The end of Mark (not for the first time)

BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
edited March 26 in Kerygmania
In the Purgatory thread on textual criticism @KoF posted
the end (or lack of) of Mark is important if, as many argue, it is a source used to write the other gospels.
As I understand it, there are three possibilities
  • the gospel ended at Mark 16.8
  • one of the endings printed in most English bibles is correct
  • there is a (probably unrecoverable) lost ending.
Obviously, if ever found, the ‘real’ ending of Mark would be of great interest, though it might not add to the information we already have. But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

Comments

  • KoFKoF Shipmate
    For the sake of discussion, let's think about Mark a) being the oldest gospel which the others used as a source and b) having an ending which didn't discuss the resurrection.
    BroJames wrote: »
    But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

    Well, in the scenario I've suggested above it certainly seems relevant: the other gospels must have added some other source for the resurrection story.
  • The ending doesn't discuss the resurrection, but that doesn't mean it's not important to the story. Within the framework of the gospel, the Markan community the gospel was addressed to was living the post-resurrection time. Mark's gospel is very intensely concerned with the life of discipleship, and there's an argument to be made that Mark understands that life of discipleship to be one of following the way of the cross. So the gospel is overall more concerned with showing what that life and way is, which is carried out because of the resurrection, sure but that's not the primary emphasis.

    The other gospels weren't just wholly copying Mark, of course. They had recourse to various Jesus stories floating around--perhaps these were compiled into the mythical Q document, but I (as is obvious) don't put much stock in that. If Matthew and Luke had recourse to an oral tradition and, perhaps, some participant accounts or the accounts of those who knew the participants, then you have the raw materials for the endings. John is different, since that gospel was more of a group project, especially the ending.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    KoF wrote: »
    For the sake of discussion, let's think about Mark a) being the oldest gospel which the others used as a source and b) having an ending which didn't discuss the resurrection.
    BroJames wrote: »
    But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

    Well, in the scenario I've suggested above it certainly seems relevant: the other gospels must have added some other source for the resurrection story.
    I’m sure they did have other sources, hence, e.g., the nativity narratives. Of course we don’t know whether they also had an original Markan source as well.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    As I understand it, there are three possibilities
    • the gospel ended at Mark 16.8
    • one of the endings printed in most English bibles is correct
    • there is a (probably unrecoverable) lost ending.

    There's a fourth possibility, that we have the ending of Mark incorporated as the ending of either Matthew or Luke, which we know include a lot of Markan material. Other, less serious possibilities include:
    • Jesus meets two disciples on the road to Emmaus but they do not recognize him. They arrive at an inn and sit down to break bread together. Journey’s “Don’t Stop Believing” starts to play, then abruptly stops as the screen goes black for seven minutes.
      -
    • Tom Sawyer arrives and hijinks ensue, mostly at Jim’s expense, which seems like a violation of everything we’d previously read.
      -
    • The first 13 chapters of Mark are presented out of order, after which the rest of the Gospel is abruptly canceled by the Fox network.
      -
    • A terse message informs readers that the Kickstarter campaign for a crowd-sourced 17th chapter failed to meet its goal.
      -
    • After Jesus’ crucifixion and burial, Mark introduces two new disciples, played by Robert Patrick and Annabeth Gish.
      -
    • “… e dure questo pistolenza fino a …“
      -
    • Mary Magdalene awakens and hears the shower running in the other room. It’s Jesus. She realizes the past three years were all a dream.
      -
    • Instead of continuing the story of Jesus and his followers, Mark waits 20 years, then presents a trilogy of disappointing prequels focusing on the childhood and adolescence of Judas Iscariot.
      -
    • “How’s Annie? How’s Annie?
    BroJames wrote: »
    But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

    Endings are very significant. It's been observed that we don't know what kind of story we're reading until we know how it ends. I'm reminded of the way Victorians would re-write various plays to give them happy endings. (Romeo and Juliet and Medea are two examples that spring to mind.) Change the ending and you've changed the message.

    I should point out that if we assume the Gospel of Mark ends with only the first eight verses of chapter 16 this would be consistent with the endings of a lot of Greek tragedies: a divine pronouncement which often left the characters "trembling and bewildered" and seen as a legitimate end-point of the story.
  • KoF wrote: »
    For the sake of discussion, let's think about Mark a) being the oldest gospel which the others used as a source and b) having an ending which didn't discuss the resurrection.
    BroJames wrote: »
    But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

    Well, in the scenario I've suggested above it certainly seems relevant: the other gospels must have added some other source for the resurrection story.

    Just a quick note--

    In the accepted end of Mark verses, there is in fact a statement of the resurrection. It just isn't as full as in the other Gospels, which is putting it mildly. Here it is:
    5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6 And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    KoF wrote: »
    For the sake of discussion, let's think about Mark a) being the oldest gospel which the others used as a source and b) having an ending which didn't discuss the resurrection.
    BroJames wrote: »
    But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

    Well, in the scenario I've suggested above it certainly seems relevant: the other gospels must have added some other source for the resurrection story.

    Just a quick note--

    In the accepted end of Mark verses, there is in fact a statement of the resurrection. It just isn't as full as in the other Gospels, which is putting it mildly. Here it is:
    5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6 And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”

    Verse 8 is a strange one as it implies that they didn't tell any man about it, even though verse 7 says that they were instructed to do so.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    KoF wrote: »
    For the sake of discussion, let's think about Mark a) being the oldest gospel which the others used as a source and b) having an ending which didn't discuss the resurrection.
    BroJames wrote: »
    But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

    Well, in the scenario I've suggested above it certainly seems relevant: the other gospels must have added some other source for the resurrection story.

    Just a quick note--

    In the accepted end of Mark verses, there is in fact a statement of the resurrection. It just isn't as full as in the other Gospels, which is putting it mildly. Here it is:
    5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6 And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”

    Verse 8 is a strange one as it implies that they didn't tell any man about it, even though verse 7 says that they were instructed to do so.

    Not that strange. In my life I think I've had more instances of people failing to pass on a message than of their actually passing it on.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    KoF wrote: »
    For the sake of discussion, let's think about Mark a) being the oldest gospel which the others used as a source and b) having an ending which didn't discuss the resurrection.
    BroJames wrote: »
    But how significant, really, is the uncertainty about the ending?

    Well, in the scenario I've suggested above it certainly seems relevant: the other gospels must have added some other source for the resurrection story.

    Just a quick note--

    In the accepted end of Mark verses, there is in fact a statement of the resurrection. It just isn't as full as in the other Gospels, which is putting it mildly. Here it is:
    5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. 6 And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.”

    Verse 8 is a strange one as it implies that they didn't tell any man about it, even though verse 7 says that they were instructed to do so.

    Not that strange. In my life I think I've had more instances of people failing to pass on a message than of their actually passing it on.

    That's not been my experience.

    If they had not passed it on, we would not be discussing it

  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    The main bit of Mark also hints pretty firmly at something resurrection like (it could be a setup for a twist or other narrative effect)
    That doesn't stop it being a puzzle.

    Telford's post reminds me of the start of Jonah, "go tell the Assyrians, but Jonah did not tell anyone" (paraphrase for effect).
  • I can't help wondering if it means merely "They didn't run through Jerusalem screaming out the news, as you might expect them to do"--though I'm so impaired right now from a sleepless night and a biopsy I probably shouldn't be posting. Bye!
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Verse 7 has the women instructed to tell the disciples, and verse 8 says they were scared out of their wits and decided not to tell anybody. Which seems reasonable, under the circumstances

    But, of course, they must have told somebody or else Mark couldn't have written it down. This is where one of the "extended endings" fits rather nicely, because it then states (paraphrase) "So then Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and told her: 'No, seriously, I really do want you to tell them.' And then she did. And she wasn't believed. And then Jesus appeared to two disciples who were booking out of town, and they went back and reported it. And they weren't believed, either. And then Jesus appeared to the whole group and say 'Oh, for My sake, I can't keep sending people to you! Believe!'"

    I am interested by @Crœsos comment that a lot of Greek tragedies have abrupt endings with the main characters trembling in fright. So maybe verse 8 was meant to be the end--even though it would then end on the awkward point @Telford mentions: stating that they didn't tell anybody---when, obviously, they must have. It does not feel like a proper end, even accepting @Thomas Rowans ' argument that the Resurrection itself was not a primary focus for Mark.
  • That the women don't tell anyone even though they are specifically commanded to do so just demonstrates them as being incompetent; that's perfectly in keeping with Mark's depiction of all the disciples. They're pretty much always messing up in his telling. Morna Hooker, a great Biblical scholar, has a little book about endings in the gospels and she thinks it's perfectly in keeping with Mark's general tenor. Most scholars are, these days, given there's been a real explosion in Markan studies since the 90s.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    It has been suggested that the last word of Mark is not an idiomatic way to end a sentence in Greek and that therefore there must be some text missing.
    Whether that's true I don't know, and Mark's Greek is notoriously rough.
  • Oh right, the final 'gar.' I'm familiar with some of that thinking. Ending a sentence with 'gar' is exceedingly rare, but not unheard of. In keeping with the tragic reading of Mark, Sophocles ends a sentence with 'gar' in one of his plays, though I don't remember which. I think that argument has some merit, but I could construct a counter theory where the final
    'gar' is in keeping with the disorienting way the narrative arc ends overall. It's a neat idea.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    There is an inside joke to the way Mark ends, in my mind. Throughout Mark, whenever Jesus does a miracle, he tells most all the recipients not to tell anyone, and yet they can't resist sharing what they experienced. The one exception is with the man how was known as Legion. Yet, her the young man--whoever he is--tells the women to go tell the disciples that Jesus is waiting for them in Galilee.

    But they fled and did not tell anyone.

    A scenario: when the women return to Jerusalem, they likely looked like they had seen a ghost--I know I would. The disciples who had stayed behind take notice at how strange the women were acting. They ask what happened? At first there is silence, but after persistent questioning, one of the women fess-up. And the rest is history.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Some years ago there was a documentary on tv about a sect who who obsessed by verse 18 which deals with picking up snakes with bare hands and drinking poison. A lot of them got rather ill.
  • questioningquestioning Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    There is an inside joke to the way Mark ends, in my mind. Throughout Mark, whenever Jesus does a miracle, he tells most all the recipients not to tell anyone, and yet they can't resist sharing what they experienced. The one exception is with the man how was known as Legion. Yet, her the young man--whoever he is--tells the women to go tell the disciples that Jesus is waiting for them in Galilee.

    But they fled and did not tell anyone.

    A scenario: when the women return to Jerusalem, they likely looked like they had seen a ghost--I know I would. The disciples who had stayed behind take notice at how strange the women were acting. They ask what happened? At first there is silence, but after persistent questioning, one of the women fess-up. And the rest is history.

    I love this! I feel really silly for not having considered the ending of Mark in light of the Messianic Secret theme of that gospel. I'll have to go away and play with that idea. Thanks!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    There is an inside joke to the way Mark ends, in my mind. Throughout Mark, whenever Jesus does a miracle, he tells most all the recipients not to tell anyone, and yet they can't resist sharing what they experienced. The one exception is with the man how was known as Legion. Yet, her the young man--whoever he is--tells the women to go tell the disciples that Jesus is waiting for them in Galilee.

    But they fled and did not tell anyone.

    A scenario: when the women return to Jerusalem, they likely looked like they had seen a ghost--I know I would. The disciples who had stayed behind take notice at how strange the women were acting. They ask what happened? At first there is silence, but after persistent questioning, one of the women fess-up. And the rest is history.

    I love this! I feel really silly for not having considered the ending of Mark in light of the Messianic Secret theme of that gospel. I'll have to go away and play with that idea. Thanks!

    @questioning I am taking a preliminary look at the gospel for next week. It contains two parables: the seeds planted in the ground and the mustard seed. What initially strikes me about the mustard seed story is how invasive the plant is, not easy to be manipulated. I think the ending of Mark ties into the story because no matter that the women kept silence about the empty tomb, the story gets out and eventually spreads. Yes, there is more to it, but I find it enlightening how Mark ties the two stories together.
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