Bells on bikes

EirenistEirenist Shipmate
Not sure if Heaven is the right place to raise this, but in the lost days of yore, when I was young, all bicycles had to be fitted with a bell or other means of giving audible warning of approach - I think it was a legal requirement, and we had bike inspections at school to check this and general roadworthiness. It seems that with the revival of cycling this requirement has gone by the board, and I wonder why. I know it has been said that all cyclists have voices, but they rarely seem to use them to give warning, assuming they have breath to spare. I speak as an elderly gent who has twice recently nearly been run down by cycle riders approaching silently and at speed from behind on a narrrow footpath. A protest doen not elicit a civil response.
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Comments

  • Isabelle necessary on a bicycle?

    Bloody hell, yes!

    Agree as this old gal has nearly been taken out on more than one occasion by a MAMIL ( middle aged man in Lycra) with an inappropriate sense of entitlement ( usually running a red light)
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I did once have an approaching cyclist, of whom I was unaware, ring his bell. But, besides being deaf, the sound was so unfamiliar that I didn't immediately connect to its purpose.

    But, yeah, mostly they just swerve past you, swearing at you for the crime of being old, slow, carrying shopping - evil stuff like that.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    It's a requirement that they're fitted at point of sale. It's not - and never has been - a requirement to have one in use.

    Please can we not have anti-cycling bingo in Heaven? It's wearing, everyone knows what some people on bikes do, and it's thrown repeatedly at anyone who dares ride a bike as if we're somehow all responsible for what some other people using the same form of transport do. Many motorists speed but we don't hold every driver responsible for them.

    I tend not to have a bell because IME two things happen when I use one:

    1. Totally ignored
    2. Given abuse for implying people should get out of my way by actually ringing it.

    Having said that, I mostly ride dedicated MTB trails and on road. Most "shared infrastructure" in the UK is crap and invites conflict.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    If I were really Evil, and this were to happen to me, I would probably attempt to swipe the cyclist (or one of his wheels) with one of my crutches.

    Sorry, Officer - s/he caught me off balance, coming up on me silently like that...

    FWIW, I think this might indeed be more of a Hell thread...
    :naughty:
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    If I were really Evil, and this were to happen to me, I would probably attempt to swipe the cyclist (or one of his wheels) with one of my crutches.

    Sorry, Officer - s/he caught me off balance, coming up on me silently like that...

    FWIW, I think this might indeed be more of a Hell thread...
    :naughty:

    A woman did something like that recently. The cyclist died and she was convicted of manslaughter.

    Killing cyclists is not funny. Or perhaps you think it is?
  • Neither is the killing of pedestrians by cyclists, believe it or not.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Neither is the killing of pedestrians by cyclists, believe it or not.

    No, indeed not, but no-one here is advocating violent actions which risk that happening.

    Did you know that every year in the UK more pedestrians are killed by motor vehicles *specifically on pavements* than are killed by cyclists *in total*?

    The real danger of death for both cyclists and pedestrians comes from motor vehicles
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    FWIW, pavement cyclists and irresponsible shared use cyclists annoy me too, but I do like to maintain perspective on relative risk. At least the idiot is on a bike; he'd be statistically more likely to kill you if he were driving.

    Back to bells - I actually find a vocal warning more effective - "Excuse me - on your left!" seems to be interpreted less aggressively than a bell - perhaps people associate them with the way some drivers use horns - "Mr Toad coming through! Out of the way!".

    Proper segregation is the answer. Shared use can work if it's wide enough to have a pedestrian bit and a cyclist bit - but fully segregated is best. I used to advocate for vehicular cycling on the main carriageway but I've concluded that there are a significant if small minority of motorists whose hatred for cyclists will mean they will always endanger and shout abuse at us. And not a few so incompetent and distracted that they'll manage to be very nearly as dangerous without needing malice to help them along. In an ideal world both groups would lose their licences but that doesn’t happen.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I tend not to have a bell because IME two things happen when I use one:

    1. Totally ignored
    2. Given abuse for implying people should get out of my way by actually ringing it.

    Mate, if you rang a bell and cycled past me, I'd step aside, smile and say "thank you" and I'd sincerely mean it. It's what I do on the exceptionally rare occasions when someone takes the trouble to do this*. I'm sick of dark evenings where someone in dark clothing with no lights or helmets suddenly whizzes past me about 6" away on the pavement.

    * 3 in 22 years of this
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Ariel wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    I tend not to have a bell because IME two things happen when I use one:

    1. Totally ignored
    2. Given abuse for implying people should get out of my way by actually ringing it.

    Mate, if you rang a bell and cycled past me, I'd step aside, smile and say "thank you" and I'd sincerely mean it. It's what I do on the exceptionally rare occasions when someone takes the trouble to do this*. I'm sick of dark evenings where someone in dark clothing with no lights or helmets suddenly whizzes past me about 6" away on the pavement.

    * 3 in 22 years of this

    Which would be nice, but given the reponses I get, you might understand why I prefer to use my voice. It seems to get a better response.
  • Ariel wrote: »
    . I'm sick of dark evenings where someone in dark clothing with no lights or helmets suddenly whizzes past me about 6" away on the pavement.
    This. And, indeed, the road - don't they realise that other drivers can't see them?

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    Ariel wrote: »
    . I'm sick of dark evenings where someone in dark clothing with no lights or helmets suddenly whizzes past me about 6" away on the pavement.
    This. And, indeed, the road - don't they realise that other drivers can't see them?

    Well, if you know they're on the road, clearly you can see them ;)

    (That should not be interpreted as advocating cycling at night with no lights)
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    I actually shouted after one bloke one dark night "You need lights!" at which he stopped and said "What did you say?" and I thought: Oh God, he's going to thump me. But actually when I told him (quite calmly and gently) he needed lights he said I was absolutely right, thanked me for considering his safety, and said he would get some.

    I didn't believe a word of it but was just glad to have got out of there unharmed. Now I just let them go their own merry way and leave them to Fate.

    I think I'd respond better to the sound of a bell than someone shouting "Excuse me" at me from behind - coming from a strange male that can be potentially scary. At least you know instantly with a bell it's about a bike passing, not a pretext to stop you for some reason.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Ariel wrote: »
    I actually shouted after one bloke one dark night "You need lights!" at which he stopped and said "What did you say?" and I thought: Oh God, he's going to thump me. But actually when I told him (quite calmly and gently) he needed lights he said I was absolutely right, thanked me for considering his safety, and said he would get some.

    I didn't believe a word of it but was just glad to have got out of there unharmed. Now I just let them go their own merry way and leave them to Fate.

    I think I'd respond better to the sound of a bell than someone shouting "Excuse me" at me from behind - coming from a strange male that can be potentially scary. At least you know instantly with a bell it's about a bike passing, not a pretext to stop you for some reason.

    Which makes it rather difficult - I'm not psychic so can't tell what a stranger would prefer - so have to go with whatever causes the least friction, IME.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Well, if you know they're on the road, clearly you can see them ;)
    But, driving along, you don't know they're on the road unless you can see them. And, if they're wearing black and have neither lights nor reflectors, they can be very hard to see.

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    In Germany they have bike bells and use them. But there are so many more bikes and bike lanes there - hearing a warning bell is entirely normal.

    Here the infrastructure for bikes is so poor there are few bikes - and the sound of a bike bell is rare and confusing to most.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Well that's my point - if they were really invisible, you'd not know that unlit cyclists were in fact out there on the road ;)

    I agree with you about the lights and reflectors, but clothing not so much - do we also criticise cars for being black?
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    As a pedestrian, who often walks along narrow paths for both pedestrians and cyclists, I find bells can be used in quite a dangerous way. Plenty of cyclists ring their screechy-toned bells repeatedly, when they are right behind me, going quite fast, and I jump out of my skin. It's an unexpected, high-pitched, urgent-sounding noise right behind me, in a quiet rural area. And then I freeze or kind of stumble around, wondering which direction I should move to, and I feel very aware that if I go in the wrong direction, I could be knocked down. If they do it further back, and with a gentler, more dingle-y sounding bell, and are going more slowly, it's much easier. But the most effective way a cyclist signalled his presence was the elderly man who called out softly in a friendly, singsong voice 'Ding-a-ling-a-ling!' He was a bit of an eccentric, sitting bolt upright, waving to me as he passed as if he were royalty, and wishing me a good morning when it was in fact the middle of the afternoon - but it showed me how much easier it is to process and respond to a friendly voice than a bell.

    But equally, when I visit my dad and go for a riverside walk with him, he doesn't even hear the bells. I personally think that when pedestrians are on the path, cyclists should be cycling slowly enough to easily stop, and be prepared to get off their bike and walk with it around the pedestrians if needed.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    I agree with you about the lights and reflectors, but clothing not so much - do we also criticise cars for being black?
    No, but (i) they invariably do have lights; (b) are bigger and more obvious; and (c) the black is usually quite shiny and, hence, reflective.

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    If I were really Evil, and this were to happen to me, I would probably attempt to swipe the cyclist (or one of his wheels) with one of my crutches.

    Sorry, Officer - s/he caught me off balance, coming up on me silently like that...

    FWIW, I think this might indeed be more of a Hell thread...
    :naughty:

    A woman did something like that recently. The cyclist died and she was convicted of manslaughter.

    Killing cyclists is not funny. Or perhaps you think it is?

    Indeed I do not, and (seriously) I wouldn't really contemplate such a stupid action. I apologise for being unnecessarily flippant.

    OTOH, I do know a lot of sweary words, and I can shout VERY LOUDLY if need arises.

    Nota bene:
    I did say I thought this thread might be better suited to Hell, but that's up to the H&As, of course.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Well that's my point - if they were really invisible, you'd not know that unlit cyclists were in fact out there on the road ;)

    I agree with you about the lights and reflectors, but clothing not so much - do we also criticise cars for being black?

    Some people have better eyesight than others. My driving instructor once told me during a night-driving lesson that I'd come a bit too close to a blue car. To this day I have no memory of the car, only of a large cluster of deep dark shadows. I'm guessing the car was probably dark blue, which is easily confused with black, but anyway, I gave him a look and said, "It's dark. You can't see colours in the dark," before realizing that actually, he probably could. This sort of thing is one reason why I won't drive at night unless it's local and the route is brightly lit.

    For me personally black objects are the hardest to find when I'm looking for something, especially if they're on a dark background and there isn't much light. You might instantly spot them. It will take me longer.

    I mention this because people tend to assume that everyone shares their own physical perception of the world - that we will all see the same colours in the same way and at the same level of intensity. We don't. Also, we don't all hear certain frequencies in the same way either.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Back to bells - I actually find a vocal warning more effective - "Excuse me - on your left!" seems to be interpreted less aggressively than a bell - perhaps people associate them with the way some drivers use horns - "Mr Toad coming through! Out of the way!".
    Vocal alerts—“On your left!”—are the norm here. I can’t remember the last time I heard a bike bell, and I agree with @fineline that a bell is more jarring and less helpful. A bell at best simply says “bike here” and leaves me to guess as to the implications of that, while the vocal alert lets me know what to expect the biker to do and what I need to do.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Back to bells - I actually find a vocal warning more effective - "Excuse me - on your left!" seems to be interpreted less aggressively than a bell - perhaps people associate them with the way some drivers use horns - "Mr Toad coming through! Out of the way!".
    Vocal alerts—“On your left!”—are the norm here. I can’t remember the last time I heard a bike bell, and I agree with @fineline that a bell is more jarring and less helpful. A bell at best simply says “bike here” and leaves me to guess as to the implications of that, while the vocal alert lets me know what to expect the biker to do and what I need to do.

    I should add if you're sharing with horses their riders really do appreciate a vocal indication of where you are, IME!
  • I did notintend this to be an anti-bike rant thread. I am simply curious to know why bike bells (or, come to that, hooters) went out of fashion. And, incidentally, the narrow footpath to which I referred, was literally that - not a roadside pavement. The same sometimes occurs, far more dangerously, on the local canal towpath. Fortunately most cyclissts there are sensible enough to give warning, though not all.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    Back to bike bells, then, and I suppose that in the days when they were common there was (a) less traffic noise anyway, and (b) no-one walking along with their ear stuck to a mobile phone...
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Back to bells - I actually find a vocal warning more effective - "Excuse me - on your left!" seems to be interpreted less aggressively than a bell - perhaps people associate them with the way some drivers use horns - "Mr Toad coming through! Out of the way!".
    Vocal alerts—“On your left!”—are the norm here. I can’t remember the last time I heard a bike bell, and I agree with @fineline that a bell is more jarring and less helpful. A bell at best simply says “bike here” and leaves me to guess as to the implications of that, while the vocal alert lets me know what to expect the biker to do and what I need to do.
    I should add if you're sharing with horses their riders really do appreciate a vocal indication of where you are, IME!
    Same if you’re sharing with people walking dogs, which is often the case with me. I need to make sure dog and leash are out of the biker’s way.

  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    If someone shouted "On your left" at me I wouldn't immediately be clear what they meant (and it would be very unusual here).
  • Ariel wrote: »
    If someone shouted "On your left" at me I wouldn't immediately be clear what they meant (and it would be very unusual here).
    Well, the parenthetical bit is key, isn’t it? If it is common practice, then it’ll generally be immediately clear what it means. If it’s not common practice, it very well may not be immediately clear, at least the first few times one hears it.

  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited August 2023
    The point about earpods and phones is valid. You could be sounding a factory siren* and the aurally absorbed wouldn't hear you.

    *there's another sound has disappeared from the world.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    edited August 2023
    Speaking as a driver who is also a (fair-weather) cyclist, it really is much harder to see cyclists from inside a car, especially at night. I didn't realise until I learned to drive. And if you're driving you are going much faster than a bike (or a pedestrian) and need to be able to see the cyclist from further away. Lights also help you to judge distance and speed.

    When cycling I tend to shout 'excuse me' instead of ringing the bell, but my bell is one of those weird modern ones and I haven't fathomed how it works. 😳
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Ariel wrote: »
    If someone shouted "On your left" at me I wouldn't immediately be clear what they meant (and it would be very unusual here).
    Well, the parenthetical bit is key, isn’t it? If it is common practice, then it’ll generally be immediately clear what it means. If it’s not common practice, it very well may not be immediately clear, at least the first few times one hears it.

    And here where it is very normal, I much prefer it (as a rider or a walker) because it tells me where you are coming from besides just "at me"
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I did notintend this to be an anti-bike rant thread. I am simply curious to know why bike bells (or, come to that, hooters) went out of fashion. And, incidentally, the narrow footpath to which I referred, was literally that - not a roadside pavement. The same sometimes occurs, far more dangerously, on the local canal towpath. Fortunately most cyclissts there are sensible enough to give warning, though not all.

    There's also the fact that people are unpredictable - kids can leap out, a person may stumble and fall. A cyclist needs to be going slow enough to brake immediately. It seems safer to me, on a very narrow path, and particularly a canal path, for a cyclist to get off their bike and walk with it when there are pedestrians around. Or at least to pass them at a very slow speed. It's bikes that whizz past you on canal paths that are most dangerous, to my mind, regardless of whether they ring a bell, because if they're going very fast, they've passed you before you've had chance to fully process the bell sound and make a decision about where to move to.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    I wish they'd get off them on pedestrian crossings. I wouldn't have thought it was legal to cycle across them.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Ariel wrote: »
    I wish they'd get off them on pedestrian crossings. I wouldn't have thought it was legal to cycle across them.

    If they're not on a shared path it isn't. If they are, it is.

    What you have to remember is people cycle on pedestrian facilities because they're terrified of using the road. Sort out the poor driving and attitudes (a twenty mile ride will usually involve three or four close passes and being called a bucking funt (or something - it's hard to hear)) and get better segregated infrastructure and you will lose a lot of the pedestrian/cyclist conflict.
  • I thought @Ariel meant cyclists who ignore pedestrians crossing the road at a panda crossing (or whatever they're called now!). and who ride through willy-nilly, possibly narrowly missing said pedestrians.

    If the crossing is controlled by lights, the cyclists are probably going through a red, anyway.
  • It’s actually mandatory to have a bell on your bike in Ontario - well either that or a horn or gong. I have never seen a bike with a gong.

    Nothing special about bikes; they’re just included in the general category of vehicles that are required to have some kind of audible warning device. There was an enforcement blitz some years ago where fines for noncompliance were known as the no-bell prize.

    Etiquette around here seems to be evenly divided between ringing your bell and “on your left” if passing someone on a path. I tend to slow way down if I’m passing someone on a narrow path instead of doing either though I should really start getting into the habit of doing one or the other as well.

    One of the things Ms. Marsupial found most surprising when she was learning to drive is how hard it can be to see pedestrians etc. at night.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    I thought @Ariel meant cyclists who ignore pedestrians crossing the road at a panda crossing (or whatever they're called now!). and who ride through willy-nilly, possibly narrowly missing said pedestrians.

    If the crossing is controlled by lights, the cyclists are probably going through a red, anyway.

    I mean the ones who cycle across a zebra crossing to get from one side of the road to another, while you as a pedestrian are also trying to use it. As I see it they're a vehicle (it may not have an engine but it's still a form of transport) and shouldn't be doing this.
  • O I see - thanks for the clarification. I think @KarlLB understood what you meant!
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Ariel wrote: »
    I thought @Ariel meant cyclists who ignore pedestrians crossing the road at a panda crossing (or whatever they're called now!). and who ride through willy-nilly, possibly narrowly missing said pedestrians.

    If the crossing is controlled by lights, the cyclists are probably going through a red, anyway.

    I mean the ones who cycle across a zebra crossing to get from one side of the road to another, while you as a pedestrian are also trying to use it. As I see it they're a vehicle (it may not have an engine but it's still a form of transport) and shouldn't be doing this.

    They are vehicles, but they are not motor vehicles, and there are some differences in law as a result. Being able to use public rights of way (except footpaths), cycleways, canal towpaths and shared cycle/pedestrian infrastructure for example. And a little known one - not subject to speed limits (except in Royal Parks in London which have their own specific bylaws). The laws defining speeding offences specifically target motor vehicles.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    I do not believe that bicycles should be permitted on footpaths/pavements. pedestrians have nowhere else to walk and should be protected from any vehicles.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    rhubarb wrote: »
    I do not believe that bicycles should be permitted on footpaths/pavements. pedestrians have nowhere else to walk and should be protected from any vehicles.

    Well, they're not, except where specifically allowed by the designation of the pavement as shared infrastructure.

    I personally think this should only be done where there's sufficient pavement width to segregate the pedestrians from the cyclists but councils like to be able to say they've created X miles of cycling infrastructure when all they've done is splash some paint around. What they should be doing is creating actual infrastructure - which in most cases will be a protected on-road cycle lane.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    A rule widely ignored, at least round here.

    When I become PM there will be proper training, and a licensing scheme. I don't care if they don't want to wear helmets, but no lights, no riding.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    rhubarb wrote: »
    I do not believe that bicycles should be permitted on footpaths/pavements. pedestrians have nowhere else to walk and should be protected from any vehicles.

    I agree. It's very common here for cyclists to use the pavement, and I'm always tempted to say "that's a road - use it" whenever I have to get out of their way.

    I'd also add that, especially for someone with hearing issues, it's sometimes hard to tell the exact direction a sound (of a bell, for instance) is coming from, so you're not quite sure which way you need to move.
  • @Marsupial, they are required by law over here on the right hand side of Canada too. Many people are not aware if it though. Mine does get used often. It is also very common to say "On your left!" here too. We have a long boardwalk with a cycling lane beside it. It is popular with all sorts of walkers and scooters and roller blade users.
    My personal pet peeve is those walkers whose music is so loud that they don't hear me coming.
    And cyclists wearing ear pods with the volume way up - well, this isn't Hell so I won't say any more about them.
  • There is a certain stretch of road in Our Town where a wide footpath has been divided into cycle path/pedestrian path, with plenty of room for all, and clear markings to show which bit is which.

    All fine and dandy, but there's often simply not enough space to do this, more's the pity.
  • BTW, I've just remembered that's another stretch of segregated cycleway/pedestrian pathway some miles away to the east.

    It's on a wide grass verge alongside the main road, and (perhaps ironically) the verge was once the site of a reserved-track section of tramway...in those far-off days (they scrapped the trams in 1930), no doubt cyclists had to take pot luck with the traffic on the road, which even then (long before motorways) was beginning to get quite heavy at times.
  • We’ve managed to build both a boardwalk and a paved cycling (rollerblading etc.) path along the Toronto eastern and western beaches, which makes life much easier for everyone.
  • It would have been tricky to have had a shared use cycle path/tram track! Those grooves would have been treacherous.
  • One thing people have to learn about cycling in older parts of Toronto is how to avoid the active tram/streetcar system that we still have running on major streets. Getting your wheels caught in the tracks is a sure fire route to some kind of unpleasantness. (Generally the solution is to avoid streets with tracks, and if you have to cross them to make sure it’s as close as possible to a 90 degree angle.)
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited August 2023
    Hopefully the inferno won’t drown out the bells, this rant is moving downstairs - don’t forget to don your asbestos yfronts.

    Doublethink, Admin
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