Christianity and Naturism
Gallovidian
Shipmate
in Epiphanies
I wonder how many of my fellow Christians here would consider themselves naturists? Or have a leaning towards a clothes-free lifestyle?
I’m really interested in exploring the links between naturism and spirituality, especially from a Christian perspective. I have been a Christian for as long as I can remember, and am an active member of a local church. I have also been a naturist for many years, and have recently begun visiting a local naturist club, but for the most part these two threads have been pretty much separate. I’m increasingly drawn to the concept of ‘Forest Church’ – worshipping in nature, and experiencing God in wild places, connecting with creation and Creator - which seems to me in tune with the traditional naturist linking of nudity and nature. For me the obvious extension of that would be to worship in the great outdoors, without any clothes, which up until now I have only done on a very low key personal level, but would love to experience with a group of like-minded others.
I am a member of the Christian Naturist Fellowship, although I don't find that a particularly meaningful forum for me personally, so I’m working on setting up a group that better reflects my feelings and aspirations. The rules forbid me sharing details here, but if anyone is interested, message me and I’ll tell you more.
Meanwhile I’d be interested to hear your own ideas/experiences/hopes in this area. How compatible do you feel Christian faith and practice is with a clothes free lifestyle? What is your experience of acceptance - or otherwise - of naturism within churches?
I’m really interested in exploring the links between naturism and spirituality, especially from a Christian perspective. I have been a Christian for as long as I can remember, and am an active member of a local church. I have also been a naturist for many years, and have recently begun visiting a local naturist club, but for the most part these two threads have been pretty much separate. I’m increasingly drawn to the concept of ‘Forest Church’ – worshipping in nature, and experiencing God in wild places, connecting with creation and Creator - which seems to me in tune with the traditional naturist linking of nudity and nature. For me the obvious extension of that would be to worship in the great outdoors, without any clothes, which up until now I have only done on a very low key personal level, but would love to experience with a group of like-minded others.
I am a member of the Christian Naturist Fellowship, although I don't find that a particularly meaningful forum for me personally, so I’m working on setting up a group that better reflects my feelings and aspirations. The rules forbid me sharing details here, but if anyone is interested, message me and I’ll tell you more.
Meanwhile I’d be interested to hear your own ideas/experiences/hopes in this area. How compatible do you feel Christian faith and practice is with a clothes free lifestyle? What is your experience of acceptance - or otherwise - of naturism within churches?
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They had a somewhat 'fundamentalist' feel. Like standard conservative fundagelical US churches with all that entails only without any clothes on. Of course this being on the radio we had to take the reporter's word for that.
There was, as one would expect, considerable opposition from other conservative churches including attempts to actively proselytise against it and get the participants to return to clothed and buttoned-up settings.
A serious question.
Why 'Christian naturism'?
Why not 'naturism' in general?
If I wanted to join an archaeological society, say, I'd join an archaeological society. I wouldn't go looking for a specifically Christian one, unless I were a specialist in 'biblical archaeology' and saw that as important to my faith.
If I wanted to wander around in the nude I'd go to a naturist beach or camp or something. Why would a Christian one be any different to any other kind of naturist group?
I was talking to a clergyperson recently about this sort of thing- not naturism - but the apparent 'need' many Christians appear to have for there to be a 'Christian' version of whatever they happen to be interested in.
Rather than the local 'book group' it has to be a 'Christian book group.' Art is OK as long as you are a 'Christian artist'. That sort of thing.
Sorry, it's not for me to determine how people worship and what they do in their spare time. But I really don't understand why someone can't be a 'naturist' who happens to be a Christian, if they find no incompatibility between that and their faith without expecting there to be a group or church that caters for that.
Or perhaps I'm missing something?
You dress appropriate to the weather, and probably only take your clothes off in front of the fire at home... unless you're a real die-hard tough guy (not me!)
I think the fundamental thing to understand is that - for many of us at least - naturism is not just a hobby that we do in our spare time, alongside a myriad other things. Any more than Christianity is, or our sexuality. You don't stop being a Christian because you have gone to the theatre or out for a walk. You don't stop being gay (or straight) when you leave your own home (tho that opens up a whole other field of discussion!). And you don't stop being a naturist when you leave the beach or the club, or because you have gone to church. You may (almost certainly do!) put on clothes to fit in and avoid offending anyone, but in your heart you still feel the same about nudity; it is a lifestyle and a philosophy, not just something you do to fill in a spare hour or two. So it is only natural to want to be able to do other things that are important to you naked - so to be able to worship naked alongside other naked believers is quite a significant thing, bringing together two very significant, motivating and empowering parts of your life into a unified whole.
As a gay man, I spent years hiding my sexuality when I went to church - leading a double life in many ways - and feel so much better for having reached a point and found a church community where I can just be myself. Although this is not quite the same as having a 'gay church' (I've never been one for 'gay pubs and clubs', though I can see the appeal), I feel a bit the same about being a naturist - it is an important part of who I am, and I would like to be able to worship freely with others who feel the same; that is unlikely to ever be possible in a mainstream church, so some kind of 'special provision' is needed. Not in exclusive way, and not to replace conventional church, but as a way of expressing the fullness of who we as naturists are in a natural and affirming way.
You make good points - although most genuine naturist groups are definitely not swingers clubs, there are certainly exhibitionists around who give naturism a bad name.
Art and other creative activities are a good case in point of where one's beliefs may be expressed quite profoundly through the creative process, and to share with others on a similar path would be helpful - in a way that playing golf or creating model railways will never parallel; a golfer who is a Christian plays the game no differently from a Hindu or atheist golfer! As I said before, being a naturist does affect the whole of one's life, as does being a Christian, and to bring the two streams together is a strong yearning for many people, and opens up potential for transforming how both are expressed.
Since when have Christian organisations been less prone to lasciviousness than secular ones?
And no, I don't believe that naturists are exhibitionists or more prone to lasciviousness than those who don't hang around naked with other people.
I can see what you're saying about shared interests in art or literature having a faith dimension at times. Fine.
I don't know about you, though, but I have come across evangelical subcultures where people don't seem to get involved with anything outside of work that doesn't have a Christian label attached to it.
We've had these sort of discussions before.
'I'm a Goth. I want to worship alongside other Goths.'
I know 'when in Rome' and so on but I can't imagine being allowed to worship with a bunch of Christian naturists unless I was prepared to take my kit off. Would I be allowed to keep them on? I doubt it.
I don't know how far we can take things with 'niche' churches. There are Cowboy Churches and Elvis Churches. There's a 'non-canonical' Orthodox church in the US that has Coltrane as a Saint and uses his music in their liturgy.
And we are all sadly divided on race, gender and socio-economic lines.
I find it hard to relate to poor Eastern European migrants who speak little English. Does that mean I should attend a church that is predominantly university educated white middle-class?
Where do we stop? Trainspotter Churches? Batman Churches? Sealed Knot 17th century Re-enactment Churches led by Laudians or Puritans?
Ok, I'm being a bit provocative and facetious but ...
Yes, you would. The Christian Naturist Fellowship currently holds occasional 'conventions' at a couple of naturist clubs around England, and they make a point of calling them 'clothing optional' and making it clear people can wear as little (or as much) as they are comfortable with. Okay, being in a naturist club, the likelihood is most people would choose to be nude - altho it is not uncommon for one half of a couple to prefer to retain some clothes. The 'Naked Church' group I'm launching describes itself as a 'clothing optional space' - when we start zoom meetings people will be under no obligation to be naked and the same if/when we start having in-person services.
By all means have the occasional special service at a convention or whatever - I suspect Whovians and Trekkies may already do so,; certainly services at music festivals, reflecting particular styles of music, are quite common, and I've heard of services at major sporting events etc.. But, as I've already explained, naturism is more than just a hobby - if it is my preferred lifestyle to be naked, and I feel that this helps me connect to both creation and Creator, then it makes sense to have opportunities to fellowship with others who feel similarly. After all - to be a little facetious myself - are not our existing denominations not just some kind of tribal interest group? The smells-and-bells fans over here, the happy-clappies over there, the silent women in hats group somewhere else....!?!
Didn't the Ship used to have its own church services for a short while? Presumably, that would have appealed to people who find this website an interesting pastime.
Sure, since the Reformation there's been a proliferation of worship choices and styles. Even the RCs will have people choosing this, that or the other parish over one just down the road.
Among the Orthodox - who love to crow 'We haven't had a Reformation folks!' - the divisions are generally on language or ethnic lines but in the jurisdictional chaos in Western countries - or Westernised countries - you will find personal preferences coming into the equation.
'I'm with Antioch ...' 'I'm with Thyatira ...' 'I'm with Moscow ...'
We're with The Woolwich.
Remember that?
We like to think that liberal/conservative distinctions don't apply but some pariahes are seen as more liberal or more conservative than others.
I don't know what we can do about tribalism but it does seem to be that adding even more options to the equation is only hoping to make things worse.
But what do I know?
In naturism, I sense a variety of possible longings. I wonder if any of these are part of your desire for naturist church.
- a recognition of the inherent beauty and wonder of our created bodies, just as they are
- perhaps something about the pre-snake incident in Genesis
- a desire for union with God and one another that is less self-protective than we often are
Maybe these are all projections, though?
I remember in my early 20s having an overwhelming mystical experience of wanting to make love to the earth. I know that can sound weird and not Christian to many people, but it was a profound experience of the presence of the eternal God in the very dust of the ground.
Just where my mind and heart go with your OP, for whatever it's worth.
Personally, I have always felt a degree of connection with the divine when out in nature, and find this is heightened when I am myself naked - more in touch with my senses and in tune with my surroundings. As I have spent more time in the company of other naturists, I also feel a greater sense of connectedness with them - removing clothes seems to help lower the barriers and pretences we all tend to adopt in everyday life. I feel that could also be true of our corporate relating to God were we to do so au naturel.
I've pondered a lot in recent days on the tern 'nakedness' both in general, and specifically as it is used in the Bible, and have come to the conclusion it embraces a lot more than just physical nudity - vulnerability, lack of false coverings/defensiveness, openness/transparency, even innocence. All of which are desirable in our worship and encounters with the divine.
So my aspirations for the group I'm working on are not just for a 'normal' church experience without the clothes, but for a realisation of a more 'naked' church experience in itself - simple, pared back, uncluttered and open to God and one another.
On the one hand I have, very occasionally, found 'skinny dipping' to be a lovely experience and could enjoy that with a couple of like-minded friends. And feeling the warmth of the sun on my skin whilst wearing nothing can be pleasurable -if one has suitable secluded spot. But I have no desire to be naked with other people just for the sake of nakedness as it were. And I don't know if naturist gatherings include children -because I think that would be inappropriate for various reasons including that children can't give valid consent for being naked in such a situation.
I wonder also about individual differences in sensory experience. At the extreme ends of sensory experience where people would be described as having sensory integration problems: you get folk who always want to be firmly wrapped and enjoy weighted blankets etc and those who prefer to remove their clothes at any opportunity. I wonder if naturists have a different sensory profile, not as different from most people’s as to get labelled by healthcare but sufficient to make the experience more pleasant for them than it might be for others.
I will note, however, that I have it on good authority that lists of Anglo-Saxon penances for sexual sins included some for getting it on with a tree. My informant wondered whether that would be sufficiently hazardous in and of itself to obviate the need for penance ...
I do also note, of course, that erotic or romantic language does occur in mystic writings of various kinds. In religious verse too and Donna's been cited on another thread in that regard.
Moving swiftly on, I can see a place for nakedness - or at least rough or inadequate clothing - in a 'prophetic' sense. John The Baptist didn't wear a Saville Row suit.
I'm sure some of the 'Holy Fools' in the Orthodox tradition weren't the best dressed man or woman about town either and there are stories of some of them going about naked to make a point.
St Francis of Assisi famously disrobed at one stage. It happens in the film 'Brother Son and Sister Moon.'
There are depictions of a small 17th century naturist sect called 'The Adamites' during the Commonwealth period in England. HIstorians aren't sure whether there were ever that many of them or whether they even existed at all but were the products of an over-active Interregnum imagination.
Whatever the case nakedness doesn't have to be associated with prurience or sniggering adolescent humour.
For myself though, unless someone's a medic or an undertaker or unless I were to be in a long-term relationship again, I'd prefer to keep my kit on thank you very much.
Drat that predictive text!
'Whoah Donna ...'
I have seen that very scenario used in low-brow erotic fiction. And, while I am someone who generally dislikes the great outdoors, I know enough about trees and what can live in and on them to agree that would indeed be a hazardous pastime to pursue.
Interestingly, in the film of The Last Temptation Of Christ, the members of John's sect are portrayed as dancing about naked in the desert. When Jesus arrives to he baptized, however, they cover themselves up, presumably because they sense themselves to be in the presence of the Divine.
Not sure how historically accurate that portrayal of the sect was. Or what it might indicate about Schraeder's or maybe(*) Kazantzakis' view of their theology.
(*) I really need to read that book so I'll no longer have to caveat my descriptions of the film with "I don't know if this is in the book or not."
All the points about certain groups of people not being suited to (social) nudity... fair enough, nobody was suggesting it was compulsory! Even among naturists, its quite normal to wear clothes for protection from the elements or from potentially hazardous tasks. It's about only wearing clothes when you need to, not never wearing them! It's generally accepted that menstruation or lactation probably make some form of clothing advisable/desirable/appropriate. Protecting furnishings etc. is the reason most naturists never go anywhere without a towel!
Finally (for now), why is the naked body not appropriate for children? There are reputable studies which suggest that children who grow up in homes where nudity is accepted (not necessarily naturist homes, just where parents are open about these things) grow up better adjusted in many ways than their peers who are constantly made to think certain parts of their bodies are somehow shameful or 'naughty'. By being prudish about these things, are we not in a way sexualising our kids - 'Put that away dear, it's rude.... oh don't look at that disgusting man over there!'? I suspect far more sexual abuse takes place in 'respectable' church circles than in naturist groups!
An anecdote to close: a naturist friend of mine was recently walking without clothes in a relatively quiet part of the countryside, when a couple with two young children emerged from the trees just in front of him. Normally, had he seen them coming, he would have put on some shorts to avoid any misunderstandings or embarrassment, but when he reached to put them on, the mother said 'Don't bother on our account', and they made polite conversation for a few minutes, and the family ended up walking along with him and chatting for another mile of so. The mother matter of factly explained to the children that the man was a 'naturist' and he liked to do stuff without wearing clothes... they accepted this and just carried on as normal. Not traumatised at all, and probably with a far healthier attitude to the human body than if mum and dad had made a big fuss, covered the kids eyes and threatened to call the police!
It's not something I've ever gone back to, apart from accidentally stumbling into a Dutch naturist area as I hadn't twigged what the signs said, but I do recall that it's considerably less embarrassing taking a "When in Rome" approach than being the only one with your keks on.
Yes, it’s a good attitude in my view.
I remember, when my eldest son was six, we were on Lanzarote and I commented “there are a lot of Germans here”. We happened to be passing a group of nudists - not a connection I intended to make, but my son called nude people ‘Germans’ for ages!
Maybe that’s why he lives there now! 😆
An excellent point. Got me thinking.
I think things have moved on a bit since the Naked Rambler rose to notoriety - but there are definitely cases where individual police officers do not fully understand the law and try to use public order legislation to deal with situations they find hard to handle. However, certainly in England, College of Policing guidelines are pretty clear, that if all someone is doing is being naked, they are not breaking the law.
To be fair though, there are some folk out there who make it their mission in life to push the boundaries and provoke confrontation, hoping to make non-sexual nudity in public places more commonly accepted. I'm not sure there are that many naturists who would feel the need to walk naked down a busy High Street, or walk into their local pub for a pint without a stitch of clothing (although I can see the appeal of the latter in some situations, and know, at third hand, of several 'locals' where this has become completely normal). But being able to walk naked in a quiet part of the forest, or bathe naked on a quiet beach is something I think we would all enjoy without any need for it to cause stress or alarm to anyone.
Quite. A jockstrap as well surely?
Welcome to the ship @Thomas Rowans . Do introduce yourself in All Saints.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/nudity-public-guidance-handling-cases-naturism
In 1972 my parents and I unintentionally found ourselves on a naturist beach in Devon, decided to join in and soon afterwards became members of a club near home in Yorkshire. It suited my late father, who felt more accepted there than in broader society back then, as a seriously disabled person. Their private swimming sessions at a local baths especially. Eventually I concluded that naturism lacked a strong enough raison d’etre to justify the time needed to be a member. I suspect that many have reached the same conclusion and fallen away. Time-hungry hobbies such being an active member of a cricket club have suffered in the same way.
Not long ago I looked at the old club in Yorkshire on Google Earth – not to be lewd, but just from curiosity. The facilities seem to be of a much lower standard now – less good than a typical touring caravan site, for example. I’ve also looked up the four or five naturist clubs in other parts of England we’d visited on holiday. Only one survives. Two of the others are now glorified caravan sites serving the mainstream ‘textile people’ market, and two others have been redeveloped for other uses.
It is perhaps more than 30 years since I've heard anyone in my circles of 'textile' acquaintance mentioning involvement in naturism. In contrast, I heard it a number of times in the 1970s and 1980s amongst 'textiles'.
A spiritual element? I never noticed one, although we’re talking about 42-52 years ago coinciding with the period of my life with little church involvement. I recall a few members mentioning their church membership – generally of more progressive denominations. I do not recall anyone being a member of more hardline evangelical churches such as the one of which I’m now a members – although as one of its more liberal members. In fact I think people would be shocked if I mentioned it. That’s a thought – maybe I should resolve to mention it in passing at some point and observe the reactions..….
Naturism does, historically, have a strong affinity with nature and the environment. Certainly a lot of non-religious naturists I speak to talk of experiencing a sense of heightened connection with nature and the universe which seems to me to be quasi-spiritual.
I regarded naturism also as deeply egalitarian, with little boasting or materialism. A small child or a 20 year old van driver could address a 60 year old bank manager or lawyer by their first name, long before it was acceptable elsewhere. There was a deep mutual trust and acceptance amongst members. Admittedly with a less profound basis than Christianity, but sharing some of its characteristics.