Purgatory: 2024 U.S. Presidential Election Thread (Epiphanies rules apply)

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  • Perhaps, Martin, you can stop mocking my anxiety. God knows I'm sorry I mentioned it, as you can't seem to keep off the topic.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Well, maybe this will ease Lamb Chop's anxiety. The Daily News is reporting that Nikki Hayley is within 4 percentage points in the most recent New Hampshire primary poll. Unfortunately, I am not able to read the full article (paywall).

    If this is true, that means she is close to the margin of error. It means she will be getting a second look from Republicans as the Don still flounders in the courts. She also has the support of some powerful Republican PACs such as the Koch foundation.

    I am betting if Nikki can beat Don in the New Hampshire race, more primaries will go her way.

    Haley's strategy seems to be to do well in New Hampshire to create momentum going into her home state of South Carolina, which is the next primary after New Hampshire. Unlike a lot of other states, the Republican primary in New Hampshire awards delegates proportionally (among candidates who win at least 10% of the total vote), so if Haley wins delegates in that state it's something to build a narrative on going into South Carolina.

    And that is my point. If Nikki can get within say, 10% of the Don in New Hampshire, it will show Don is not as invincible as he likes to think of himself. It will give people in other states permission to take another look at Nikki. It would help if all the other candidates put their support behind Nikki as well.

    No, Nikki is still not ideal, but she is the lesser of two evils on the Republican side.

  • I wonder in what way this women's rights thief is better than Trump?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    She's not under criminal indictment anywhere. She has not been accused of raping anyone. She hasn't publicly mocked disabled people. I'm not aware of any viciously racist statements coming out of her mouth. Etc, etc - i.e., she's not Trump. And one positive thing: she opposed Trump's Muslim ban in 2017.

    I wouldn't be the least but happy if she were elected, but she'd accept the loss if it went that way. Not a high bar, but it never is when the comparison is to Trump.
  • Yep, she's street legal. For a fascist.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Yep, she's street legal. For a fascist.

    Prove it
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Yep, she's street legal. For a fascist.

    Prove it

    That's for the prosecution.
  • @Martin, you called Nikki a fascist. Back it up. Show us how you have determined she is a fascist. That is a political determination, not a crime per se.
  • She took away women's rights. That's fascist in my book. Evil.
  • Perhaps, Martin, you can stop mocking my anxiety. God knows I'm sorry I mentioned it, as you can't seem to keep off the topic.

    I'm not. You're bringing more than anxiety to this. Perhaps the hosts will declare Epiphanies rules here.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    On the basis it’s Christmas, and the world could use more kindness; @Martin54 - no more personal comments about @Lamb Chopped

    Doublethink, Admin
  • Thank you.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2023
    Martin54 wrote: »
    She took away women's rights. That's fascist in my book. Evil.

    I think Haley, like most Republicans these days, is a far-right ideologue who will pander to theocrats by rolling back the rights of women and other groups. I don't think that precisely fits the technical definition of fascism(otherwise we'd have to apply the term to, say, the Saudi royal family, and I don't), but you can use whatever terms you want.

    My one caution is that saying "fascism" DOES get you into the whole PoliSci debate about what is and isn't fascism, which might end up being kind of a diversion which GOP apologists can exploit to divert you from getting to the meat of your argument. Whereas just saying "They're theocrats who want to outlaw women's reproductive choices in order to force their personal religious beliefs on everyone" more directly references what THEY propose as policies, thus forcing THEM to explain why your description of them is inaccurate.

    I mean, anti-choice policies have been voted down everywhere they've been put to a ballot since Dobbs. I don't think it was pivotal to the rallying of those majorities(*) that any hecklers kept shouting "But they're actually FASCISTS!!" every time someone at a pro-choice rally enumerated the problem with anti-choicers and their thinking.

    (*) And please don't post just to say that it shoulda 100% everywhere and it's "unbelievable" that it wasn't. Yes, we all know America isn't the shining city on a hill.
  • Nikki takes a conservative approach to women's rights, but that is not faschism.

    You might not know this, but Nikki's opposition to abortion stems from her own difficulty conceiving. Yes, she has a son and daughter, but she had previous problems. That, and her husband is an adoptee. See this report.

    If you look at her professional and political life, you will see she is a trailblazer when it comes to women's rights. She is the first woman to be elected as governor of South Carolina, and she is the first person of color to be elected governor.

    When she ran for governor a women's rights group asked her to pledge half her cabinet would be women. She refused. She said she will name people she felt best qualified for cabinet jobs regardless of whether they were male or female.

    She hs pledged for immigration reform, but she is not one who is talking about how immigrants are polluting the blood of America---which is a key sign of fascism in my book.

    Yes, she is conservative, but I believe she is a rational person.

    That said, I would likely not vote for her, but it is not because she is a white nationalist.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2023
    @Gramps49

    I would take Haley's biographical explanation for her abortion stance with a grain of salt. She's not gonna come out and say "I oppose abortion because it's a good way to get votes from religious conservatives."

    And I don't quite follow the logic of "I can't conceive, so I don't want anyone to have an abortion."
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    If you look at her professional and political life, you will see she is a trailblazer when it comes to women's rights. She is the first woman to be elected as governor of South Carolina, and she is the first person of color to be elected governor.

    When she ran for governor a women's rights group asked her to pledge half her cabinet would be women. She refused. She said she will name people she felt best qualified for cabinet jobs regardless of whether they were male or female.

    She's not a trailblazer for women's rights. She's a beneficiary of the work of feminists in earlier generations. She hasn't done a damn thing for other women.
  • stetson wrote: »
    @Gramps49

    I would take Haley's biographical explanation for her abortion stance with a grain of salt. She's not gonna come out and say "I oppose abortion because it's a good way to get votes from religious conservatives."

    And I don't quite follow the logic of "I can't conceive, so I don't want anyone to have an abortion."

    It is not that she could not conceive, it is that she had difficulty conceiving. To use her logic, she is thinking of women who can't but who want a baby, a family. She believes other women would love to adopt babies.

    I know it does not work that way in reality.

    Look, I am not in favor of her stance, just pointing out where she is coming from. I know there are many medical procedures that depend on the therapeutic need for abortion.

    Martin called her a fascist because she opposes abortion. That was what I was reacting too. Look at my last comment. She is not saying the blood of immigrants pollute American blood. Her parents immigrated from India, for pete's sake. She is not a white nationalist. That is the sign of a fascist. To my knowledge there is only one candidate who admits he is a white nationalist.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Here in the UK of our last five Home Secretaries (six if you count Suella Braverman twice) four have had at least one parent who was an immigrant. None have been notably welcoming to immigrants, and Patel, Braverman, and Cleverly have been egregiously hostile even by the standards of modern British politics. Braverman's mix of authoritarian politics and dislike of the rule of law is close to unambiguously pro-fascist parties across Europe.
    It is not unknown for right-wing politicians with immigrant backgrounds to adopt more nationalist than thou political stances
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    @Gramps49

    I would take Haley's biographical explanation for her abortion stance with a grain of salt. She's not gonna come out and say "I oppose abortion because it's a good way to get votes from religious conservatives."

    And I don't quite follow the logic of "I can't conceive, so I don't want anyone to have an abortion."

    It is not that she could not conceive, it is that she had difficulty conceiving. To use her logic, she is thinking of women who can't but who want a baby, a family. She believes other women would love to adopt babies.

    I know it does not work that way in reality.

    Look, I am not in favor of her stance, just pointing out where she is coming from. I know there are many medical procedures that depend on the therapeutic need for abortion.

    Martin called her a fascist because she opposes abortion. That was what I was reacting too. Look at my last comment. She is not saying the blood of immigrants pollute American blood. Her parents immigrated from India, for pete's sake. She is not a white nationalist. That is the sign of a fascist. To my knowledge there is only one candidate who admits he is a white nationalist.

    I think you might want to be a bit careful about the idea that being of immigrant descent is an antidote to being a fascist. I'm not saying Haley is or isn't, but it's worth comparing with the right-wing authoritarian tendencies of the likes of Suella Braverman in the UK, who is also of South Asian descent. Their background means they get a more muted reaction to the hateful rhetoric they use than white people saying the same things, so they're useful to the far right to push fascist ideas into the mainstream.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    @Gramps49

    I would take Haley's biographical explanation for her abortion stance with a grain of salt. She's not gonna come out and say "I oppose abortion because it's a good way to get votes from religious conservatives."

    And I don't quite follow the logic of "I can't conceive, so I don't want anyone to have an abortion."

    It is not that she could not conceive, it is that she had difficulty conceiving. To use her logic, she is thinking of women who can't but who want a baby, a family. She believes other women would love to adopt babies.

    I know it does not work that way in reality.

    Look, I am not in favor of her stance, just pointing out where she is coming from. I know there are many medical procedures that depend on the therapeutic need for abortion.

    Martin called her a fascist because she opposes abortion. That was what I was reacting too. Look at my last comment. She is not saying the blood of immigrants pollute American blood. Her parents immigrated from India, for pete's sake. She is not a white nationalist. That is the sign of a fascist. To my knowledge there is only one candidate who admits he is a white nationalist.

    I think you might want to be a bit careful about the idea that being of immigrant descent is an antidote to being a fascist. I'm not saying Haley is or isn't, but it's worth comparing with the right-wing authoritarian tendencies of the likes of Suella Braverman in the UK, who is also of South Asian descent. Their background means they get a more muted reaction to the hateful rhetoric they use than white people saying the same things, so they're useful to the far right to push fascist ideas into the mainstream.

    She does want to limit immigration. But she is not saying immigrants will pollute the bloodlines of Americans. That has been a white nationalist canard ever since Hitler said it. Democrats, for that matter, would like to see a more orderly process of allowing immigration. That too will be limiting.

    Immigration itself will be a topic of discussion on a separate thread.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Xenophobia is not inherently better than racism.
  • From Open AI

    There is a difference between racism and xenophobia. Xenophobia is the fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything designated as foreign. It is an extreme, intense fear and dislike of customs, cultures, and people considered strange, unusual, or unknown Racism, on the other hand, is a belief that racial differences produce the inherent superiority of a particular race. Although they are similar, they are different enough that it is possible for one to be both xenophobic and racist.

    To elaborate further, xenophobia is a fear and contempt of strangers or foreigners or of anything designated as foreign. It is an extreme, intense fear and dislike of customs, cultures, and people considered strange, unusual, or unknown. The term itself comes from Greek, where “phobos” means fear and “xenos” can mean stranger, foreigner, or outsider. Xenophobia can manifest as hostility toward immigrants, but it can also manifest as hatred toward members of another tribe, culture, or religion.

    Racism, on the other hand, is a belief that racial differences produce the inherent superiority of a particular race. It is a belief that one race is superior to another and the discrimination that results from that belief. Racism can manifest in many ways, including prejudice, discrimination, and stereotyping. It can be directed at individuals or groups based on their race, ethnicity, or skin color.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I know what it means, my point was that the candidate could be xenophobic regardless of her heritage.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited December 2023
    BTW Xenophobia can be classified as an anxiety disorder.
  • According to Merriam-Webster:

    fascism: a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted.

    I don't see that most social issues are inherently involved. I suggest a search for other ugly epithets to use in dismissing those with whom we disagree.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    From Open AI

    Did you get that whole thing from ChatGPT?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2023
    HarryCH wrote: »
    According to Merriam-Webster:

    fascism: a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted.

    I don't see that most social issues are inherently involved. I suggest a search for other ugly epithets to use in dismissing those with whom we disagree.

    Right. Because anti-choicers in Ireland won a referendum in 1983 to prohibit any future liberalization of the abortion laws. But the country had no significant ban on political opposition, and the economy was largely free-market with independent unions.

    There IS also a school-of-thought(Paxton etc) which holds that the distinguishing feature of fascism as opposed to standard conservative-authoritainism is the promulgation of a sense of revolutionary fervour, intended to steal thunder from the left. By that definition, 1970s Ireland and even Salazar's Portugal or Franco's Spain would NOT qualify(and, in fact, Paxton argues they do not), while MAGA, in fact, would qualify, or at least come closer.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    From Open AI
    AI is not a reliable source. It just scrapes and plagiarises the internet without evaluation.
    Moreover - this being a discussion board - you cannot ask it to explain how it reached its conclusions: if you try it just regurgitates a different block of text.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited December 2023
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    BTW Xenophobia can be classified as an anxiety disorder.

    I work in mental health, it is not classed as a mental disorder in any reputable diagnostic classification system.

    Some people who are anxious, are also xenophobic - some people who are not anxious are also xenophobic.
  • stetson wrote: »
    HarryCH wrote: »
    According to Merriam-Webster:

    fascism: a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted.

    I don't see that most social issues are inherently involved. I suggest a search for other ugly epithets to use in dismissing those with whom we disagree.

    Right. Because anti-choicers in Ireland won a referendum in 1983 to prohibit any future liberalization of the abortion laws. But the country had no significant ban on political opposition, and the economy was largely free-market with independent unions.

    There IS also a school-of-thought(Paxton etc) which holds that the distinguishing feature of fascism as opposed to standard conservative-authoritainism is the promulgation of a sense of revolutionary fervour, intended to steal thunder from the left. By that definition, 1970s Ireland and even Salazar's Portugal or Franco's Spain would NOT qualify(and, in fact, Paxton argues they do not), while MAGA, in fact, would qualify, or at least come closer.

    That is, to me, the salient feature of MAGA and why it ticks more fascist boxes than other American political movements. It's part of a wider tendency of the American right to usurp leftist tactics successfully. That's one the Left for letting their tactics be used against them.

  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    BTW Xenophobia can be classified as an anxiety disorder.

    I work in mental health, it is not classed as a mental disorder in any reputable diagnostic classification system.

    Some people who are anxious, are also xenophobic - some people who are not anxious are also xenophobic.

    Xenophobia is a specific phobia, which is a type of anxiety disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edition (DSM-5) 1. People with xenophobia experience significant, sudden anxiety and distress when they are around strangers. They often go out of their way to avoid seeing, interacting with, or even thinking about strangers. This type of avoidance can negatively affect major aspects of day-to-day life. For example, someone with xenophobia may find it hard to function normally at work or in social situations/
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    From Open AI
    AI is not a reliable source. It just scrapes and plagiarises the internet without evaluation.
    Moreover - this being a discussion board - you cannot ask it to explain how it reached its conclusions: if you try it just regurgitates a different block of text.

    I am not writing a research paper. I posted that right before I went to Sunday Services.

    The point I it makes is that Xenophobia is more the fear of strangers taking over people's jobs. Back before our civil war, many Irish immigrants came to the US primarily because of the potato farmers. People reacted to the wave because of fear they would take over middle class jobs. Nor right away, but eventually. Same reaction when the Italians came over.

    Fascism, though claims the superiority of one race over the other. There has long been a attitude of white superiority over blacks in America. Heaven forbid a black man would impregnate a white women. It does not count white men screwing black women, though.

    To be sure fascists will appeal to xenophobics for support, but there the key difference is the argument of superiority of one race over another.

    @HarryCH

    You wrote:
    According to Merriam-Webster:

    fascism: a political system headed by a dictator in which the government controls business and labor and opposition is not permitted.

    You might want to read Kershaw, Ian (2016). To Hell and Back: Europe 1914–1949. New York: Penguin Books. pp. 228–232

    Kershaw says there are three essential marks of fascism, hypernationalism, racial superiority, and militarianism. When I look at the fascist organizations in my area (and Northern Idaho is known for fascist organizations) there is strong hypernationalism-they love to parade around with American flags, and White Nationalist Banners, including the swastika. Definite racial superiority (one local guy wrote a book about how slavery was good for the "colored"); and, boy, do they like to parade around in their militia uniforms with their phallic symbols, otherwise known as guns.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Just because xenophobia has the word phobia in it, doesn’t mean it is a specific phobia - any more than homophobia is a clinical condition.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    From Open AI

    Did you get that whole thing from ChatGPT?

    I reiterate my query.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Nikki takes a conservative approach to women's rights, but that is not faschism.

    You might not know this, but Nikki's opposition to abortion stems from her own difficulty conceiving. Yes, she has a son and daughter, but she had previous problems. That, and her husband is an adoptee. See this report.

    If you look at her professional and political life, you will see she is a trailblazer when it comes to women's rights. She is the first woman to be elected as governor of South Carolina, and she is the first person of color to be elected governor.

    When she ran for governor a women's rights group asked her to pledge half her cabinet would be women. She refused. She said she will name people she felt best qualified for cabinet jobs regardless of whether they were male or female.

    She hs pledged for immigration reform, but she is not one who is talking about how immigrants are polluting the blood of America---which is a key sign of fascism in my book.

    Yes, she is conservative, but I believe she is a rational person.

    That said, I would likely not vote for her, but it is not because she is a white nationalist.

    I'll stop calling her a fascist for abolishing millions of women's rights, causing enormous real anguish, if you retract the utter absurdity that she is a trailblazer when it comes to women's rights, whilst doing the former and being 'meritocratic' with political appointments.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    I'll stop calling her a fascist for abolishing millions of women's rights, causing enormous real anguish, if you retract the utter absurdity that she is a trailblazer when it comes to women's rights, whilst doing the former and being 'meritocratic' with political appointments.

    I could live with this settlement.
  • Gramps, don't argue with me. Argue with Merriam-Webster.
  • HarryCH wrote: »
    Gramps, don't argue with me. Argue with Merriam-Webster.

    I am not arguing with Merriam Webster. I am saying you have not looked more deeply into the marks of fascism. Fascism did not start as a government. It was derived from a movement. Look at the movement behind the government.

    @Martin54. Okay, Nikki is not a trailblazer for women's rights.

    @Ruth. I cited my source. Better than some people around here.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    HarryCH wrote: »
    Gramps, don't argue with me. Argue with Merriam-Webster.

    I am not arguing with Merriam Webster. I am saying you have not looked more deeply into the marks of fascism. Fascism did not start as a government. It was derived from a movement. Look at the movement behind the government.

    @Martin54. Okay, Nikki is not a trailblazer for women's rights.

    @Ruth. I cited my source. Better than some people around here.

    Fair enough, then she is not a (non-colloquial) fascist.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited December 2023
    I looked up fascism in Mariam Webster. Lo and behold, what did I find?
    often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race (emphasis mine) above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
    Only one mark not expressly mentioned: militarianism, but implied.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    @Ruth. I cited my source.

    OpenAI is not a source. It's a large language model that draws on unattributed sources.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    OpenAI is not a source. It's a large language model that draws on unattributed sources.
    To be fair, much as AI is not a source and should not be treated as such, and is essentially a form of plagiarism, explaining the connection between concepts is probably the thing it is least bad at.

  • Didn't I say I am not writing a research paper here? I used it as a quick reply to Doublethink's linking xenophobia to fascism.
  • I'd be personally grateful if people could avoid treating AI text as if it were curated and trustworthy. AI is basically spicy autocorrect, as my son says, and there's a known problem with it throwing in a falsehood or ten--and then doubling down when you query it about the problem. Dictionary.com just made "hallucinate" (in the context of AI text) their word of the year--with the meaning “to produce false information contrary to the intent of the user and present it as if true and factual.” This happens a lot.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    @Gramps49 when use a reference source please remember to indicate it is a quote, this post should have had a credit for Verywell Health.

    We haven’t previously had a policy on referencing AI such as ChatGP. However, as an interim ruling (we will further discuss this further) AI programs should not be used as a source for serious discussion such as Purgatory or Epiphanies. (Used on any other forum for entertainment, please clearly indicate its use and ideally what you told it to get the output you are posting.)

    The reason for this, is that the AI is simply using an algorithm to scrape the internet for content - there is no guarantee anything posted is factually accurate and we would prefer not to potentially spread misinformation.

    Doublethink, Admin
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    One person I know has registered Republican in order to vote against Trump in the primary. I did that back in 2000 to vote against George W. Bush, but the California primary turned out to be too late to matter that year. This year we vote on Super Tuesday, so I may again switch my registration. I'll get the Republican mailings for a while, but I can throw them away as easily as I do the Democrats' stuff.
  • Remember when Trump got punked in Tulsa, OK? His campaign was giving out tickets for what was billed as he greatest speech ever. Thousands of young people on Tik Tok started calling, asking for tickets. It looked like he would have not only a full stadium, but he would have satellite venues throughout the city. Turns out, there were more reporters than Trump supporters at that rally. He flew back to DC a very angry man.

    That's what needs to happen at the Republican primaries. Thousands need to register as Republican and vote for Nikki to keep Trump from getting nominated.

    Here in Washington State, we vote for the top two, no matter party affiliation. Trump will never get my vote.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Here in Washington State, we vote for the top two, no matter party affiliation.
    Not in the presidential primary.

  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    It works the same way in California - we have top-two primaries for everything but presidential elections. We tried to have non-partisan blanket primaries for president, but the Supreme Court said it violates the First Amendment right of association; party nominees shouldn’t be selected by non-party members: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Democratic_Party_v._Jones. It's fine for state-wide offices, I presume because California law governs those, but voters in California are not allowed to help determine the national nominee for a political party of which they're not members.
  • Well, I did the deed. I am now a Repugnican.
This discussion has been closed.