I feel rather stupid but now that I have googled Easter Vigil to find out what one of those is, I'm pretty certain that's what it will be as the notice sheet says sunrise Holy Communion. It is grey, grim and rainy here which doesn't help. Mr Lola who normally works every Sat and Sun is terribly not-keen on the idea of being woken at 5am on one of the few days of the year he is guaranteed a lie in. He is preparing for some ludicrous sporting event and had mentioned a long training session which would have all worked out nicely but torrential rain could interfere.
Thank you for the wonderful variety of brilliant mental images! From the (law-breaking) fire in the park with accompanying (excessive) chanting to the champagne in the crypt! I am partial to our regular 8am BCP service so have sort of pictured it as being a bit like that - quiet and thoughtful with maybe an extra sense of empty tomb early in the morning. Low key is fine by me. But Bishop's Fingers service sounds v impressive (would definitely get out of bed for that!) and I suspect there are bacon rolls. Which might be the hardest part actually. But yes indeed....
Dawn Eucharist is the tradition I grew up with - light the new fire outside and from it the paschal candle. Enter the church with the sung response of "the light of Christ / thanks be to God" x 3 then fairly normal Eucharist with extra Alleluias and other seasonal bits and pieces followed by breakfast. I think it's fairly standard middle-to-high Anglican fare.
Dawn Eucharist is the tradition I grew up with - light the new fire outside and from it the paschal candle. Enter the church with the sung response of "the light of Christ / thanks be to God" x 3 then fairly normal Eucharist with extra Alleluias and other seasonal bits and pieces followed by breakfast. I think it's fairly standard middle-to-high Anglican fare.
Yes, indeed - O those early-morning bacon rolls! With brown sauce!
No. No. No. (smh.)
What a ruining of a perfectly good butty.
I once went to our local Cathedral Easter Vigil, which starts at the illegal hour of 530am on Easter Sunday morning. To my surprise, there were about 150-200 people present, and we had the works - New Fire (outside), Exsultet (with bees), OT readings, Baptisms, Confirmations (by the then Suffragan Bishop), full Sung Eucharist (with choir), incense, holy water, and all....
IIRC, there was a champagne breakfast in the Crypt afterwards, but I needed to go back to bed by then.
Did you not ask for a bottle to go? Seriously, that sounds very respectable and just the sort of thing I might enjoy.
Ours (at my bishop's monastery - Western Orthodox) is in the evening and in two parts: the Office of readings & canticles, followed by the blessing of the New Fire and Paschal Candle (complete with Exultet, Angloid will be pleased to read). If we had any baptisms they would follow here. Then we gather again later on in the evening for Paschal Vigils, followed by the Mass of the Resurrection.
Vigils is great. It essentially follows the classical structure of the western monastic night office of Vigils but each of the three nocturns takes the form of the paschal strophes of St John of Damascus (sung at speed, and with Alleluias, liberal censings, and shouted greetings of "Christ est ressuscité!, with various familiar texts thrown in, such as Victimae Paschali Laudes, and the paschal troparion.
I'm afraid I would not be at all attracted by the sort of low-key service described by Cyprian.
Tomorrow night's experience should more than make up for the disappointment.
@Cyprian, I’m not sure where Lola is, but in my part of the world, sunrise service means this, not the Paschal Vigil. I will admit to generally not being a fan, with one exception. As the article notes, the services have roots in the Moravian tradition. As I mentioned on another thread recently, the sunrise service held in in Old Salem (a Moravian community now part of Winston-Salem), North Carolina, is absolutely incredible.
There was a Moravian settlement a stone's throw from where I used to live, with a nearby church still active. I wonder what their custom is at this time of year. Sadly, the days when I lived there were at a time in my life when I wouldn't have been open to the experience. Now that I am, it isn't an option.
I feel rather stupid but now that I have googled Easter Vigil to find out what one of those is, I'm pretty certain that's what it will be as the notice sheet says sunrise Holy Communion.
There's no need to feel daft for going away and learning something new. It's what makes us know we're still living.
I introduced a non Eucharistic dawn service when I arrived at this parish which is at 6.30am this year and I hope it is a bit dark. I’ve had to buy kindling as all the wood for the fire was wet. We have the loan of bells from the school so there will be a joyful noise. Then breakfast and back for the renewal of baptism vows and the Eucharist.
I inherited a real liturgical mishmash in this parish where one of my predecessors appeared to have gone over to Rome in all but actually handing in his orders. It has taken some time to work out what the parish expects in terms of liturgical and ritual flourishes.
It never occurred to me to omit the Gloria in the BCP in Lent. It is not my tradition so I follow the rubrics.
Dawn Eucharist is the tradition I grew up with - light the new fire outside and from it the paschal candle. Enter the church with the sung response of "the light of Christ / thanks be to God" x 3 then fairly normal Eucharist with extra Alleluias and other seasonal bits and pieces followed by breakfast. I think it's fairly standard middle-to-high Anglican fare.
Never mind the Collect - let's get on with The Great Sauce Schism! The Church could do with some Fun....
(Actually, I think a 'collect', in the sense of a prayer, made up by the celebrant, to focus people's thoughts at the beginning of the Eucharist, is very ancient, though the formal prayers we use today are much later.)
The Wikipedia article suggests that the collect of the Mass was in situ at least by the 5th century. I know little beyond what I've just read there.
As for the sauce debate, bring it on. I'm ready.
My own question:
I want to buy an alb. This looks good but is very inexpensive compared to the other ecclesiatical suppliers' wares and I'm wondering whether that might be a reflection of the quality. Does anybody have any experience of this alb from Vanpoulles?
Well, Madam Sacristan gets most of Our Place's requisites (and their name is Legion) from Vanpoulles, so you may well be getting a good-quality bargain. Caveat emptor, of course!
I could do with a new alb myself....
Meanwhile, BROWN for Bacon Butties is the new War-Cry, and RED for Sausage Sandwiches!! Let no quarter be shewn, and let the faggots arranged around the stake BURN fiercely!!
The collect goes back to times of persecution – people arrived in dribs and drabs to avoid suspicion – the collect marked the time when all were gathered so that the liturgy could now begin
I want to buy an alb. This looks good but is very inexpensive compared to the other ecclesiatical suppliers' wares and I'm wondering whether that might be a reflection of the quality. Does anybody have any experience of this alb from Vanpoulles?
I've got one- bought about 10 years ago (not heavily used since) It's fine.
Well, Madam Sacristan gets most of Our Place's requisites (and their name is Legion) from Vanpoulles, so you may well be getting a good-quality bargain. Caveat emptor, of course!
We have one person who needs gluten-free wafers, but she only attends occasionally. Rather than buy a complete pack of gluten-free wafers, I enquired if a couple of local churches wanted to share the expense. A little bit to my surprise, one parish said that they expected people who needed gluten-free to bring their own and the other said that they used rice crackers from the local supermarket.
So, do what do you do (if at all) about such people? I've checked out the rice crackers at the supermarket and, to be frank, am not terribly impressed. But I don't want to pay for expensive wafers that will only be used from time to time and where most of them will go off before they're needed.
We have one person who needs gluten-free wafers, but she only attends occasionally. Rather than buy a complete pack of gluten-free wafers, I enquired if a couple of local churches wanted to share the expense. A little bit to my surprise, one parish said that they expected people who needed gluten-free to bring their own and the other said that they used rice crackers from the local supermarket.
So, do what do you do (if at all) about such people? I've checked out the rice crackers at the supermarket and, to be frank, am not terribly impressed. But I don't want to pay for expensive wafers that will only be used from time to time and where most of them will go off before they're needed.
I know that this may be of no help at all, but I'll share it just in case it helps someone. So, fwiw . . . .
At our place, we've recently made the decision to use only gluten-free bread. We have a few members with celiac, and we have others (including Ms. Tamen) who don't have celiac but who do have gluten sensitivity. Because of where we're located (near a college campus), we also can anticipate having others whose needs we don't know—in other words, it's not just a matter of knowing that we have x number of celiacs in the congregation and planning for them and only them.
We normally administer the elements at stations—usually 3 in the front of the nave and one in the back. (The person in the back can also serve people unable to move out of the pew to commune.) Our prior practice was that the center station in the front had gluten free bread. We found that many went to that station simply because it was the convenient one when it was their turn. Also family of the members with celiacs tended to go with their family member. But it could also be awkward, say for someone sitting in the back who couldn't commune with the rest of the people in the pew where they were sitting because they needed to come to the front for gluten-free bread. On those occasions, usually a few times a year, when we service in the pews, it got even more complicated.
This required instruction, of course, so that those who needed it knew where the gluten-free bread was. And however nicely stated, the instruction could come off a little as "you people who need special bread, here's how to get it." So we decided that the truly welcoming practice was to make all the bread gluten-free.
I realize this option isn't available in some communions/traditions, where restrictions on ingredients come into play. That's not an issue for us. I realize, too, that doing this needs to be manageable budget-wise, and that some gluten-free breads don't lend themselves to use at Communion (particularly if intinction is the/a method of communing), and that not all gluten-free breads are created equal taste-wise. (And we think Communion bread should taste good.) We don't use wafers, and we're fortunate that good, cost-appropriate options are readily available around us. Plus we have some good bakers in the congregation who can provide some good bread.
Since we've starting using only gluten-free bread, I have heard a few of our members who need gluten-free bread say how much they appreciate not feeling like they're singled out as needing special consideration.
If you check suppliers, you should be able to find ones where the gluten free wafers are pretty much the same cost as the usual ones. I've been to many churches where only gluten free ones are always used.
Using only gluten-free does indeed seem to be a sensible approach!
Someone's obviously done some joined-up thinking...
AFAIK, we've never had anyone needing gluten-free at Our Place, though, if we did, I might suggest we opt for all gluten-free (with a little note on our pew-sheet or service book to that effect, so folk don't need to ask).
If, through some mischance, someone needs gluten-free, but suitable bread/wafer is not to hand, they could receive Communion in one kind (i.e. the wine) only. The Sacrament would be just as valid.
Using only gluten-free does indeed seem to be a sensible approach!
Have you ever tasted those things? I've been given one by mistake a few times, and the taste and texture are a distraction from what I'm supposed to be concentrating on while at the Altar Rail.
If, through some mischance, someone needs gluten-free, but suitable bread/wafer is not to hand, they could receive Communion in one kind (i.e. the wine) only. The Sacrament would be just as valid.
IJ
If communicants have been receiving by intinction, bread crumbs get into the wine. Many people with celiac disease cannot receive the wine in those cases.
We use some gluten-free wafers in the Church of Norway and they taste and feel like a mixture of cardboard and papier-mâché. I have done some research and there is a low-gluten wafer that is much better - it is properly wheat - and it can be consumed not only by those who (have deluded themselves into thinking they) have 'gluten intolerance' (courtesy of Dr. Google) but also those who have the actual celiacs decease, according to the organisation of celiacs in Norway.
We use some gluten-free wafers in the Church of Norway and they taste and feel like a mixture of cardboard and papier-mâché. I have done some research and there is a low-gluten wafer that is much better - it is properly wheat - and it can be consumed not only by those who (have deluded themselves into thinking they) have 'gluten intolerance' (courtesy of Dr. Google) but also those who have the actual celiacs decease, according to the organisation of celiacs in Norway.
Though some coeliacs dispute this, saying even the low gluten ones, over time cause damage to their intestines
There are recipes out there for gluten free breads. Our congregation makes a loaf which we share with everyone. Personally, speaking, we have used loafs for such a long time whenever I go to a congregation that has the regular wafers, I often find them cardboardy and dry too.
Using only gluten-free does indeed seem to be a sensible approach!
Have you ever tasted those things? I've been given one by mistake a few times, and the taste and texture are a distraction from what I'm supposed to be concentrating on while at the Altar Rail.
If, through some mischance, someone needs gluten-free, but suitable bread/wafer is not to hand, they could receive Communion in one kind (i.e. the wine) only. The Sacrament would be just as valid.
IJ
If communicants have been receiving by intinction, bread crumbs get into the wine. Many people with celiac disease cannot receive the wine in those cases.
In all honesty, no, I have never AFAIK tasted gluten-free bread or wafers, so your comment is a fair one, and I stand corrected.
Noted, also, re intinction (a practice I personally do not favour). We do have one or two regulars who do intinct, so perhaps it might (if we have folk with coeliac disease) be in order to have a quiet word with them beforehand.
O dear - what a Thorny Thicket this all is!
But, given present-day medical knowledge, a Thicket that cannot be cut down willy-nilly, or skirted around as though it didn't exist!
Some coeliac disease sufferers are affected by as little as 20 parts per million, I am told. We provide gluten-free wafers and a small separate chalice. We keep the wafers in an airtight container, (you could supplant that with a dehumidifying sachet) and we don’t have s problem with them going stale. We have half a dozen regular or semi-regular worshippers who need gluten free together with occasional visitors who are glad to find it routinely available. Even if none of our gluten-free regulars is present I will usually put out at least a couple of gluten-free wafers. I end up reverently consuming quite a few myself. I don’t like them much, but they’re harmless.
I reckon that, even if you do appear to have to 'waste' a few non-used gluten-free wafers, that's more than outweighed by the spiritual benefit imparted to those who need them.
As in most things liturgical and pastoral, common-sense is your best friend, and how you deal with this, or any other issue, depends on your circumstances.
One thing to note is that while this ought not be the regular way of distribution, people do not get any 'less Christ' by only communicating under one species.
The gluten free wafers I have had are almost exactly the same as the regular ones in terms of taste and texture. Years ago, there was a big difference though. A separate cup is necessary if you have people with true celiac disease.
We do have them available*. They are kept on a separate paten. We also have small green cards which a person can take to the Altar rail to indicate that they prefer gluten-free.
*which is how I received them "by mistake" on a few occasions before we started the separate paten.
We use some gluten-free wafers in the Church of Norway and they taste and feel like a mixture of cardboard and papier-mâché.
You mean as compared how regular Communion wafers taste and feel like a mixture of paper-mâché and styrofoam?
I have done some research and there is a low-gluten wafer that is much better - it is properly wheat - and it can be consumed not only by those who (have deluded themselves into thinking they) have 'gluten intolerance' (courtesy of Dr. Google) but also those who have the actual celiacs decease, according to the organisation of celiacs in Norway.
With regard to Dt. Google’s gluten intolerance, yes, there are those people. There are also those people (again, my wife being one), who have paid attention to how they feel when they consume something with gluten compared to how they feel when they do not, and who have been been advised by their actual doctors to avoid gluten. I’m not sure what is accomplished by the clergy’s pooh-poohing of that medical advice.
‘A breadcrumb won’t hurt someone with coeliac disease’...myth
Even very small amounts of gluten can be damaging to people with coeliac disease. Therefore, taking sensible steps to avoid cross contamination with gluten is important.
Top tips include:
keep cooking utensils separate during food preparation and cooking
avoid frying food in the same oil that has previously been used to cook foods which contain gluten
use a clean grill, separate toaster or toaster bags to make gluten-free toast
use separate breadboards and wash surfaces thoroughly
use separate condiments like jam, butter, mustard and mayonnaise.
My daughter is this bad and I know how ill she gets if she gets a crumb in her diet. Let's believe coeliacs when they say gluten free wafers and/or bread are required.
I have gluten free bread at home, tend to have bread for me and bread for my daughter as I'd rather not eat the gluten-free given the choice, I can taste the difference and the texture isn't great.
Let's believe coeliacs when they say gluten free wafers and/or bread are required.
And this.
I have gluten free bread at home, tend to have bread for me and bread for my daughter as I'd rather not eat the gluten-free given the choice, I can taste the difference and the texture isn't great.
Hopefully the situation is improving. I’ve certainly had some horrid gluten-free bread, and that’s part of the challenge in moving to only using gluten-free bread for Communion.
But I’ve also had some really good gluten-free bread. There's a Mediterranean bakery/deli in our area that put some significant effort into developing a recipe for gluten-free pita bread (and to making sure they had a proper facility to bake it in). That’s what we’ve used for Communion recently. It’s very good.
Meanwhile, I can't watch Barbara Bush's funeral on TV this morning as I'll be on the road. I hope someone watches it and reports on it -- or better still, perhaps there will be a Mystery Worshipper among the invited guests. St. Martin's certainly looks like a beautiful church. It was Mystery Worshipped here.
My miscellaneous question would be: Will the service follow the standard Prayer Book ritual or will it be homespun -- or a mixture of both?
Comments
Thank you for the wonderful variety of brilliant mental images! From the (law-breaking) fire in the park with accompanying (excessive) chanting to the champagne in the crypt! I am partial to our regular 8am BCP service so have sort of pictured it as being a bit like that - quiet and thoughtful with maybe an extra sense of empty tomb early in the morning. Low key is fine by me. But Bishop's Fingers service sounds v impressive (would definitely get out of bed for that!) and I suspect there are bacon rolls. Which might be the hardest part actually. But yes indeed....
No. No. No. (smh.)
What a ruining of a perfectly good butty.
Did you not ask for a bottle to go? Seriously, that sounds very respectable and just the sort of thing I might enjoy.
Ours (at my bishop's monastery - Western Orthodox) is in the evening and in two parts: the Office of readings & canticles, followed by the blessing of the New Fire and Paschal Candle (complete with Exultet, Angloid will be pleased to read). If we had any baptisms they would follow here. Then we gather again later on in the evening for Paschal Vigils, followed by the Mass of the Resurrection.
Vigils is great. It essentially follows the classical structure of the western monastic night office of Vigils but each of the three nocturns takes the form of the paschal strophes of St John of Damascus (sung at speed, and with Alleluias, liberal censings, and shouted greetings of "Christ est ressuscité!, with various familiar texts thrown in, such as Victimae Paschali Laudes, and the paschal troparion.
Tomorrow night's experience should more than make up for the disappointment.
There was a Moravian settlement a stone's throw from where I used to live, with a nearby church still active. I wonder what their custom is at this time of year. Sadly, the days when I lived there were at a time in my life when I wouldn't have been open to the experience. Now that I am, it isn't an option.
There's no need to feel daft for going away and learning something new. It's what makes us know we're still living.
I inherited a real liturgical mishmash in this parish where one of my predecessors appeared to have gone over to Rome in all but actually handing in his orders. It has taken some time to work out what the parish expects in terms of liturgical and ritual flourishes.
It never occurred to me to omit the Gloria in the BCP in Lent. It is not my tradition so I follow the rubrics.
No maniple either
I think you'll find Our Lady intended that Bloody Mary ketchup should be consumed with bacon butties.
IJ
They're just two sides of the same coin. They're both nasty and neither one has any business being near food expected to be consumed by human beings.
When was the Collect introduced? Was it there from the early days? Just reading some, and wondering.
(Actually, I think a 'collect', in the sense of a prayer, made up by the celebrant, to focus people's thoughts at the beginning of the Eucharist, is very ancient, though the formal prayers we use today are much later.)
IJ
As for the sauce debate, bring it on. I'm ready.
My own question:
I want to buy an alb. This looks good but is very inexpensive compared to the other ecclesiatical suppliers' wares and I'm wondering whether that might be a reflection of the quality. Does anybody have any experience of this alb from Vanpoulles?
I could do with a new alb myself....
Meanwhile, BROWN for Bacon Butties is the new War-Cry, and RED for Sausage Sandwiches!! Let no quarter be shewn, and let the faggots arranged around the stake BURN fiercely!!
IJ
Those days when the Roman emperors forced Christians to eat bacon butties with brown sauce.
I now return you to the Great Sauce War of MMXVIII in which I play the part of Switzerland, not having any.
Please don't burn the faggots, they never taste nice like that. But need gravy on them
I've got one- bought about 10 years ago (not heavily used since) It's fine.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Thank you. I've ordered one.
Just wondering.
Why don't you write the rector of All Souls, Langham Place to ask?
Hehe.
You're naughty.
However, jokes aside, the parish registers of years gone by might just provide some insight.
So, do what do you do (if at all) about such people? I've checked out the rice crackers at the supermarket and, to be frank, am not terribly impressed. But I don't want to pay for expensive wafers that will only be used from time to time and where most of them will go off before they're needed.
At our place, we've recently made the decision to use only gluten-free bread. We have a few members with celiac, and we have others (including Ms. Tamen) who don't have celiac but who do have gluten sensitivity. Because of where we're located (near a college campus), we also can anticipate having others whose needs we don't know—in other words, it's not just a matter of knowing that we have x number of celiacs in the congregation and planning for them and only them.
We normally administer the elements at stations—usually 3 in the front of the nave and one in the back. (The person in the back can also serve people unable to move out of the pew to commune.) Our prior practice was that the center station in the front had gluten free bread. We found that many went to that station simply because it was the convenient one when it was their turn. Also family of the members with celiacs tended to go with their family member. But it could also be awkward, say for someone sitting in the back who couldn't commune with the rest of the people in the pew where they were sitting because they needed to come to the front for gluten-free bread. On those occasions, usually a few times a year, when we service in the pews, it got even more complicated.
This required instruction, of course, so that those who needed it knew where the gluten-free bread was. And however nicely stated, the instruction could come off a little as "you people who need special bread, here's how to get it." So we decided that the truly welcoming practice was to make all the bread gluten-free.
I realize this option isn't available in some communions/traditions, where restrictions on ingredients come into play. That's not an issue for us. I realize, too, that doing this needs to be manageable budget-wise, and that some gluten-free breads don't lend themselves to use at Communion (particularly if intinction is the/a method of communing), and that not all gluten-free breads are created equal taste-wise. (And we think Communion bread should taste good.) We don't use wafers, and we're fortunate that good, cost-appropriate options are readily available around us. Plus we have some good bakers in the congregation who can provide some good bread.
Since we've starting using only gluten-free bread, I have heard a few of our members who need gluten-free bread say how much they appreciate not feeling like they're singled out as needing special consideration.
Just a thought.
How would anyone be able to tell if they're "off"? They're usually incredibly cardboard like at the best of times.
Someone's obviously done some joined-up thinking...
AFAIK, we've never had anyone needing gluten-free at Our Place, though, if we did, I might suggest we opt for all gluten-free (with a little note on our pew-sheet or service book to that effect, so folk don't need to ask).
If, through some mischance, someone needs gluten-free, but suitable bread/wafer is not to hand, they could receive Communion in one kind (i.e. the wine) only. The Sacrament would be just as valid.
IJ
If communicants have been receiving by intinction, bread crumbs get into the wine. Many people with celiac disease cannot receive the wine in those cases.
Though some coeliacs dispute this, saying even the low gluten ones, over time cause damage to their intestines
In all honesty, no, I have never AFAIK tasted gluten-free bread or wafers, so your comment is a fair one, and I stand corrected.
Noted, also, re intinction (a practice I personally do not favour). We do have one or two regulars who do intinct, so perhaps it might (if we have folk with coeliac disease) be in order to have a quiet word with them beforehand.
O dear - what a Thorny Thicket this all is!
But, given present-day medical knowledge, a Thicket that cannot be cut down willy-nilly, or skirted around as though it didn't exist!
IJ
As in most things liturgical and pastoral, common-sense is your best friend, and how you deal with this, or any other issue, depends on your circumstances.
IJ
*which is how I received them "by mistake" on a few occasions before we started the separate paten.
With regard to Dt. Google’s gluten intolerance, yes, there are those people. There are also those people (again, my wife being one), who have paid attention to how they feel when they consume something with gluten compared to how they feel when they do not, and who have been been advised by their actual doctors to avoid gluten. I’m not sure what is accomplished by the clergy’s pooh-poohing of that medical advice.
I'd rather take note of people who are there and make sure they feel safe recieving communion.
Reading around and the research that the 'safe' level is based on is just one very small study..
I have gluten free bread at home, tend to have bread for me and bread for my daughter as I'd rather not eat the gluten-free given the choice, I can taste the difference and the texture isn't great.
And this.
Hopefully the situation is improving. I’ve certainly had some horrid gluten-free bread, and that’s part of the challenge in moving to only using gluten-free bread for Communion.
But I’ve also had some really good gluten-free bread. There's a Mediterranean bakery/deli in our area that put some significant effort into developing a recipe for gluten-free pita bread (and to making sure they had a proper facility to bake it in). That’s what we’ve used for Communion recently. It’s very good.
My miscellaneous question would be: Will the service follow the standard Prayer Book ritual or will it be homespun -- or a mixture of both?
Not all coeliacs agree with their association/society, they would disagree about the low gluten being safe for them