angloid wrote: »
    Dawn Eucharist is the tradition I grew up with - light the new fire outside and from it the paschal candle. Enter the church with the sung response of "the light of Christ / thanks be to God" x 3 then fairly normal Eucharist with extra Alleluias and other seasonal bits and pieces followed by breakfast. I think it's fairly standard middle-to-high Anglican fare.
    Wot no Exsultet? Ain't Easter without it.

    No maniple either :anguished:
  • Yes, indeed - O those early-morning bacon rolls! With brown sauce!

    I think you'll find Our Lady intended that Bloody Mary ketchup should be consumed with bacon butties.
  • No, no - the Tomato is the very Vegetable (or Fruit) of Satan!
    :naughty:

    IJ
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Brown sauce, red sauce: just as revolting as each other.

    They're just two sides of the same coin. They're both nasty and neither one has any business being near food expected to be consumed by human beings.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    I sense a schism.

    When was the Collect introduced? Was it there from the early days? Just reading some, and wondering.
  • Never mind the Collect - let's get on with The Great Sauce Schism! The Church could do with some Fun....

    (Actually, I think a 'collect', in the sense of a prayer, made up by the celebrant, to focus people's thoughts at the beginning of the Eucharist, is very ancient, though the formal prayers we use today are much later.)

    IJ
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    The Wikipedia article suggests that the collect of the Mass was in situ at least by the 5th century. I know little beyond what I've just read there.

    As for the sauce debate, bring it on. I'm ready. :smile:

    My own question:

    I want to buy an alb. This looks good but is very inexpensive compared to the other ecclesiatical suppliers' wares and I'm wondering whether that might be a reflection of the quality. Does anybody have any experience of this alb from Vanpoulles?
  • Well, Madam Sacristan gets most of Our Place's requisites (and their name is Legion) from Vanpoulles, so you may well be getting a good-quality bargain. Caveat emptor, of course!

    I could do with a new alb myself....

    Meanwhile, BROWN for Bacon Butties is the new War-Cry, and RED for Sausage Sandwiches!! Let no quarter be shewn, and let the faggots arranged around the stake BURN fiercely!!

    IJ
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    The collect goes back to times of persecution – people arrived in dribs and drabs to avoid suspicion – the collect marked the time when all were gathered so that the liturgy could now begin
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Leo wrote: »
    The collect goes back to times of persecution

    Those days when the Roman emperors forced Christians to eat bacon butties with brown sauce.

  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Cyprian wrote: »
    Leo wrote: »
    The collect goes back to times of persecution

    Those days when the Roman emperors forced Christians to eat bacon butties with brown sauce.
    You mean barm cakes surely?

  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Thanks all.

    I now return you to the Great Sauce War of MMXVIII in which I play the part of Switzerland, not having any.
  • goggog Shipmate Posts: 3
    Let no quarter be shewn, and let the faggots arranged around the stake BURN fiercely!!

    Please don't burn the faggots, they never taste nice like that. But need gravy on them ;)

  • Cyprian wrote: »
    I want to buy an alb. This looks good but is very inexpensive compared to the other ecclesiatical suppliers' wares and I'm wondering whether that might be a reflection of the quality. Does anybody have any experience of this alb from Vanpoulles?

    I've got one- bought about 10 years ago (not heavily used since) It's fine.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Well, Madam Sacristan gets most of Our Place's requisites (and their name is Legion) from Vanpoulles, so you may well be getting a good-quality bargain. Caveat emptor, of course!

    I could do with a new alb myself...

    I'll let you know how I get on.
    I've got one- bought about 10 years ago (not heavily used since) It's fine.

    Thank you. I've ordered one.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    When do churches dedicated to All Souls keep their patronal festival? Surely a Requiem Mass with Absolution over the catafalque isn't the done thing.

    Just wondering.
  • Cyprian wrote: »
    When do churches dedicated to All Souls keep their patronal festival? Surely a Requiem Mass with Absolution over the catafalque isn't the done thing.

    Just wondering.

    Why don't you write the rector of All Souls, Langham Place to ask? :wink:
  • I am not entirely sure that the ministry team at All Souls, Langham Place keeps their saints day!
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    I am not entirely sure that the ministry team at All Souls, Langham Place keeps their saints day!

    Hehe.

    You're naughty.

    However, jokes aside, the parish registers of years gone by might just provide some insight.
  • We have one person who needs gluten-free wafers, but she only attends occasionally. Rather than buy a complete pack of gluten-free wafers, I enquired if a couple of local churches wanted to share the expense. A little bit to my surprise, one parish said that they expected people who needed gluten-free to bring their own and the other said that they used rice crackers from the local supermarket.

    So, do what do you do (if at all) about such people? I've checked out the rice crackers at the supermarket and, to be frank, am not terribly impressed. But I don't want to pay for expensive wafers that will only be used from time to time and where most of them will go off before they're needed.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Ours are individually cellophane wrapped (and of course removed from the wrapper before being placed on their own paten).
  • We have one person who needs gluten-free wafers, but she only attends occasionally. Rather than buy a complete pack of gluten-free wafers, I enquired if a couple of local churches wanted to share the expense. A little bit to my surprise, one parish said that they expected people who needed gluten-free to bring their own and the other said that they used rice crackers from the local supermarket.

    So, do what do you do (if at all) about such people? I've checked out the rice crackers at the supermarket and, to be frank, am not terribly impressed. But I don't want to pay for expensive wafers that will only be used from time to time and where most of them will go off before they're needed.
    I know that this may be of no help at all, but I'll share it just in case it helps someone. So, fwiw . . . .

    At our place, we've recently made the decision to use only gluten-free bread. We have a few members with celiac, and we have others (including Ms. Tamen) who don't have celiac but who do have gluten sensitivity. Because of where we're located (near a college campus), we also can anticipate having others whose needs we don't know—in other words, it's not just a matter of knowing that we have x number of celiacs in the congregation and planning for them and only them.

    We normally administer the elements at stations—usually 3 in the front of the nave and one in the back. (The person in the back can also serve people unable to move out of the pew to commune.) Our prior practice was that the center station in the front had gluten free bread. We found that many went to that station simply because it was the convenient one when it was their turn. Also family of the members with celiacs tended to go with their family member. But it could also be awkward, say for someone sitting in the back who couldn't commune with the rest of the people in the pew where they were sitting because they needed to come to the front for gluten-free bread. On those occasions, usually a few times a year, when we service in the pews, it got even more complicated.

    This required instruction, of course, so that those who needed it knew where the gluten-free bread was. And however nicely stated, the instruction could come off a little as "you people who need special bread, here's how to get it." So we decided that the truly welcoming practice was to make all the bread gluten-free.

    I realize this option isn't available in some communions/traditions, where restrictions on ingredients come into play. That's not an issue for us. I realize, too, that doing this needs to be manageable budget-wise, and that some gluten-free breads don't lend themselves to use at Communion (particularly if intinction is the/a method of communing), and that not all gluten-free breads are created equal taste-wise. (And we think Communion bread should taste good.) We don't use wafers, and we're fortunate that good, cost-appropriate options are readily available around us. Plus we have some good bakers in the congregation who can provide some good bread.

    Since we've starting using only gluten-free bread, I have heard a few of our members who need gluten-free bread say how much they appreciate not feeling like they're singled out as needing special consideration.

    Just a thought.
  • most of them will go off before they're needed.

    How would anyone be able to tell if they're "off"? They're usually incredibly cardboard like at the best of times.
  • Lily PadLily Pad Shipmate
    If you check suppliers, you should be able to find ones where the gluten free wafers are pretty much the same cost as the usual ones. I've been to many churches where only gluten free ones are always used.
  • Using only gluten-free does indeed seem to be a sensible approach!

    Someone's obviously done some joined-up thinking...

    AFAIK, we've never had anyone needing gluten-free at Our Place, though, if we did, I might suggest we opt for all gluten-free (with a little note on our pew-sheet or service book to that effect, so folk don't need to ask).

    If, through some mischance, someone needs gluten-free, but suitable bread/wafer is not to hand, they could receive Communion in one kind (i.e. the wine) only. The Sacrament would be just as valid.

    IJ
  • Using only gluten-free does indeed seem to be a sensible approach!
    Have you ever tasted those things? I've been given one by mistake a few times, and the taste and texture are a distraction from what I'm supposed to be concentrating on while at the Altar Rail.
    If, through some mischance, someone needs gluten-free, but suitable bread/wafer is not to hand, they could receive Communion in one kind (i.e. the wine) only. The Sacrament would be just as valid.

    IJ
    If communicants have been receiving by intinction, bread crumbs get into the wine. Many people with celiac disease cannot receive the wine in those cases.

  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    We use some gluten-free wafers in the Church of Norway and they taste and feel like a mixture of cardboard and papier-mâché. I have done some research and there is a low-gluten wafer that is much better - it is properly wheat - and it can be consumed not only by those who (have deluded themselves into thinking they) have 'gluten intolerance' (courtesy of Dr. Google) but also those who have the actual celiacs decease, according to the organisation of celiacs in Norway.
  • kmann wrote: »
    We use some gluten-free wafers in the Church of Norway and they taste and feel like a mixture of cardboard and papier-mâché. I have done some research and there is a low-gluten wafer that is much better - it is properly wheat - and it can be consumed not only by those who (have deluded themselves into thinking they) have 'gluten intolerance' (courtesy of Dr. Google) but also those who have the actual celiacs decease, according to the organisation of celiacs in Norway.

    Though some coeliacs dispute this, saying even the low gluten ones, over time cause damage to their intestines
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    There are recipes out there for gluten free breads. Our congregation makes a loaf which we share with everyone. Personally, speaking, we have used loafs for such a long time whenever I go to a congregation that has the regular wafers, I often find them cardboardy and dry too.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Using only gluten-free does indeed seem to be a sensible approach!
    Have you ever tasted those things? I've been given one by mistake a few times, and the taste and texture are a distraction from what I'm supposed to be concentrating on while at the Altar Rail.
    If, through some mischance, someone needs gluten-free, but suitable bread/wafer is not to hand, they could receive Communion in one kind (i.e. the wine) only. The Sacrament would be just as valid.

    IJ
    If communicants have been receiving by intinction, bread crumbs get into the wine. Many people with celiac disease cannot receive the wine in those cases.

    In all honesty, no, I have never AFAIK tasted gluten-free bread or wafers, so your comment is a fair one, and I stand corrected.

    Noted, also, re intinction (a practice I personally do not favour). We do have one or two regulars who do intinct, so perhaps it might (if we have folk with coeliac disease) be in order to have a quiet word with them beforehand.

    O dear - what a Thorny Thicket this all is!

    But, given present-day medical knowledge, a Thicket that cannot be cut down willy-nilly, or skirted around as though it didn't exist!

    IJ

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Some coeliac disease sufferers are affected by as little as 20 parts per million, I am told. We provide gluten-free wafers and a small separate chalice. We keep the wafers in an airtight container, (you could supplant that with a dehumidifying sachet) and we don’t have s problem with them going stale. We have half a dozen regular or semi-regular worshippers who need gluten free together with occasional visitors who are glad to find it routinely available. Even if none of our gluten-free regulars is present I will usually put out at least a couple of gluten-free wafers. I end up reverently consuming quite a few myself. I don’t like them much, but they’re harmless.
  • I reckon that, even if you do appear to have to 'waste' a few non-used gluten-free wafers, that's more than outweighed by the spiritual benefit imparted to those who need them.

    As in most things liturgical and pastoral, common-sense is your best friend, and how you deal with this, or any other issue, depends on your circumstances.

    IJ

  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    Though some coeliacs dispute this, saying even the low gluten ones, over time cause damage to their intestines
    Yes, I have heard that myself. But it doesn't seem to be backed up by any research, according to their own organisation.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    One thing to note is that while this ought not be the regular way of distribution, people do not get any 'less Christ' by only communicating under one species.
  • Lily PadLily Pad Shipmate
    The gluten free wafers I have had are almost exactly the same as the regular ones in terms of taste and texture. Years ago, there was a big difference though. A separate cup is necessary if you have people with true celiac disease.
  • We do have them available*. They are kept on a separate paten. We also have small green cards which a person can take to the Altar rail to indicate that they prefer gluten-free.

    *which is how I received them "by mistake" on a few occasions before we started the separate paten.
  • kmann wrote: »
    We use some gluten-free wafers in the Church of Norway and they taste and feel like a mixture of cardboard and papier-mâché.
    You mean as compared how regular Communion wafers taste and feel like a mixture of paper-mâché and styrofoam?
    I have done some research and there is a low-gluten wafer that is much better - it is properly wheat - and it can be consumed not only by those who (have deluded themselves into thinking they) have 'gluten intolerance' (courtesy of Dr. Google) but also those who have the actual celiacs decease, according to the organisation of celiacs in Norway.
    With regard to Dt. Google’s gluten intolerance, yes, there are those people. There are also those people (again, my wife being one), who have paid attention to how they feel when they consume something with gluten compared to how they feel when they do not, and who have been been advised by their actual doctors to avoid gluten. I’m not sure what is accomplished by the clergy’s pooh-poohing of that medical advice.

  • kmann wrote: »
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    Though some coeliacs dispute this, saying even the low gluten ones, over time cause damage to their intestines
    Yes, I have heard that myself. But it doesn't seem to be backed up by any research, according to their own organisation.

    I'd rather take note of people who are there and make sure they feel safe recieving communion.

    Reading around and the research that the 'safe' level is based on is just one very small study..
  • On the myth busting page of the UK Coeliac Association:
    ‘A breadcrumb won’t hurt someone with coeliac disease’...myth
    Even very small amounts of gluten can be damaging to people with coeliac disease. Therefore, taking sensible steps to avoid cross contamination with gluten is important.

    Top tips include:
    • keep cooking utensils separate during food preparation and cooking
    • avoid frying food in the same oil that has previously been used to cook foods which contain gluten
    • use a clean grill, separate toaster or toaster bags to make gluten-free toast
    • use separate breadboards and wash surfaces thoroughly
    • use separate condiments like jam, butter, mustard and mayonnaise.
    My daughter is this bad and I know how ill she gets if she gets a crumb in her diet. Let's believe coeliacs when they say gluten free wafers and/or bread are required.

    I have gluten free bread at home, tend to have bread for me and bread for my daughter as I'd rather not eat the gluten-free given the choice, I can taste the difference and the texture isn't great.
  • Zacchaeus wrote: »
    kmann wrote: »
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    Though some coeliacs dispute this, saying even the low gluten ones, over time cause damage to their intestines
    Yes, I have heard that myself. But it doesn't seem to be backed up by any research, according to their own organisation.

    I'd rather take note of people who are there and make sure they feel safe recieving communion.
    This
    Let's believe coeliacs when they say gluten free wafers and/or bread are required.
    And this.
    I have gluten free bread at home, tend to have bread for me and bread for my daughter as I'd rather not eat the gluten-free given the choice, I can taste the difference and the texture isn't great.
    Hopefully the situation is improving. I’ve certainly had some horrid gluten-free bread, and that’s part of the challenge in moving to only using gluten-free bread for Communion.

    But I’ve also had some really good gluten-free bread. There's a Mediterranean bakery/deli in our area that put some significant effort into developing a recipe for gluten-free pita bread (and to making sure they had a proper facility to bake it in). That’s what we’ve used for Communion recently. It’s very good.

  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    I'd rather take note of people who are there and make sure they feel safe recieving communion.
    Yes, and you can do that by using wafers that have been vetted by coeliac associations.
  • edited April 2018
    Meanwhile, I can't watch Barbara Bush's funeral on TV this morning as I'll be on the road. I hope someone watches it and reports on it -- or better still, perhaps there will be a Mystery Worshipper among the invited guests. St. Martin's certainly looks like a beautiful church. It was Mystery Worshipped here.

    My miscellaneous question would be: Will the service follow the standard Prayer Book ritual or will it be homespun -- or a mixture of both?
  • You can watch the funeral here (and I'm sure at lots of other sites).
  • kmann wrote: »
    Zacchaeus wrote: »
    I'd rather take note of people who are there and make sure they feel safe recieving communion.
    Yes, and you can do that by using wafers that have been vetted by coeliac associations.

    Not all coeliacs agree with their association/society, they would disagree about the low gluten being safe for them
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    This looks like a fairly useful account of the issues.
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